Supergold2 / V-Toku2 test and sharpening
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- čas přidán 1. 06. 2019
- This video is a comparison of Supergold2 and V-Toku2 in the performance aspect of edge retention. The video focuses on the performance of the steels, as well as sharpening the steels. The video also discusses ZDP-189.
The video documents sharpening Supergold2. - Věda a technologie
Takefu doesn't list it because its actually manufactured by a company called Kobelco as R2 and sold to Takefu.
Vtoku2 is Aogami blue 2 just made with swedish iron ore like you said. That being said, Aogami blue 2 was developed as an upgrade to Shirogami 2 steel in kitchen knives. In the kitchen the majority of your wear comes from impact and abrasion of the cutting board. Basically the higher the HRC the better the edge retention in the kitchen. Vtoku2/ Aogami blue 2 are prized in the kitchen for the edge retention, toughness ,ease of sharpening and edge taking. It's not a steel that's gonna do well in an EDC situation cutting cardboard, zip ties ect.
My ZDP 189 Endura from my testing was Rockwell at 63 HRC it's a 2 year old model.
Steel not being properly heat treated to give the wear resistance they have the potential to do is something me and a few other tester/reviewers have been screaming since I started my channel.
Glad to see you share the same sentiment.
When the ZDP 189 first came out with Spyderco they got spanked by all the folks that could not sharpen or use there knives properly whining about it being too chippy and hard to sharpen so they watered down the kool-aid, so it's not necessarily that they can't, it's just the community wasn't ready for it. Perhaps now in 2019 they can get away with going harder, but things are held back by lowest common denominator aka the users.
@@FearNoSteel Best explanation of this I've read on the internet. People who are using and testing these different steels and then complaining about HRC not being up to snuff don't realize what large companies like Spyderco deal with on a daily basis in the customer service department. We need " ZDP" for the masses and then flash batches or sprint runs for knife/steel junkies that know HOW to use the steel in an appropriate way.
Good to see you back Mike ! You have one of the most informative channels about steel use, sharpening, and information on CZcams.
Sharpening the different blade steels and actually using them is what it's all about and Spyderco offers a plethora of steels if you can get your hands on them. Excellent discussion and video as always!!
@Mike Knight I haven't gotten one in that steel yet but I've read good things about it. I've seen that Cold Steel uses it as well
I thoroughly enjoyed hearing your opinion and experience with these Enduras Michael! Thank you.
Travis Vanwey thank you, brother.
Great thought on the "gold" class of Spyderco's. I can only pray they do something like that. Great video, I have that gold endura, v-toku2 stretch, and just grabbed a zdp endura. Was just about to sharpen And start using the zdp endura, I'll try to notice if I see it not doing as well as it should. I hope it does great though
Enjoyed the video, very interesting.
Exellent Presentation M!!!
I'd support some kind of upgraded performance package you could select when ordering a knife, if applicable. Higher HRC, ground thinner behind the edge, edge angle 15 degrees per side or less. They could even include a waiver that they can not be responsible for broken blades. Regarding the industry as a whole, I'm just sick of buying a watered down product.
Offer replacement blades at a price like benchmade does. You did dumb stuff with your knife, we'll fix it for you. Send it in along with $25-$40 depending on the steel and problem solved. This way Spyderco doesn't have to replace a blade for free and the user will learn how to treat his knives better so he doesn't have to spend more money on replacement blades.
I really hope that Spyderco will push the limits of these steels in performance models. Unfortunately their current business strategy is so successful that I wouldn't hold my breath. Sprint runs and slow restocking of exotic models create a very high demand. Many of us are content merely having a knife in a given supersteel; so much so that we'll impulse buy a $200 knife as soon as it's available, just to have that steel in our collection. For the foreseeable future they'll probably just continue churning out old models in fancy steel, without giving deep thought into the true potential.
Great vid! I have been waiting to see some comparison on sg2. Keep em coming!!
the more I watch your videos the more I fall in love with that zdp endura, funny considering at first it didn't catch my attention. rockwell being a popular debate at this time is unfortunate for those who are concerned with what it is they are really getting out of the box. that said I think you sold me on the zdp and will be placing a order. thanks for the video.
a_bad1dea nice. Enjoy the knife.
Great video
Good video. I’m considering picking one of these up. I really wanted to try out the super blue on the stretch. I prefer that model. But that gold is really impressive stuff.
neroknives I really like the way it sharpens.
Thanks...I think I learned a bit...
I think Spyderco does a great job getting some of these more exotic steels into the hands of mainstream knife collectors like me at amazing prices!
Couple things:
There is currently a thread on the factory forum about an "AFI" series, thinner bte, higher Rockwells, etc, that is a good thread. Sal has started to engage that thread.
Second, my understanding of the cladding requirement, is for production purposes. IIRC, the maker of the Endura-Delica-Dfly-Bugs *stamps* the blanks, while the other factory that makes the Calys has a water-jet or laser for blanking. The cladding is required for the stamping process. (This was from a discussion back when the Super-Blue sprints were first coming out... I have searched around for the thread some, with no luck, but my memory is pretty clear on this requirement, for some reason...)
Thanks for the excellent content!
mattmanyam good to hear that there’s a discussion already underway about a different series of knives within the lineup.
I have a 3g Falkniven f1 that has a SG2 core. Great steel. Gets air bleeding sharp. I like the steel for working with wood.
👍
Cheers mike
Great video 👍. I agree Spyderco should consider a pushing the limits of super steel line. Just let the buyer know that it will be hard to sharpen and not ment for cutting 12 gage wire. The problem with M390 may be an accommodation to the folks who complained about sharpening difficulty. I don't mind spending time at the sharpening bench to get the edge retention. I had to buy my first diamond stones to sharpen my Endura in ZDP 189. Outstanding video. 👍👍👍
I enjoy carrying the Endura. I have the v-toku Endura. I have been thinking about getting a zdp-189 Endura
Cark Nelson the Endura is a great model.
I feel the endela is the perverbial sweet spot over the endura, the perfect balance I've waited years for. Not saying the endura is a bad model, I'm close to picking up a 3rd one in hap40. I opted for the stretch in vtoku 2 to which I enjoy a lot. Could be the model or could be enjoyment of the steel my opinion is not 100% established at this point in time. What I want to test out with vtoku 2 is a bare-bones approach to sharpening. 1 stone no strops and just see how far my skills can take me. My theory altho not tested is one stone does the work of 3. Going thru multiple strops and Stones will ultimately give a higher polish no doubt about it. Probably won't be able to whittle hairs off a 600 grit stone but what if it felt like a 2k finish. Consistently felt like a 2k finish with a minimalist setup. Bare-bones approach might be the answer we need not the answer we want for vtoku. Supergold hitting double the performance of vtoku is not surprising to me given my experiences.
First step is to reprofile the edge to 12 degrees per side. Big brown bear did some tests with vtoku awhile back so I have faith in more acute geometry. Once that's done I'm going to use the 600 grit silicone carbide stone from gritomatic to test my theory. I don't expect to outperform Michael Cristy and his edges that whittle hair 12 times, but I'd like to see what vtoku can really do.
In that gold class they can thin them grinds out a lot too! It is good in the way that it gives more sharpening life on top of easier cutting.
crf450r bullet david absolutely.
Michael Christy definitely would be nice. My last three sprint runs had horrible grinds, I just had to stop getting them. It was bugging me. When I first started buying them their grinds were really good for the most part. I hope they turn that around too!
great vid mchael, thanks for the info. are enduras your favorite spyderco, if not do you have a favorite?.
Timothy Jenson don’t know if I could name a favorite
The Knife steel app has a steel listed as SG2 from Kobelco Steel Japan:
C: 1.25 - 1.45
V: 1.80 - 2.20
Cr: 14.00 - 16.00
Mo: 2.30 - 3.30
Mn: 0.40
P: 0.03
S: 0.03
Si: 0.50
Question - I have a broken tip on my spyderco dice. Should I try to reprofile it or send it to spyderco. I would rather buy the stones and learn instead of pay them. Any good stone starter suggestions that won’t break the bank. Stones are my preference vs a sharpening system because it seems more like a dying art
GLORY BOUND how bad is the tip?
The story behind it is I just bought it off eBay for 50 dollars. Wonderful deal for the knife. The tip break is about 1/4 inch across the end of the knife. That’s the distance between the spine and the cutting edge. I will lose about 1/4 of the blade length.
Where do you get your diamond compounds? I use the CBN from kme but am interested in a spray your a sharpening legend my man it gives me motivation!
James Gentry Ken Schwartz. I buy directly from him.
12:45 I agree with this argument especially when people talk about the PM2 behind the edge thickness. You have to account for misuse.
How would you say vtoku2 stacks up against production vg10? Great to see you back, love the vids
Carlito 555 edge retention might be similar, but VG-10 will probably take more bite. But sharpeners will will probably notice how clean V-Toku2 is.
Glad you like the vids.
Bohler M398 may be interesting too, an improvement over M390 :-)))
Hey Bro I just got the Para 3 LW in Cts bd1n and they really made a winner. I can't wait till they offer it in different colors and super steels. You ever tried bd1n? I think it's better than regular bd1 and I'm guessing the N is nitrogen so it must be a bit better. I hope you get to test one out. I also wonder if the blade on it can be switched with a para 3 g10 and then I can put some s90v or another of the half dozen sprint para 3s I have. That would be sick. The thickness between scales at the pivot is the same as well as the blade, I used a digital caliper. Just don't know about the pivot size or what's going on in there yet. Take it easy bro, can't wait to see what's next
Yeah, you can switch the blades. You can even put it in para 2 scales.
BD1N is a great steel. On par with s30v, in my experience. Certainly much better than BD1, not even comparable, in my experience.
I used V-TOKU2 quite much when i got it, i left a Spyderco brown stone finish on the edge to have some bite, one morning as i was heading out to work i looked at my V-toku endura and the centering was really out of whack, there was nothing wrong with the pivot screw so i was like what the hell? And i bent the knife back to center, i was in a rush so now im like, is this knife bendy? Could it be the soft laminate? Or was it just something else?
Oozy9Millimeetah maybe there’s just some play in the pivot.
@@michaelchristy4982 nope!! i actually just tried to bend the knife against table and its literally Play-Doh 🤷🏻♂️ wtf!!! Please try if yours does that!!! Im not kidding
I agree with the hardness of the special steels spyderco puts in their product lines but cuts corners on the heat treat it’s not fair to the consumers at all. We will never be able to see what they should be capable of
Spyderco, Some Friendly Constructive Criticism. Come out of your Comfort Zone :-))) and make an "Edge Line" Brand of knives for the Connoisseur, Label as a pure Cutting Tool and not for Prying!!!, as Misuse snapping tips and warranty claims is an Understandable reason for running lower HRC Levels...… PLZ :-))). For example up at the Farm I use a sharpened Tungsten Carbide Planer blade for cutting the gritty wraps of bails and yes its a very brittle material but for its intended use works almost forever!!!
What you said regarding the "bite" of the edge on v-toku2 is my experience aswell. I've gone straight off the final stone with a hairwittling edge only to leave it for a bit, say overnight, and the bite will be gone. Edge still wittling hair, just not biting in the top layers of skin. Quick strop and it's back again.
In use, the bite goes pretty instantly. I'll use it throughout the day for work and then quick strop at the end of the day, and the bite is back for a bit, then seems to go away on its own.
Have you had similar experiences with v-toku2? Comparing it with my Gayle Bradley 2, the bradley will keep that bite seemingly forever.
Sounds like your bite in V-toku 2 comes from a small burr, GB 2 is in M4 completely different beast so much more alloys.
@@Oozy9Millimeetah Which would mean I've failed in properly removing the burr after the stones? That's what I've been wondering myself.
Also, I do have a dragonfly in ZDP which might be more comparable, and again there doesn't seem the be an issue. Granted I've dropped the angle quite low on that one so that might have something to do with it aswell I suppose
@@johan36 could be, few elevated angle light pressure passes on stone with less grit that the stone you finished sharpening usually does it, V-toku 2 doesn't have issues with sticky burr so just old school leather belt stropping could also do it.
@@Oozy9Millimeetah I strop on tormek paste on plywood then leather with DMT 0,5 spray. Haven't tried doing elevated strokes on a lower grit stone though, will give it a try. Won't that produce sort of a microbevel though?
@@johan36 it won't create a microbevel because you dont use enough pressure to cut into the steel just enough to flip that burr back an forth to break it off. I usually do just few light passes on Spyderco brown stone to to weaken the burr then to snap it off i go back and forth on a leather belt, best way to check if you have burr left on your apex is in dark room with a flashlight looking at the apex from multiple angles. If it looks like you have a "wire edge" on top of the edge that means you still have a small burr on it. I don't know how abrasive the tormek paste is but i would suggest you try a strop without abrasive compound because you really can't screw up the apex on bare leather, unless you go like ridiculously high angle and use too much pressure. Michael Christy ( u know the guy 👆up there) uses 4 micron diamond compound to knock out the burr after the stones/plates, because if you start to strop with say 1 micron compound you won't break off the burr and at least in theory you can actually increase the size of it.
Perhaps the lamination of SG2 is a cost saving measure? It's supposed to be very expensive.
Definitely
Hi, I have a problem with the blade bending on my Endure V-Tok. With a slight push on the blade, my blade bends by about 3-5mm and the assembly is curved. Is this a normal feature of this laminated blade? I am honestly quite disappointed in that. I have more Spyderco legs, but this hasn't happened to me yet.
Thank you in advance for your answer.
Richard Meszaros your blade bends 3-5mm? Are you sure? That seems extreme.
@@michaelchristy4982 I wrote to Spyderco, they wrote off to send them the knife. Spyderco service seems serious to me. I bought it in the EU for 135 euros + postage to the USA, so it will be really expensive for me, but what can be done. If you want to write to richardmesza@gmail.com, I will send you photos. PS For sure I also bought an Endura ZDP189. They probably didn't manage to heat it well.
@@michaelchristy4982 The steel is probably badly heat treated. I wrote to Spyderco what to do with it and they wrote me off to send them a knife. I can't complain about Spyderco service. I just ... I bought for 135 euros in the EU and now I still have to pay a fee to the USA and probably back. I also have ZDP189 with that leg I have no problem. I like Spyderco even after this bad experience. Spyderco and Zero Tolerance are for my top knife.
PS: I can send a photo if you want, an inscription to richardmesza@gmail.com
Richard Meszaros send it to them and see what they say
Maybe too early to tell, but I have always felt like sg2 gets sharper than any other stainless. I don’t have your skills or equipment but my sg2 Knives can whittle hair as easily as hap40. Really good stuff. I am gonna guess that spyderco comes out with a g10 endurance in sg2. I think the6 bought enough of it to get a good deal. They laminate sg2 for cost. Some say toughness, but cost and ease of machining are clearly the reason why they laminate on folders. Sg2 is expensive stuff apparently. Spyderco put off their own sprints for years do to cost.
Matthew Forrest interesting
I think Spyderco laminate them to reduce expanse on high grade steel, at least that's in my mind only logical reason..I don't like it cause it may negatively affected heat treatment (Hap 40 laminate is known to perform poorly), since 2 different steels may have different Austenizing temperature..(Don't quote on it cause I'm not metallurgy expert)
Marek Masar if it’s to save on expense of the steel, you have to ask yourself, how much does the lamination process cost?
@@michaelchristy4982 I don't know how much lamination cost but I think the only question we should be asking is why would they laminate even stainless steel? If you say that lamination process could excede the price of solid steel what would be the point? Anyway I said "I think that it could reduce the expense on high grade steel"!!! I didn't say that's the case so I'm asking myself still the original question "why do they use lamination" since it's on the record that in case of hap40 it affects the performance of the core steel cause when you think about it 420j is very low grade mild stainless steel and hap40 is high Carbide hss with high amount of cobalt witch it's supposed to allow for higher quenching temperature and thereby reach higher hardness ( Just my logical explanation from what I've read but it's only opinion based ) Bottom line I have no answer ,just some idea..
I am just now learning about this whole rockwell fiasco after hearing Blade Banter mention it to me at Blade show. I didn't have a clue what he meant till a day or 2 later when I caught LTK talking about it.
I don't know what to think. I mean Yeah the Benchmade bailout excuse was BS, but Does Spiderco even replace blades?
So other than the possible bad publicity a knife abuse vid might bring, it still wouldn't accomplish much.
Somebody please check if your V-TOKU2 blade bends like Play-Doh!!! Mine does from just pressure from my hands against table... Its Endura 4 in V-TOKU2
Oozy9Millimeetah yes, there’s some flex to the blade on my V-Toku Endura.
@@michaelchristy4982 mine doesn't flex it bends 🤷🏻♂️ without coming back to original shape. Something is off with it...
Oozy9Millimeetah call Spyderco
@@michaelchristy4982 im from Finland, so I'll ask if the company i bought it from could do anything, if not I'll contact Spyderco. It probably has something to do with the heat treat of the lamination since it actually holds edge like it should no issues with sharpening etc... I'll look into if there's a way to post pics about it, certainly pretty interesting..