What Happened to Youtube Atheism? (feat.
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- čas přidán 27. 06. 2024
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Suris on Religion as a Mental Illness: • Is Religion a Mental I...
Atheist Vikings: • Were There Atheist Vik...
Links to some discussed:
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music by Karl Casey @ White Bat Audio
This was a fun conversation! I remember when it was 2 minutes long!
For 2 hours.
I'm sure this gets said fairly often but seeing the old non-gender bent (or is it the bent one now?) I think it would be cool to have a sexy male v-tuber avatar.
It did make me think how it would be fun if you’d have that old-style avatar made into a VTube avatar. Not an anime-style version of it, just in that style, for you to use once in a while
That last statement you made is why I enjoy your content even though I don't always agree with your stance.
Dude has become brainwashed by politics
@@Eersian I’m curious what you even mean by that
I keep trying to think of a pun for atheists but nothing comes to mind, nothing believable anyway.
Cringe my dude. Love it.
👏👏👏
😂
@James Henry Smith which one?
@@alananimus9145 the one with tentacles
I’m not sure what I said to Suris originally, but you clarified my position well, Ocean. Good talk, guys! I’m right there with you on the points made.
Both Ocean and Suris tend to have good positions and arguments. The empathy point is good, and the occasional delightful Snark not withstanding, Ocean does tend to put himself in the shoes of the people he's talking about well... And argues from that.
I kept not being sure if Drew was GMS or someone else I hadn't heard of.
FWIW, it was stumbling upon Genetically Modified Skeptic videos - and the earnest, compassionate, well-spoken nature of them - that started my wife and I (in our thirties) down the path of leaving very harmful fundamentalist Christian beliefs that we’d held since childhood. I’ll always be grateful for that.
Also, the episode of Antibot where both reacted to the “adult toy” MLM was adorable.
@@diamondflaw I somehow have missed that particular video, but I love Antibots content. I would be Antibots and GMS's friends if I met them in real life (assuming they wanted to be my friend)
I think "Rationality Rules", "CosmicSkeptic", and "Genetically Modified Skeptic" already abandon content that react to other content. Majority of their content is original content. "Belief it or not" channel also highlight abusive and unhealthy practice in religious community. They also give solution to those who trapped in abusive religious practice.
I really enjoy “belief it or not” and “Genetically Modified Skeptic.” I feel like both of them make pretty great content that addresses real issues or interesting facts about Christianity.
@@nettiea.staton8135 GMS / Drew is very much good people.
Drew apearently goes more against MLM and telling stories that fit and i love the talking bout how weird christian sects were mainstreamed. Pretty sure he is.
And hannah and jake did too i think, and granted she makes fun of cults and people, but to be fair, a lot need help or are grifter or worse, and flat earther. I know its not specific atheist, but it was. Also its educative fun and really makes me feel bad for people in cults.
And cosmic sceptic, yeah, he killed dawkins as hero i guess and ok i dont watch him that much. I think he did, and rr.
Cosmic skeptic seems to have gone more into morality than just atheism.
@James Henry Smith which one?
I like the point Ocean made about atheist creators needing to stand FOR something without having to depend on just responding or attacking other positions.
An atheist would say they are standing for something, truth/reality.
When one of those positions is systematically being forced into government, laws are being passed based on beliefs of that one position you damn right you attack it.
True, thats why the split between anti sjw and progressive happened, if they rely on it. It just attracts the people going anti sjw , or people exploiting that.
Not people cant be edgy but make sure its not all and specify.
the majority of the atheist community is inherently FOR the separation of church and state. unfortunately that usually means being reactive in order to be proactive, and you have to play the political chess game.
Unfortunately this results in trolls and troglodytes who enjoy the game more than the cause from both camps. However, you also have a good chunk of debaters who, to borrow a little from Keltoi, are still unpacking their jesus-baggage and are pissed off and/or traumatized by their religious backgrounds.
My state regularly tries to codify christianity as the state religion every few years, more so after Trump won in 2016. There's usually not a pagan group who steps up to push back when this happens, so the first lines of defense are the ACLU, FFRF, or the Satanic Temple. 🤷♀️ I know we have pagan groups here, but it sucks that they aren't more involved on this front to the same degree as they are with environmental issues.
I think the point was more along the lines of expounding on the positive aspects of being an atheist (assuming there are any). Like, make the sale here. How would embracing atheism as a life philosophy improve my sense of well-being, deepen or strengthen meaningful relationships? If I'm not interested in just being angrily oppositional to pushy monotheists, what else is there on Team Atheist that would be a positive draw?
I think the issue with a lot of atheist content is that theres only so many ways to say: proove your beliefs before you base your morally questionable actions on them or base your actions on something else. a lot of atheists just want hard theists to say: we might be wrong, let's explore a morality that gives room for both our beliefs and being wrong about them.
@James Henry Smith The issue is that you give as much prooves as I have bitches; none.
@James Henry Smith Which god? There are many. The Javhe of the new testament demonstrably does not exist. At least not in the way it is described. I could buy the petty, spiteful, jealous and cruel god of the old testament seems plausible enough given the evidence available. The state of this world makes the concepts of a god that's good and a god that's omnipotent mutually exclusive. I'm not denying the existence of the christian god, just the christian description of it.
Can't agree with you more. Hell, I get "woo" as hell in terms of my eclectic practices. I work with all sorts of gods and 🔐 more, but, even with that, where my PGE is absolutely sky high, I'm still much more in line with atheist as one can get.
The reason I can harmonize that seeming paradox is because I learned morals and ethics in spite of spirituality and religion. I learned that from introspection and acknowledging when my conscience told me "okay, that's messed up, wtf?"
Because of that I get along a whole lot more with non "hard-line" atheists than I do with religious types. Hell, I'll even say that I get along a lot better with them than polytheists too.
@@NIHIL_EGO Agreed.
Yeah, my ethics and morality has nothing to do with what spiritual viewpoint I have. I have a personal connection with Oden and Loke and they are awesome in so many ways, but I don't know if they would be the best source of morality for me. I feel that the ability to adhere to an external locus of morality is not a positive trait at all.
Hey, I am a highly religious Christian. Just wanted to preface that before I say I really enjoy all of your content. I found it through looking up different cultures about Scandinavians in Norse mythology. But I have always found it interesting that your takes are very unique. I’ve always been interested in other cultures, religions and beliefs. And a lot of what you talk about fascinates me. Keep up the good work. Would love to see some of your debate videos!
Glad you're checking things out. It's cool that there's Christians checking stuff out over here. It can only make you a more perceptive Christian, y'know?
@@OceanKeltoi yes! How can us Christians be the counterculture we are supposed to be if we do not know the cultures to counter? Including our own!
Mr. Skydaddy, I'll be straight up with you. If you can't be respectful to the other people in this comment section, I'm just gonna hide you from channel and then no one will see nor care about your comments as you scream unknowingly into the void.
@@OceanKeltoi 🤣
@@OceanKeltoi Hey when you have no credible argument, just hide by banning those that trigger you. Weak.
The moment you said 2006 I went oh well that was when Dawkins published The God Delusion..
And 2012 was about the time most of the people loudly yelling "religion is delusional" were either A: done with university, B: done with highschool and going into university or C: realising they were quoting dawkins too much and now have no friends left.
A few things were often-handedly mentioned in this video are things that weren’t really addressed, but bother me. Foremost, and most obvious (to me) is the sort of insistence of setting the debate as atheism vs Christianity. While of course they must necessarily be opposed, because Christianity is necessarily theistic, it often feels as though members of the atheist community see Christianity as sufficiently analogous to theism in general - leading to the generally fallacious attitude of “Christianity wrong, therefore atheism”. Of course sometimes they will address polytheists or pantheists as well, but even then it seems to be focused on specific constructions that include theistic beliefs rather than theism itself.
And this brings me to the second thing that bothers me - when not atheism versus Christianity, the debate is more generically staged as atheism versus religion - and while perhaps less obvious, this is even more problematic. Certainly someone can be atheistic as well as anti-religion, but unlike with Christianity the metaphysics are not necessarily in opposition. It often seems that religion itself is viewed as an abstracted form of Christianity, incorrectly assumed to be necessarily theistic among other things.
Ocean, you speak often of latent Christianity, and I feel like this is one of the most egregious examples of it - how we subconsciously allow a Christian worldview to define the entire conversation on theism and religion, leading atheists (and others) into pigeonholing even themselves as needing to take certain positions which are in fact not a necessary consequence of an atheistic metaphysics.
I’ve often had this frustration with atheists. Their communities are very much couched in opposition to not only Christianity, but a particular form of it. They will often essentialize all of religion as that form of Evangelical Christianity and then rant about the evils of religion.
I think we touched on that a bit, but definitely could have gone into it more. But this was an impromptu conversation that I decided to upload so we didnt get as comprehensive on the subject as I would have liked. Definitely am going to make more content around this though.
Tbf atheism is defined by the surrounding religion. It's an example of identity rooted in defiance. Christianity is the most common topic because it's the most familiar and influencial religion in Western world. Because of that it's the religion atheists are usually against. If polytheism won the war of souls we would have more polytheistic atheists
Idk about you but in my country rodzimowiercy (Polish equivalent of theistic pagans) don't even have the political power to enforce harmful laws. Catholics tho... Catholics pushed me into anti theism
Which brings us to the topic of political atheism. Atheism focused less on spreading the good word of no gods and more on protecting everyone from religious persecution. Even members of other religions
I am confused. Atheists wouldn’t exist if people didn’t make up their reality and world view based on the exact same errors and wishful thinking as Christians. Why do you think Christians are the main focus? Because they are all up into controlling everything and everyone. They are the power. Just because you make up multiple Gods instead, there would still be people who focused on that and were atheists against that. Do you just use religion to mean rituals? I mean people can do whatever dumb shit they want with their time, if people want to spin around in three circles and pretend they are connecting to a higher power, ok whatever. Keep your lunacy to yourself. There is literally no way any one who actually sits down and Lola at actual reality; would just replace one god with many and pretend that is different.
Literally bunch of delusional people with wishful thinking syndrome.
Something about this conversation was deeply depressing to me: the utter irrelevance of philosophy of religion to the atheist community. This was alluded to at 24:39. Up until that point, I was slightly annoyed at how philosophy of religion atheists were being ignored, but I came to realize that we were being ignored for a reason. We have basically no influence over the atheist community. Most of the people you mentioned would rather continue prattling on about the same five things they've been saying for over a decade and "muh sky daddy" than grow in any discernible way. There's more to it than philrel, and I'm not sure what it is, but atheism can do a lot better than what's being done now. To quote David Bentley Hart, "Something splendid and irreplaceable has taken leave of our culture-some great moral and intellectual capacity that once inspired the more heroic expressions of belief and unbelief alike. Skepticism and atheism are, at least in their highest manifestations, noble, precious, and even necessary traditions..."
"Splendid and irreplaceable" is up for debate. As I see it, you don't mourn cancer after it's been excised.
@James Henry Smith That has yet to be demonstrated.
What’s philosophy of religion atheism? I might be interested
@@aguychillin7700 atheism that's based more in philosophy than...whatever is going on with most atheist youtubers.
I like how it looks like you're talking to his little sprite almost
Honestly some of the best arguments "against Atheism" as it were is just watching anti-theists on CZcams.
Also the irony of Atheists aggressively proselytising
Calling religion a mental illness will only make the term lose all clinical relevance. The overwhelming majority in any country on earth is religious in one way or another. If everyone is mentally ill no one is.
I think Telltale's content makes a pretty good case for there being a need to criticize the most extreme people that anyone listens to, moreso than whoever it is the most people listen to.
The fact that being consistent about this has led to him getting more political arguably says more about how religion and politics have changed than how he has:
I mean, yeah, issues like creationism in schools were technically political, but that was religion trying to influence politics.
Now, though, there are influential religious groups that are (much more blatantly) influenced BY their politics, and by political conspiracy theories that don't seem inherently religions.
I have missed seeing the pair of you just chatting about stuff. It always gives me hope people can get along
New Atheism wasn't even philosophically deep. The leaders of the movement - Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris etc. - took the evangelical Christian literalism in the US and the Wahhabism of al-Qaeda and worked from the assumption that religous thought has operated exactly like that throughout history. It is certainly possible to make intelligent critiques of religious faith but that requires a level of curiosity and nuance that the New Atheist movement refused to adopt. Also the rampant racism, misogyny, queerphobia etc.
Pfft, you become what you accuse others of.
Absolutely loved the premiere, thanks Ocean.
I feel like many atheists youtubers are out there to attack religion, but the best ones are trying to stand up for Truth. That’s the difference you were talking about between attacking an idea and defending one. Paul doesn’t just attack Biblical Literalists, he creates and a hypothesis for how we could get Christianity as a religion. Drew is trying to build bridges to foster dialogue between Christians and Atheists. Most importantly, the best Atheist youtubers can attack Christianity without attacking Christians (unless they do scummy things, at which point they’re called out for being scum, not for their religious beliefs). Far too many atheists go after low-hanging fruit and don’t seem to be aware that just because most people who, say, support child marriage are Christians, it doesn’t mean the reverse is true, as most Christians don’t support child marriage. If we can’t get more respect, we’re going to see more and more division and see that turn into extremism- violent extremism if history repeats itself.
I love this type of philosophical content interspersed with your myth/practice content. As a "new atheist" turned Heathen, this was an especially fun one.
@James Henry Smith Yes, several of them are.
I know so many secular American atheists who think they're venting about "all religions" but they just hated growing up in conservative Christian areas lololol. They seem to think that line about the dude in the sky really cuts deep or something - not all religions are Evangelical Christianity
This articulates well why I've stopped watching a lot of atheist content and now watch a lot more Biblical scholarship videos. I want to learn, and on first exiting Christianity, learning the arguments against apologetics was helpful. But now I find it more interesting to learn what the authors of the Bible were really saying, or what the early Church even looked like, replacing the faulty bias knowledge I was taught with the latest understanding by experts. I also find it more interesting to learn about other religions than to try to tear them down, which is a lot of why I even watch this channel.
What have you learned, if you don't mind me asking ?
Forgive me if you bring this up and i missed it, I have been around a long long time (animist now grown beyond athiesm btw) and I recall when the skeptic-athiest sphere went south, at least in my observation. Rebecca watson asked men not to approach women late night in elevators for propositions in her vlog after an awkward experience at a conference. it was such a mild critique, and everyone went nuts. Dawkins weighed in that she should be thankful she isnt in the middle east (very subtle sir). this awoke and activated the anti sjw elements in my observation, and sorted out everyone who cared about progressive politics. Atheism online was more or less abandoned to right-libertarians. This might have even been the birth o f youtube atheism itself. They're stuck in the ancient loop because they are reactionary and have nothing to say.
I wasnt an insider or anything but if you want the story of why atheism sucks you should seek her out for a convo!
I was around then and I enjoyed many atheist creators I still enjoy. Dawkins of course lost much of my respect, and has lost more since. But I have dropped only two creators and added quite a few. Religious people can be just as SJW or anti-SJW, just as egalitarian and welcoming or as hateful and murderous.
Atheism is nothing more than; *"Nope, ain't buying it." The evidence presented is not commensurate with the lofty claims you are making.* I don't know what *you* think "atheism" is, but its apparently not the "answers" you seek...
@@agamgaf3407 words mean different things in different contexts, but ultimately yes I suppose you are correct. Movement atheism is exactly as vacuous as empty smug dictionary pedantry.
I am new to the channel, saw a vid a month ago, subbed a bit after and this conversation just alleviates any questions I'd have about where you stand morally and politically etc. You clearly are about learning and progressing and I am very very pleased to know you see the pitfalls of apolitical and ineffective aspects of how we learn and teach.
"Well what now?" That's the step so many people get stuck. Rejecting organized religion and finding your own way is hard. Its especially hard when you want to make sure your views stand up to scrutiny. I wish more atheists to get involved in rigorous study of philosophy and world religions and move beyond merely reacting to the hegemonic religion.
Deconstruction hurts and constructing something new is a long process so many end up in the weird middle space that's safe.
The successful atheist content is normally more of a conversation. The videos that helped me the most were respectful of the Christian community while being digestible. And if they do lampoon, like Sir Sic, they are lampooning themselves too. I keep coming for respectful discourse and well researched coverage.
Fantastic discussion! Much respect from Baltimore, Ocean!
I LOVE both your channels! I missed having videos of yall together
Insightful as always, Ocean and Suris!
Really enjoyed this conversation. Very interesting points brought up. Thank you.
Two of my favorites collabing. I'm here for it
This was a really interesting but weird subject to write wedding thank you cards to. Since I've never been an atheist proper - though I struggle with latent atheism in the form of deep skepticism. It can be strange to see Atheists get as militant if not worse than religious people, it was nice to hear perspective on it.
Seriously? Come back when you can show atheists armed, kitted up, and swearing they are "commanded by god" to kill all non-believers. Have you ever studied and monitored the far right Christian Militias? And you're gonna dump on athiests? Pftt.
Funny thing, I've been an atheist since the '70s, and had to come up with my own arguments while growing up in a Christian family in a Christian community. The arguments are the same today. The problem with atheism, which has been the problem all along, is exactly the same as the benefit, namely that it is an answer to one question. In the same way that you do not see any society being created around theism alone, you will not find a thriving true society around atheism alone. But there is, at least in Norway, a growing society that calls itself secular humanism. Skepticism on the internet, which criticizes irrational arguments in theism, is still important ... and perhaps this is reason enough to continue creating this type of content.
What you and Suris talk about here is something I noticed a long time ago, and is definitely not limited to CZcams IMO. When I "officially" left Christianity back in college, the obvious alternative at the time was the agnostic/atheist/humanist world, which I very quickly found to be completely stagnant. It was only concerned with arguing against religious claims (specifically Christianity and Islam), and actively refused to ever move on from it.
The question I always found myself asking when living in that world was "okay, so I don't really buy into the concept of a God or of gods. What now?" And whenever I asked the "what now" question I was only ever met with hostility. The only answers with any substance I would ever get was something along the lines of "once religion is gone, we'll be living in a Star Trek utopia."
Because even after leaving the religion I was raised in, I still had those existential questions and desire for some sort of spiritual framework, and atheism (and agnosticism for that matter) actively refuse to answer them (see "atheism is only a lack of belief in gods"). It offered nothing. So I moved on, and after all of these years no other religious path has been convincing to me, so I still find myself in this non-theistic space, and nothing in it has changed. I've been interested in non-theistic paganism lately as a potential framework, but that gets met with fire from all sides, which is immeasurably frustrating.
Thats how i felt. When i became atheist. I just felt like something is still missing and now im pagan
Baptist to UU to Wicca (long term) to agnostic atheist. Interested in many progressive targets, no deities required; interested in much the same egalitarian hopes as always with less baggage and more freedom.
You should read "You Cannot Die" by Ian Currie. Hope it helps.
@@DudewithaGoodMood what is it about, if I may ask
@@Lycaon1765 Many records regarding near death and after death and apparitions,Astral travel. It talks about how it is in the after life and why these are not hallucinations but real.
Helsa! Excellent discussion! I highly enjoy ed and encourage more conversations! I'm Blotting Odhinn tonight for your continued efforts to foster this effort!
i think that atheists recognise that atheism is just an answer to one question and the general community just doesn't care. we sustain our community mainly through anger at harm caused by religious people in the name of (though not always in the spirit of) their religion, and maintain our numbers through the constant influx of new non-believers. people assume that there must be more (because there definitely should), but because that's all that's needed to keep it going, it never really moves past that first answer. and this is disappointing for many, because that first answer can tear down a lot of someone's philosophical framework - especially if they were raised in a theistic religion - and they have to look elsewhere.
i saw lots of people, mainly in the live chat, who were criticising atheism for not providing more, when that's not its purpose, and it's the fault of the atheist community and not atheism that this problem exists. we can't fix the problem without recognising what needs fixing.
What happened is that it never improved it's politics, content to remain in 90s-00s liberalism and move no farther.
I've been pagan for a long time, and dove into atheist content due to my need for arguments against my in-laws, who tried very VERY hard to get my husband to leave me and marry someone from their church.
However, now that I understand scripture and the arguments against it, I generally find atheist content boring and repetitive... Especially when the main schtick is "religion is nonsense"
I'm glad it's out there, but I was also very glad to find your channel for polytheist historical content. And puns, which I've stolen from you to make my friends groan
It's been so long all I can remember was the drama wars between FakeSagan, TAA, Thunderf00t, Captain Awesome and Straight D0pe.
Good video Ocean.
Yourself and Suris have given me a bit to think on here.
I've been slowly developing along the line of polytheism and atheism and this conversation is very important and interesting
The only atheist content I regularly watch are the high end ones like GMS, Prophet of Zod, Belief It Or Not, and Paulogia. I'm not an atheist but I do enjoy a lolcow video but it's more of a once in a while. Mike Winger is hard to deal with because if you strike back at him, no matter what he said, he immediately plays victim.
And the number of atheists who can make content countering Mike Winger are few due to the odd delivery and the issue of size, you need a small, almost invisible atheist content maker or Mike will find out about it and play victim.
This is so weird to me. I'm an atheist and don't belong to any community but the scientific community. These people are in a theist-bashing community, not an atheist or critic community. It's sad when you free yourself of religion only to spend your life being obsessed with religion.
21:22 I'm a former atheist turned polytheist. My reasons were 1) atheism gave me nothing and it was pretty depressing the lack of meaning. I was miserable back then. And 2) I tried some magick and it worked and I didn't expect that.
I like how Suris had to tone down his Avatar for this, lol.
it's what i had on hand.
Nostalgic.
I'm atheist, the idea of "atheist conversation" is odd to me because as a group the only thing we have in common is no belief in gods. We're not some kind of monolith lol. There is no "community", or at least it's a fringe one. We don't get excited or freak out when we meet other atheists, it's not like we're a secret club lol.
At least we don't bore each other, we're not cookie cutter copies of each other. We can learn from each other, find new areas to explore.
Exactly what I was saying. Atheism is LACK of belief. They are talking about it as if it's some kind of belief or community. There are people that believe in Lord Xenu (Scientologists) and ALL the rest of us that don't... All of us that don't believe in Lord Xenu are not in a community, we're just atheists.
💯🎯💯
Everyone who pretends there's no "atheist community" is either not paying attention or is lying to themselves.
@@Vivi2372 there’s no community
As an ex-atheist I must say that this nurturing of frith here warms my heart
If I commented on everything I found interesting about this conversation my comment would be too long to read. Love discussions like this
I love the content of your shows. Here is a bit of suggestion. A lot of jargon gets thrown about in these conversations won't know the meaning of. I imagine that it would be helpful for a lot of people for you to occasionally define terms and especially acronyms being bantered about.
Preach brother!
Would like to see more content about how atheism (or really any non-christian beliefs/practices) affects daily life. The jesus ppl see him in every moment, guiding them through this existance. "What atheism got?" might be a question theyre too afraid to ask but are curious about.
I guess with no religious trauma, they probably get very philosophic or just dont care.
Athiesm is the same as living in a secular society which just pick any modren westren nation
As an atheist viewer, these videos are so much fun.
PERFECT... Oh my shh... Don't look in to history especially 17+1800's , oh my are you in for a spin. (No religious content there)
@@kore4life wtf is with this comment sections and people responding to me incoherently
Just found this channel. I agree with the content about tearing things down. The reality is that most people who hold the atheist proposition seem to yield to different philosophies,for example naturalism, humanism, or otherwise. And yes it's in addition, and having that dialogue could be enriching in addition to just an atheist debate. Broader dialogues might be worthwhile, because it illustrates what one is for.
I have never been a fan of atheist content. So much of it boils down to "here is why this specific middle eastern religion has problems". To most it's not philosophy in and of itself, it's philosophy as response to other philosophy and that is a much weaker stance.
This is whybi feel more free with polytheism. Even with atheism i felt trapped cause there is still some dogma there and some really bad rhetoric towards other religions
So you are highly sensitive to rhetoric?
I think ‘it is just a lack of belief in god’ to describe what atheists believe (or don’t) can be, while correct in the broadest terms, used as a disingenuous way to relieve the communities they have fostered of the culpability of the actions and beliefs of others in the community.
Like you were saying there are issues with white supremacy, anti-semitism, Islamophobia, misogyny, homophobia, etc. but because the umbrella is big and has so many sub-communities a lot of atheists don’t feel any responsibility to address them or more importantly to try to root them out and prevent them from growing.
When the skeptic community split in two over feminism, the feminist side certainly DID criticize the misogyny of their former peers. To the point where a lot of them are now more known for feminism than for atheism.
I highly recommend Fundie Fridays and Mickey Atkins for empathetic evaluations with harmful Christianity, especially the kind that sneaks into your ear and leaves bias thats hard for even non Christians to shake.
I'm so happy my lil 8bit Ocean is still in the corner!! :D
it's such a fun little image. I may take it off or replace it at some point, but I just like it sitting there. Thanks so much for making it.
@@OceanKeltoi I'm glad you liked it!
I'm a Theist, but I still love Sir Sic. Awesome shout out! Now, back to my whiskey....
Since becoming an atheist and finding people like you and Dr Jackson Crawford, I’ve started to look at anything other that Christianity. The Southern Baptist church made me atheist…go figure. 😂 This was a very interesting conversation indeed.
Was a good video, though I will have to rewatch it as I was too distracted with the chat at times.
it was good talking to you
@@OceanKeltoi
Same. Hopefully I will be able to make it to the next video premiere as well.
@@OceanKeltoi we need more conversations like this
I had noticed some of these problems but a lot was stuff I didn't really see. I need to re evaluate the direction of what I cover and how.
Another great video. Ocean, I was wondering if you could do a video about spiritual people who forsake all types of physical medication/help/treatment even when it's absolutely necessary, in favor for spiritual healing? Like basically tackle toxic spirituality/toxic positivity?
To clarify I am in no way suggesting spirituality isn't important, I'm very spiritual and I am a norse pagan, however realistically I know that if I'm sick I need to try to seek out medical attention if I have the means and resources. I just see so many people in spiritual communities online who are extremely toxic in the sense that they refuse to acknowledge the necessity for medical attention, or they'll blame depression on some weird thing like energy.
Atheists have better things to do with their time. I just click on these vids because I have a beard fetish.
Honestly thats valid
My favorite atheists to follow on CZcams have been Sam Harris and Cosmicskeptic but that's mainly because they provide more depth to the topics they discuss with a variety of topics that never seem to end in their nuance.
I understand what you mean by atheist topics being parasitic but that's mainly because the position of atheism is not like any other because it is a reactionary stance by virtue of what it is defined by. I forget who said it first but a lot of atheists actually express this desire to not want to discuss atheism but they are compelled to. Sam Harris I know has said that he would rather if he didn't discuss religion at all anymore because he finds the idea boring and beaten to death but it's not a matter of what he thinks if religious extremists are still trying to influence and change this world at the expense of others whether through force or political power. Atheism isn't a religion just like not stamp collecting isn't a hobby but if stamp collectors discriminated against people who didn't collect stamps then you would see movements developed by people who didn't collect stamps.
When two atheists hangout they don't talk about their atheism. If we do it is only in response to religious actions in our lives.
I was raised Christian, Baptist, tried Catholicism, Islam Judaism, nothing felt right, So I became an atheist, but felt something was missing, started studying Buddhism as a philosophy, but still couldn’t find spirituality, becoming a Pagan, a Heathen seems to work for me.
This is very insightful. I’ve been a part of all the communities mentioned here and when I was involved in atheist circles it absolutely was true!!! It was all about criticizing- and it was justified- but there wasn’t anything for family. For culture/community. I don’t have a solution, and I’m a weird cookie myself so never fit in anywhere. I also have yet to find a place where I can refuse to align with either American political party and not get verbally harassed. People got free speech but I can’t stay around that(edit- I can’t stick around and get verbally pummeled)
Fascinating stream, I think you guys make a lot of good points on the failures of New Atheism, though I will note that people like CosmicSkeptic and Rationality Rules are trying to be more philosophically informed in what they do, which is hopefully at least creating a rise in more interesting and better content.
What's the "failure?" Atheism is nothing more than; *"Nope, ain't buying it." The evidence you present is not commensurate with the lofty claims you are making.*
I don't know what *you* think "atheism" is, but its apparently not the "answers" you seek...
I guarantee you know less about atheism than those at Real Atheology.
@@OceanKeltoi An internet "guarantee" - how utterly reliable 👍💯
Now if only RR would actually apologize for and remove his transphobic video. Or for uncritically platforming white supremacists.
I get that his intent is to be more philosophically informed in what he does, but there are times he's really bad at it and causes harm that he has shown no signs of caring about whatsoever.
Cosmic has done the same but to a lesser extent on some occasions.
In my view the fundamental problem with Atheism is that it's so hard to prove a negative without being omniscient even when you are talking about something supposedly tangible like bigfoot. How does one even begin to prove the non-existence of every sort of god imagined and all other possibilities of what a god might be that no one has thought about.
In some ways I can simply be described as post Christian. In terms of where I am in the evolution of my beliefs I'm basically a theistic agnostic meaning that I've had enough experience with the supernatural to know that there really is a spiritual reality out there that can be described as god or gods, but I no longer have a clear view on how it all fits together in a religious system. However, to me the least attractive option out there is atheism because its assertions require the very sort of epistemological leap of faith that it renounces. And my experience with so many atheists that I have met is that they tend to be as intolerant of alternative religious perspectives as fundamentalists in theistic religions and come across as potentially dangerous should they acquire enough power. The existence of fanatics does not disprove atheism in itself no more than it disproves any religion. It just proves that atheism hasn't escaped the most important problem with religion in general, namely religious intolerance.
to piggyback on one of Ocean's observations. When atheists attacks any religious perspective based on the slippery slope argument, it's exposing that it has not escaped religious intolerance and is engaging in the very behavior that they are criticizing.
"Charming is the hazard, O Bacchus, to accompany the god who binds his temple with the verdant-vine leaf" - Horace
I liked seeing old Suris avatar
Haha hey, Ocean, I have that same t-shirt ☕
I think it's important to have various voices talking about the same thing but in different ways.
Just one person (let's say Paulogia) talking about how the Kalam fails is good, but that's one perspective. But when Viced Rhino, David John Wellman, the SkepTick, Godless Engineer, and others all discuss it in different ways, I think that can connect with people.
It took more than just one person explaining why the earth was older than 6,000 years before I believed it. It took more than one person before I started thinking Christianity wasn't true.
Multiple voices on the same topic aren't necessarily a bad thing.
Big agree here. I think that there's a balance though between multiple voices putting their own angle on a subject, and beating a subject to death such that the entire set of argumentation becomes tired. Paulogia is great at taking the response video format and turning it into an educational show exploring various angles on the subject. I obviously disagree with him from time to time, but overall he's a positive force against creationists and others that he focuses on in a genre that is often saturated with content that is tired and repetitive.
I'd say that my wording that Paul 'has it covered' is bad wording, really. He definitely operates within the genre in a way that is effective, but that doesn't mean there isn't room for others to approach it in a way that is their own and fresh when compared to the saturation. There's always room for someone like that to show up in the scene.
@@OceanKeltoi
I agree completely!
I'm am atheist who knows next to nothing about paganism/polytheism and haven't heard of your channel before, so I'm looking forwarding to checking out more of your videos!
20:00 hey that's me! To me (and i do find it really comforting) i don't see that there will be anything after. It all just finally ends and it's a nice thought. That said i truly don't care enough about atheism as far as categorizing myself and i think religion can be beautiful (or can inspire awfulness! In the other side of the same coin) and thats part of why i enjoy exploring cultures experiences and religiosities
What about rationality rules, he tries to supply the atheist emptiness (or let's called reactionary dinamics, in the sense that is only reactive to theism but doesn't offer anything) with rationality. Even if he doesn't do it in the best way, philosophy could be the supplement for meaning and tradition, depending on the philosophy you could have faith, like let's say theleological Marxism, or community like epicurians, but even then you can't have rituals. Rituals and their intrinsic meaning is a human need.
What are you talking about, 'Pilgrim?' What's the "failure?" Atheism is nothing more than; *"Nope, ain't buying it." The evidence you present is not commensurate with the lofty claims you are making.*
I don't know what *you* think "atheism" is, but it's apparently not the "answers" you seek...
Man, that brenda chick really just came into the chat to try and start shit huh? It's like people don't understand the concept of respect anymore :/ also, this was very enjoyable to watch.
14:39 I do think that's my biggest problem when I engage with discourse around Atheism, or even with Heathenry, which is: this line of logic is basically identical to nationalism.
To build an imagined community of nations, you need to unify you tribes, even if they're fundamentally ununifiable(intranslateable with each other). And you will have to create an imagined antagonistic community as your Other.
When I, as a Christian who really want to appreciate what you do on YT, heard people talking like Christianity is a solid rock of single unit, I always get really confused. There are probably as many types of practicing Christianity as people who present themselves as Christians, if you really ask what they think about their belief. Of course, if you want to talk about history, the word "Christianity" will have very specific (academic) historical meaning, but the problem is, most discourses don't do that: they don't define Christianity.
Imo, there are two possible reasons behind this. One, they probably can't define Christianity, at least not that clearly. Two, they don't want to spend the time to actually define who they want to communicate with. However, the damage still exist under this kind of rhetoric: they will make actual people become target to throw rocks at, even though those people won't necessarily stand together. Yeah, that's really inclusive, isn't it?
I wouldn't say "Heathenry" is a very unified practice which have identical belief, but the weight of care don't goes both ways. That's just how it is. That's just how the discourse I saw on YT usually gos: they're making nationalism out of religion belief.
In 21 century, we still can't escape the nationalist rhetoric. Just like how we did it in the olden time.
Nationalism is true and based, though
Well "christianity"has a hell of past and issues.
To be fair, people should specify what they critizize, but aside ok there are jokes that could be mean.,
Ok its not a monolith its hella diverse and "big churches and televangelist and hate preachers" is probably more meant.
I do think the Atheist community needs people like Sir sic, Paul, Aron who fight many theistic arguments and try to present atheistic arguments for others to try and think on, but then also channels like GMS, Cosmic skeptic, Rationality Rules who focus on the philosophy and talks and seeking understanding rather than debates and fighting bad ideas. And then channels like Friendly Atheist or Telltale acting a bit as an outlet of information.
I do however think atheism should indeed start to move more towards the positions of GMS, Cosmic and the like that don't act like they're at war and remind people that theists and atheists can be the same and we should seek bringing everyone together despite their religious instead of alienating each other creating groups that can and most likely will be turning more vile toward one another. But also still rooting out bad ideas like flat earth, not heterosexual people deserving to be killed, trans people not being people, antisemitism... that sort from both sides. No matter if it's Kent Hovind, Lucien Greaves or whoever else.
For Doomhammer
On the discussion of antisemitism, I feel it is actually very important that we clarify that zionism is the belief that Jewish people should have a state - this does not inherently mean that this belief is held at all costs, that crimes should be committed against others, etc. A zionist could believe in diplomatic means to achieve those ends, just as others believe in violent means to achieve them. Zionism in and of itself is not an inherently immoral position - it is the way in which Zionism is applied which may or may not be harmful. I actually think that given Jewish history, it is actually very reasonable for them to desire their own state. That desire does not imply that all zionists believe that war crimes are a just means to that end.
Elsewise, an excellent discussion, and still a proud patron.
I used to keep watching atheist channels. I was in a mood that everything supernatural must have a logical explanation and due to my fear of Hell (which has gotten less over time) I needed this. Or so I thought. What I realised is that theists channels (especially Christian) and atheist channels are the exact same. They don't get anywhere over each other, as they will always believe the same things. You can not debunk every argument from either side, and I realised this. So I checked out a near death experiences website that didn't promote any specific religion, it instead said that everyone is right, and that changed what I believed in and how I see everyone on CZcams
Guys as I was coming out of a mild fever-dream I thought to myself something like "always check a gift-horse's mouth for runes carved on it's teeth". I'm not sure what to make of it, lil' help?
As someone who has traversed from Christianity through Atheism and on into Heathenry, I would contend that the 'culture' of Atheism is in many aspects or perhaps of many Atheists a culture of almost absolute, skeptical empiricism. They are the ideological descendants of Doubting Thomas.
And while a very rigid and strict view of the universe, it is one for which many valid arguments could be made. It is a culture that values hard sciences to the point that you could say science itself is the religion of Atheism.
It is also a culture that values the here and now of life and existence, lacking both evidence and belief in anything more than our brief, frail, uncertain mortal existence. That is a kind of a stoic bravery.
I do know (for I was this way myself) that Atheists can be arrogant, dismissive, and condescending when addressing people espousing spiritual experiences or beliefs. That is a perhaps a common pitfall for the culture of Atheism.
But, I think it is also dismissive to say that Atheism lacks a culture of its own, or only stands against cultures. And, I think it unfair to allow an implication to flow from that that Atheism does not have elements that would make for a worthwhile culture. The easiest example is to simply state that we benefit from their scientific fervor... probably magnitudes more than what we suffer from their misguided condescension.
Sir Sic is one of the greatest human beings on planet earth
Well there's only so many ways to say "the divine isn't real" and no where to go from there once that's established. When you more or less sit on all the evidence whilst the "opposing" side has essentially none (none that isn't easily dismissable) you don't really _need_ to change. No matter how stale the content is. Or really even can, at least not without simply having the channel cease to be about the original topic (moving on from atheist videos to life advice videos derived from an atheist POV for example, or just making a generic science channel).
When you accept a premise that divinity is real in some sense (whatever form that is), you have bajillions of ways to go from there. How do you interact with them? What do do we already know about them? What can they teach us about ourselves? Etc. Such a premise inherently has room for expansion in discussion, whilst I would personally argue that the former doesn't.
However tho most atheist content wasn't even much about that anyway in the first place I guess, so take this with a sack of salt idk
Hey ocean been a hot minuet
I thought I was alone on these thoughts,but I guess ppl are sick of this shit as I am LAMO
Oh really? What is it that you are sick of - be specific?
@@agamgaf3407 reactionary content that does nothing for the community
@@joenathan8059 So we can observe you immediately dodged the question. Why is that?
Honestly, I think it just fell out of style. I used to watch Thunderfoot way back in the 2010's, but he just annoys me now.
Sir Sic is pretty dang funny.
His schtick never gets old for me.
Also like Paulogia and Shannon Q and Viced aka Justin and Logicked.
I remember that I use to watch Dillihunty (I can't remember how to spell his last name) all the time and all the shows that were connected to the main atheist show with Matt. It was fun for awhile (I was still in my atheist/agnostic/(maybe)pagan mindset, just trying to figure things out, and Matt was like refreshing (for me) to hear his rebuttals against Christians (not anyone else bc who else to talk about than rebuttaling Christians 🤪) and give shed some light on the Bible (bc I've never read the Bible, even though I "grew up" Christian). Anyway, it was only until last year (when I started to fully immerse myself into Paganism, which doesnt really have a connection to this but still) that I started listening more to Matt than his rebuttals. He always sounded angry and (with most of the callers) would get angry, tell them to shut up or hang up before the caller could finish. This definitely led me to start actually listening and seeing how Matt acted and I had to stop bc I realized it was just making me more hateful the more I listened and watched Matt. I hope his better now (I've unsubcribed from all the channels/shows) bc I don't listen to him anymore idk how he's doing. But sorry for the long tangent, the very last part of the video made me think about this. Thank you for all the hard work you put into your videos and being so hilarious Ocean!
Edit: I also want to add that Matt seemed only to want to debate Christians than have an actual conversation (since apparently, I think, he is an actual professional debator)
_"Matt is angry sounding."_ Have you ever seriously studied and sat through sermons from RW Extremist Evangelicalism?
Matt can be angry sounding at the same time as others being angry sounding.
@@OceanKeltoi Yeah...I personally dig it. No fkin around with that guy.
@@agamgaf3407 the cult of Matt endures.
I'm an atheist and I cannot listen to Matt D. His approach is the same approach I had as a fundamentalist Christian - insulting, rude, and short tempered. There's not enough time in life for all that; I want to hear respectful dialog, not loud-mouth monologs.
i like the atheist content that really gets into science education or history of religion, stuff like that.
The problem that I keep having is that I've yet to see a way to demonstrate the existence of any gods in any objective sense. I'm not anti-theist--far from it, in fact. I just like to be able to ground what I'm believing in something that doesn't require the suspension of disbelief.
I’m a theist but I empathise with that viewpoint and I share it somewhat. I agree with Andrew Garfield’s comment in an interview where he said “a life of faith is a life of doubt”, I’ve had a few experiences throughout my life that I can’t explain but I don’t instantly clap my hands and shout “god” or something, usually I’ll analyse myself, it could be fatigue, stress etc making me experience those things.
The bible (which won’t apply to most of the audience here i’d imagine but they’ve probably grown up with it to some extent) has quite a few figures in it who face doubt and don’t take things immediately at face value.
So I’d say it’s good to doubt and keep searching, I wouldn’t say what you have is “a problem”
Atheist Community on you tube shouldn't be about making content it should be about realizing what is true and what is not true. I'm more of atheistic pagan but I don't believe it should be about making content it should be about discerning facts from fiction history from mythology. What really happened from what they say happened
TRANSLATION: "I don't like atheists making content. They should do what I want." 👌
I love sir sic
"We have fedoras" lmao
What about the agnostic community 😢?
i lack knowledge of it
What is the genre of music that is set behind this?
i had some royalty free synthwave mixes on. Check out White Bat Audio, that's where the music for this channel generally comes from.
Yeah i noticed the repititious nature of Atheist debates myself.
When arguing with theists (especially the likes of young earth creationists) who always come with the same claims, well-thought or absurd and refuted a thousand times, there are only so many ways to say the same things back (and basic facts do not change). Unfortunately, we need someone to counter their absurdities, and those who take up the duty risk burnout without some way to mitigate the monotony or change the pattern, expand the horizon.
@Caleb Gillock What are you talking about? Atheism is nothing more than; *"Nope, ain't buying it." The evidence you present is **_not commensurate with_** the lofty claims you are making.*
I don't know what *you* _think_ "atheism" is, but it's apparently not the "answers" you seek...
Atheists: "prove god exists"
Theists: "prove god doesnt exist"
Atheist: "ummmm aktchewally"
atheist type content sure but youtubers who are atheist have not gone anywhere. Im an atheist, that wont change, but it is more entertaining to learn about the cultures of religion, like yours, than to watch someone say there is no god.
I find using the blanket term “Abrahamic religions” is an easier way to encapsulate Christianity, Islam, Judaism, and Catholicism.
The problem is the foundational dogma; the idea that religious works cannot be altered, but interpreted.
I'm hearing a lot of complaining about the atheist community, but not the names of any channels. Only the names of channels Suris likes.