I must say every part of this video is exceptional, best on the tube, even my wife stops what she is doing and watches, great stuff, you have our attention and we look forward to your next video,
Thanks Randy. You know that job on the horizontal mill I use the 16 cutters on? You should see the scrap inserts from that. I use more than 200 inserts a week when it’s running. I have hundreds of pounds of inserts just from that job. Just waiting for the right price on scrap carbide to sell it.
I love how you do this then say "the other half is actually quite complicated" as if this isn't lol. When you said one insert per pass I thought you meant roughing operation, no you meant per PASS. Love your vids, always something to look forward too.
Excellent video again, thanks. One thing I have noticed is that you always run very efficient toolpaths. I notice a lot of CNC programs on CZcams running, with roughing cycles in particular, with pauses between repetition patterns. For example, if you've got to face something flat (milling) larger than your face mill, the "standard" path would be to go around in some fashion and then pause and return to a home position before going down a bit to take the next cut and take the same path again. I also see it in finishing cycles on many CNC videos and it drives me nuts but your finishing passes at 24:30 are really nice!
Thank-you for telling us how often you have to change inserts when machining inconel. For anyone who hasn't had a chance to try machining inconel it can be quite an education trying to get tools to last any amount of time as it is not a hard but tough material that does not like to be separated from itself. Where I work we vertically machine small parts and the tools last a maximum of ten parts.
When you estimated this job, did you realize you would need a couple of thousand inserts? Excellent voice over explanation. well done and thankx for sharing.
It’s not really that bad. I’ve probably only used two boxes of roughing inserts. The plunge mill are a little different mater though. These jobs are always tooling intensive but there’s money in the job to pay for it.
Thanks for posting this! I used to machine some very small precision parts from 718 and 625. Both are so hard on tools. I wish I could have just indexed inserts but with small tools, well, you just have to run them and trash them.
Thank you as always for taking us along; your camera housing does its job very well indeed. I don't know who sells you inserts but they must be happy campers after this job!
Wow Peter I’m not even at the controls and I was nervous just watching, lol. The huge crankshafts I run on the WFL M120 at work are expensive too but all that insert changing just puts that job on another level. Like always good stuff. 👍🏽
Edge Precision I understand though by indexing them before something happens instead of trying to stretch them out. I do the samething I could get more holes out of and indexable tip drill but would have to stop mid cycle and change it and may not catch it in time. I never worked that material so I guess I was a little nervous knowing the cost of it. 👍🏽
What I have read this material is really tough and the high nickel content gets tougher with heat, and low RPM is required negative hook angles are a no no. You do a great job talking through this.
Wow, a 36"x5¾" piece of 718 Inconel round stock (similar to this one) is $9,000.00 USD!!! Imagine messing one up. With tight tolerances, if you cut it a thou too much, you lost out on $9,000.00 of your profit. Damn. That's crazy.
That a little larger than this part. But it’s close. So you see why it’s not worth risking the par for a couple of hundred dollars of inserts. The bought a piece of inconel here at Centerline the other day that cost $40,000.00. Now wouldn’t you like to work on that part? It could give you a nervous break down.
Haha yeah a few years I made a big part in apco 18. The stock was about 50.000 dollars and was not bigger that a pallet. We machined on it for 3 weeks damn that was intense. And it was a very complex part haha
LOL... it would be interesting to see a pile of carbide you went through, for this whole job... The amount of carbide, vs, finished parts... Nice work!!
they really are works of art. love the work, detail and knowledge required to get all the ops right and make a spectacular part. I am very interested in seeing what that part does / what it goes into and how it works.
I can’t really say what this part does. The only reason I call it a valve body is that’s what the drawing’s title is. When you see the other end you will be even more confused. Thanks Peter.
When it looks in sync it's called "aliasing". Basically, it's when your sampling speed (camera shutter speed) becomes close to the frequency of what you're measuring (RPM in this case). It's not so important with filming, but in measurement systems it's a big deal. Rule of thumb is that you want your sampling speed to be at least twice the frequency of what's being measured.
You sometimes hear from people online that you are not "a real machinist" or just a "button pusher" if you use a cnc. Would be fun to give a project like this to one of those cockey guys who has an old bridgeport and a manual lathe in there garage. Need 10 by monday no problem ?
That air knife on the go pro is working awesome! Really impressed how seamless you can stop a program flip inserts and make adjustments. I would be interested to hear your approach on that topic some day.
The tool supplier must love you when you tell him I have a small job coming up and I need 300 inserts. It still bugs me that you have a $1,000,000 machine and you use those $30.00 micrometers I guess its like snap on tools your just paying for the name. Because I am sure your work is spot on.
Peter, your work is always fantastic. Your attention to detail is truly a mark of an artist. Maybe you could touch the subject of design aestethics vs functionality vs costs in one of your videos. When you design a part for yourself or a customer, to what extent are you thinking about how the part is going to be machined? Sometimes reducing the amount of features or simplifying the shape of a part means less tooling, less time and less costs. When visual aspect comes into play, things get more complicated. Not many people are talking about this in their videos. What are your thoughts on this subject? I would assume that the equipment at your disposal plays a huge role in the design process. Thank you for great videos! Maciek
Oh, I do have a question.... does this mean, that all of these cutters, that have been a "one pass" usage for this material, mean, that they are completely worn out, or would they still be okay to use on softer alloys for a bit, and just not worth the multi passes on this current material?...
I watched a Sandvik video about their carbide recycling, and they said their new inserts are made from 80% recycled tungsten carbide from their recycling program! So imagine all the carbide that's broke in the world.
You always have very nice pieces to work on. I'm jelous! Wish I would get workpieces like that. Once the first piece is fully programmed and working, the integrex starts paying off and wins it's costs back. All-in-one machine. I love working on those. Did you program everything on mazatrol? Or you use the cam? Once again great video, like always.
Would it be easier to use an EM to cut out the index hole, all the way around the part, so you won't have the interrupted cut? Just a suggestion not a negative comment.
If I had been thinking ahead. I would have milled a groove like I did with the wide groove. When I programmed it I didn’t think I would have this much trouble with it. It’s really not that bad. I just have to watch it.
@@EdgePrecision I also have to say thank you for your videos. It is a lot of work to make the parts you do and a lot of work to explain them. I don't come across a lot of good machinists on CZcams, but you are doing a great job. And inconel is brutal to machine. Thank you.
"Per pass" Jeez. I know that Inconel is not fun, but damn. How many inserts did you go through, if you don't mind me asking? How do you factor that into your quote? General material experience, and hope for the best? I would have assumed an insert or two per part for each roughing operation, not a bunch for each roughing section alone. I wouldn't have anticipated that many insert rotations. Pretty much goes without saying that a part like this wouldn't be suited for automation. ;) Amazing video as always. You do excellent work. :D
If I quote a job. Depending on the material I will use a percentage of some sort for tooling. If I have to buy or make special tools I may take the time to figure what that will take. If it’s really complex I might get quotes on the tooling before my quote.
Is this going into some great huge automatic transmission? It resembles a valve body valve. It surely is an intricate part. A beautiful result. Thanks for the great video!
The only reason I call it that is that’s it’s name on the print. I have not a clue how this thing works. When you see the other end done you will be even more confused.
It can work for a finishing tool. But the times I’ve tried it I had limited success. CBN is more for hard turning of steels. I think the inconel isn’t hard enough. Also the inconel’s high temperature strength is much higher than steel.
Hastalloy is easer to machine than Inconel. The machinability of Inconels does vary the 600 and 900 series machines easer then the 700 series. I’m not exactly sure why but I have found this to be true.
I really appreciate your GoPro's airblade enclosure. Would you make one that points the air stream downwards or are you happy with the air stream pointing to the side?
I've been following your camera development but also wondered that could use a 45 degree slanted piece of glass as the cover window for your lens. Makes the unit bigger but the assembly acts like a mini roof and the drips come off the glass and air knife differently. (see attached "Graphics" and explanation . ) in line below . ====================== / / / / /
I am aware of Sandvik and there products. I do and am using many of them. What I show in my videos I have never claimed to be the only or even the best way of doing things. This is the reason I rarely give feeds and speeds. No body ever agrees on the same feeds and speeds. You have to ask yourself why is that? It is because conditions vary so much. I have even done repeat jobs on the same machine with supposably the same material same tooling. But the same feeds and speeds didn’t work the same. Bottom like is what may work for me may not work for you and vice versa.
@@EdgePrecision Didn't mean to criticize you, I have turned much 718. Have tried a variety of insert and nobody has come as close as Sandvik yet, just my opinion 😉
I didn’t take it that way. I have also machined quite a bit of Inconel as well as other difficult materials. What I have found is every job is different. I wish I could say use this tool at this feed and this speed and it will work for you. But I can’t. Every body’s situation is different. Their machine tooling the way they hold the part the coolant and it’s supply. All I can do is show what I did and just maybe that cold help some how. I think some people with their CZcams channels disable comments or delete comments the don’t like. I don’t do that all comments are welcome and even encouraged. Good or bad I don’t want to limit peoples reactions. I Thank you for you comment.
I myself haven’t had that good of success with CBN in Inconel. Also as you say they are much more expensive than carbide. I can buy a whole box of carbide for what 1 or 2 CBN inserts cost.
Yes I have used ceramics. They can under the right conditions cut this material faster. But there is a higher risk of distortion from heat and it takes more attention to the cut. Translated that means you have to have you finger on the feed hold button at all times. Or at least be watching and able to stop things in a hurry. They are not the most reliable situation. Also the inserts are quite a bit more expensive and generally have big radius’s. So you can’t get into small features.
Hey Peter. Any reason why you wouldn't drill out the bulk of the slot to reduce the amount of milling. For some reason I get realy good life with U drills compared to milling cutters and turning inserts recently did 13 x 105mm deep holes (39.5mm diameter) in 2205 duplex on a single index but needed to index the turning insert every second cut.......
Hi Peter, Great footage (is this with a new window), the ruined inserts looks like it has been hit from the back or is it because of to great upwards force ( from the tip of insert towards hold down screw) on a negative insert, or a chip getting caught, you make some very interesting parts, would be nice to some of them i action.
Once the cutting edge/ tip fails the force compresses the carbide and it breaks under the compressive force. It in effect shatters. Because it’s no longer really cutting.
I have a question for you about how the constant tool indexing affects your finish diameter. The machine I have is not as rigid as yours, but many of your toolholders have very long gage lengths. When I do light finish cuts I find that the tool will sometimes cut deeper than my offset because the tool deflects less on the lighter cuts. Does the rigidity of your spindle and capto tooling not cause that issue?
I don’t have any trouble with indexing inserts changing things to much. On finish tools with close tolerances when I index a insert I stand off with the offset a little. In easer to machine materials I could just run the tool after I have the size. But in this material I have to index the finish insert every part. Yes the Capto connection has very good rigidity and repeatability. Even with the long tools.
Thanks Bill. Actually there is more standard end mills than insert tools. The thing about Inconel is a end mill, mills better on the side of its flutes than the face. You will notice when I use a end mill I’m milling on the side and to face I use a feed mill. With a end mill use small depth of cut on the side of the tool. Because of the large radius on the side with shallow depth of cut thins the shaving. The same as a feed mill on the face with a large lead in radius thins the chip. This is the best way to mill this material always try to thin the chip.
I've noticed that you never use probing? You always manually zero your tools. Any reasons for that? I don't think a machine this caliber doesn't have a probe. Love your work. Keepem videos coming. Good job 👏
The machine does have a tool setter probe. The arm is so high up it is difficult to use. If I had a jog pendent on the handle jog it would be easer but I don’t. I can’t reach the jog wheel on the control while up there close to the folded down arm where the touch probe it. The machine also has a laser tool setter for milling tools. At this time it’s not functioning. I don’t want to spend money on fixing it. I really prefer to touch things manually that way I see exactly where the tool is on the display. The mazatrol always shows you the tool location relative to the active fixture offset. Thank you.
I wonder if the thermal shock to the inserts is what was wearing them out so fast. I haven't worked with much inconel but from what I've seen and heard from other local machinists, some do it dry and use ceramic inserts.
I tried running just air mist first just for that reason. The inserts didn’t last as long with air mist as with flood coolant. I think the heat treat could have been done differently to improve machinability of the material. If I run this job again I will try that.
Again, amazing. Can you explain why would have a mismatch on the groove, if youre using the same tool but turning it 180 on the B axis? I would have thought you would get a perfect match if you were using one tool
This turning tools insert is about 2.7” off the center of the spindles rotation. So that’s more than a 5” diameter. Now in a ideal world and the B axis being perfectly aligned both offsets would be the same. But it doesn’t seem to work out that way. In order to get the two cuts to line up and show no step we are talking about less than .0005”.
Thanks, have you ever bumped the machine or is that just from cutting forces, wear and inherent machine design? I'm really struggling to match an OD on some 300mm rollers, do you ever ramp up with the first cut and then cut into it with the second?
Samuel Stone yes I have done stupid mistakes and had to realign the machine. That’s why I own a expensive capto test bar. I alway arc in to each cut to give a gentle transition between the two cuts.
@@EdgePrecision it’s great for producing grooves and also turning inconel or other abrasive materials. For roughing I used a round insert and set the b axis at -45 at the start of the shaft as I turned down the length rotated the b axis at the same time to +45. Great way to negate insert notch wear and avoids having to change inserts part way through. Great channel by the way.
It something we have overlooked in the past, good luck! I chuckled when you said the NEXT part is the complex part of this job. Can't wait though! I'd be half the machinist I am today without the exposure to your machining experience and expertise you continue to provide!
Hi Peter, I just wanted to mention that if you ever found yourself with "too much video" that maybe releasing a companion long format video with no voice overlay and no / less accelerated playback would be well received. Of course such a video wouldn't make much sense without the regular sort of video with you explaining what's going on and what & why you're doing what you're doing... or maybe it's just me that thinks such videos would be interesting.
+Edge Precision @Edge Precision @ "Peter" this is incredible work and not much room for any kind of mistake. I have a couple of "Burning" questions on machining this type of form. So here goes; 1. Is it possible to machine this form on a 3 axis vertical with a 4th axis rotary and a two axis lathe ? (Assuming work envelope is fine, and one is machining an easier material and you don't have to do a bunch of gun drilling / long skinny tools and similar boring operations. ). 2. If so, how many times (roughly) in your estimation would the work piece have to go back and forth between "Mill" and "lathe" ? 3. What do you think would be the biggest tolerance issues for that ? (In general, also assuming top drawer Vertical and two axis lathe + really accurate DD rotary)… AND separately do you have any advice for designers that maybe should or shouldn't design parts that have so many interrupted cuts ? [If you feel like it ]. Thanks so much , answers to this conundrum would really help me out. [CHEERS and great footage LIKE the new LIGHTS and lighting that was really/ nice couple of shots there ! (looking thru the slot)].
I’m typing this on my phone because the internet connection here at work hasn’t been working for three days. So it will be short. I’m only going to talk about what you have seen. Not the whole part to avoid confusion. 1; yes it can be done on a CNC. 2; 2 lathe operations. 2 mill operations. The mill would need a 4th axis o a indexing head at the very least. One operation would need the part to be stood up on end. This would require a machine with enough clearance in Z or could be done easer in a horizontal mill. That’s because of the end milling and drilling. And finally about design and engineering it would be good if schools would reinstate a machining course in the engineering education. I mean modern type of machining with cad cam and CNC.
Wow, thank you that's really clear and concise and very real answer. A lot to think about there. So this part so far takes about a day now that you've got it really down. So if someone at "gun point" had to do something similar on your 2 lathe operations and 2 separate mill operations (scenario) how much longer do you think it would take to perform ? [Thanks so much !] and YES I agree 10,000 % cnc cad/cam should be mandatory for mechanical engineering students. [Separate point] [In machine tool "Biz" everything is centered on obsessive levels of efficiency, speed and parasitic times and process times and YET no one talks about the most inefficient gap in the whole broader engineering process of design/ design engineering vs what machinists have to execute on. It's an open loop top down system rather than a very tight small loop that could eliminate design failures and errors that can keep certain parts and processes as being unnecessarily expensive, inefficient and overly complex (perhaps). Honestly IMO/view that's one of the biggest overall inefficiencies, and the only way to close that is have engineers and designers learn cad/cam and CNC to a pretty decent level and include up-chain "feedback" from machinists as part of the design engineering "loop". I think in Japan there is much more up-stream integrated design from the shop floor rather than "God like" top down design in the USA]. Bad design creates real problems especially when "We" are supposed to be competitive on the world stage. Good design does not take any longer than bad design YKWIM ?
I have never machined molybdenum by itself. I searched and found this link. It may be of some help. www.espimetals.com/index.php/technical-data/110-Molybdenum-%20Machining
Your videos are great, I am learning a lot - since Inconel is clearly so hard to machine, it makes me wonder why parts aren't made using wire EDM - is it too expensive? Or maybe there is more infrastructure built around machining, and since it's possible to machine it just gets done, whether or not it is the most effective process for the material. In any case - it's a pleasure to watch a master at work - and the narration is priceless. Thank you!!
It would take even more time to EDM this part. You have to remember for ram type of EDM you have to first machine a electrode. Also the electrodes wear or erode so you would need mutable electrodes. It would be more expensive to do the whole part. There is part of this part in the bore that will have to be Edm burned.
Do you have any tips for roughing inconel? We're trying some ceramic inserts from Iscar. They work really well but they tend to break when they meet a wall.
I don’t really quote jobs nowadays. My customer either throws out a price and I say yes or no. Or I reject it and tell them to sharpen their pencil and come back. Or I just do it and invoice them what it costs. I have a different situation than most people everything I have is paid for. I only pay rent (witch includes utilities and internet) and for tooling. They supply material and all final quality. So everything after tooling, rent and some supply’s is the money I make. I have no employees anymore to pay just myself. So my ability to make money on complex parts is very much easer than a full blown machine shop.
Really interesting to see how you deal with tough materials and intermittent cuts. I'd also be interested to know how much stock you leave on diameters and faces for your finish turning tool? Great video as always
The stock you leave for finish cut varies for the type of material. In stainless steels and exotic materials I leave 5-10 thousands. On soft steels I would increase that to 15-20 or you won’t get a good finish. You may if you have done any machine work run into the problem. You cut your finish cut in soft steel measured but you still have to take a few more thousandths. You recut and is leaves a nasty finish. Your now left with polishing the finish. Well in this machine you can’t do that. You can’t run the spindle with the doors open. So you can’t manually polish. If you can get the surface speed up high enough you can take smaller finish cuts on soft steel.
@@EdgePrecision do you mean you leave that amount on the diameter of that is what your final depth of cut is? Yes I have seen this issue you in soft steels as you describe, I always hear from different people that you should take a minimum depth of cut that is equal or greater than your insert nose radius, do you not agree with that? Just curious, you probably have much more experience
@@EdgePrecision thanks for your replies. That is good to know, I think when people have mentioned it to me in the past they may have been meaning that is what you require you get the chip breaker to perform.
I'm not sure I follow you. Are you asking what I use to figure my cutting parameters? If so, I pretty much go by my past experience with a particular machine. This will vary depending on the machine. For example I wouldn't use the same cutting style on my little Haas in the garage as on the Mazak. I know that probably isn't much help. But it's the only way I can answer that question.
Edge Precision That's not it I am asking due to more and more having to make titanium and inconel. how machines these materials want an opinion on inserts my machine is a dmg mori ntx
Here again what tooling I use is not always what works the best. Everything has a trade off. What you need to think is what is economically most positive. What do I mean? Just because something machines the fastest doesn't mean its the lowest cost. Can you get the tools easily or economically. Does your local tooling supplier stock it? When your machining these type of materials your going to use a lot of tooling. Lets say Sandvik makes a insert that works good but costs $20.00. But Sumitomo makes one that costs $6.00 and works half as good and is more radially available. For me and the type of work I do using the Sumitomo insert isn't a big hindrance. All I can say is you need to experiment with tools because every machine is different. Don't just take a sales persons word. Or even a CZcams videos demonstrations word. What works for you both in time and financially can only be determined by you on your equipment and setup.
Ceramic can work. But in this case I’m worried about the heat and distortion it might cause. I haven’t had a lot of success with CBN in this type of material. And both ceramic and CBN are a lot more expensive.
See a other answer I gave on the ceramic. Diamond would not work on this material. For finish cuts CBN might work. Although I have only had limited success with that. And CBN inserts are very expensive.
Best machining channel on CZcams.
Master class in procedural forethought fueled by vast experience!
ATB, Robin
I must say every part of this video is exceptional, best on the tube, even my wife stops what she is doing and watches, great stuff, you have our attention and we look forward to your next video,
Awesome work there Peter. You should show your scrap box of inserts.
Thanks Randy. You know that job on the horizontal mill I use the 16 cutters on? You should see the scrap inserts from that. I use more than 200 inserts a week when it’s running. I have hundreds of pounds of inserts just from that job. Just waiting for the right price on scrap carbide to sell it.
You described exactly the reason why we would like to see your scrap bin for inserts )) Hundreds of pounds of inserts - you just must to show that :D
Peter is not just a master machinist, he's an artist.
Damn this is nice. I appreciate you going through your thought process.
I love how you do this then say "the other half is actually quite complicated" as if this isn't lol.
When you said one insert per pass I thought you meant roughing operation, no you meant per PASS.
Love your vids, always something to look forward too.
Manny Calavera
Yep, that's inconel for you. I machine the stuff pretty much 10hrs a day, 6 days a week lol
@@neilhuband995 worst I've touched is 245 smo.
This is so amazing to watch. I really like how you show a lot of what is really involved in doing a job like this.
Every video I watch of yours I learn something. Wonderful!
Excellent video again, thanks. One thing I have noticed is that you always run very efficient toolpaths. I notice a lot of CNC programs on CZcams running, with roughing cycles in particular, with pauses between repetition patterns. For example, if you've got to face something flat (milling) larger than your face mill, the "standard" path would be to go around in some fashion and then pause and return to a home position before going down a bit to take the next cut and take the same path again. I also see it in finishing cycles on many CNC videos and it drives me nuts but your finishing passes at 24:30 are really nice!
This deserves to be in the Fine Arts museum here in houston. Nice work Peter!
Thank-you for telling us how often you have to change inserts when machining inconel. For anyone who hasn't had a chance to try machining inconel it can be quite an education trying to get tools to last any amount of time as it is not a hard but tough material that does not like to be separated from itself. Where I work we vertically machine small parts and the tools last a maximum of ten parts.
"shutter speed is in sync with the spindle speed" - this is called aliasing.
Another great video. Thanks so much :)
Fricking gorgeous. Absolute pleasure to watch you content and see these parts.
When you estimated this job, did you realize you would need a couple of thousand inserts?
Excellent voice over explanation. well done and thankx for sharing.
It’s not really that bad. I’ve probably only used two boxes of roughing inserts. The plunge mill are a little different mater though. These jobs are always tooling intensive but there’s money in the job to pay for it.
@@EdgePrecision i believe the paid out for 1 piece could buy you a cheap chinese cnc... lol.
Thanks for posting this! I used to machine some very small precision parts from 718 and 625. Both are so hard on tools. I wish I could have just indexed inserts but with small tools, well, you just have to run them and trash them.
Yes if you aren’t using indexable tooling you pretty much throw away the tool. Like endmills. Often they aren’t even regrind able.
The largest I used was a 1/8" 5fl and the smallest drill was 0.012". :)
Peter I could watch your work all day long very impressive piece of machining. Looking forward to the next episode best regards from England
Thank you as always for taking us along; your camera housing does its job very well indeed. I don't know who sells you inserts but they must be happy campers after this job!
Even though I have no clue about machining it's fascinating to watch this technology.
Some of the finest machining I've ever seen.
Wow Peter I’m not even at the controls and I was nervous just watching, lol. The huge crankshafts I run on the WFL M120 at work are expensive too but all that insert changing just puts that job on another level. Like always good stuff. 👍🏽
This job is unusual. I don’t usually have to index inserts that much.
Edge Precision I understand though by indexing them before something happens instead of trying to stretch them out. I do the samething I could get more holes out of and indexable tip drill but would have to stop mid cycle and change it and may not catch it in time. I never worked that material so I guess I was a little nervous knowing the cost of it. 👍🏽
What I have read this material is really tough and the high nickel content gets tougher with heat, and low RPM is required negative hook angles are a no no. You do a great job talking through this.
Thank you for showing us your work, excellent machine work, your camera cases do good job for this video, I like your editing and explaining progress.
We love the uploads on a consistent basis!
I could watch this all day long...very nice!
Great video! Watching your videos really helps me to take a more analytical approach to my own job
Wow, a 36"x5¾" piece of 718 Inconel round stock (similar to this one) is $9,000.00 USD!!! Imagine messing one up. With tight tolerances, if you cut it a thou too much, you lost out on $9,000.00 of your profit. Damn. That's crazy.
That a little larger than this part. But it’s close. So you see why it’s not worth risking the par for a couple of hundred dollars of inserts. The bought a piece of inconel here at Centerline the other day that cost $40,000.00. Now wouldn’t you like to work on that part? It could give you a nervous break down.
Lets face it this type of work is beyond 99% of machinists out there.
Just give me the chance! Ahahaha Only way to make the big bucks is to do the stuff no one else can/will.
Haha yeah a few years I made a big part in apco 18. The stock was about 50.000 dollars and was not bigger that a pallet. We machined on it for 3 weeks damn that was intense. And it was a very complex part haha
LOL... it would be interesting to see a pile of carbide you went through, for this whole job... The amount of carbide, vs, finished parts... Nice work!!
Amazing work, enlightening! Thank you for sharing!
Looking forward to the more complicated end. Excellent work Peter!
they really are works of art. love the work, detail and knowledge required to get all the ops right and make a spectacular part. I am very interested in seeing what that part does / what it goes into and how it works.
I can’t really say what this part does. The only reason I call it a valve body is that’s what the drawing’s title is. When you see the other end you will be even more confused. Thanks Peter.
you have a soothing voice.
When it looks in sync it's called "aliasing". Basically, it's when your sampling speed (camera shutter speed) becomes close to the frequency of what you're measuring (RPM in this case).
It's not so important with filming, but in measurement systems it's a big deal. Rule of thumb is that you want your sampling speed to be at least twice the frequency of what's being measured.
You sometimes hear from people online that you are not "a real machinist" or just a "button pusher" if you use a cnc.
Would be fun to give a project like this to one of those cockey guys who has an old bridgeport and a manual lathe in there garage.
Need 10 by monday no problem ?
Well Edge Precision might just be a "button pusher", but he most certainly knows which buttons to press. That's not easy knowledge.
Beautiful work Peter. I can imagine the quoting process took a while to accommodate for the high wear rate of the inserts. Thanks for sharing.
That air knife on the go pro is working awesome! Really impressed how seamless you can stop a program flip inserts and make adjustments. I would be interested to hear your approach on that topic some day.
Look at my reply to addy brusee.
No need to apologize about the coolest.
I hadn't realized you were making 8 of them. That must be a lot of inserts.
Craftsmanship. True Craftsmanship. Thank you.
Awesome video as always. 💪💪
It would be very interesting if you make a video about quoting one of those crazy parts.
The tool supplier must love you when you tell him I have a small job coming up and I need 300 inserts. It still bugs me that you have a $1,000,000 machine and you use those $30.00 micrometers I guess its like snap on tools your just paying for the name. Because I am sure your work is spot on.
Unreal ! Amazing.
Very nice work Peter!!!
OH MY GOD YOU'RE DOING MORE THAN ONE!?
That's insane. What are these for?
Peter, your work is always fantastic. Your attention to detail is truly a mark of an artist. Maybe you could touch the subject of design aestethics vs functionality vs costs in one of your videos. When you design a part for yourself or a customer, to what extent are you thinking about how the part is going to be machined? Sometimes reducing the amount of features or simplifying the shape of a part means less tooling, less time and less costs. When visual aspect comes into play, things get more complicated. Not many people are talking about this in their videos. What are your thoughts on this subject? I would assume that the equipment at your disposal plays a huge role in the design process.
Thank you for great videos!
Maciek
So good Peter just fantastic
Beautiful work!
Oh, I do have a question.... does this mean, that all of these cutters, that have been a "one pass" usage for this material, mean, that they are completely worn out, or would they still be okay to use on softer alloys for a bit, and just not worth the multi passes on this current material?...
There worn out.
your videos are great. Thank you.
Awesome video. You do some of the coolest stuff on CZcams. Could we see the pile of carbide you have left after all this work in inconel
You should see a job I do on my horizontal. I go thru more than 200 inserts a week.
Edge Precision OMG. I do some turning on heat treated 4140, so to hear u go threw hundreds a week blows my mind.
I watched a Sandvik video about their carbide recycling, and they said their new inserts are made from 80% recycled tungsten carbide from their recycling program! So imagine all the carbide that's broke in the world.
You always have very nice pieces to work on. I'm jelous! Wish I would get workpieces like that. Once the first piece is fully programmed and working, the integrex starts paying off and wins it's costs back. All-in-one machine. I love working on those.
Did you program everything on mazatrol? Or you use the cam?
Once again great video, like always.
I don’t use Mazatrol for anything. I use a software call Esprit Cam.
Would it be easier to use an EM to cut out the index hole, all the way around the part, so you won't have the interrupted cut? Just a suggestion not a negative comment.
If I had been thinking ahead. I would have milled a groove like I did with the wide groove. When I programmed it I didn’t think I would have this much trouble with it. It’s really not that bad. I just have to watch it.
@@EdgePrecision I also have to say thank you for your videos. It is a lot of work to make the parts you do and a lot of work to explain them. I don't come across a lot of good machinists on CZcams, but you are doing a great job. And inconel is brutal to machine. Thank you.
"Per pass" Jeez. I know that Inconel is not fun, but damn. How many inserts did you go through, if you don't mind me asking? How do you factor that into your quote? General material experience, and hope for the best? I would have assumed an insert or two per part for each roughing operation, not a bunch for each roughing section alone. I wouldn't have anticipated that many insert rotations.
Pretty much goes without saying that a part like this wouldn't be suited for automation. ;)
Amazing video as always. You do excellent work. :D
If I quote a job. Depending on the material I will use a percentage of some sort for tooling. If I have to buy or make special tools I may take the time to figure what that will take. If it’s really complex I might get quotes on the tooling before my quote.
Just stunning!!
Enjoyed Peter!
ATB, Robin
Is this going into some great huge automatic transmission? It resembles a valve body valve. It surely is an intricate part. A beautiful result. Thanks for the great video!
A Dalek vocalizing module throttling valve, I'm sure. 🤖
The only reason I call it that is that’s it’s name on the print. I have not a clue how this thing works. When you see the other end done you will be even more confused.
Really. You did say it's more complicated. The programming must have been a nightmare! Thanks for the reply and am looking forward to the followup.
How does CBN work on Inconel? No apologies needed for the video or any other for that matter, it is fantastic!
It can work for a finishing tool. But the times I’ve tried it I had limited success. CBN is more for hard turning of steels. I think the inconel isn’t hard enough. Also the inconel’s high temperature strength is much higher than steel.
Have you tried the Sandvik iLock inserts? The one with interlocking grooves on the bottom of the insert and ridges on the holder.
The entire video is fast forward when machining. I would love to see your real feeds and speeds on inconel. Does it semiliar to hestalloy?
Hastalloy is easer to machine than Inconel. The machinability of Inconels does vary the 600 and 900 series machines easer then the 700 series. I’m not exactly sure why but I have found this to be true.
I really appreciate your GoPro's airblade enclosure. Would you make one that points the air stream downwards or are you happy with the air stream pointing to the side?
Some of those shots are with the camera upside down. I use the camera both right side up and upside down. So from the side is a good compromise.
I've been following your camera development but also wondered that could use a 45 degree slanted piece of glass as the cover window for your lens. Makes the unit bigger but the assembly acts like a mini roof and the drips come off the glass and air knife differently. (see attached "Graphics" and explanation . ) in line below .
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Sandvik has a book about Inc 718, the inserts they have are great! They last a long time :)
I am aware of Sandvik and there products. I do and am using many of them. What I show in my videos I have never claimed to be the only or even the best way of doing things. This is the reason I rarely give feeds and speeds. No body ever agrees on the same feeds and speeds. You have to ask yourself why is that? It is because conditions vary so much. I have even done repeat jobs on the same machine with supposably the same material same tooling. But the same feeds and speeds didn’t work the same. Bottom like is what may work for me may not work for you and vice versa.
@@EdgePrecision Didn't mean to criticize you, I have turned much 718. Have tried a variety of insert and nobody has come as close as Sandvik yet, just my opinion 😉
I didn’t take it that way. I have also machined quite a bit of Inconel as well as other difficult materials. What I have found is every job is different. I wish I could say use this tool at this feed and this speed and it will work for you. But I can’t. Every body’s situation is different. Their machine tooling the way they hold the part the coolant and it’s supply. All I can do is show what I did and just maybe that cold help some how. I think some people with their CZcams channels disable comments or delete comments the don’t like. I don’t do that all comments are welcome and even encouraged. Good or bad I don’t want to limit peoples reactions. I Thank you for you comment.
Hi Peter, any reason why you don’t use a CBN insert? Is it purely down to the fact that changing conventional carbide inserts still works out cheaper?
I myself haven’t had that good of success with CBN in Inconel. Also as you say they are much more expensive than carbide. I can buy a whole box of carbide for what 1 or 2 CBN inserts cost.
Hello Peter. Have you ever tried ceramics inserts on this kind of material?
Yes I have used ceramics. They can under the right conditions cut this material faster. But there is a higher risk of distortion from heat and it takes more attention to the cut. Translated that means you have to have you finger on the feed hold button at all times. Or at least be watching and able to stop things in a hurry. They are not the most reliable situation. Also the inserts are quite a bit more expensive and generally have big radius’s. So you can’t get into small features.
Aweome video. Thanks. One question: VALVE BODY FOR WHAT? Holy crap that thing is huge.
Don’t know. That’s just what they call it.
Nice work!
Hey Peter.
Any reason why you wouldn't drill out the bulk of the slot to reduce the amount of milling. For some reason I get realy good life with U drills compared to milling cutters and turning inserts recently did 13 x 105mm deep holes (39.5mm diameter) in 2205 duplex on a single index but needed to index the turning insert every second cut.......
I am essentially doing that with the plunge mill.
Hi Peter, Great footage (is this with a new window), the ruined inserts looks like it has been hit from the back or is it because of to great upwards force ( from the tip of insert towards hold down screw) on a negative insert, or a chip getting caught, you make some very interesting parts, would be nice to some of them i action.
Once the cutting edge/ tip fails the force compresses the carbide and it breaks under the compressive force. It in effect shatters. Because it’s no longer really cutting.
I have a question for you about how the constant tool indexing affects your finish diameter. The machine I have is not as rigid as yours, but many of your toolholders have very long gage lengths. When I do light finish cuts I find that the tool will sometimes cut deeper than my offset because the tool deflects less on the lighter cuts. Does the rigidity of your spindle and capto tooling not cause that issue?
I don’t have any trouble with indexing inserts changing things to much. On finish tools with close tolerances when I index a insert I stand off with the offset a little. In easer to machine materials I could just run the tool after I have the size. But in this material I have to index the finish insert every part. Yes the Capto connection has very good rigidity and repeatability. Even with the long tools.
Thanks I have an older TL-1 like the one you have in your home shop. It isnt so ridgid. :D
Outstanding Peter. I notice that you don't use many non-insert mills in this job, is that due to the limited tool life with this material?
Thanks Bill. Actually there is more standard end mills than insert tools. The thing about Inconel is a end mill, mills better on the side of its flutes than the face. You will notice when I use a end mill I’m milling on the side and to face I use a feed mill. With a end mill use small depth of cut on the side of the tool. Because of the large radius on the side with shallow depth of cut thins the shaving. The same as a feed mill on the face with a large lead in radius thins the chip. This is the best way to mill this material always try to thin the chip.
I've noticed that you never use probing? You always manually zero your tools. Any reasons for that? I don't think a machine this caliber doesn't have a probe. Love your work. Keepem videos coming. Good job 👏
The machine does have a tool setter probe. The arm is so high up it is difficult to use. If I had a jog pendent on the handle jog it would be easer but I don’t. I can’t reach the jog wheel on the control while up there close to the folded down arm where the touch probe it. The machine also has a laser tool setter for milling tools. At this time it’s not functioning. I don’t want to spend money on fixing it. I really prefer to touch things manually that way I see exactly where the tool is on the display. The mazatrol always shows you the tool location relative to the active fixture offset. Thank you.
Nice slot !
Your talent is impressive Peter. Do you have any issues while slotting with the material bowing or moving?
It didn’t move. Believe me that was a relief. I wasn’t looking forward to straightening them. I’m glad that wasn’t necessary.
Wow! Keep up the good work. These videos are impressive. Thanks for putting the effort and work in them.
Did you have to worry about the part spreading with the big through slot ?
Fortunately it stayed straight. I was a little concerned but for nothing it turns out.
I wonder if the thermal shock to the inserts is what was wearing them out so fast. I haven't worked with much inconel but from what I've seen and heard from other local machinists, some do it dry and use ceramic inserts.
I tried running just air mist first just for that reason. The inserts didn’t last as long with air mist as with flood coolant. I think the heat treat could have been done differently to improve machinability of the material. If I run this job again I will try that.
Again, amazing. Can you explain why would have a mismatch on the groove, if youre using the same tool but turning it 180 on the B axis? I would have thought you would get a perfect match if you were using one tool
Nothing is perfect and when you're talking 0.00-0.02mm tolerances any slight misalignment and your tolerance is gone
A minute amount of angular misalignment Between the B axis and spindle would cause it to cut differently when rotated.
This turning tools insert is about 2.7” off the center of the spindles rotation. So that’s more than a 5” diameter. Now in a ideal world and the B axis being perfectly aligned both offsets would be the same. But it doesn’t seem to work out that way. In order to get the two cuts to line up and show no step we are talking about less than .0005”.
Thanks, have you ever bumped the machine or is that just from cutting forces, wear and inherent machine design?
I'm really struggling to match an OD on some 300mm rollers, do you ever ramp up with the first cut and then cut into it with the second?
Samuel Stone yes I have done stupid mistakes and had to realign the machine. That’s why I own a expensive capto test bar. I alway arc in to each cut to give a gentle transition between the two cuts.
Not sure if the Mazak is capable but a great way to finish grooves in Inconel is to use b axis turning using a neutral VBMT.
Yes the Mazak can do this. Esprit is also capable of making the program. I have never done a B axis turning cycle though.
@@EdgePrecision it’s great for producing grooves and also turning inconel or other abrasive materials. For roughing I used a round insert and set the b axis at -45 at the start of the shaft as I turned down the length rotated the b axis at the same time to +45. Great way to negate insert notch wear and avoids having to change inserts part way through. Great channel by the way.
Would a change in the coolant concentration have an affect on the stringing-up?
That is a possibility I hadn’t considered. I did make up coolant right before running this part.
It something we have overlooked in the past, good luck! I chuckled when you said the NEXT part is the complex part of this job. Can't wait though! I'd be half the machinist I am today without the exposure to your machining experience and expertise you continue to provide!
I was wondering if the bronze facia / layer and treatment also changes the surface properties of the material.
Hi Peter, I just wanted to mention that if you ever found yourself with "too much video" that maybe releasing a companion long format video with no voice overlay and no / less accelerated playback would be well received. Of course such a video wouldn't make much sense without the regular sort of video with you explaining what's going on and what & why you're doing what you're doing... or maybe it's just me that thinks such videos would be interesting.
+Edge Precision @Edge Precision @ "Peter" this is incredible work and not much room for any kind of mistake. I have a couple of "Burning" questions on machining this type of form. So here goes;
1. Is it possible to machine this form on a 3 axis vertical with a 4th axis rotary and a two axis lathe ? (Assuming work envelope is fine, and one is machining an easier material and you don't have to do a bunch of gun drilling / long skinny tools and similar boring operations. ).
2. If so, how many times (roughly) in your estimation would the work piece have to go back and forth between "Mill" and "lathe" ?
3. What do you think would be the biggest tolerance issues for that ? (In general, also assuming top drawer Vertical and two axis lathe + really accurate DD rotary)…
AND separately do you have any advice for designers that maybe should or shouldn't design parts that have so many interrupted cuts ? [If you feel like it ].
Thanks so much , answers to this conundrum would really help me out. [CHEERS and great footage LIKE the new LIGHTS and lighting that was really/ nice couple of shots there ! (looking thru the slot)].
I’m typing this on my phone because the internet connection here at work hasn’t been working for three days. So it will be short. I’m only going to talk about what you have seen. Not the whole part to avoid confusion.
1; yes it can be done on a CNC.
2; 2 lathe operations. 2 mill operations. The mill would need a 4th axis o a indexing head at the very least. One operation would need the part to be stood up on end. This would require a machine with enough clearance in Z or could be done easer in a horizontal mill. That’s because of the end milling and drilling.
And finally about design and engineering it would be good if schools would reinstate a machining course in the engineering education. I mean modern type of machining with cad cam and CNC.
Wow, thank you that's really clear and concise and very real answer. A lot to think about there. So this part so far takes about a day now that you've got it really down. So if someone at "gun point" had to do something similar on your 2 lathe operations and 2 separate mill operations (scenario) how much longer do you think it would take to perform ? [Thanks so much !] and YES I agree 10,000 % cnc cad/cam should be mandatory for mechanical engineering students. [Separate point] [In machine tool "Biz" everything is centered on obsessive levels of efficiency, speed and parasitic times and process times and YET no one talks about the most inefficient gap in the whole broader engineering process of design/ design engineering vs what machinists have to execute on. It's an open loop top down system rather than a very tight small loop that could eliminate design failures and errors that can keep certain parts and processes as being unnecessarily expensive, inefficient and overly complex (perhaps). Honestly IMO/view that's one of the biggest overall inefficiencies, and the only way to close that is have engineers and designers learn cad/cam and CNC to a pretty decent level and include up-chain "feedback" from machinists as part of the design engineering "loop". I think in Japan there is much more up-stream integrated design from the shop floor rather than "God like" top down design in the USA]. Bad design creates real problems especially when "We" are supposed to be competitive on the world stage. Good design does not take any longer than bad design YKWIM ?
Can you not add a probing device to the machine to do your tool offsets and work cords?
That is possible but it would be a lot of work for only seven parts.
Fkg brilliant. I can imagine how much would cost each of these parts
hi Peter any experience with molybdenum?
any good supplier too? i have a prototype i need to do. thanks
I have never machined molybdenum by itself. I searched and found this link. It may be of some help. www.espimetals.com/index.php/technical-data/110-Molybdenum-%20Machining
nice
is this done with a seimens control?
Mazatrol running a G code or EIA program. From Esprit cam software.
Your videos are great, I am learning a lot - since Inconel is clearly so hard to machine, it makes me wonder why parts aren't made using wire EDM - is it too expensive? Or maybe there is more infrastructure built around machining, and since it's possible to machine it just gets done, whether or not it is the most effective process for the material. In any case - it's a pleasure to watch a master at work - and the narration is priceless. Thank you!!
It would take even more time to EDM this part. You have to remember for ram type of EDM you have to first machine a electrode. Also the electrodes wear or erode so you would need mutable electrodes. It would be more expensive to do the whole part. There is part of this part in the bore that will have to be Edm burned.
I'd like to see a shot of all the used inserts for this job , when all of them are completed
When you have to index for every pass, how do you manage to hit tight tolerances?
It's just awesome..
Do you have any tips for roughing inconel? We're trying some ceramic inserts from Iscar. They work really well but they tend to break when they meet a wall.
I have always had the best results with Kennametal ceramic inserts. Are we talking milling or turning.
@@EdgePrecision we're turning. Gonna start a pretty big job soon. 80 feet of 6.5 diameter inconel.
How do you price these parts? What if you mess up a part? Did you take it in consideration?
I don’t really quote jobs nowadays. My customer either throws out a price and I say yes or no. Or I reject it and tell them to sharpen their pencil and come back. Or I just do it and invoice them what it costs. I have a different situation than most people everything I have is paid for. I only pay rent (witch includes utilities and internet) and for tooling. They supply material and all final quality. So everything after tooling, rent and some supply’s is the money I make. I have no employees anymore to pay just myself. So my ability to make money on complex parts is very much easer than a full blown machine shop.
I want that stick tool block that goes into the mill head @3:03 so convenient
Peter, what is the step over for the plunge mill?
Tony Nguyen if I remember correctly it was about .187” per plunge.
Hey awesome work. What do you think about the Prime Turning Method from Sandvik? Have you ever tried it? Greetings from Switzerland!
No I haven’t tried those tools so I don’t have any first hand info to tell you.
Really interesting to see how you deal with tough materials and intermittent cuts. I'd also be interested to know how much stock you leave on diameters and faces for your finish turning tool? Great video as always
The stock you leave for finish cut varies for the type of material. In stainless steels and exotic materials I leave 5-10 thousands. On soft steels I would increase that to 15-20 or you won’t get a good finish. You may if you have done any machine work run into the problem. You cut your finish cut in soft steel measured but you still have to take a few more thousandths. You recut and is leaves a nasty finish. Your now left with polishing the finish. Well in this machine you can’t do that. You can’t run the spindle with the doors open. So you can’t manually polish. If you can get the surface speed up high enough you can take smaller finish cuts on soft steel.
@@EdgePrecision do you mean you leave that amount on the diameter of that is what your final depth of cut is? Yes I have seen this issue you in soft steels as you describe, I always hear from different people that you should take a minimum depth of cut that is equal or greater than your insert nose radius, do you not agree with that? Just curious, you probably have much more experience
Kristian Thompson Silva I was talking radial depth. And yes I don’t agree that you have to take the full tip radius for a finish pass.
@@EdgePrecision thanks for your replies. That is good to know, I think when people have mentioned it to me in the past they may have been meaning that is what you require you get the chip breaker to perform.
Again outstanding machining - are you abel to say what the parts are for?
I don’t really know. The only reason I call it a valve body is that’s the drawings title.
I’m late to the party but mostly this type of material is used in aerospace, pharmaceutical or oil industry.
@@GlennChambers thnx for info
Hello
what reference do you use for titanium and inconel
roughing and finishing?
I'm not sure I follow you. Are you asking what I use to figure my cutting parameters? If so, I pretty much go by my past experience with a particular machine. This will vary depending on the machine. For example I wouldn't use the same cutting style on my little Haas in the garage as on the Mazak. I know that probably isn't much help. But it's the only way I can answer that question.
Edge Precision That's not it
I am asking due to more and more having to make titanium and inconel.
how machines these materials want an opinion on inserts
my machine is a dmg mori ntx
Here again what tooling I use is not always what works the best. Everything has a trade off. What you need to think is what is economically most positive. What do I mean? Just because something machines the fastest doesn't mean its the lowest cost. Can you get the tools easily or economically. Does your local tooling supplier stock it? When your machining these type of materials your going to use a lot of tooling. Lets say Sandvik makes a insert that works good but costs $20.00. But Sumitomo makes one that costs $6.00 and works half as good and is more radially available. For me and the type of work I do using the Sumitomo insert isn't a big hindrance. All I can say is you need to experiment with tools because every machine is different. Don't just take a sales persons word. Or even a CZcams videos demonstrations word. What works for you both in time and financially can only be determined by you on your equipment and setup.
So how many inserts per part get used? I take it carbide is still more cost effective than CBN or ceramic on this material?
Ceramic can work. But in this case I’m worried about the heat and distortion it might cause. I haven’t had a lot of success with CBN in this type of material. And both ceramic and CBN are a lot more expensive.
Excellent video. What is the part going to be used for?
I don’t know. This isn’t unusual most of the parts I do, I don’t know what they do.
Puedes explicar cómo se sujeta el plato a los apoyos del torno?
No entiendo perfectamente lo que preguntas. Si pudiera formular su pregunta de otra manera, tal vez.
I don't know to much about that, is it better to use ceramic or diamond inserts, which is cheaper in processing?
See a other answer I gave on the ceramic. Diamond would not work on this material. For finish cuts CBN might work. Although I have only had limited success with that. And CBN inserts are very expensive.
That material is an insert-eater!