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The Guy Wulfrunian Story: The Edsel of British Buses? [UK Bus History]
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- čas přidán 19. 08. 2024
- In the late 1950's an entirely new British bus appeared that was different than anything that came before it. Sporting air suspension and disc brakes, as well as a front entrance - with the engine up front, it was quite revolutionary for its time.
Deisgned by Ronald Brooke, Fleet Engineer of the West Riding Bus Company, at that time the UK's largest independent bus operator, and built by Guy Motors, it quickly became a real thorn in the side of its owners.
There were only 137 units built, of which West Riding had 126, and bought many of the others second hand.
Why did this revolutionary bus fail so miserably?
Find out in the video!
#transportationhistory #buses #vehicledesign
Good job Jeffrey. For an American making a video on British buses, I expected you to get it wrong, but you did your research well and made an excellent job of it. Well done, very interesting.
Hello! I appreciate your very nice comment!! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I seem to be drawn to Jeffery's British bus videos - I simply find it fascinating to hear an American accent talking so enthusiastically about British buses!
Hello! Thank you for your very nice comment! Glad you liked the video!!! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
@@JeffreyOrnstein I find it highly inappropriate myself.
@@JeffreyOrnsteinThanks Jeffrey.
There’s a lot of hard work on your behalf researching this video . Well done and thank you .
Agreed, and keeping track of the info sources
Thank you very much for appreciating my effort in the video!!!! Glad you liked it! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
A very satisfying comprehensive overview of this very ambitious product. Disc brakes in a heavy vehicle in the 50s is incredible.
The Guy Arab was so successful in Hong Kong, they weren't fully withdrawn until 1996. They were that good. What an opposing experience the Wulfunian was.
Very happy you liked the video!! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Living less than 0.5 miles from the factory, I remember bare chassis being road tested around local streets with the driver perched above, completely wrapped in multiple layers of clothing for protection against the often unfavourable weather!
Wow, that musth have been interesting to see!! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
That's probably how they were delivered to the bodybuilders.
Snap mate exactly the same here as a kid I lived in a village approx 10 miles from the Leyland Bathgate plant and we had someone in the village who brought home a bare chassis almost every night. Like you I remember seeing him perched up in the seat with a crash helmet, goggles and about 7 layers of clothes on.
@@GuitarMan471 Used to see them regularly on the A80 heading for Alexanders body works at Camelon.
I bet it was massive fun in the summer!
"Feather in Our Cap" slogan was introduced on Jan 22, 1924, to celebrate repeat orders as satisfaction. The red feather was taken from an Indian Chief Head Dress. The Indian head Mascot was adorned all new vehicles.
Thank you, Glenn, for the information, and thanks for watching!
@@JeffreyOrnstein Why do you feel compelled to thank people for their comments? It's annoying.
It's actually pronounced 'Wulfroonian'... native to Wolverhampton (which was founded by Lady Wulfrun in 985CE).
Thanks for the clarification!! Didn't know. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
This is a brilliant and informative piece. Thank you for all the effort you put into these. I'm not far from Wolverhampton and so I knew a bit about the Wulfrunian because it's a local beast. But your content has really brought it to life. 🎉😂
Also, it's 'Dyoozbury' and not Doozbury.
@@cwt5654 now the name makes sense top info there
@@dannycarter1966No yod in American English. Tune would be pronounced toon etc.
Wow - never expected to hear an American expert talking about the Guy Wulfrunian from my old local bus company West Riding - great! Rode the local lanes a few years ago on a preserved model.
Glad you liked the video! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
The Volvo Ailsa had a small turbocharged Volvo engine which avoided the weight of the Gardner engine which powered the British bus industry for the rest of the 20th century . Only the Wulfrunian was the dummy. Under new management Guy built the conventional Arab Mk 5 relatively successfully, the last three were supplied to Chester City Transport in late 1969. The end of the sixties sealed the end of the front engined half cab double decker Most double deckers were to be rear engined from 1970 onwards but British Leyland had a monopoly building the three principal types, the Leyland Atlantean, Bristol VR and the Daimler/Leyland Fleetline . This monopoly caused dissatisfaction with British Leylands "Hobsons Choice attitude , hence the Volvo Ailsa, the rear engined Scania- MCW collaboration, the later MCW Metro bus, Leyland Titan TN and Olympian, plus the Dennis Dominator most of which employed the Gardner 6LXB engine. So by the late 1970s a wider choice of buses came on but most had the 6LX family engine which fared better at the rear of the bus than at the front as per the sad Wulfrunian.
On CZcams a Wulfrunian is driven by a nervous driver listening out for knocks and squeaks as wellcas being cramped and deafened. Health and Safety would not take too kindly to the staircase in which a passenger could be thrown down the stairs and off the bus by force!
Glad I found this video, my grandfather worked for Rotherham Corporation and I have researched the corporation extensively, I have never found any information about them buying this bus but you say they nearly did. It blew my mind to see this. Thanks for enlightening me.
I'm really happ you liked it! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I came for the bus videos I stayed because of the enthusiasm and high quality and now I find myself as a Canadian spending a lot of time reading the comments for the comic possibility I find when an American New Yorker has made a video on a British bus and so the Brits also known as the English offer up pronunciation advice. I could imagen entire series of comedy skits written around different English speakers correcting each other and personally I think it would be good to have a over educated lumberjack Canadian quietly trying to play referee until he has had enough EA lol
LOL, very good observation about the pronunciation comments! That's a good idea bout the referee! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Wait until you see Monty Python's
"I'm a Lumberjack and I'm Okay" sketch
😮😮😮😂😂😂😂
As a cornish man forced to live under the yoke of the English I liked your idea because the English are not Britons they are angles and jutes from Germany
Fascinating as one born in Wolverhampton ! I well remember the GUY North American chief emblem, and no I never knew why it was chosen. As a boy I would often see chassis' being delivered by a driver - no windscreen, just a well insulated man with goggles.
Thank you for this trip down memory lane.
That must have been interesting to see! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Hi Jeffrey, yet again another well researched and excellently produced video, the ‘Feathers in our cap’ slogan was used by Guy to advertise repeat orders, each feather had the name of a repeat customer on it, after that it became the mascot for Guy and appeared on the tops of radiators as a mascot, as you can imagine they are now quite sort after and very expensive when they do appear
Hello Craig, glad you enjoyed the video! Thanks for the info on the mascot logo!! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
According to Wikipedia, the native American badge/emblem arose from Guy using the slogan "Feathers in our cap".
Thanks for the information!! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Yes, the original Guy Arab buses actually had an Indian headdress radiator cap! None of this would be allowed today, not even the name Guy. They were simple basic machines but very economical and reliable, the Wulfrunian was the exact opposite.
@chrischillingworth4812 While there would certainly be complaints about the logo, there would be no issue with the name Guy.
@@curtinj98 He might have to change his name to Sydney Person. I'm surprised there have been no feminist complaints about MAN trucks either.
@@chrischillingworth4812 As silly comments go, they were both silly.
Nice to see Accrington Corporations Guy Wulfrunians mentioned. I have read that conductors didn't like the ride, as standing on the rear platform was very bouncy, and made some of them seasick. Bury's Wulfrunian was sold very quickly after purchase, to the point were it made the front page of the local and called a waste of money. A third Wulfrunian survived, the one that Bury bought. It was in existence until the mid '80s. It was kept in the training compound at GMPTEs works at Hyde Rd in Manchester. The story I read was hit by a Leyland Atlantean that had lost control on the skidpan, and hit with such force the Wulfrunians body was very badly damaged. The body was scrapped, but I think the chassis still exists.
Hello! I did read that there is a Wulf chassis in existence, sans body. What you described may be it. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I grew up in Wolverhampton and all the buses were made by Guy. On these buses I travelled to Wolverhampton Grammar School ( founded 1512) where our school song was Carmen Wulfunense, in Latin of course!
Interesting to hear! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Never heard of a secondary school being around more than half a millenium.
@@pauljordan4452 After I left Wolverhampton I went to Derby School, founded in 1554, and my 6th Form was at Dr. Morgan's, Bridgwater which was a new school founded in 1723
A fascinating historical document - thank you for your research and enthusiasm.
I'm really glad you enjoyed it! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Must be a connection to the Guy Victory, front Gardner engined triaxle double decker supplied to China Motor Bus. An example is preserved at the Scottish Vintage Bus Museum in Fife and is regularly used at Open Days.
Thank you for watching and for your comment!
MACK of Allentown uses a British Bulldog Mascot on every lorry they build, during World World One their AB series lorry with its distinctive ' Coal Scuttle' bonnet was highly regarded by the British and US Army as the toughest thing on four wheels, for it soaked up abuse like a sponge embodying that ' British Bulldog' toughness.
Interesting info! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I wasn't expecting to see my home town featured at 4:12!
Thank you for watching and for your comment!
@@JeffreyOrnstein thank you for producing the video, I really enjoyed it.
The Volvo Ailsa was very popular in Scotland amongst Municipal operators Grampian Regional Transport in Aberdeen (forerunner to the First Group empire) Tayside in Dundee and GGPTE in Glasgow bought loads of them until Volvo ended production of the Ailsa in 1985 and replaced it with the Volvo Citybus. I used to travel on the MKiii Ailsa in the 1990s, the top deck steps went to the front right side which meant the 2 front left row seats were single seats.
Yes, the Ailsa sure was poplular with Scottish operators! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Have an interest in old buses and have seen the Wulfrunian mentioned in some of my books. Never realised it brought the company to its knees though. Interesting video. Thankyou
I'm really glad you liked the video!!! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Amazed and pleased to see an American cover our Buses, thanks Jeffrey. Ahhh the poor old Wulfranian! A legend! I never got to ride one alas, my local bus company, South Wales Transport, were incredibly wary over the model, as my hometown is built on many a steep hill, and its legend that many a scream from passengers could be heard coming from Yorkshire, as the Guy negotiated steep hills, the disc-brake technology "not quite ready" yet!
Sadly, I've never even seen a Wulfranian...not sure how many are preserved these days.
Thanks for the coverage and your hard work.
Really glad you liked the video!! Two Wulfs are preserved. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Loving your videos need to start watching your backlog! Knowing that you are from the US and are so into British buses blows my mind. Many thanks for your interests and great research
Hello! I'm really happy you liked the video. And yes, I've been a British bus fan for a long time. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
@@JeffreyOrnstein there rightly should be a scene in America that's into this segment of vehicle just as there are many into overseas car brands. I read of one who bought a Bristol Lodekka which ignited his love of British buses. He figured out the workings of the semi automatic Wilson gearbox prevalent in British bus marques and rebuilt the Gardner engine.
Thank you for your Video..! Seems strange a "Guy" excuse the pun ? with a New York accent is interested in my local childhood buses..Brought back happy memories.
Hello! Glad you liked the video! I've always been interested in British buses! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Jeffery your a unique gem. How you can teach me about buses before my time from the UK amazes me. I just wish I had the drawings and patents many of these designs could've been electrified. My home city currently has a small fleet of CityConnect electric buses. I hope they do well, they should as they are free to ride.
Keep up the good work fella, you are a marvel.
Hello! I'm really happy you like my videos, I really appreciate the nice comment!! Thanks for watching!
After the 1965 delivery of 'C' plate Wulfrunians, West Riding had actually ordered a further 25 for the following year, which never materialised, the order being changed to Daimler Fleetlines. I understand that Gardner engines in the Wulfrunians, were actually transplanted into the Fleetlines, in some cases.
I'm old enough to have had the privilege (?) of travelling on a Wulfrunian between Wakefield and Leeds, probably c. 1970. I'm normally an excellent traveller, but must admit that after a journey on a Wulf, I did feeling a little queasy and moved downstairs.
LOL, interesting to hear your Wulf experience! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I've always lived in Manchester, in our area nearly all the buses were Leyland, Daimler and a Manchester company, Crossley, which went bust in the early 1950s, with a few AEC's and Dennis buses from other local towns. The first double decker with rear engine/front entrance was the Leyland Atlantean, first in service in Wallasey, Merseyside in 1959, near Liverpool, it's preserved at a local transport museum. Guy buses were quite rare in NW England. BTW, it's a very interesting picture of the stairs of a front loading bus located to the nearside, rather than offside, as is more usual. Great article, well researched. You should do one on the Mancunian, the first double decker designed for one man operation.
Great info...yes, I like the Mancunian a lot. Glad you liked the video. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Paul, one exception to your comment about the rarity of Guys in the North West; I'm sure you will be aware that Lancashire United had a lot of them. Of course their dabble with the Wulfrunian led them to purchase many more Arabs.
Oh, if you're doing the Wulf, you have to do the Lowlander! The Lowlander was a specialist low-height version of the successful Leyland Titan. It was... Let's say variable! It didn't sell, but good ones were very good. As a Dewsbury lad, thanks for the Guy Wulf vid, and the Lowlander also had a connection with the area.
Hello, glad you liked the video. Will look into the Lowlander! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Thanks dude shout out to my city Wolverhampton.
Glad you liked it! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
As a boy I travelled regularly on the Wulfrunians and always remember them as the most comfortable bus rede ever. They wer so smooth. I thought they were named Wulfrunian because they were like riding on soft wool.
Great to hear your experience with the Wulfs. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
When I was a kid, my mate's dad had a Guy bus, took it to rallys all over the place.
It was a single deck "Guy Special." Great fun. Messing with it. Happy memories.
Thanks for your memories of your friend's dad's Guy bus! Thank you for watching!
The next chapter of this Bus deighn was the Midland Red D10 double decker, Midland Red one of the biggest bus companies in the UK after London Transport and Birmingham City Transport and desighned and built it's own buses at it works in Vernon Road Edgbaston Birmingham and set about deighning a front entrance version of their successful D9 bus by fitting the engine under the floor so giving it a front entrance bus with an underfloor engine, one of the two D10 buses was also converted to a twin stair case bus one front nd one rear with a front entrance door and a rear exit door which was later converted back to one stair case and one front entrance door.
Thanks for the info about Midland Red's D10! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Can I just point out as you are talking about the UK that the Glasgow Cooperation, which would later become Strathclyde Buses, was the biggest bus company behind London Transport. Midland Red were quite a bit smaller
@@bigkdog5091 I won't fully dispute that claim but being a Midlander, the full size pre break-up Midland Red was surely bigger than dare I say, even the PTE! and Birmingham CT was a close second to the Red.
@@bigkdog5091 I thing you need to look at that again as the West Midlands PTE had over 2100 buses, Midland Red had 838 Buses and Greater Glasgow PTE only had 665 buses on it's formation
Both D10s were built with a front entrance and staircase. The second D10, 4944 (1944HA), was ORIGINALLY BUILT with two staircases (and later converted to one), and not CONVERTED to a twin staircase bus. Also, it was built with 65 seats and a small exit door at the rear ended up with one less seat, 77 as opposed to78, than 4943 (943KHA) on account of its centre rear emergency exit, whereas 4943 had a 5-seater bench across the back and an offside emergency exit in front of this.
Fantastic video Jeffrey. I just love your videos very much!
Hello! I'm really glad you like my videos! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I think that the Ailsa, which was a very popular double decker in Scotland, benefitted both from using a much simpler suspension and from advances in engine technology. The turbocharged Volvo engine was only 6.7 litres, far more compact and lighter than the 10.5 litre Gardner engine fitted to the Guy.
Interesting comment...will look into the Ailsa. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Cardiff city took a lot of Ailsa....I HATED them! Nasty, Rattly, LOUD and Horrid Ride!! Thankfully, I only had to use them when visiting the Capital, as I am from Swansea, land of the AEC lol.
Brave, misguided, over-engineered but fatally flawed. Just goes to show even the best of them get it wrong sometimes and the problems don't come to light until the bus is in actual everyday use.
Subscribed!
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Hi There Everybody. The reason why I’m sending you those interesting messages is that I and all of us East and North Londoners would Like you to bring those Particular Grey Green buses back to service. So you will be able to Replace All of the Arriva Buses in North London and some of the other Buses in East London? So you will have the opportunity to get most of them back into Service Again Pretty PLEASE.
the distinctive Dark Blue and Red Livery on Accrington Corporation Buses (11:55) was a tribute after World War One as it was the Regimental colours of the 'Accrington Pals' Battallion who were practically wiped out on the first day of the battle of the Somme July 1st 1916. a sad loss to the town of Accrington, East Lancahire. i remember the colours so well as a kid in 1960's.
Hello! Thanks for the information on the color scheme of the Accrington buses! If I had known that, I would probably have mentioned in the video. Incredible story. Thanks for watching!
The sole Wolfrunian 802 RTC operated by Lancashire United Transport was eventually confined to the 82 Leigh to Bolton service because it was never more than four miles from the workshops at Atherton when it had to be towed in!
LOL, that sounds about right! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
They took a chance but it turned into a genuine lemon. Personally I think the engine in a bus belongs in the rear. Thanks Jeffry for bringing us these videos. Proof positive that we do need indeed learn something new everyday.
Hello! Very glad you liked the video! More to come. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
There have been design concepts that try to maximise space for the passenger inthe UK. There were some success stories. The Leyland Atlantean, Bristol Lodekka, Regal IV, based on where to put the engine to maximise space. In France the Saviem SC10, from 1968 to 1989, was a success story. The engine was under the driver, 10, 000 vehicles were built and most towns in France had them. Nice little video.
They used a licence built Wilson semi automatic too!
Glad you liked the video! Interesting info about the SC10. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Nice to see ex-Bury Corpy’s LEN101 at Wrexham Bus Station in its days with Wrights of Wrexham (top-left corner during the end piece to camera). It stopped operating before I was born but I’ve always been fascinated by it. Wrights lost the war with Crosville Wales in the 1990s, but they always had interesting buses; their ex-GMT Leyland Titans were omnipresent in the town in the late 1980s.
Thanks for the additional info! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Also in 1958 BMMO Birmingham Midland Motor Omnibus built their D9, not a version of KittyCats big bulldozer, a double decker bus of more conventional layout with the engine and driver up front ,a rear entrance with conductor operated jacknife doors. On their D9 BMMO also used independently sprung , disc braked front wheels and like Guy,s basket case, were set back making cab access easier. Unlike Guy BMMO kept their feet on the ground, their D9 has a more conventional underslung worm rear axle by Kirkstall of Oldham with good old fashioned drum brakes. Under a bulbous nose cowl and bonnet lurked BMMO,s 10,5 litre oil burner designed by an ex AEC engineer ,twirling a 4-speed Wilson pattern gearbox by Coventry Self Changing Gears. It was not a bad bus ,but let down by a crap braking system a mix of car type hydraulics and compressed air ,air over hydraulic. AEC Southall had it right on the RM , powered hydraulic brakes like some Caddys and Fords ,so fitted the RM stopped better than most late 50,s British made cars,. For their D9 BMMO should have opted for fully powered hydraulic brakes, there the geekery ended for they were sensible enough keeping the bus conventional as to not frighten depot fitters, keep it simple stupid.
Wow, thanks for that info on the D9. I'm somewhat familiar with it, but did not know all this mechanical stuff. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Didn't cars hit the rear of some slowing RMs
@@highpath4776 Yes as I said in another email the RM had better brakes than most late ,50,s British cars.
@@JeffreyOrnstein You are most welcome, BMMO built their own buses of advanced design, for instance their 'C' Series Motorway Coach was the first with a turbocharged diesel of under 10 litres and front disc brakes. Reason for Guy,s downfall with the Wulfrunian is they over egged the pudding ,too much tech. The chassis is a fitters nightmare, a gym crack arrangement of front mounted Gardner 6LX twirling a 4 speed Wilson gearbox by Self Changing Gears at an angle driving Guy,s own drop centre spiral bevel spur back axle via short prop shaft with the hand park brake working off the diff pinion shaft. Just look at those bulky towers for the independent front suspension, madness.
@@basiltaylor8910
Did BMMO morph into Midland Red, or was that a separate stage carriage company?
Midland Red had a garage & workshops off Monument Rd. Edgbaston near to my secondary school, but operated mainly out-of-city (ie, distance) services into and out of Birmingham city centre, eg to Halesowen and similar.
The change from the centre access bone shaker busses to the air suspension was welcome on the Wakefield Leeds route.
LOL, I'm sure it was a good change!! Thanks for watching!
Very interesting video Jeffery. I'm sure they used Guy buses on East Lincolnshire services also. Thank you so much.
Hello! I'm really glad you liked the video! Thanks for watching!
Great video. The bus may have failed, yet the legacy of the forward planning and vision with suspension and driver train proved the concept was viable. It sounds to me ( i could be wrong) engine placement was the major design flaw.
Glad you liked the video! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Almost like a Tucker of Busses,thumbs up, great video, in his own mind it was working, as he was hoping it would,look forward to the next video
Ah, yes, maybe I should have used Tucker as an analogy! I'm glad you liked it!! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
@@JeffreyOrnstein Edsel as just fine also, I am honestly suprised Rolls Royce did not get invoved in the Bus market there in GB, really enjoying these
@@jeffclark2725 Rolls Royce built the Eagle 12.17 litre diesel, not a bad engine but too powerful for most buses, 220hp unblown and 280 - 350 hp turbocharged.
@@chrischillingworth4812 Thanks, They can make great power trains
This was an unusual double decker bus, front entrance and engine, and the stairs on the nearside built in Wolverhampton but it was West Riding in Yorkshire who liked this bus and the biggest operator with over 100.
Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Yes it was designed with the help of West riding. It is said the idea was thought about in the pub and a quick drawing on a beer mat.
I worked at Yorkshire and West Riding in the 70s.I remember Yorkshire starting a preservation society
It's really good that they have a preservation society!! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Hey Jeff, I really enjoy your videos, you obviously spend a lot of time on them and they're very interesting, thanks for making them.
Years ago I drove a 1963 London Routemaster bus from California England, to California USA. It made it the entire way without breaking down or having any failures whatsoever for over 7000 miles! So we did have some reliable busses! Thanks again for you videos
Really glad you liked the video!! Wow, that's something to hear about the Routemaster. I think one also did something similar when the Flying Scotsman was brought to the US. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
@@JeffreyOrnstein I didn't know about that, I'll have to look it up thanks. If you're ever looking for an interesting bus story Jeff, this one really is a great one.. Google "Norwich bus hole incident" I think you'd find that pretty up your alley. I witnessed it first hand as a child
Thumbs up for a great video. I had completely forgotten about the 'bad Guy'! 😂
I'm really happy you liked the video!! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
@@JeffreyOrnstein you are doing a really great job. Your channel is amazing!
Thank you for the credit. Very well researched video. I found out a lot I did not know about them. I forgot about the low roof upstairs and now remember having to tilt my head to one side to get in a window seat because the internal roof panels sloped inwards.
Hello! Thank you again for letting me use your quote. Really made the video better! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
@@JeffreyOrnstein Thats OK I am glad you found it a useful addition to your video.
A very bold attempt, although I couldn't see the advantage they were expecting by placing the engine at the front.
Hello! I guess that's way it ultimately failed, LOL! Thanks for watching!
Thanks for exploring one of the odd byways of British Bus designs! I don't actually think that it was a very good idea in principle - the then new rear engine double deckers had their issues, but would be developed into reliable practical designs, and frankly the later front engined Volvo Ailsas weren't that brilliant, either - by that time offering no more than than conventional deckers, but were more cramped and awkward to work on (the later underfloor engined Volvo Citybus was much more impressive, although its floor was rather high) In the case of the Wulfrunian, it obviously needed much more testing and development before it was launched. Probably a mistake to try lots of new things at once as issues are bound to arise. To use the Cave-Brown-Cave heating/ engine cooling system was utter madness!
Thanks for your insight into the Wulf!! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
@@timbounds7190 oddly enough, most of the drivers I know miss the old volvo ailsa (as do I ), especially in Scotland/SYPTE and others. Maintenance was no worse than rear engined buses. The drive was good, with the high seating positiongoving good visibility.
The Ailsa had decent performance, responsiveness, good on hills, a turn of speed when needed, good road handling, steering, and brakes.
the Alexander body solid bright and airy, not at all cramped and modern looking for the 1970s, and there ended up over a hundred a year being built on its 9 ½ year run.
Higher than average fuel consumption, compared to traditional gardner engines, noisy with the famous scream and hot in the summer but reliable workhorses that rarely broke down and an improvement on the fleetline or Atlantean for both operator and passenger.
A rare topic even for Brits……
I can only imagine the weight & wear and tear issues with these buses….and than enormous diesel engine inside the bus must have been 🔊 LOUD.
Hello! Yes, it's an interesting bus! Thanks for watching!
Excellent documentary, I had forgotten that they existed . Subscribed
I'm glad you liked it! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Given that the all-up weight of a British 1950's era double decker bus was around 27,000 to 33,000 pounds, so somewhere around 15,000 to 18,000 pounds on the front axle, removing the upper front sets to remove 8 passengers (about 1,200 pounds) is not going to make any noticeable difference to handling or wear on front end components. It must have been some non-technical manager's bright idea.
Excellent presentation as usual.
I'm really happy you liked it!! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Very interesting video. Thanks for your research and for posting.
I'm happy you liked the video! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I provided a photo of one of the preserved wulfraunians being the crouch end one at their yard in wood green which was opposite the eastern national garage itself of on the buses fame, if only the TV company had tried Reg in that!
Hello! Thank you for providing such a good photo!! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Always informative, always entertaining
Glad you liked it!! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Very interesting - did not know about this one. Thanks.
Glad you liked the video! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I wouldn't call it the wrong vehicle for the wrong time, but rather the right vehicle at the right time, a lot of the thinking made sense, but it was laden with too much tech all in one package, however daimler, leyland and bristol got it a lot more right at the same time.
Or...maybe it was the wrong bus at the right time? Hmmm...they had the right idea in mind at the right time....just not as good as the other rear-engined buses of the time. Thanks for the analysis and for watching!!
That was excellent. Thank you so much.
I'm really happy you enjoyed the video!! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I can’t believe in all our conversations, Basil Hancock never mentioned his Wulfrunian! Another opportunity passed by.
That's interesting....Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Very interesting video.
Hello! Thank you, I'm really glad you liked it!! Thanks for watching!
Really strange to see a double decker bus with this front body shape and front entrance, with the engine at the front, rather than at the back. This meant the bus couldn't be used as one man operation, as the engine was in the way of passengers boarding the bus, separating them from the driver. Nice pictures and drawings illustrating the unusual layouts. Good explanation as to its rather obvious design failings, confirming most of the other manufacturers didn't follow the same path. Design of double deckers hasn't really changed much since the Atlantean in 1959, obviously engines, suspension and electronics have inproved greatly, but the basic layout since the Atlantean has hardly changed.
One-man operation of double-deckers wasn't on the cards when the Wulfrunian or the Atlantean were designed, as it only became legal on 1st July 1966 after some very intensive lobbying by the operating industry. The first 'deckers specifically designed for OMO didn't go into service until March 1968, in Manchester. The very first, No. 1001 is on display in Manchester's Museum of Transport.
Interesting comment! Glad you liked it! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Interesting comment! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
You should do a video on some of the successful british buses like the Olympian and Dart
Hello! I'll look into it, especially if it has not been done before. Have more videos coming. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Think it's pronounced Wulffroonian.Bus of my youth .
Lived near Wakefield,it was my main bus for school and leisure trips.My dad had not a car.
Remember just before they took them out of service,they stopped passengers sitting at the front upstairs.
Think to stop the suspension bottoming.
There are a couple of preserved ones at nearby Osset......happy days.
Yes, I now know I mispronounced it...Thank you for watching and for your comment!
First I enjoy being able to put a face to the voice, secondly what is the story on the radiator less cooling system?!?
Thank you for your nice comment! Not totally sure about the cooling system...just another newfangled thing that didn't really work! Thank you for watching!
@@JeffreyOrnsteinWing Commander Cave-Browne-Cave was professor of engineering at Southampton University, in the early 1950s he was looking to provide better heating and ventilation for buses and in particular to find a way to remove cigarette smoke from the upper deck as smoking was not only socially acceptable in most places but permitted on the upper deck of double deck buses. The Cave-Browne-Cave system used two radiators on the front face of the bus body and thermostat-controlled shutters, the radiators (inspired by the units on the wings of Spitfire aircraft) were above the windscreen either side of the destination display, where they would get a generous supply of clean cool air and they would heat the upper saloon until a preset temperature was reached and then the shutters would close the inlets into the upper saloon and send the hot air out at either side.
The application of this technology to the Wulfrunian helped with engine packaging as there was no need for a conventional radiator.
Cave-Browne-Cave equipment was verified on Guy Arab and Bristol K double decks of the Proffessor's local operators Southampton Corporation and Hants and Dorset. The system was also an option on the Bristol Lodekka with around one third of those built so fitted, The Teesside Railless Traction Board equipped its entire double deck motorbus fleet of Leyland Titans with Cave-Browne-Cave equipment.
The Dennis Loline, being a licence-built Lodekka (Bristol was legally restricted as to who it could sell to) also offered Cave-Browne-Cave radiators as an option, Middlesbrough took a number.
The only AECs fitted were a batch of Regent V delivered to Barton Transport in 1960, who also bought a Loline with the Cave-Browne-Cave setup. All of theirs were quickly converted to a conventional radiator.
The big problems with the Cave-Browne-Cave setup were with the pipe runs and with the automatic shutters, the piping made levels of coolant difficult to assess and maintain, could develop airlocks and even if these were both avoided made engine cooling less effective,
One Lodekka had a pipeline failure, seriously injuring the driver. The shutters tended to stick, leading to a cold bus in winter or a hot one in summer, on rainy days the system would also send rainwater through the outlets at front passenger knee height.
Good informative video 👍
Glad you liked it!! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I have wondered what happened to Guy buses. There were never any Wulfrunians where I lived but, in the 60s, there were a couple of Guy Arabs. As a passenger, I always preferred them to the ubiquitous Leylands because the ride was slightly more comfortable and there was a better view out of the front for young passengers.
They also sound incredible at least with a Gardner LW and Wilson gearbox.
Interesting to hear abou the Guy buses! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Now you have covered the Wulftunian you now have to cover the Ailsa, the picture you used of the Ailsa had two of them I drove at Potters Bar in the late 80’s, I’ve driven buses from 1914 to the current day, experimental buses development bus but the Ailsa is still my favourite of all time I drove them for about 3 years in there later life when we had some very worn out examples, Ailsa are complete rocket ships a friend of mine has a preserved fleet of 4 of them and two of the the three MK3’s new to London Bus are preserved one bing V3 with two stair cases
Hello! Will look into the Ailsa. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
that must be Keith with 4738 then? I have M&D Ailsa 5385 and they do go like a rocket, smaller engine helps although a lot more agricultural then the Wulfrunian. If you look at the Wulfrunian you can see how far advanced it was with some of those features on appearing on buses in recent years.
Enjoying your interesting bus videos.
Thank you very much - I'm very happy you are enjoying my videos! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
There was nothing wrong with the Edsel, just the styling wasn’t in vogue with the ‘batwings’ of the time. I’d have one tomorrow if I was offered one.
Ok! Thanks for watching!
Im from Wolverhampton, sad day when Guy Notors closed down.
Yes, I'm sure that was sad to lose such a company! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
The Wulfrunian was a bit before my time -- though it looks a lot more modern than it was. That probably was its undoing; if you bring too many innovations to market at once, you will invariably lose some business from customers who are set in their ways, and despite extensive laboratory testing, you don't know for sure what might happen in real-life situations -- you need understanding customers and a healthy dose of luck. Meanwhile, other manufacturers will end up learning from your mistakes and implementing better versions of everything you tried to do. The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese. Being the first kid in the neighbourhood to get a VCR isn't worth so much by the time all your friends have got front-loaders with remote control, picture search and multi-event timers ..... and who ever used the audio dub function anyway?
Derby City Transport had some Volvo Ailsas, when they were my local bus company. The doors on those were also asymmetric, with a three-part fold!
Hello! Excellent analysis! And I actually like the unusual asymmetrical three-part door as well! Thanks for watching!!
I had the pleasure of riding on Wulfrunians occasionally, in service, when I was at school in East Leeds in the late 1960s. They were, of course, West Riding examples. The bodywork was spartan (nothing unusual in that at the time) but I found the ride really smooth with that air suspension. West Riding reverted to Atlanteans for double deck orders in 1966, with Fleetlihes following on in subsequent years. As their Wulfrunians were withdrawn the Gardner engines were reused in the Fleetlines, and gave many years of reliable service. An excellent unit.
West Riding also made the mistake of buying some single deck Daimler Roadliners, powered by an American made Cummins engine. Desperately unreliable.
Thanks for your positive memory of the Wulf!! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
The Cummins engines may have been built here, I think Scotland. The original 14 litre engine was brilliant but the small V6 and V8 engines were nightmares.
@@chrischillingworth4812I took this bit from Wikipedia, so there's every chance it's wrong! It was also rather technical. Suffice to say, the reliability wasn't great, even with alternate engines from Perkins or Leyland. Problems with the transmission too. For West Riding, struggling with 100+ Wulfrunians, the Roadliner was the last thing they needed
Used the Guy Wulfrunian a lot in my school days, to and from Thornes House Grammar school
Awesome!!! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
The pronunciation of Wulfrunian was a little painful as I’m actually a Wulfrunian myself. I have had the ”pleasure” of actually driving one of these at the Black Country Living Museum where I was a volunteer driver for the buses, trams and trolleybuses for around 10 years.
Hello...sorry about the incorrect pronunciation. I honestly thought it was a short u and not a long one. Great to hear you drove one of these. Thanks for watching!
I wonder if Wolverhampton Corporation Transport really wanted to buy two, or whether they thought they had to be seen to be supporting local manufacturing. Also viewers may have noticed that one of the demonstrators was painted old gold and black, the colours of Wolverhampton Wanderers Football Club!
Interesting - didn't know that about the black and gold! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Going on what Jeffrey has said about this bus, it is not an Edsel of busses. Jeffrey has said that the bus failed due to design deficiencies causing excessive wear of certain parts and poor handling. The Edsel car design was quite sound and did not have any vices, but was a marketing failure because people didn't like the styling - they didn't like the big vagina-looking thing on the front. There appears nothing wrong with the bus styling. And the Edsel name was not inspiring like Ford's other model names eg Falcon, Customline, etc. The bus is more like a Triumph Herald car, which had handling vices and for which there developed a market for upgrade kits to replace front end parts intended to never need greasing, but lasted only a year. One used to see that occasional Herald with no back window, as they went translucent so you couldn't see what was behind. Heralds had a paper-mache dash too, which didn't last long.
Hello....Edsel, as I used the term, is mainly due to it being synonymous with the word "failure." This is probably more of an American expression than it is anywhere else. Anything that doesn't work as advertised is often called an Edsel of ____(fill in the blank). It may not be used as much today, as the current younger generation probably does not know what an Edsel is.
As to the Edsel being a sound car...well, that is up for debate as it did have many problems mechanically and finish-wise.
And finally, as for the name....who would really buy a bus named Wulfrunian? I don't think it helped it any when trying to market the vehicle.
Thanks for watching.
@@JeffreyOrnstein You need to read up on the Edsel. It was clearly a marketing failure. mainly due to its styling, not a problem with faults. This is proved by its failure to sell right from its introduction, well before it could acquire any reputation for faults. In its first year only 63,000 were sold, which is very low for a Big Three US car at that time. It was supposed to compete with GM's oldsmobile, which sold about 200,000 per year.
Because Ford tried to contain costs, it began to cut corners in production, leading to poor quality control, which did impact on sales by the last year of production. But the design and engineering was sound. This is quite different to the issues with the Wulfrunin, which as you described then were engineering design flaws.
The Edsel failed to sell because it was considered ugly. Because the name did not inspire potential buyers. I should think it wouldn't matter what a bus manufacturer calls its busses - bus companies are not fickle retail buyers and buy on objective factors like fuel consumption, maintenance costs, etc.
Ford made big mistakes in advertising the Edsel too. For instance, they emphasized its differences to other cars - customers didn't like the differences. Ford heavily promoted safety features new with the Edsel - perversely this turned potential buyers off.
If you check, you'll find the term "Edsel" came to mean a thing that won't sell because it is the wrong product for the market, and does not mean a defective product.
You should note that the Edsel actually sold about 100,000 in 2 full years of production- actually a big number of cars. But Ford abandoned it because they needed to sell about twice that number to break even - they lost $400 million on the car. some competing brand/models sold about the same numbers but are not considered failures because they were not expected to sell more.
A similar problem with bad marketing happened with the Leyland P76. Right from the start, people wouldn't buy it because they thought it ugly, and not like its competitors. Mechanically a P76 is a Rover, considered a good car. The P76 is Leyland's Edsel.
Definitely removed 6 seats,can count them on one of photos,and turned one round to face rear.!
Red or green color so painted for different routes,red being the colour of a tram route they obtained in 1925.
You did not use the pic of a green one in Wakefield bus station No58 Bradford.
I think me and my best friend are on the upper deck, rear.
Though over fifty years ago,I remember saying to him there s a guy taking photos over there.I remember silly things I'm a bit Autistic ....
Internet says Chiefs head used from late 20s to mid 70 s inscribed "Feathers in our caps"...one source says a add in 1924 was adorned with feathers,it reminded people of a Chiefs headdress,so some years later it appeared as a mascot in metal....😊
Hello! thanks for the extra info on the Wulfs! Didn't know about the green vs. red color. I probably saw that pic you mentioned, but had to narrow down what I used, unfortunately. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I greatly appreciate your dedication to research. I suspect you are one where near Wakefield or Dewsbury? I spent my first 20 years (mid 60’s to mid 80’s) in this area & didn’t know any of this. Thanks for enlightening me.
I'm really glad you liked the video!! I'm actually in New York City. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
A lot of good ideas, well thought out but something went wrong somewhere
LOL, yes, that's right!! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
i know people who have used them as rv motor homes,still working great.
Wow, that would be interesting to see! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Chassis is pronounced shasy. A very interesting description of Guy.
Ok, will try to remember how to pronounce it properly. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Very interesting story.
Glad you liked it!! And as always, thank you for watching and for your comment!
Wait, no radiator? How does the engine keep cool?
Good question!! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Jeffrey said the bus had a Cave-Brown-Cave cooling system. I have heard of a Cave-Brown-Cave cabin heating and ventilation system, but what the heck is a Cave-Brown-Cave cooling system? Did you make a mistake, Jeffrey?
Jeffrey said it had no radiator. Given the engine was a standard Gardner water cooled engine, not air cooled, how can this be?
Hello...I did not make a mistake about the Cave-Brown-Cave Cooling system. I took the wording exactly as it was from the Marketing material I found for the bus. For the radiator-less system, I also used the wording/terminology exactly from what I found. I will have to look for the info I had on that if you really want to know more.
@@JeffreyOrnstein I think it would be very worthwhile to look into it and if your description is accurate, worth making another video on those innovations.
In a quick bit of googling I couldn't find anything on the engine cooling system, apart from a single sentence in 2 museum websites. The Wikipedia article says nothing about it. Photos show no visible radiator at the front, like contemporary front engine busses, but that doesn't mean there wasn't a radiator somewhere else. Perhaps it was mounted under chassis with an electric fan drawing air upwards. This would allow reduction of length forward of the front wheels without compromising passenger space. You have a cutaway diagram at 0:17 but we can't read the key notes.
I did find out that some Wulfrunians did have the usual radiator at the front. However most just have louvers at the bottom to ensure fumes did not build up in the engine compartment, and louvers at the top for cabin ventilation.
All rolling chassis supplied by the Guy factory to the coach-builders actually did have the usual radiator at the front, but it was evidently typically removed or shifted by a coach-builder.
If you do make a video describing the engine cooling, please post a note here and I'll get a notification. I'll be sure to watch it.
The 6LX engine would shed about 100 kW of heat in its coolant - about 50 domestic room heaters - all that heat has to go somewhere.
Jeffrey, you may not have made a mistake - perhaps you quoted accurately from www.historywebsite.co.uk/Museum/Transport/Buses/Guy/Wulfrunian.htm but they made the mistake, in their single sentence about it? Perhaps the marketing meant to say the radiator was not at the front, not that there was no radiator?
I wonder how they ran in Durban,Cape Town and Johannesburg?
Good question! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Cant wait for the ailsa video.
I'm looking into the Ailsa! Glad you liked the video! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
A very interesting video. I'd never heard of the Guy Wulfrunian before.
P.S. Why did you sit there with the headrest looking like you had 2 black ears? LOL
Glad you liked the video! LOL, didn't know it gave that appearance. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
5'8" max headroom upstairs...that's in-taller-able
Logo was probably cuz ifn you were tall & went up top you'd get "scalped"
LOL, I think you are right!! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
you said at first the guy had front ball swivel steering , like land rovers , then you said later it suffered from king pin wear , it would not have had kingpins if it had ball swivel joints ?
Sorry you didn't like the video...
Front disc brakes on a front engined bus do not work out. They wear rapidly. Ask Midland Red with the D9. Rear engines are OK if you cool them properly. See MCW Metrobus.
Very interesting. Will look more into the Metrobus. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I am about to watch the video, but I think there are wider impications here
LOL, ok. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Removed 4 to 6 seats upstairs,the seat facing camera faced forward before removal of front ones...😊
Ok, great, thanks for clarifying! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
One person operation was a disaster for urban bus transport. Typically, it has doubled journey times, added to road congestion and increased fares for shorter journeys. It is the principal reason why the simple and reliable front engine/rear drive configuration has been replaced by these complex and expensive fresk types, which typically weigh twice as much, with all that implies.
The final nails in the coffin of basic sound engineering bus design were safety and a accessibility regulations.
Sadly it was needed, as it became uneconomical to need a separate conductor to collect the fares. Nowadays, with tap in/out technology, the problem with passengers paying fares using cash has greatly diminished. I use public transport regularly travelling into city centre Manchester on a regular basis, the main hold up is with traffic congestion, caused chiefly by too many cars. Buses are now much bigger, and as a result, a bit heavier, but far more fuel efficient than older types. When we moved to a small housing estate in North Manchester in 1964, our local bus was a single decker, so we were used to one man operated buses.
Thanks for the info on OPO. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
@@paultaylor7082
Conductors because uneconomical because of tax. Over 40% of gross labour costs are tax. Labour made matters worse in the 1960s by introducing Selective Employment Tax which continued until VAT was introduced.
Can you do a video on Gardiner engined Fleetliners please
Hello! Thanks for your suggestion - I will look into it! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
You are too unkind. The Wulfrunian was designed with a front engine at a time when the Leyland Atlantean was having over heating problems due to its rear engine. The Guy design incorporated too many advanced features at the time, but the later Volvo Ailsa also had a front engine, but conventional leaf spring suspension, and was very successful. It’s just a shame Guy didn’t make a simpler version, but that is now history.
Yes, too bad it wasn't a bit simpler!! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
The Gardner 6LX weighs threequarters of a ton, and it's a bulky engine to boot, so trying to accommodate something that big and heavy in the front overhang was never going to end well. Leyland had built the two Lowloaders as testbeds for the rear-engine concept, both of which had quite long and successful careers, and for all the problems with the early Atlanteans (and Fleetlines), they were issues of detail design rather than fundamental flaws. The real lunacy was how West Riding's Board were persuaded to bet the farm on such an untried design.