All About Water Heaters | Ask This Old House
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- čas přidán 22. 07. 2024
- In this video, Ask This Old House plumbing and heating expert Richard Trethewey walks through all the various options available to homeowners for purchasing or renting a water heater
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Richard Trethewey teaches Kevin O’Connor all about water heaters. Since 90% of water heater purchases are emergencies, Richard thought a bit of homework on the topic would help avoid purchasing what’s available over the best water heater for the scenario. It’s not just discussion, either; Richard shows Kevin the gruesome interior of the shop’s water heater, comparing it to the other models available.
Types of Water Heaters:
Gas Storage Tank Water Heater [thd.co/3oSAr7l]
* Gas burner is underneath the tank. Cold water enters the glass-lined tank by the dip tube and goes to the bottom of the tank. Through the process of convention, hot water rises to the top of the tank.
* A flue runs through the tank and up out of the house to take away exhaust gases.
* Most popular in the USA
Electric Storage Tank Water Heater [thd.co/3Bl4hV5]
* The process is very similar to the gas water heater. A dip tube brings cold water to the bottom of the tank, where it is heated.
* There is no direct burner but there are electric elements to heat the water, just like the elements found in a coffee machine.
* There is no gas, so there is no need for a flue.
* Usually more expensive to run than a gas water heater.
Hybrid Water Heater [thd.co/3oAwqnP]
* The water in the tank is heated by a heat pump. It works like an air conditioner does - it moves heat from one location to another. It pulls heat from the surrounding air and, through fans and coils, heats that air even more, then dumps it into a tank to heat water.
* Can be two to three times more energy efficient than conventional electric resistance water heaters.
* They work best in a warmer climate.
Tankless Water Heater [thd.co/3Blda0S]
* Also known as “instantaneous” or “on demand” because they make hot water only when you need it.
* When the hot water tap is turned on, cold water travels through a pipe into the tankless heater, and a heating element (usually a gas burner, or sometimes an electric element) heats the water as it travels through the tank.
* Popular in Asia and most of Europe. They are starting to gain popularity in the USA.
Indirect Water Heater [thd.co/2WLuBsu]
* Has no direct flame. It relies on a boiler or furnace to produce its heat. It is typically a stainless steel-lined tank that holds a coiled heat exchanger. Boiler water is pumped into the coil through a pipe that connects the units. The coil transfers the heat into the water in the tank. The water from the boiler never mixes with the water in the tank.
* You’ll need to have a boiler in your home for this type of water heater.
Where to find it?
Richard explains different types of hot water heaters you can install in your home: gas storage tank water heater, electric storage tank water heater, hybrid tank water heater, tankless water heater and indirect water heater. Water heaters can be purchased at home centers or sourced through a local HVAC technician or sales representative.
The hybrid water heater was manufactured by Viessman Manufacturing [www.viessmann-us.com/en/produ...].
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All About Water Heaters | Ask This Old House
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I bought this water heater czcams.com/users/postUgkx8G49mV71sAzUl9shXyLW-r3XgHH9EVh1 for use in my bus conversion. I installed it under my kitchen sink and it is fed by a high efficiency on-demand LP water heater. It is both a backup hot water source as well as a water saving device since we have hot water on demand rather than having to wait for the gas on demand water heater to finish its ignition cycle. I decided on this water heater due to the fact that it only draws 1300watts when it's ON instead of the 1500 watts that most Water heaters this size draw. In an RV a couple hundred watts can be a big deal. With very low standby losses, I don't have to worry about excessive power consumption. When propane is not available for our gas water heater, in conjunction with our low flow shower head there is enough hot water available to shower, albeit we won't be taking "hotel showers." Also very happy with the recovery rate of this water heater. Granted, it is quite small, but it does exactly what we need it to do.
The video shows several different HWHTrs - Therefore, no one has any idea what you’re talking about.
Doh!
Perfect explanation! I'm a home inspector and have learned so much from Richards style of explaining. Thank you!
I’m a master plumber and own a plumbing business in Wisconsin. Tankless heaters still have lots of issues. I deal with Rinnai and while I certainly like the product it has plenty of expensive issues.
I want to replace my water heater. What’s your recommendation? Gas, electric or hybrid. Thanks
@@JaymesWebbs just a standard Gas heater. Rheem or Bradford White.
@@michaeljohnson2922 thank you sir
@@michaeljohnson2922 ^^ this. a standard Bradford White, with sediment drained annually, will last a really really long time
People need to really check what they are getting into before spending the big bucks. I can't believe how many top brand tankless water heaters I pull out and trash at customers expense. Not from lack of maintenance & many are less than 4yrs old.
Great and very important information, it's good to know what's available out there. Thank you gents!👊
Have had an indirect for 7 years running off my Lochinvar high efficiency boiler. Can't be beat.
the one electronic water heater they forget about is the plastic heater from marathon, it may cost more then a metal glass lined but it out lives all of them just a simple replacement of the element every 10-30yrs, depending on your water condition. but thanks for all you guys do on this old house I enjoy watching and learning new stuff
Rheem makes the Marathon and the tank is guaranteed for life.
If you have one you have to make sure you don’t have high water pressure. If your area has high water pressure you have to be testing the pressure regulating valve regularly maybe 2-3 times a year. Those plastic tanks are very sensitive the high pressure and/or expansion. And of course the warranty doesn’t cover failures covered by high pressure or expansion. I’ve had to replace quite a few in our area that Rheem would not cover under warranty.
That indirect water heater is awesome
Great illustration guys, that is why I love the show and subscribed to not miss any content. :)
Just installed a tankless water heater at my dads house, thing is awesome
I love my A.O. Smith tankless electric water heater.
many places in the world use water heaters at the point of use. In Brazil, my wife's house there has individual heaters placed on the lines where the water is actually used. Each unit then only runs when the water is actually used from that faucet/shower/etc. Seemed strange to me, and most of them are based on a 210/240 volt electric service, but they do add a level of efficiency where electricity is not as "cheap" as it is in the USA (yes, compared to many places, it is still cheap here)... I brought one back to install an outside shower near my pool so we could rinse in relative comfort instead of always getting a blast of COLD water. Like many places that widely use MINI-SPLIT air conditioners, there are other ways of heating water that are in use in other places other than a systemic system of a tankless water heater or a water heater tank, both of which distribute heated water over a longer system. This point of service system reduces delay in being able to access hot water, and if one goes bad, you can replace it for a lot less than a tank or whole home tankless heater.
Great video, super useful
i have a tankless system, its awesome. my last one failed after 10-12 years because i didnt do the maintenance.
Indirect water heater in my home since January 1993. It’s over 29 years old. One of my better purchases when I switched from all electric heat back to oil furnace fixed hot water. It wasn’t cheap at the time, but still in service.
Forced hot water…not fixed.
I have a tankless water heater and it really dropped our propane bill (by 40%) and the peace of mind that we can all shower and never run out is so worth it. $2300 installed. Love it and recommend it.
I might believe 20%
@@iceman846 It really depends on usage. Some families gas usage will increase. I’ve found that if I give people endless hot water they typically use more hot water.
@@Whodey-hd2dd Also depends if it is induction heater or gas heater.
but compared to a regular gas heater does it pay for itself in how many years?
Thanks for putting the price. Compared to the old-school ones, that’s a hefty outlay of $$$.
What is the warranty on it?
Kevin’s so funny, so nice!
Here in Canada, our winters are too cold to leave a hotwater tank in the near outdoors. In Montreal, our garages are part of the building Our homes have basements, part of which is reserved for furnance and A/C,
One trick I learned to do to save money is to have the hot water connection to the house follow the S trap idea. What is the S trap idea? It is an S shaped connection to the hot output of the tank. .
When no water is flowing from the basement area into the upper floors of the house (days and overnight), hot water, by convection wants to go up the pipes from the tank in the basement, and in those same pipes, cold water cooled from the connections on the above floors, flows back into the hot water tank. In effect, we have a hot-water heat-loss. A S trap using the flexible shielded hose connection, has the hot water having to flow down before it goes up into the upper floors. The top of that S trap is hot, as it connects to the tank, but the other end of that S trap is at room temperature UNTIL taps are turned on. Yes, hot water does not flow up when the taps are off. Law of physics --cold water is more dense than warm water.
Our home, and many around Montreal, are "all electric" homes. Our standard hot water tank is an insulated Canadian norm, a 60 gallon tank with three heater elements. The sequencing is top heater (3800 wh, middle is at 3000wh along with the 800watt lower element and then only the lower 800wh, under thermostat control.
The Canadian tanks are sized to 61 gallons Canadian, corresponding to 74 gallons American.
When the upper element turns off, the two lower elements are turned on concurrently. When the middle element turns off, the lower element, also thermostatically controlled heats on and off at 800 watts recovery.
It is important to have that S trap to prevent undesired convection currents.
The S trap idea generally pays for itself within a year.
Here is an additional information. If your hotwater tank is inside the house proper, check with your insurance company about coverage for tank water leakage. My insurer, and other insurers, demand a tank replacement after ten years of use or to have a tray under the hot water tank to capture a water leak. The tray must have a leak detector (similar in appearance to a fire/smoke detector). Our water supply has low calcium, and from experience, our tanks last about 15-20 years before a leak occurs. Re elements, we expect one replacement during the life of the tank.
This heat trap idea was even in the rheem water heater manual we just installed. The plumber knew nothing about it and was quite surprised by me demanding this.
Here in texas they stick most of them in the attic. Its not fun replacing these things especially in the summer when its 140 up there.
Very very informative.
HI TOH ,we had a brand new electric hot water heater put in our apt. this summer , it was so built up with limestone , I think that's what ruins a lot of water heaters ! 🤐🛠
Fantastic video on water heaters guy! Keep it up :)
Thanks for the info😉
I've got the indirect model. Stainless steel with insulation wrapped around it on the outside. Kock wood, it lasts another 20 years (yes, right now it's 20 years old). I love it.
Kock wood indeed
I have an indirect also. They last indefinitely since it's essentially just a big thermos bottle. There's no heating element and no galvanic action. The only disadvantage is that when my teenager is in the shower for an hour, the boiler and burner is running for most of that time also.😂
@@Skammerd It's just me, so nothing to worry about. I do remember growing up and dad was always yelling about all of us being in the bathroom for so long. Well, he used to think we were in the shower all that time. We (it was 4 boys and mom & dad) each had our time slot. Lucky me, I had the first one (the joys of being first born), but all we had for a water heater was the small tank in the boiler itself, no 40-gallon puppy I've got. Of course, after the 4 of us moved out it was just him and mom, so no running out of hot water.
I’m going to replace my water heater. Which one you guys recommend? Thank you
Burkay systems are the best indirect hot water system
I just replaced my water heater from ‘83…. Was interested in a tankless but my old house needed the breaker upgraded in amps first which was too much of an investment
After a month of 1 minute hot showers from my existing 20 year old electric hot water heater I said forget it and went and purchased another standard electric how water heater. I have researched out the wazoo of what type to get. The tankless is more than I want to spend right now and I don't want to do the required maintenance each year. The other option was the Hybrid but it seems the current Rheem model has a fan issue that has this annoying buzz that would drive me nuts. Their support has been utterly, utterly useless so I replaced like for like to be done with it. Maybe in another 10 years the issue will be addressed.
I've had the best success with the good old gas heaters. I just buy one slightly bigger than the recommended size so I always have plenty of hot water. I just replaced one that was 25 years old.
If u dont have a properly filtered water source that is maintained you will have nothing but problems with on demand heaters.
@@meme-yc4ks That's true. I have hard water where I live and its pretty much a requirement to install either a water softener or water filter alongside thost tankless water heaters.
Just installed my 50 gallon hot water heater. First long shower I've had in months. I have to laugh though because the charts say 50 gallons is for a 3-5 people household. Well I live alone and after letting the tank heat for 2.5 hours I used every bit of hot water in my first shower. I would say it was a 15-20 minute shower. How is a 50 gallon tank supposed to support a family of 5 if I used all the hot water myself? 20(minutes)/5(people) is like what 4 minute showers for each person?
@@notta3d LOL because people don't take 20 min showers. Maybe you should clip your toe nails in the toilet, beat off in a sock, and shave in the sink. My 50g gas water heater served a family of 5 with absolutely no issues.
Perfect overview, well done guys
Water heaters used to stand on legs. Now, all heaters sit flat on the floor, so that if your basement should flood 2-3 inches -- common enough, given the storms we've been experiencing -- your pilot, thermocouple and burner assemblies will all be ruined. No plumber here will repair a heater which has been in water, and after every storm, they gouge prices up to $1400 a unit.
So why did they stop elevating heaters off the floor? To sell more heaters? I've managed to fix mine using inner-city engineering (nothing's blown up so far), but it's a pain in the keyster.
I been reading comments on this video on tankless and I'm considering one for my first house I plan to start building for myself in the next couple years assuming the economy plays in my favor. I'll be building in the country on two acres with a propane tank installed, I'm wondering how long the fuel savings will take to pay for the difference between the cost of a typical 40 gallon tank type unit and a tankless? Just myself and my wife, no teenagers. The house is going to be around 900 - 1000 sqaure feet, 2 bed one bath ranch.
Is there anytrhing to stop it from rusting through ? I don't think so and certainly for most people seems the most frequent failure . Look like my ancient one (well over twenty years old ) is leaking from several spots . Geez , looks like even from exhaust stack on top along with exhaust bracket screw hole .. I didn't even think it could leak from there . looks like replacement of my gas heater 30 gallon at least
Enjoyed segment on hot water heaters. Was hoping you would cover HE gas with a powered draft
Great info
Indirect amerol boilermate, lasted 26 yrs just started to leak last week, Can you recommend other brands. Hard to fine and expensive? Loved this brand, Never have a problem with NO hot water lol
So if the hybrid water heater is pulling heat out of the space you heat, meaning the furnace has to resupply that heat to the room, does it really save anything. Maybe in the garage is ok, but something to think about if the water heater is inside the house.
Informative👍
Our pilot light goes out recently ( 3X a week or once a week). The heaters 15 years old. The landlord changed the pilot light unit and thermal coupling- pilot light turns off occasionally. .....
Just changed bad element on my electric water heater now the panel not turning on but have power to my elements but no hot water either. An I checked my reset switch. But iam lost dont know if control panel
I have hard well water. Should I change my anode rod early?
I recently bought a house with a gas water tank heater that's over 10 years old. This video is perfect for helping me understanding the options available before it inevitably fails. Thanks guys!
I'm getting solar panels for my house so that hybrid electric water tank is really catching my eye for an eco-friendly alternative to my current gas tank.
What kind of solar panels you’re getting? I got a quote from Tesla for $90K.
Also are they really good? I live in Washington State and it’s raining or cloud sky
@@JaymesWebbs I ended up going with Sunrun as my provider for my panels. I believe LG made the panels if I recall correctly. Instead of buying them outright I did their Power Purchase Agreement where you essentially lease to own it at the end of 25 years. Got panels on both sides of my house because there is a lot of shade from trees on my property. Had to really push for wanting 100% energy needs met with solar to get them to go for both sides of the house
@@andy_lincoln
Good to know that. Thank you
How can I change a corroded pressure valve from water heater? I was told by a plumber not to change the corroded valve. Any advice would be appreciated.
I have one of those hybrid water heaters. The heat pump only setting is very efficient and provides plenty of hot water for normal use. The newer ones that are smart enabled have geofencing and schedule learning technologies in them so it’s not heating when no one is home or at times hot water is not needed. Whenever possible, heat pumps are best.
Absolutely. hands down the best option for probably 95% of people
My hot water tank has not been maintained for over 10 years, is the water still safe to use until we can get the proper maintenance? thank you.
Richard, I installed a new electric water heater and it makes a lot of noise. Popping and cracking. I don't understand why.
To say the tank heaters are on 24/7/365 is a little misleading. They heat the tank to it's set temperature then standby. The tanks heater isn't constantly heating the water like the 24/7/365 comment insinuates. Once the tank is heated the heater doesn't kick on again until the temperature in tank falls below a certain point. If not in use water heaters hold their heat for quite awhile.
Exactly. I came here to say the same thing. No water tank is heating 24/7/365
@@paulreed563 ... not ON but MAINTAINING 24/7/365
Hey captain CAPS LOCK, Richs words were ON 24/7/365, watch at 3:26 to 3:28
Well most are on 24/7/365. If it has a standing pilot it will be using gas 24/7/365. That’s the main reason power vent heaters have a lower operating cost than atmospheric vent heaters.
Some tankless water heater actually have a very small tank built in, so some water can always be efficiently kept hot and there's no delay when demanding hot water
Navien npe 240a has the “buffer tank.” I believe that Navien has a patent on it.
You still have a run of pipe between the tank and the fixture that is holding water which is cooling by the minute. If that water has sat for awhile, you won't have hot water until that cool pipe water flushes down the drain. This occurs on all water heater designs, unless you have a recirculation loop.
Which is better, a ceramic coated tank or a stainless steel tank?
AO vs American are ones I found.
Good video-
Have a hot water tank n a heater... Gas if heat is off does it effect hot water tank?
The issues Ive heard with the tankless is that they keep upgrading them, and parts on the v2.1 might not be compatible with v2.0, and you have to find a proprietary part if something were to fail.
Hey I actually changed my last one just because it was 11 yrs old, still worked....finally in my 50s I'm being proactive
I just moved into a house that has an old water heater. It’s working fine and no leaks, so I was going to change the anode rod. But trying to flush the system it basically trickled out of my hose and took hours and wasn’t even drained yet. So yeah it’s definitely screwed but I don’t want to risk breaking the rod. Just going to let it work until it goes.
If it’s pretty old tank style that has never been flushed, it’s typically not a great idea to flush it at this point. I’ve seen a lot of 8+ yr old water heaters start leaking months after they were finally flushed for the first time.
What does the Spanish WBC nation baseball team say when they hit a home run? "Water Heater".. C'mon, that's funny⚾️👍
My water heater leaked last year for about an hour. I was home and had no idea. Had about 3 inches of water in a 20x30 area. I freaked out. Luckily my neighbor is a plumber and put in a tankless. Theres just something about a 50 gallon tank of water in my house just sitting there, one day will fail. Luckily my tank flooded onto concrete floor so no big loss. But if yours is located on regular wooden flooring I would highly recommend switching it out for a tankless. Yes, its more expensive upfront, but just knowing that its not a ticking time bomb waiting to explode and the fact it will use less energy and save money every month really makes it worth it. Be sure to check your tank when it was manufactured because most only are rated for just 6 years, some are 9 or 12. And if your water heater is past its due date get it replaced as soon as possible to avoid a further headache in the future because unlike me your water heater may start leaking if youre at work or in bed.
I will move my water heater to a place where I can avert that kind of damage.
They sell these really cheap water alarm devices that you can place on the floor by anything that could leak (water heater, clothes washer line, refrigerator icemaker line). If any water touches the two electrodes, they emit a loud alarm. Yes, you have to be home to hear them, but it greatly increases the chances of catching a leak early so you can shut the water off. I think a pack of three of them can be had for less than $30. The battery in them lasts for years.
I have an electric 5500 SS watt water heater all electric and mine is now 14 years old and still doing fine and the power it takes is not much. Course we’re not nuts in our house meaning-We don’t take two or three showers each day like some of these crazy to do. 🙄🙄🙄. The heat pump might work but it will cost ya! Will it last longer? Idk.
Europe and Japan always gets the best stuff man.
Nighthawk, helloFrom ENGLAND There was a company called ASCOT, we had one in JAMAICA BWI from the 1950s, in our bathroom, it DID NOT HAVE A STANDING PILO so lit it off WHEN YOU USED IT But my DADSyounger brother had a much larger one for the whole house, with a standing pilot,. Now in the 60s,,or so there was a JAPANESE ONE HERE CALLED ‘POLOMA PAK, RHEEM bought it out putting their name on them, they are ALSO used as small WH heaters too.🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
absolutely love my indirect, installed in 08 and been perfect! it’s so simple, the furnace does all the work and this is just another zone tacked onto it. I never ask for more hot water it fills my big jacuzzi perfectly and pretty economical, my furnace runs on oil so in the summertime the water heater is the only thing that keeps the furnace running, one tank will last me an entire summer.
I live in Ireland and these are absolutely everywhere. They also pretty much last forever as there's nothing really to go wrong.
@@pjmorgan exactly! all it is just a big insulated thermos bottle, these are finally starting to gain ground in the US. An excellent option for people who have hydronic heating.
wrong there is alot that can go wrong after 12 my tankless was giviving me problems.There were two componnets the tech adviced replacing,those alone were almost 800.00 w/o labor.Stick with a tank and draw water off about a gallon once a week. and change the anode.The little gas savings are overwhelmed when one of the components goes bad.Not cheap especially if a tech has to get involved
@@bigwoody4704 this video isn’t about tankless…
@@ajc5869 my bad i opened another window.But they're great until a component goes south then pricey as hell.According to contractor websites I went to
What if you live in limestone central?
Nice
Thanks. I hope TOH is monitoring this and can answer a couple of questions. Which electric water heaters have anode rods that expose the hex head to make change-outs easy? I have ruled out everything, but simple electric with extra insulation and (hopefully) two anode rods. I have kept my current WH going by changing rods, flushing, adding curved tube, etc. It was a "contractor special," is 22 years old and ready for a change. Why would I buy a heat pump hybrid? The WH will be in the garage. Wouldn't it rob the garage of heat in the winter and make it hotter in the summer? Thank you for your reply, if you are able to post an answer.
As a possible help for others, I found googling Water Heater Rescue to be a great resource for maintenance.
People complain about tankless yearly maintenance but a traditional tank needs yearly maintenance too. It has to be flushed and the anode rod needs to be replaced every 3 years or so depending on your water.
Putting a heat pump model in a garage is a great place for it because I'm the summer when it is hot, it will help to cool your garage and has a ton of heat to pull from the air.
My home insurance company requires me to change the tank every 10 years. Failure to do so will result in their not coverin tank produced leak damage.
If you are worried about the heat loss in the area of a hybrid water heater just think of it as a dehumidifier. It’s really not going to take away that much energy/heat from that area. You could also always use the vent kit and have it use outside air as well. The hybrids are really nice and will absolutely save a lot of money on operating costs. As far as anode rods in newer heaters. Most of them make it hard to get to the anode nowadays. I’ve found it just easier to get the anodes that come on the bottom of the hot water nipple. Is a little extra work when replacing it due to having to repair the water line but is typically quicker.
Richard how come my electric water heater leaking?
And the prices of them?
How much energy they use?
TOH, WHAT BRAND OF’HYBRID’ W/H WAS THAT, FYI the ONLY one that DOES NOT HAVE THE REFRIGERANT LOOP INTO THE WATER, BUT A SHRINK FIT PLATE COIL. ( condenser ) around the tank, is STELBRON THEY COST MORE but is NOT A HYBRID, although it has a n electric element , as backup. , There is a brand called MUELLER, which captures the heat of compression for water heating for supermarkets, made the same way as STELBTRON ELECTRO, NOTHING TOUCHES WATER INSIDE. CHEEERS 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
how does a tank water heater not have the same "water sandwich" problem as a tankless??... there still cold water in the lines between the faucet and the tank
I believe it's when the water in the lines is already warm from someone else using it, then you go to use some hot water 20 minutes later and you get "warm - cold - warm - and finally hot"
The tank is simply "warm - keeps getting hotter".
If you start from cold lines then it's as you imagine it.
There is still a "water sandwich" with a tank water heater. It is just less noticeable because the water coming out of the tank is already hot. Tankless heaters take a little bit of time to get the water up to temperature because the heat exchanger needs to get up to temperature. Keep in mind though it is only a few seconds difference. At least in my experience it was only a few seconds different going from a tank heater to tankless.
@@Th3Su8 incorrect, the tankless heaters do have a tank, a tiny tank, mine only has about half a gallon worth of water in it and is just there to act as a buffer to accommodate for the time that it takes for the burner to get started so that instant hot water comes out of the tank when needed.
(cost saving 1) keeping half a gallon of water hot almost costs nothing compared to a full sized tank.
what I believe is the difference is, what I've seen in US based houses hot water is constantly pumped around the house, instant hot water is available at every hot water tap, now that is a huge huge warm water waste as there are non or poor isolated pipes everywhere constantly leaking heat. Now I do not know what water costs in the US, but over here its much cheaper to let the tap run for 15 seconds and waist the water then to have hot water available at every tap 24/7 (cost saving 2)
Last difference comes that 1 m3 (cubic meter) of gas delivers around 8kWh of heat to warm the water, while with electric you actually need 8kWh (at 240 volts) of energy to warm the same amount of water (this is for traditional heating, not using a heat pump), in other words if 1 m3 of gas is 8 times cheaper then 1kWh of electric power (which it is in my country) the gas heating is cheaper the electric heating (cost saving 3)
@@BartvandeMosselaar not all tankless have a buffer tank. The reason for cold water sandwich is by the fact that with a tankless it doesn’t start heating until water is ran. When you turn on a faucet it has to recognize water usage which is done with flow sensors and then turn on and start heating the water. While that all happens extremely quick it does not happen 100% instantaneously. So a small amount of water will get through. Some use a buffer tank to eliminate this. It keeps a tiny tank hot at all times. Some just delay the purge of hot gases from the heat exchanger. With any water heater the water in the lines traveling to the fixtures will cool down during non usage. The only way to stop that is with a recirculating system. But it’s still never 100% to every fixture. As that water cools in the lines there will always be cool water you must get out before you receive hot. With a recirc system it just dramatically lowers it if done correctly.
My old faithful gas feedwater heater was 25 years old when she finally failed this year - talk about return on investment.
ThisToad hi, there was a gas 40 gallon tank when we bought the home, 3 years later it died, so I replaced with a 50 gal 12 year 2 anode model, it died CHRISTMAS DAY some years later, anyhow ,my current one is several years now, so in the 54 years, w have been through a few., 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
Richard did an ATOH a few years ago which featured a Tankless that did some sort of pre-circulation (not to be confused with the system which continuously pumps HW though the house, using any HWH) that he said eliminated the "Ssndwich" effect mentioned in this video, which as some have pointed out, may well be very OLD! What happened to that technology? Again, this was not the same as the long standing and likely expensive to operate continuous circulation system.
This is a Navien technology. It uses an internal recirculation pump and buffer tank to eliminate the cold water sandwich. Water in the 0.5 gallon buffer tank is recirculated periodically and maintained at your set temperature continuously. It also eliminates the minimum 0.5 GPM requirement to activate hot water. I have one in my home (NPE-180a) and it works great.
Most tankless have some type of system to deal with cold water sandwich nowadays. Navien has the buffer tank and internal recirc. Which is nice but also naturally uses a little more gas. It also requires an expansion tank if you have a closed system. Rheem just holds of the purge of air flow through the heat exchanger for like 5 minutes. This keeps everything warm and allows it to cool at pretty much the same rate the water sitting in the hot line does. I believe most other manufacturers use something similar to the Rheems. All of them have their pros and cons.
Not sure why he thinks the hot water delay issue does not apply to tanks as it does to the tankless....it has to come from the tank which is often quite a ways away from the faucets as well. Often you can put the tankless closer to the intended use area.
the bottom line is cost total cost to install water heater and cost to run it over the years? also, all those fancy high tech water heaters break down way more than a simple one that is easy to fix.
What if you use a traditional, but small, tank water heater with a circulation pump to keep the water hot and close to the faucets but with a tankless water heater providing water into the tank water heater? The tank water heater would provide hot water quickly and the tankless would be able to take over and keep the water going into the tank water heater hot enough that it could shut down and not need to come on under extended use. Seems like the best of both worlds.
Most tankless have a recirculating options. Some even have the ability to learn your usage and make its own schedule for the recirc pump based on your usage. Other like the naviens have recirc and a booster tank inside the unit. So basically your idea just built into the unit. Pros and cons to all the different systems.
"It's not something to sneeze at" lol
I don’t understand how a dehumidifier which is just moisture is going to somehow help with efficiency that was explained poorly for the hybrid heater
So if i understand the indirect system, it's just a big thermos keeping the water hot, as Richard said, it gets it's hot water from another source(hence the indirect name)
MARKU Mark, the INDIRECT W/H USES BOILER WATER THROUGH A COIL TO HEAT THE DOMESTIC WATER IN ANOTHER COIL AS another ZONE 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
@@flybyairplane3528 Why did you write in caps? did you forget it was on? or you mad bro? (not to mention the flags)
@@markymarc136 I HAVE EYE PROBLEMS, BUT I ALWAYS SIGN OF WITH 4 AMERICAN FLAGS, NEXT TIME ILLUSE CHINESE FLAGS AS YOU SEEM TO HAVE A PROBLEM WITH AMERICAN ONES, BUT WHATS IT TO YOU? 🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳🇺🇸
Guys you spoke about a tankless water heater years ago and today. Can you regulate it with a timer so, when no one is at home there is no need for the tank to produce the hot water? It about saving more money. I loved this. Thank you very much.
no need for a timer because it only uses electricity when the water runs.
The newest tankless hot water heaters from Rheem learn your habits of using water and only cycle at those times, some also come with a circulating pump built in and circulate the water when necessary to keep the water lines hot.
@@kenhersh909 wow thank you answering my question. Thank you very much. Have a great weekend Ken.
My hot water is often tepid in the morning after an extended period of not using it. I frequently have to "wake up" my traditional gas water heater by running the hot water for 5 or so minutes, then waiting for 30 minutes for the hot water to be fully heated. Any ideas why this happens?
Thermostat in the gas control valve could be starting to fail. The first thing I would try is flushing the unit. More than likely will not fix anything. With that said it’s pretty rare but I have seen units where there is enough sediment and the pilot light alone will keep that sediment warm enough and kind of tricking the thermostat into thinking it’s at the right temperature. Then once you run cold water and introducing very cold water into the bottom of the water heater it fires up.
Very interesting, i have a electric hot water heater, we just switched over to gas from oil heat. I'm thinking of getting a gas hot water heater or the on demand hot water heater.
I was goi g to switch from gas water heater to electric. Now after I read your comment, I’m wondering why you want to switch to gas? Is electric bad? Thanks
@@JaymesWebbs it's very expensive, i always had a gas hot water heater. With the electric, the element takes a while to heat the water
@@JaymesWebbs electric typically cost more to operate. A 50 gal standard electric will cost about $200-$250 more a year to operate than a standard 50 gal natural gas water heater.
It’s on when the the water is colder than what you set it.
What he didnt mention...you HAVE to upgrade your gas meter to a larger one IF you get an on demand one...most meters wont support the BTU of a water heater AND a furnace running simultaneously FYI
This is not the case anymore in most homes, some units run fine on .5" of water column and a 1/2" gas line, some of the larger units do require a gas meter that supplies the house with a 2lb. gas meter and a 3/4" gas line. It was as you stated for many years though.
@@kenhersh909 hi NAVION units use1/2” pipe for gas supply maybe RENAII too, ? I got notice from my utility that E & G COSTS ARE UP THIS SEASON !,, years ago I installed s GRANDFOSS CIRCULAR PUMP with the hoses & fitting in my lav for upstarts full bathroom& another al my 1/2 lav downststais, for the sink & kitchen sink on that run, has a timer, works VERY WELL 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
The size of gas line that is used is irrelevant when it comes to size of the meter. Around here most homes have a 250k btu gas meter. Most tankless are 199k btus. If your furnace is larger than 50k btus there is gonna be issues. The tankless that allow 1/2” gas piping has the Venturi effect gas valves. It’s basically gonna suck the gas in to make up for not having enough gas to the unit. The problem is then that the furnace will not be getting the right gas flow if both are running. Everything might seem to work ok but some pretty bad things can happen when gas appliances are not getting the right gas flow.
I have been out of the country twice in the past 7 years for 12 days each time. I have a 50 gallon tank water heater. I turned off the water and gas each time I went. I traveled the last part of september into early october. The water heater is in my climitized basement set for 75 degrees. When I came back the first time, my water heater seemed to have hot water still. I was even able to take a shower. The second time, the same thing. There's nothing magical about my heater. It held heat for 12 days each time. I should have recorded it. It's a tank type for me. Tankless...the payback period is too long to break even and you have to de-scale them.
Nevermind that they require monstrous amounts of current.
Yes, and the venting requirements for a tankless are a constraint as well. They need a completely separate vent out through the wall, but can't be near any windows or doors. That makes them not feasible for little places where they otherwise would be a great fit, like condos.
That's interesting. Surprising that it stayed hot that long but the manufacturers have been working to improve efficiency so clearly they've done a good job. Anyone worried about running out of hot water from multiple showers should consider just getting a slightly larger normal gas heater.
@@jgood005 I'm having my tankless heater put outside.
John B, HIbut what part of the US are you, for that complaint ? But wherever, whenever installing any, you should buy a WEBSTONE VALVE ASSEMBLY, so as to be able to run a cleaning solution through it to remove minerals from it without having to CUT PIPES! to do so 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
So how does a indirect water tank keep water hot in the summer if your boiler never comes on?
the boiler will come on to heat the tank of water. In the long run it's better to keep a boiler slightly warm in the summer to prevent corrosion from moisture.
Richard.......I have a vexing problem. I bought my current electric Kenmore water heater 21 years ago when I bought my house. It was obviously a good choice. I want to find a replacement electric heater, but if I want anything with more than a 6-year warranty, then I have to move up from 2 4500-watt elements to 2 5500-watt elements. That would be fine with my current breaker, but the gauge of the wire won't support them safely. That means I need to hire an electrician to pull wire just to get a better quality heater. Any thoughts?
Check with your home insurance policy about tank leakage. My insurance company requires me to replace the tank after 10 years of service. I have two tanks. One that is there for 15 years and a new two year old tank that has the 3 elements. I have a rubber tray about 3 feet x 3 feet placed under the new tank when it was installed. When the old tank fails, I will put such a tray under the replacement. In each tray, I can put a water detect alarm, which, if I do that, will satisfy the insurance company that I have a water leakage alarm. The batteries within the alarms are changed once every three years. If the leak occurs, a loud prolonged shreak is omitted.
@@lsatenstein Thank you...good information.
Bradford Whites electric heaters come standard with a 6yr tank and parts warranty but you can purchase the warranty extra soon which takes it to 10yrs. So you should be able to get a 10yr warranty 4500 watt electric water heater
If you have an electric water heater and do not have a timer on it then you are an idiot. I got one from Home Depot and installed it myself. You do not need to keep it on 24 hours a day. My power is most expensive from 3-6pm so I got a timer to ensure it never came on during this time period. Then I realized that I only really needed it on for a few hours in the evening (I live alone and am retired) so most of the time the heater is not on and there is always enough hot water during the day. A timer lets you customize your power usage.
The tankless would not necessarily be more efficient. Back when I had multiple teenagers in the house, they would want to shower until the hot water ran out.
Biggest drawback of the tankless water heaters is the expensive annual flushing maintenance. That costs $200 a year and HAS to be done. A regular water heater never needs to be flushed
"options available to homeowners for purchasing or renting a water heater"
Renting? Who is renting water heaters?
very common
@@bvilleD Please explain.
Around here people rent water softeners but I can't figure it out. For one year of rental you can buy a system that will be trouble free for a decade.
> Who is renting water heaters?
Canadians do :(
@@justinandout I mean, we have options to rent or buy
He didn't say how often you have to maintain the thankless and how much??
Once a year and 300 dollars to your favorite plumber
They forgot about tankless coils on boilers in this demo
I really want to get a heat-pump water heater, but oh my goodness they need to fix the footprint issues. I can't see any reason why they can't work out a stubby variant. Make a version that is wider, not taller.
because wider doesn't fit through most doorways. (and still leave your fingers intact)
Taller helps maintain a proper temperature gradient in the tank which helps efficiency but also means you can run off more water before the temperature drops too much.
@@spencerwilton5831 Interesting, thank you!
Tankless water heater. My electricity company does not offer gas in my area. I have two options to go with electricity or propane in my new home. I Like to know the pro and cons between each...
@@Lenser what brand name and model
The down side of an electric is the size of electrical service feeding the house needs to be 200 amp or more. For new homes it isn't a big deal. Older homes though is a different story. My house originally had a 60 amp service. The downside of a gas unit is the extra piping for the exhaust air, intake air (some people just use air from inside the house), and of course the gas piping. All of these pipes require a bit of space to be run in, whereas electrical wiring takes up less space. If you are building a new home then any of these downsides can be mitigated before construction begins by working with your architect/builder to ensure it is accounted for.
Basically both types work the same and generally are equal in capacity. It just comes down to what you want to pay for, higher electricity bills or a combination of electricity and gas/propane. Propane and natural gas prices usually fluctuate a lot more than electricity. However, if you have your own propane tank you can fill up when the prices are lower to make it through the higher priced heating seasons.
Just a little food for thought. I hope some of it helps you.
@@Th3Su8 Thank you kindly for sharing well thought out as well.
@@Lenser The 6 KW unit for our 2 master bath lavatories only is an EcoSmart. I installed it myself probably 10 years ago without any problem (FYI big romex 6-3 wire is a BEAR to route and work with--just used it again for my electric car receptacle) since but they have an ugly and unfriendly warning that you get no warranty unless a plumber signs off as installing it. Raspberries to them for that.
use a hybrid tank. better than tankless and way cheaper
So if your heat pump water heats goes out do you call a plumber or hvac guy.
It could be either unless they have knowledge of both.
How do you know if you have hard water?
old post but theres water hardness tests you can buy at stores to test your water
I wonder how efficient of cost is the electrical tankless water heater than gas or oil water heater.
You don't want to go there
Really depends where you are from. If you are in a cold weather area then the electric tankless are very good. Even some of the larger units are giving very low gallon per minute flow rates and take a lot of electric.
An energy auditor told me that tankless electric water heaters will not work in the northeast. It is too cold. Only gas powered ones are strong enough. Is that true?
There's people here in Ct that have them. Water is usually 50-55 degrees no matter where you live so it should work. Just need enough power.
They work ok but heat pump/hybrid ones are way better unless you dont have a basement or garage
Iam annoyed.. my furnace stoped working the company gives me a qoate for a new furnace and Ac ok i get it mine was over 30 years old Now they are saying i needna new water heater i currently have a conventional water heater. They said they stoped making those that now they work with electric or power vent water heater that my house has old chimany pipe and they dont work that way anymore... and if i want to keep my old water heater that they will need to look at my chimany pipe and it might need fixing .. so they told me 1st i had 0 options but to just get a knew water heater electic cuz it will save me money? Now suddenly they can work with my old water heater but have to look at the chimany pipe... and they dont do it like that anymore... so im here trying to learn... i dont think electic water heaters r good cuz lights go out u cant have hot water. While my conventional one with gas gives me hot water even if there is an outage.
So I have watched video that uses the AC unit to warm a pool. Why can’t that be done with hot water heater?
It could be done but most of our country uses AC only for a few months out of the year. The idea of using the AC to heat the pool just happens to work out better because it's the same season for both.
Some people in Florida are using gas tankless water heaters to heat pool water, I assume that they do it elsewhere I haven't seen that here yet.
@@kenhersh909 ... you'd be amazed at what's used in one part of the country and not in another. 25 years ago the company I worked for was installing heat exchangers to tie pool heating into the home heating system so a single boiler could do the house in the winter and the pool all summer. What I have been seeing more of in the last 10 years is a heat pump (looks like an AC unit) to keep the pool warm. I've probably seen more heat pumps than solar systems but that likely has to do with New England weather.
Wow my grandma's water heater at her house is from 1989 and is still going. She has never done any maintenance to it and everything is original including the Anonde rod.
My grandmother is dead and doesn’t need hot water
We bought a 30 year old house and the water heater was manufactured in 1989.... still works great!
Must be soft water.
Is there any reason why Lowe’s or Home Depot charge more for the Install than the water heater costs? I’m talking like $1200 just for the install..... that sounds insane to me.
Just do it yourself. Super easy. The hardest part is draining and moving the old one. Earthquake straps depending on jurisdiction and don't forget expansion tank.
Look for a reputable local handyman to do it, much less.
@@oldtwinsna8347 in a lot of areas you have to pull a permit. I’m in Ohio and most cities or counties require you to be licensed, insured, and bonded to pull permits. Home owners can pull permits but when they pull a home owners permit then only people that live in the home can do the work.
You should be asking why tankless water heaters are banned in new homes in the UK and will banned in all homes for new installations in due course.
Because the instantaneous power use is horrible for the grid and gas infrastructure.
PeterM, simply because of the PRICE OF GAS HAS GONE THROUGH THE ROOF, JUST AS HOMES DONOT HAVEANY,OR INSUFFICIENT INSULATION IN HOMES THERE, NOW THEY ARE PUSSHING HEAT PUMPS TO HEAT YOUR HOT WATER FOR HEAT, MOST APPLICATIONS ARE VERY SAD, HITH PEOPLE NOT FULLY KNOWING WHAT THEY ARE DOING , I KEEP UP WITH CASES OVER THER,E
🏴🇬🇧🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
No condensing tanked water heaters ahhh man
They are all the same, any appliance after about 2010 good luck getting 5yrs out of it. used to be a law they had to last a certain amount of time but they let it fail a few years ago
Tankless water heaters are not instantaneous… also gas water heaters are no longer more efficient than the electric tank
Gas has never been more efficient than electric water heaters. Standard electric water heaters are like 92% efficient. But gas is cheaper to operate. I’m not sure what it’s like where you live but to my knowledge most places in the US gas will still have a lower operating cost. If I remember correctly a 50 gal natural gas atmospheric vent water heater is about $275 a year vs about $475 a year for 50 gallon standard electric.
The takeaway comes down to cost
Why did you fail to include whole house electric tankless water heaters by the German company Stiebel Eltron? They are fantastic. They are the size of a standard briefcase, mount to the wall for the ultimate in space savings, and they produce endless hot water. I have one of their 29 kw models for my 1,632 sqft, 3x2 house, I can turn every hot water tap and every shower on in my house and have piping hot water from all of them. You may say 29 kw sounds like a lot of power and it is, but the unit is computer controlled so it uses the least electricity possible to maintain the water temp that the user sets i.e. if only one shower is running and that shower's mixing valve is set so 105F water is coming out the shower then the water heater will not be using all of its available capacity and the power usage will be much less than 29 kw. The other thing to remember is that it only uses power when a hot water tap or shower is opened, so if the average person takes a 10 min shower to get ready for work then the water heater only uses 10 min of electricity. 29 kw is the largest unit I could install with my 200 amp power panel, my house is older so it only had 200 amp service installed, modern houses may have 300 amp service and Stiebel Eltron makes an even larger size at 36 kw for larger homes or colder inlet water temps and if you have an exceptionably large home two units could be installed. I will never go back to any kind of tank type water heater, there are just zero benefits to keeping a tank of water hot 24/7.
We live in the S/W desert. In 30 yrs.we are on our THIRD basic electric tank HWHTr. This newest one - manufactured by Ruud, on label it says ‘Achiever Professional’ is 25 months old and is putting out brown, rusty, water.
I’m just furious & frustrated, because we’ve been properly maintaining it.
@@k.hendrickson8735 Take a look at the Stiebel Eltron website and the information about their Tempra whole house, electric, tankless, water heaters made in Germany. The only maintenance is to circulate a de-scaler fluid through the WH every 1 - 2 years. If it is only a couple of people in the house flush every two years, if it is a larger family with kids then every year would be more applicable. The flush is easy to do as there are two isolation/flush valves that are installed with the WH. I love my whole house, electric, tankless from SE and I will NEVER go back to a tank water heater ever again.
Tankless heaters are popular in Europe and Asia because they don't have space for tank type heaters.