Repertoire: The BEST Dvořák Fifth Symphony
Vložit
- čas přidán 28. 08. 2024
- Is this still-too-rarely-heard work the most underrated major symphony of the nineteenth century? It's a masterpiece, make no mistake, and Brahms evidently thought highly enough of it to take it as the inspiration for this own Third Symphony in the same key of F major. Or at least, I believe that's a strong possibility. In this chat I make the case, and let you know where to find the best recordings so you can listen and judge for yourself.
This is a work that sounds so fresh and new every time I hear it (as does Nielsen's first Symphony, another underrated masterpiece). I actually had the pleasure of hearing Dvorak 5 in concert with the LA Phil under Lionel Bringuier around 9 years ago. I don't expect to be able to hear it again in concert in the near future (Post virus) since it rarely appears on a program, although I think Muti brings it out from time to time. The Neumann digital cycle rarely leaves my side - it's on the shelf next to me right now and I even take it on the road with me sometimes when I travel.
Me too Ken, I always have the Neumann set in my car when I travel on the countryside, Dvorak understood nature as nobody else IMHO. Take care and stay safe.
I loved this. Absolutely first-rate work here, David. Myth-busting, scholarship, practical demonstration and just the right amount of personal anecdote and much-deserved digs on the establishment. Bravo, sir.
I don't always agree with your choice of recordings, especially re: period performances, but I always learn immensely from your analysis. "Formal" musical training is good, but there is no substitute for decades of analytical listening. Thank you...and keep on listening :)
I hadn't listened to Dvorak 5 in years, but your analysis was so compelling, I decided to give it a try. I have now listened to it four times in the last 48 hours--most recently on the Berlin Philharmonic's Digital Concert Hall with Patrenko. Talk about great wind playing....
I agree with Dave about Dvorak being one of the all time greats.
I agree. Because of Dave, I have become a Dvorak fan.
Wow I had thought nobody else cared about this symphony! Thanks for repudiating that and for all the great thematic analysis! I always thought the fifth was certainly as great as the last three. Also thanks for the enlightenment on the Dvorak/Brahms relationship.
Interesting to know, how the world thinks of Dvořák. For me as a Czech citizen it is surprising, that he could be considered as a minor composer compared to Brahms, because we value him of course highly. But the 5th is even in his native land rarely performed. Thank you for your knowledgeable appreciation.
I for one consider him on a par with Brahms, and the cello concerto is my favourite piece of music of all time - all Czechs should be justly proud!
Hopefully, post lockdown the great orchestras will widen their repertoire. The Czech Phil paid a visit to my local concert hall a couple of years ago. Played wonderfully of course, under Netopil. But the repertoire was so predictable, that you felt like screaming. I mean traveling all that way to play Dvorak 9 and the cello concerto. Wonderful as this music is there should be a law against such lack of programming creativity. Almost like a missed opportunity.
@@tommynielsen7163 I take your point, certainly the 5th and 6th symphonies and symphonic poems are greatly unrepresented
@@stradivariouspaul1232 Dvorak's cello concerto is possibly the most stirring and emotionally impactful concerto ever written. And I grew up on Beethoven's violin concerto as a kid and listened to his piano concertos in my late teens and early twenties! (Reflecting on 40-45 years of my listening to classical music)possibly
Dvorak is major composer, for sure. his creative genius is equivalent to any of the big-name composers of the 19th century, e.g. Schubert, Schumann, Mendelssohn, etc. He was "discovered" by Brahms, but eventually really became his peer, there is no doubt in my mind about that.
Long-time Chicago Tribune critic John von Rhein described Dvorak's 5th as containing "enough good tunes to stock a half-dozen Romantic symphonies", a statement I was happy to use as PR for the performance I did a few years back. My FAVORITE of Dvorak's symphonies, despite some Wagnerian-style drama in the finale, which was not what Dvorak did so uniquely well. Audience and Orchestra LOVED the work, which I fear might remain forever on the sidelines of late 19th-century masterworks.
KERTESZ has always been my go-to guy, but the Neumann (Analog) that you use sounds SUPERB. Also, your comments (and those of others below) on Rowicki are convincing. Too bad there's so little room on the shelves.. LR
Thank you, David! I have always liked the 5th. Especially the scherzo B theme. I used to listen to the Kertesz recording, over and over again, when I was young. And have always wondered why most of the big name conductors only do the last 3. Time to look up what Tovey has to say.
Omg one of my ABSOLUTE favorite works!!! ❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤ I can never get enuff of this symphony, and every single time I listen to it, it just fills me with such joy
Thanks for doing this, one of the most underrated and underrepresented symphonies of all time! I have Rowicki on a Philips two-fer that contains his terrific performances of 4 and 6, also two of my favorite Dvorak works.
I look forward to your discussion of those, as well.
@@allenwilliams1306 Agree!!
Vacuuming while listening to Brahms 1 isn’t a bad idea. It’s a great symphony, of course, but I’ve heard it too often for my own good. I think I actually like Neumann the best here so I’m glad you were able to share clips with us. The 5th really does stand up to the rest of Dvorak’s output (or Brahms’s for that matter ) quite well and deserves to be heard in concert halls.
Very kooky- I was just listening to the Jansons yesterday during a walk in the snow, then I find this great vid! The 5th has always been a great favorite of mine, and often recommend it to others.
I think your videos are excellent, informative, and fun!
Thank you David for this extraordinary analysis of Dvorak's 5th. I too think that Kubelik's splendid recording is maybe the best out there. I also find very interesting the way Brahms and Dvorak influenced one another musically. For example in "Herr, lehre doch mich" of Brahms' German Requiem - Is it only me who feels a connection there with Dvorak's cello concerto?
Thanks for highlighting this wonderful symphony. I had the pleasure of performing it under Richard Hickox in Spoleto, Italy and he clearly loved this work. Kudos!
Fantastic lecture! I learned while enjoying so much. Thank you, David!
Thank you mr Hurwitz for this great talk about Dvorak 5, listened to it twice today, after years unused in my big Kubelik symphonic box!
Another great talk. Your enthusiasm is infectious. I do have to say how much more useful, and enjoyable, listening to one of your surveys is than listening to its rough analogue, "Building a Library" on BBC Radio 3. Not just a review, but a music appreciation seminar (but more fun than a seminar). Great stuff!
Also, I nearly spit up my coffee at your "... and I have no reputation to preserve, as many of you will readily acknowledge." Would that every music critic/writer had your sense of humour!
Also, there's a Sejna box?! I googled around, but couldn't find one. I take it is long unavailable.
When I say something exists, no one can find it. When I say it doesn't exist, everyone finds it. Go figure...
#5 almost, ALMOST challenges #8 as my favorite Dvorak Symphony. I just love it too, David! Your analysis was intensely absorbing. That confusion about the numbering is inexplicable.And that relationship with Brahms is very interesting too. I didn’t know the two knew each other that well. But I anticipated you talking about that circular thing (sorry, I don’t know the musical term) towards the end of the Scherzo. It never ceases to amaze me. It’s so purely delightful.
As I type this comment, I'm listening to Rowicki's version. What an exhilarating work, bohemian to the core. Thank you, David, for reminding us how great Dvorak truly is. Were I a conductor, this symphony would be performed in my next concert.
Very excited to hear the Cleveland Orchestra perform this in a couple weeks!! Thanks for the insight!
I fell in LOVE with this symphony in particular because it all just so enjoyable to listen to since I'm a sucker bouncy scherzo like the one in this symphony. Really appreciate the help narrowing down great recordings of this work. Thought about doing a list of your favorite piece/recordings of all time?
It would be too large!
I saw the Seattle Symphony perform the 5th live a few years ago. It was a rare treat.
Thanks for the analysis of parts of this symphony's structure and its relationship with Brahms. I love Dvořák--and fortunately, I still have lots of his work to listen to uncover. His fifth symphony is one that I had not heard until recently, and the more I listen to it, the more I like it!
My only copy of it is an--to my knowledge--obscure recording by the Prague Philharmonic conducted by Bohumil Kulínský from 1991. I have yet to listen to any of the recordings you mention here, but I cannot imagine the Kulínský recording being any bit inferior to them. The music is well-played, the recording well-balanced; it just sounds natural, like it is the way the music was meant to sound. It is coupled with the exciting Othello overture, which was another happy discovery for me.
OK, but test what you "cannot imagine" by doing some serious, comparative listening!
@@DavesClassicalGuide That's the plan! We'll see if I'm being over-enthusiastic in my choice of words.
I heard the 5th played by the Czech Phil in Prague some years ago. They were conducted by Herbert Blomstedt...... a dream team!
I'll bet!
This was a great explanation of a work which I may not have thought to listen to had I not watched this. I’m wondering if you have a video on ideal Dvorak cycles or complete symphony cycles planned for the future?
Coming soon.
Thanks David for another engaging and thought-provoking chat. I agree with you. Every bar of this symphony is golden. And the second subject of the finale - what a wondrously suave melody. Does anyone know if Ormandy ever conducted the Mighty Philly Orchestra in this work? Best, D.
Really gratifying to find somebody waxing lyrical about the first symphony I ever bought----Kertesz/ LSO, 1967--and have loved ever since. A Dvorak aficianado since hearing the New World, always valued his orchestral music for its ability to convey a sense of the natural world. Ergo, my then 6- year old daughter's comment on hearing the Fifth's opening bars; "Daddy, that sounds like somebody walking up a mountain."
PS Sorry about lines through the post. No idea what prompted them.
@@robertbond9358 You can remove the lines.. click on the 3 little dots on the right-hand side of your comments, then click on EDIT. You can then remove the lines by ELIMINATING the DASH in between the words "bought" and "Kertesz". I've had problems with this, so now I use either ...... or a colon.
Your daughter is very perceptive; brava! My comment to an audience when I conducted the 5th was "like stepping outside on a lovely, sunny Spring morning." But any nature-inspired description will do! LR
Great review. It is time to get Dvorak out of the shadow of Brahms. His vl.concerto is on a pare with Brahms and better orchestrated. When I was asked to do the 3rd I jumped at it, his Eroica. I never did 5 unfortunately. People make the mistake thinking Dvorak is simple Bohemian dance tune. How wrong they are.
I agree with list 90%. All are fine performances. You didn't mentioned Suitner, Otmar (conductor)
Staatskapelle Berlin on Berlin Classics. I find the 5th Symphony the highlight of his cycle. Like what you said in your ClassicsToday "what a rousing finale" and I couldn't agree more.
Yes, Suitner could have gone into the list but I liked "5 of 5."
Hoovering to Brahms' First Symphony. What a great idea!
I just heard a recording of a whimsical performance by Kertesz with the LSO.
Time to do a IDEAL Dvorak Cycle!
I beg of you, David =)
Kept waiting for you to mention that the arpeggio theme rhythm (long-long-ta-da) returns, loudly, on a trumpet, in the Eighth Symphony! (I think the Eighth works in the same progressive-variation way with every theme in the piece deriving from some portion of the opening cello tune.)
Yes, it does. I wrote about that in my Dvorak book.
I bought the Sejna 5 decades ago when I was in junior high school. I wanted 1 (Supraphon) after hearing it on the radio; but it wasn't in the record store Dvorak bin. So I bought the 5 because it was numerically the closest Dcorak symphony in the bin (no 2, 3, or 4) and I reasoned it would therefore sound more like 1 than 6, 7, 8, or 9. Idiot reasoning; but my first Dvorak symphonies were therefore 1, 5, and 9.
Which reminded me... Sir Donald Tovey whom you have mentioned has written a delightful Symphony himself, which might give you an idea for a new series of obscure symphonic works well worth digging into
Great Dave as always!
I have all your references and I share your opinions (for personal taste I prefer Rowicki to Kubelik) ... what do you think of Kosler with Slovak? what a great orchestra (and great recording) Czech with Belohlavek !! Greetings from Sardinia!
Great stuff Dave! 'Symphonism' Wow is that a word!?
I didn't think so until I presented at this symposium. I guess it is now.
@@DavesClassicalGuide haha - a symphonism symposium !!
Fully agree either about the importance of the fifth either about Neumann and that magnificent orchestra which is cech Phil!!
David, with regard to Supraphon allowing you to play samples from their recordings, before I came across your videos 5 or 6 months ago I had been buying classical music CDs for over 20 years but didn't have one recording by Supraphon and knew nothing about the label. Now I have about 70, mostly their boxes of 3 to 12 discs but also a bunch of individual discs. There is a treasure trove of great recordings on that label. Let them know when you talk to them that you are selling a lot of their recordings and tell them to keep those box sets in print.
Thank you. I will.
My experience with cyclic form is that when you hear a motif recur you think about how it has changed since the last time you heard it and that causes you to think ahead instead of thinking back even though you are hearing something that came before.
I am not suggesting any influence, but, but Dvorák's no 5 has a similar open air freshness of another fine no 5, by Schubert, both have wonderful lyrical writing for the woodwind and are full of wonderful melodies.
Very interesting, had never really thought of the Brahms 3/Dvorak 5 connection, but it certainly is there. There's also a Brahms 3/Raff 3 connection (both in F as well) and here there is a definite correlation between the coda of both finales. The Raff 3 predates even Dvorak 5 by several years (1869-70). Finally, there is the Schumann/Brahms connection; not only does Brahms quote Schumann 3 at the beginning, but the fact that Brahms 3 is in F undoubtedly has something to with a transposed tonality sequence derived from the published order of Schumann's symphonies: B-flat, C, E-flat, d (Schumann) becomes c, D, F, e (Brahms). I totally agree with your preference regarding recordings of Dvorak 5. I hear a lot of negative criticism regarding Kubelik's cycle, and I don't get it. I think it's fabulous.
Would the Schumann symphony been numbered as "3" in Brahms's time?
@@ThreadBomb Yes, it was the last of the four to have been composed, of course, and the original version of what is now known as the fourth was written after the first, but the published sequence, with the revision of that work as No. 4, was firmly established during Schumann's lifetime (he died in 1856). The fact that Brahms' four symphonies present a transposed sequence (up a whole step) of the tonal centers of Schumann's four symphonies is clearly a tribute to Brahms' friend and former mentor.
Nonsense.
@@DavesClassicalGuide So you think the key sequence correspondence is an accident? I sincerely doubt it, but we all have a right to our opinion.
@@nb2816 You have no proof to the contrary, and there is no independent evidence of such a correspondence (especially when it's not even direct, but transposed, which makes it even more far-fetched). Any suggestion to the contrary is simply a typical example of the "post hoc ergo propter hoc" logical fallacy.
Unfortunately the Kubelik and Kertesz sets both have the 5th split between two discs, and my playback equipment (and listening routine) is apparently from the early 1990s. Happily I have single CDs Jarvi(Chandos) and Kertesz(London). Still I want that Kubelik set. Any thoughts on the big Kubelik/DG box?
The big Kubelik box is great, but just get the Fifth as a download and you're in business. Anyway, I don't think switching discs is that much of a big deal.
Awesome work Dave - love your great videos. Yes! Dvorak is not Brahms! The superb qualities of the fifth and sixth symphonies have been under-appreciated for far too long. And I agree - one should never solely rely on programme notes or musicologists to tell you what sounds good or not - use your ears!!
Also, I’m pretty sure most of what little I know about this work I got from reading your Dvorak Listener’s Guide...talk about the blind leading the blind (kidding, kidding).
I have both Kertesz and Kubelik cycle👍👍
Any Dvorak book recommendations (in addition to your own)? Most of what I've found seem to focus on his time in America... would be more interested in a full biography.
We badly need one.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I must assume there is a Czech one already, in which case it's a question of finding and translating it.
which is the best Dvorak symphony in your opinion?
I don't believe in such things.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I understand, so which is your favourite and why?
@@nefertithy I don't believe in such things.
I always thought the symphony that most bears the stamp of Brahms influence, Dvorak's sixth, was his dreariest and least individual.
Wonderful analysis of a wonderful symphony. It was the Kubelik recording that first revealed its charms to me, though I also know and like the Rowicki and Jansons. I don't think the Kubelik cycle gets enough credit. Critics always seem to prefer Kertesz. Kertesz is OK, but Kubelik plays the symphonies con amore, whereas Kertesz favors energy over lyricism. Or so it seems to me, Rowicki is bold and energetic, too (except in the Seventh, as you pointed out), but somehow captures the charm of these works, partcularly the earlier ones, better than Kertesz.
I love the first three movements of Dvorak's 5th. I like the finale slightly less - it stomps around and seems a bit forced to me. But the first three movements are absolutely wonderful, mature Dvorak.
Dvorak was influenced over the years by Wagner, Brahms, and Tchaikovsky. But so what - he has a style all his own that is absolutely and uniquely identifiable at least from 1870 onwards.
Wagner, yes. Tchaikovsky, no, Not a bit.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Certainly, there is little in Dvorak that sounds like Tchaikovsky.
But Dvorak deeply admired Tchaikovsky and knew his music inside-out.
I think it's in opera that the influence can be found most clearly - the beginning of Rusalka, for example, with its short prelude and introductory scene with the three wood sprites is very reminiscent of the beginning of Eugene Onegin (an opera that Dvorak knew very well and liked) with its short, atmosphere-setting introduction and opening ensemble number with female voices.
And there are commentators who have noted structural and motivic similarities between Dvorak's Eighth and Tchaikovsky's Fifth. The Eighth was actually intended for Russia before it ended up being premiered in England.
I absolutely do not consider Dvorak to be a derivative or second rate composer by saying he was influenced by certain things. Beethoven was influenced by Cherubini, for crying out loud.
And as you rightly say, however much or little Brahms may have directly influenced Dvorak, above all they were kindred spirits who shared artistic values. Dvorak and Tchaikovsky were also kindred spirits when it came to music for the stage and symphonic poems.
@@marknewkirk4322 You've got it mixed up: it's the New World Symphony that's said to be inspired by the Tchaikovsky 5th.
@@marknewkirk4322 Nice try, but simply not true. In fact, Dvorak was not an uncritical admirer of Tchaikovsky. He hated the Fourth Symphony especially, and while admired other pieces you can like something without copying it. The game of "find the influence" can easily go too far, as I believe you do here.
I'll stay out of the Dvorak/Tchaikovsky thing, but Mark N. correctly identifies the problem with the Dvorak 5th's finale; don't get me wrong, it's my FAVORITE of Dvorak's symphonies..but his long-recognized Wagnerism impedes the finale somewhat..all that turbulence and "stomping"..which was NOT what Dvorak did best; you can almost feel him "working his way out of it" as the movement proceeds.
When I performed the 5th (in 2016), I demonstrated Dvorak's debt to Wagner by playing a brief excerpt...a lugubrious chorale for low clarinets, trombones, etc....and rhetorically asked the crowd "which Wagner opera do you suppose THAT's from..?" only to reveal that it was the opening bars of the slow movement of Dvorak's OWN 4TH Symphony. Then we played the opening bars of the FIFTH...like stepping outside on a lovely, sunny morning in Spring.
You'll probably all choke, but it's also Bruckner that echoes through the Finale..in the exquisite, shifting harmonies of the Secondary Theme; it's the same sort of "promenade/procession" style tune that we see as secondary subject in the Finales of Bruckner's 3rd and 7th. But, considering that Dvorak's 5th PREDATES Both Bruckner 3 and 7, it's possible that Dvorak's influence in and around Vienna might have been more important than anyone would have thought. Who knows? But I'm NOT fishing around here playing "find the influence"..too many more important things to do with one's time. But I was Immediately struck by the Dvorak 5/Bruckner 7 similarity the first time I heard them. LR
I agree. I own Kubelik (super), Kertesz (great), Rowicki (very very good) and Suitner (very good). But I have also Libor Pesek. Can Pesek be considered one of the worst recording?
No, not by a mile.
I really like Pesek's recording of the 6th. Surely one of the reference recordings of that particular work.
@@artistinbeziers7916 I don't have the Pesek's set, only the 5th, but I'll consider your indication.
@@giacomomazzola4123 Thanks, but it is only my opinion, as a music-lover. I'm not involved in the music profession. However, I would be interested to exchange opinions, etc...
Pesek (delightful)
Yes this is an unjustly neglected work, I've always counted it as Dvorak's first great symphony, wonderful opening, though I've always thought the last movement too long in proportion with the rest - not that I'd want to be the one to decide what to leave out!
I love the finale, and I hope that the analysis gives at least some sense of how it makes logical sense within the context of the whole.
@@DavesClassicalGuide yes David, I must say your analysis is very interesting, particularly the links to Brahms 3 - I've often thought they are both in a similar pastoral style but you point out technical similarites too which I hadn't noticed before
And wasn't Dvorak's 7th - my favourite - inspired by Brahms' 3rd?
Existentially, yes, musically, not so much.