The Vikings Saw Luck WAY Differently Than We Do
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- čas přidán 24. 06. 2024
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Further Videos / Links
- The Godless Ones: • Were There Atheist Vik...
- Freyr: • Yngvi Freyr | Guardian...
- Beofelds Scorn Pole: declarationofdeeds.com/
- Icelandic Saga Database: sagadb.org/index_az
Further Reading
- Gisli's Saga
- Egil's Saga
- The Saga of Grettir the Strong
- Viga-Glum's Saga
- The Norse Conception of Luck - Bettina Sejbjerg Sommer
- The Road to Hel - HRE Davidson
00:00 - Intro
00:19 - What is Luck
01:05 - Norse Concept of Luck
02:42 - The Good, The Bad & The Unlucky
04:39 - Actions, Destiny & The Hammingja
07:17 - The Effects Of Luck
09:02 - Gisli The Outlaw
14:10 - Grettir The Strong
15:47 - Personal Practice
music by Karl Casey @ White Bat Audio
"It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness, that is life." Captain Picard
Fenix StarCraft 1 Broodwars: there is no shame in defeat as long as the spirit is unconquered!
Me: Words to Live by in my opinion
Captain Picard was the wisest of all the Jedi Masters.
A great quote from a great captain.
@@jasonblanke321 Captain Picard. Captain of the Enterprise-D an former Captain of the Stargazer.
Lmao 🤣 I said this to my dad once, and he just replied "Well i never met him when i was in the army, and I've never heard of him either. But i can tell you that's wrong. If you didn't do anything wrong, you can't have lost!"
The real luck is being able to grow such a magnificent beard
I once came across someone who used dice as a method of divination with Loki. Honestly one of the most unique practices ive seen.
Describes my trickery cleric perfectly lol
I didn't realise other people did this, too! I'm also Lokean, & I use a d20 for divination! :D
@@doctornefarious6271 My best friend refuses to discuss his religious beliefs. But he uses a virtual D20 in Discord to for tell his luck.
Interesting! I'm also Lokean, and though I don't use d20 for divination, I use it for motivation sometimes. Like I get to roll it for every dish I wash, and if I get a 20 I can eat an ice cream.
Oh yeah, and I played a fire genasi sorcerer named Locke.
@@doctornefarious6271 Can you tell me, a fellow Lokean, what that is? (Some D&D thing?) And how to use it? 🙂
It's not so much about the destination. But more about the intestines we had to tie along the way.
🤌 I guffawed, thank you! 🤣💚
This is one way to tie a rope bridge.
Puns and dad jokes are now known as turtle food!
That's also an oversimplification of "karma," a wildly misunderstood concept among Americans (and the west at large).
Agreed
@@OceanKeltoi ah hey thanks!
Just to sort of follow up on my earlier comment and to offer some bread crumbs in what I believe to be the right direction, "karma" is not a moral mechanism by which the universe passes judgment.
(Tl;dr It's just cause and effect and everything else is fluff added on later for other reasons.)
In Judeo-christian cultures, karma is often viewed through a judeo-christian lens: as a divine judgment or reckoning, just rewards, however impersonal, but this is simply not so. "Karma," as understood in the Buddhist sense, is simply the universal law of cause-and-effect. It is, as one popular show so perfectly stated, "practically Newtonian." The karma of throwing an apple into the air is the throwing as well as every single effect to follow, both mental and physical. The karma of lying is not necessarily that one will be lied to in the future (though it _may_ include that) but rather all the messy entanglements which follow, and, importantly, the view of the entire set of actions and reactions, as a *unified whole.*
Now, as followers of this wonderfully nuanced channel will likely know, religions are internally diverse. The "Dharmic" religions (Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, etc) are no different. Among the more conservative and controlling, and among the more "folk-religious" sorts, you will hear karma appropriated to emulate divine moral judgment, but this is not what the Buddha himself taught (though a healthy debate can be had on exactly what the Buddha did and did not say.)
I have never in my life been less surprised than when hearing Ocean say the words "I'm doing a viking-themed D&D campaign."
Can the Ocean dive? Yes, if there's a rogue wave of knowledge.
A flood of knowledge :P
The concept of the Hammingja sounds very like the concept of a personal spiritual guide that we see in other religions. I’d love more info or a whole video on it and I’ll go do my reading in the meantime 💖💖
Almost like a gaurdian angel in Christianity or how Chinese have ancestral shrines in the home! How neat!
The concept survives in Icelandic to this day, sort of, "til hammingju" being a common form of well wishes on one's birthday or other celebration.
@@InThisEssayIWill... The Romans had a concept of "household gods" or Penates that was very similar to this in some ways. They looked after the house itself and anyone who lived there.
I would love to hear more on this idea as well!
Me too! I'd like to know more. 💯👍
I have objectively bad luck when it comes to matters of chance and probability. As a gamer nerd, I have experimented with rolling dice and I was able to determine a statistically significant skew in favor of bad rolls over good ones. That being said, I learned about luck the way the Norse viewed it (as far as we know) many years ago, and I have worked hard to cultivate the luck I have. Thankfully, while my luck of chance is terrible, I have good luck when it comes to the quality of the people around me. I have solid friendships that last many years and I have very little drama in my life despite having an active social life. I actively try to cultivate this same luck for the people in my life, and it seems to work more or less
Chinese .. joss ..
Then please look up Joss money/ hell money.
Then design your own to photo copy as gifts to write prayers on to burn.
As a Aesir you can go with Njord/ Gifion.
You know what I love about you Ocean? You speak intelligently and clearly. Even people like myself who don't identify as any type of religion or what have you. I thoroughly enjoy listening to you speak on topics you are knowledgeable and passionate about. Keep it up. Skal
I had just gotten My Mother Told Me out of my head, Ocean.😂😭😭 Not anymore.
Law and Order: Special Viking Unit
This specific topic is one that's been of interest to me for years; wonderfully covered! I couldn't agree more about that intriguing dichotomy regarding a lack of full historical context.
This is certainly ... a bit... more complicated than “bad things happen to people that offend the gods” And no wonder Freyr was so popular, you screw with one of his people and he fucks you up for life. I wanna be on that guys side. Thor would probably “just” hit you with lightning.
Yeah, Thor is a bit more direct and simple in his methods. Uncomplicated, you could say. You know if he is on your side or not, because he will tell you or he will kill you lol
I was a little worried that this would follow the same lines a Christian prosperity gospel. But it seems like luck wasn't tied to piety. That's cool since Christians are known to see wealth as conformation of their righteousness.
As a former "Health and Wealth" christian, I can say you need to change your wording.
"...since some Christians are known to see wealth as a confirmation...." blah blah blah.
Some Christians actually see poverty as a confirmation of their "righteousness".
I'm not a Christian, and haven't been for decades, but I have to ask you to please stop broadbrushing people who have religious beliefs.
@@1005corvuscorax I did say 'some', meaning part not all. That being said your point is well made.
I also come from a Christian background, and there was significant contention in the congregation I grew up with when it came to wealth and their responsibility to the poor.
This largely broke along political lines where booth groups would use their reading of the gospel make points in Sunday school (we had rotating lay Sunday school teachers).
Anyhow in my congregation the more popular opinion was that wealth was a blessing from the Lord because of your righteousness. This was often said as an excuse for being opposed to taxes and social programs.
The inverse existed in my community but they were by far the minority, albeit an out spoken one when they had the chance.
Anyways the I someone that is far more easily annoyed by justifications for holding on to wealth than by people who insist on using it to care for the poor.
That Pun, had me ROLLING... with laughter.
I've never really thought about luck, or how I might fit it into my own practice. This is quite fascinating though.
This was a fascinating video. I have to agree that luck can be a trait as my brother has always asserted that I am luckier than him. I have a weird theory on luck at least pertaining to myself. If I say that something is impossible or it will never happen then very often the universe will manifest it. Now this doesn't seem to work for anything important just trivial things like miniature golf, target shooting, or D&D dice rolls for example. I guess you could say that I have dumb luck.
Whether Gisli was lucky or not depends on how you frame it. I mean, he *did* survive for 13 years on the run as an outlaw, after all, rather than stubbing his toe and falling off a cliff the day after the feast wherein he offended Freyr. So maybe his good deeds did act as a buffer against what could have been a worse fate.
Based on your summary here, it seems like the Norns tie knots and tangles into our threads through the tapestry, but it's up to us how (or if) we decide to untie them when we get to them.
Why didn't he consult a witch/seidkona for ways of removing the curse? 🤔
The word for luck In Scandinavia is "lykke" which translates to joy/luck
Oh yeah came here for the puns and wasn't let down
The discussion of how luck was viewed in the ancient Norse world makes me wonder how much of our current concept of luck may have been altered by the development of things like calvinist predestination and the protestant work ethic.
It seems that the ancient peoples of europe had a concept of luck that reflected the reality that a lot of factors go into whether someone will be successful in life or not, some of which are within our control and some of which are completely outside of it. Even someone who has done everything right can be screwed over by fate if enough of the factors they do not control do not work out in their favor, and even someone who has achieved great things can't lay the credit solely on themselves and their strengths, as circumstance surely always played a role. You can increase your chances at success by learning and developing a skill, but even that doesn't guarantee anything, as there will always be things beyond your control that effect your life.
None of this would have been particularly odd or heretical to early christians, but fast forward a thousand years to the development of ideas like predestination, and this assessment of luck no longer tracks. If God has already chosen those who he favors and those he doesn't, and outward success is a signifier that one has been blessed with God's favor (an idea that would have been crazy to early christians), then every event that influences your success, whether in or out of your control, is a reflection of whether you are a good person or not. Luck comes to those who have qualities that drive them to make good decisions. Appealing to "bad luck" to explain negative circumstances outside your control is just passing the buck, blaming God for the consequences of your own moral failings. Luck then becomes separated from skill and wisdom entirely, coming to be seen as mere superstition that the poor use as an excuse for their circumstances.
As an aside that has nothing to do with any of this, I actually think the D&D concept of luck works rather well with the Norse idea. You have your modifiers, and if you are very skilled in something you can guarantee success on just about any roll, or just "take 10" and ignore the roll entirely, knowing this is something you couldn't fail at if you tried. However, for most tasks, there is still that roll of the dice, and for very difficult, complex, or high stress tasks, even within skills that you are an expert in, there is still that slim chance that you'll roll a 1 and eat shit.
Cool story. I'm really just here for the Viking Dad jokes.
I love the little short at the end of the video.
"Just you wait boy" got me completely off guard. 😆
That's okay Ocean, I had a friend in school named Forest. Now I just need to meet a Swamp, a Mountain and a Plains....
Apropos of nothing, any names picked out for future kids?
No see, that would be if he was Island
A fellow Valhiem player?
MtG?
Desert! 🙂
I guess luck worked for me to stumble across this channel. Great content!
I also have a DnD character steeped in the exploration of luck as a family lineage as in bad luck. But I use Cormac McCarthy's quote, "You never know what worse luck your bad luck keeps you from."
So this is a cool dive to see how it can play out differently if I chose to pursue another luck themed character
I would love to play D&D with Ocean. I would imagine the characters would be amazing and based upon actual lore and the overall story would be amazing.
I could watch a 10 hour video of you talking about a certain topic and it would still feel short because of how much I enjoy it. Thanks for the amazing content
Your videos have done a great service and making me think about religion from a different angle, I think I have found a new level of respect and appreciation for both monotheist and polytheist faiths through this stuff. Thanks.
If Hammingja is a guide-like concept, is it weird that I think of the Greek "daimon"?
Interesting! 🙂
This is a topic I have been so curious about but haven't been able to dive into. This is such a good overview to start with, thank you and great work as always
One of my favorite magick practitioners ( don webb ) would roll all of these into a magickal concept he calls ‘ managed synchronicity’.
I like it.
This is an interesting topic. I personally have always felt like my luck and karma are intertwined with both effecting each other. I have been extremely lucky in my life having avoided death while both in the military and on the civilian side. I've been shot at, mortared, stabbed, hit by a tornado, and the list goes on. However in other aspects of my life such as love and marriage I have been extremely unlucky. Not to say I haven't been loved but I've been married three times, first two ended with me getting cheated on and the last because I could no longer make her happy in our marriage. So I see myself as both being a lucky and unlucky person with my life being balanced out not always the way I liked.
Speaking from a Taoist perspective, it is common to receive direction as to what actions may or may not be in alignment with providence. Within the context of the I Ching, particularly the commentary of General Wen, there is a “meta-luck”, where the actions of an individual (or a society) may fall into or out of harmony with. Like the tuning of an instrument, the more conscious we are of our harmony (or lack thereof), we move towards or away from providence.
That, uh, "post credits " bit gave me quite a chuckle. So much so I got looks from co-workers. Thanks for making such great content so masterfully woven with information and humor.
I’ve been wondering how luck played out for so long
Egil’s Saga is my favorite as it was my first saga I read many years ago. Great video as always
Awww.... I feel like it's how my Grandmother saw me to see synchronicities in the universe and to take it as a wink from the deities. That's lucky.
I enjoy these ‘Ocean dives’.
So one's luck in Norse culture is a mixture of one's proficiency and skill, the webs of their life and their fate, and supernatural intervention?
More or less, yeah. I believe these things should be treated as seperate, but related.
Gisli's Saga sounds like the story of my life... a definite read for me.
*I haven't killed anyone, I'm just incredibly unlucky.
I wish we knew more about Hammingja appeasing, cause my family, paternal grandfather side, seems to inherit bad luck plenty.
Have you read the Wheel of Time? There's an interesting character in it that might be drawing on some of these concepts.
My next to-read! 🙂👍
I really enjoy listening to how you present information.
My hubby and I often receive little pieces of luck just when we need it. Given that our mother's are both passed we often say this is 'the Grandma's' at work. Never anything big, but on the level of a parking angel. We're both of Nordic descent...maybe that's our hamingja at work ;)
Brilliant video as always, definitely given some great stuff to look into more deeply
I couldn't stop thinking about luck as "rolling with advantage vs rolling with disadvantage" in D&D.
“This man is eternally fuuu…” … me too Man… me too…
Grettir the stronk
I love that you play d&d too!! I just found you coming into my path for norse paganism and have been an avid ttrpg player for about 7 years.
New favorite guy on this path now!
Amazing video!! I missed the premiere but had the reminder on.
Always wondered about how luck is viewed in other traditions. And the ending tho LOL
Awesome vid! I never thought of luck like this.
Thank you for in-depth information and your knowledge
Maybe in the viking concept of luck, I'd say i had it pretty good so far in my life. Not saying my life is completely perfect and def NOT without it's down slopes. But i can take a look at it as a whole and say, you know what? Life's not that bad. Maybe, according to Viking luck, I'm lucky?
I find it a interesting idea. I'm taken to say I make my own luck because when good stuff happen, is when I normally done something to help cause it.
Asbjörn Torvol's Heathen exposed me to some information on the hámingjá, but he only stated there were ways to replenish it wheras you specifically mention sacrifice to it for that purpose. I'll have to explore that.
I am glad I found your channel, it has helped me mentally and spiritually.
Thank you!
Luck, in a sense similar to the Norse concept, is probably the only supernatural belief I have. I just can't shake the sense that fate has a force and a direction. Plus sometimes the patterns are just weird. Like I have a friend who we just accept always rolls very well on dice, and who otherwise has horrible "luck" in life.
Woah, on your way to hit 100 Videos! Congrats.
*mentions Norns* oh no... I hear the scrabbling of Tyranids nearby
LOL, "It's a little dicey." 😁👍
Oh gods I loved that last bit of the video 😆
Man, Gisli had a lot of guts. And then not so much. And then a lot again. Literally pulling himself together.
"You pulled yourself up by your bootstraps, eh? That's cute. You should try it with your lower intestine." -Gisli the Outlaw, a gutsy man
I've never heard of luck referenced like this before. Very interesting.
This was awesome. I didn’t realize that the hamingja was a guardian spirit of luck. I came across the story of Grettir in the marvellous VIKING trilogy by Tim Severin (highly recommended).
Your the man Ocean love your outlook on things. Thanks for all the knowledge
Sounds like perhaps it was a concept that the classical Greeks might find familiar, in the form of "fate" or "favor".. or even the early Christians in the earliest understanding of "graces."
That was great, btw! 🙂👍 Especially your retellings of the stories of those 2 unlucky Viking guys. Personally I don't know most of the sagas! 🙂
Well that answered some but gave me more questions lol, thanks for the videos
Theme of my videos. Here are some answers. But more importantly, here are more questions.
I can't believe there is a dislike.
Excellent video and topic. From one perspective altering, increasing and channeling the luck of self, family, clan, tribe and nation, is the very heart of Northern Tradition practice itself! Take the name Irmin or "Strong One" and the debate is whether it is an epitaph for one of the Gods (Odhinn') or is it the collective epitaph of the collective Hamingja of all the Gods, as there is evidence to support both such views. Soul lore wise the Fylgja albeit Deersfylfja, Fylgjakona/madhr or the Ætinsfylgja or Alfarfylgja, seem to be the traditional key to be able to directly influence your luck and through it your personal Örlogr.
Hi! You said we could ask questions and I have one about luck. I'm Finnish and one of the things I learned ages ago was that luck as a concept didn't really exist for the fenno Ugric tribes. To the Finns it was introduced by interaction with their Western neighbours. The two words used to describe luck are "onni" which is more like happiness and "tuuri". If someone is lucky we say they have a good "tuuri". Tuuri is also what we call Thor. Thor's name is the most popular in place names and the vast multitude of amulets found in the archaeological record are his. He seems to have been a god popular within most people, regardless of profession or rank. The amount of coastal place names also suggests he was favourite with sailors, and superstitions about luck are still commonplace and tattoos of anchors bear resemblance to the shape of a Mjölnir. As you are familiar with far more writings about Thor, would you say he is lucky in the Norse sense, enough to be able to have been associated with it? Or am I making conjecture out of coincidence?
Here's a nod to Thor that I am lucky enough for you to actually see my question! ⚓
Nice dive!
Always liked the Norse concept of luck. Beautifully explained.
Ocean,
Please post more often!
Skál🍻
I don't comment in videos much. I've been a Norse heathen for almost 2 years now and my journey in the faith has been highly guided by you, ocean. So skäl, blessed be, and luck of the gods from my hearth to yours
What luck that I found your vids :D
Your content is just awesome
Have you, or would you perhaps at some point like to, make a video about how pre-christian scandinavians looked at something like free will vs destiny?
In any case, thanks for your videos, keep up the good work and a roaring 'skål' from Denmark
I'm going to make this a nightly routine of a glass of mead and listening to how he tells the stories
I used to live in Papua New Guinea. The concept there of "compensation" is very similar to what the video details at 9:47.
I really really enjoy your videos! I found them after I started planning a D&D campaign as well, that is gonna be set in my version of Hel. It'll be a mix of Forgotten Realms Hell and Norse Mythology Hel. I've also gone over your videos about the soul, what it is, and what happens to it after you die, that I'm incorporating into my setting and the campaign. So damn interesting. I'm "godless" myself, but I really like Norse Mythology and all the stories. I think it that helps that I'm from Denmark, so it's still all very familiar to me :D
In terms of luck and how the Vikings viewed it, how would you use translate it to D&D instead of how it's currently done?
Already did a viking theme D&D game. In 3.5 using the book Deities and Demigods. It gives stat blocks for the gods, Thor included. It's funny to give it a read. My next game is going to be a Mortal Kombat/Power Rangers crossover universe.
Ocean's Deep Dives... good ring to it.
I do a lot of work on my luck ❤ this video did and continues to help me
You always have that dad energy at the beginning of your videos
Today I’ve been very vocal about my string of back luck lately. I’m not a very well-disciplined heathen in the religious aspect of my faith, but I hope the gods and spirits help me towards good fortune. I’m not one to pray, but I hope there’s someone out there who prays for me.
Improving luck could be in other areas as well
Good luck that your unlucky phase ends!
He's just eternally f****😂
"Luck - favours fools, children and ships named enterprise" - Commander W Riker
I'm excited to understand an older understanding of luck, I'm honestly very curious on how it differs.
It seems like awareness of the spiritual beings comes into play for sure.
How interesting. I was sitting in my car about 4 hours ago at work asking for a little luck... get home and this is the first thing I see
Gisli the Outlaw kind of reminds me of David Banner as the Hulk in the 70s TV show. He’s always wandering from place to place. Using aliases and taking crap work even though he’s a brilliant scientist all because he’s the Hulk and doesn’t understand how to control him.
I liked it for the crack about calling it dives and your name being Ocean. It made me chuckle. I would have liked it either way, but usually not to the end. First time i have done son in first minute or so.
I'm just curious why my different dnd characters seem to have different amounts of luck...funnily enough the one I basically made a norse pagan had the highest rolls!
I really enjoyed the video! I love how luck is tied to actions, but it's not a solely karma thing: not to mention all the other factors that play into it.
It really helps the modern sense of people who end up in bad spots must've done something terrible to end up there, hey?
Gives a whole new meaning to " wish me luck" lol
Started watching for the DND, kept watching for the compelling narrative, staying for the heathen content
That stinger!
You know this makes Will Wheaton's dice curse make sense.
I’ve always recognized that I had good luck in every aspect of life, except for wealth.
“Wyrd bið ful āræd. Fate is inexorable.”