Ultra Efficient & Comfortable HVAC - Mitsubishi VRF System Tour
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- čas přidán 2. 07. 2024
- Mitsubishi's Variable Refrigerant Flow technology is really the finest HVAC equipment in the marketplace today from the standpoint of efficiency and comfort. Join me as we look at my first install of a VRF system with standard upflow ducting.
It's amazing to watch this video and see how far this equipment has come today. thank you guys
Truly superlative video. I appreciated Kristof explaining the acronyms and introducing each new term as well as the on screen graphic when introducing a new term or device. His car throttle analogies are excellent. This video is a real eye opener, and very timely for me as I am planning to replace a 20 year old HVAC system in a 60+ year old house. Thanks to Matt and Kristof for this introduction into a whole new way to think about home comfort, air quality and energy efficiency.
Great point! In general, a tight modern house with a heat pump can operate at the same cost or less than a gas furnace. And these Mitsubishi heat pumps have an air temp on heat setting above 110 so the air coming out feels "hot". Many people object to heat pumps because of the air feeling "cold" meaning it's in the 90's so it's less than your 98 body temp. Best, Matt
This is awesome. I can’t wait to get my brain on VRF training. I’m a 1st year apprentice in Southern California looking to take any type of training I can get!!
Good question! I just finished a project with a pretty accessible low static pressure ducted air handler. I'll see if I can get that shot in the coming few weeks. Best,
Matt
Hey no problem, all your videos are fantastic, I love seeing new and improved products and building practices, keep um coming. Jason
Really enjoyed these early videos. They had more info and less ego.
Joe, Always appreciate your great feedback. Yes, I was concerned this was too long. I should have done this in a 4 minute version and an 8 minute version with less tangents. I get talking about this stuff and I'm so excited I don't want to leave out any details! I'll work on another shorter VRF overview video. Best, Matt
@cowboydanrice: Great Questions! We are utilizing a Panasonic ERV for ventilation. The Heat Pump Water Heater provides some supplemental dehumidification and cooling but we didn't install and Ultra-Aire Dehumidifier on this project. We have a spot in the mechanical closet for a small 70 pint/day plug in dehum and will likely add that to the system. Best, Matt
Very good point. I hadn't thought about that, but that is a big selling point if you are using a backup generator. Appreciate your comments and loyalty to my video blog. Best, Matt
Good stuff, technology has really come a long way in just 20 years.
I would expect this system to price out 20-30% more than traditional equipment. Best, Matt
Luke, Great questions. I'll talk to Kristof and see if we can do an Ultra-Geek version of this video to get more technical. I'm a huge believer in this technology and I wanted to get this first video shot with my first finished install. Hope to get that out in a few months. I've got several jobs starting with Mitsubishi VRF equipment this summer so there will be many more opportunities. Best, Matt
Yes, on the tripod. I do have a Sony Bluetooth mic on my shirt but this wasn't the best shoot. I'm hoping to have a dual wireless Sennheiser mics this summer! I'll have to ask about the tech question on the TXV...Best, Matt
I like these home performance videos they are very helpful
Love the VRF systems. Awesome
I didn't know marky mark was into hvac systems, cool. 👍
Yes, it's a Mitsubishi upflow air handler (though i think it's made by a third party). They have other high static pressure models too for horizontal flow R & L as well as many low static pressure units and head/cassette options. I'll see if we can do the UberGeek version sometime with Kristof. I was already concerned with the length of this video, round 2 can be more in-depth. Best, Matt
Don't be concerned about the length. You covered a lot of ground but It all made sense and wove together with the intro to this newer technology.
One of the great things of Vranizan is that you can cool one area of the structure while heating another at the same time. This increases the efficiency as well. Currently we are investigating Chiltrix heat pump chillers.
I asked my Mitsubishi rep and they report 28 year average life span. That's a good 10-15% more than most of the American brands I would expect. Payback is a tougher question. I did a recent analysis on VRF vs Conventional 2 Stage equipment for a 4000sf house I'm remodeling and it came out to a net annual savings on electricity of $400. For that house it's an 11 year payback, BUT what doesn't factor in is the increased comfort AND the possible savings for not installing a Dehum. Matt
Super presentation. For the rest of us working on the Metric system, could you please provide the have the kilowatts in text at the bottom? That would be great. Thank you
Thank you for these educational videos. I sincerely appreciate the work you put into them. I am a guy who likes to do my research and understand the products I am buying. I am sold on this technology and product by Mitsubishi, but finding a reputable HVAC company is a daunting and discouraging task. Ugh!!! ;-) There has to be a better way.
Another great video, Matt. Some people should also consider the savings of an all electric home due to the absence of the natural gas fee. I know I personally spend well over a hundred dollars a year just for the monthly service fees. If the operating cost of the heat pump is a little higher, you still might come out ahead considering you don't pay the gas fee. You could also offset some of the operating expense with a solar panel or two.
Good question, but hard to answer exactly. Likely it's going to add 15-20% to the installed cost of a good HVAC system with 2 stage equipment. I would expect that cost to come down as it starts to become more known by Texas HVAC contractors. Best, Matt
Matt Risinger Love reading your replies! Great micro bits of info
Excellent!!!
Thanks for this interesting video. Like a lot of people here, I'm very interested in the air handling side, particularly using multiple smaller ducted units, and what installations that serve a few rooms look like. I think we're pretty familiar with the "single high-static" conventional units, and the "wall wart" mini-splts, but the "low-static" ducted units are really interesting (though unfamiliar). Lots of great questions here, too.
I've watched your various videos on VRF. I get the technical reasons to consider a VRF, even as a retrofit to replace an aging HVAC. What I haven't seen is any detail on the installed costs of VRF versus a traditional/standard heat pump HVAC. Any feedback would be great.
When on lowest capacity, wall mounts does not dehumidify very well, also adds humidity back to air, when unit does eventually cycle, because indoor fan does not stop.
Thank you for this videos. I want to work with you guys!
Matt, love your videos. It is great to see the efficient and tech side of construction.
Had two questions about this install.
1) Is there any reason for using a VRF for a single zone over a normal mini split outdoor unit? I see the real advantage of VRF systems when you start to use multiple zones where you can cool one zone and heat another zone simultaneously / using the heat pulled from one zone to heat the other.
2) Why is the return located below the unit on the 1st floor. Not to mention a small return duct inside the utility closet?
I would think you would want to pull return air from at least the top of 1st floor if not higher. I have always found returns at the bottom of upflows as trouble due to not pulling from the hot air above and also pulling in excessive dirt and dust from the floor.
Thanks for your videos, they are always informative. and appreciated!
- Ben
I really would love some more nitty-gritty technical details on these. Maybe you can do a more technical video on this? How are multiple evaporator coils (air handlers) tied to one VRF condenser, is there refrigerant solenoids? What air handlers are your using? What are the controls, is it a special communicating thermostat designed for the Mitsubishi condenser and how is that controlling the air handler?
The model # on the air handler would be a huge help.
I'm a Waco Texan who's always known there HAS to be a better way to cool us down here. Dehumidifiers are clunky, noisy, etc. But except for west Texas our humidity is miserable. And I HATE the ceiling fans needed to get air flow in my older house with 8' ceilings. I'm here in 2023 hoping the price is coming down for these. I'll certainly check next time I need HVAC replacement.
Common mis-nomer. This heat pump can operate this high performance home more efficiently (for less money and more comfort) than a Gas furnace and it blows air hotter than 110F so it "feels warm". I need to verify the stat, but I believe this Mitsu can provide heat down to 5 degrees F outside. Best, Matt
I think I may have to listen to this video several times....
One thing I wish you would have covered is if all so-called mini-split condensing units are VRF or if some run at full capacity all the time, whether they are ducted or not. Thanks
Your hvac guy is very good as you are. Like the use of graphics as you speak. Just a suggestion, maybe two shorter videos or change locations..?? maybe not just suggestion. As usual great job.
Very nice system. So when the neighborhood loses power, this unit won't require as big of a generator to run, since the initial start up surge has been virtually eliminated?
They might have to change the ASHRAE standard temperature for Austin as the heat wave continues each year
Thank You for this Video. Is it possible for you to Make a Video or Explain in Detail, why Mitsubishi is a better equipment brand than Fujitsu or Chinese brands and why its worth the price premium. Thanks!
That’s great.
Thanks for a great video! How does this system compare in price to a traditional system?
The cost differential is very reasonable for the added comfort and energy savings. I was thinking it may be ridiculous like geothermal.
This is a 9 year old video and there still are very few VRF's made for the residential market.
"video blog" we've sure come a long way lol
The initial cost of install and future cost of repairs of these VRF’s are insane... not to mention most suppliers do NOT stock a ton of parts for these systems, this means when it breaks you will be without AC for a while waiting for parts...
Is the air handler also made by Mitsubishi? Do they have other models other than just up flow? I would also like to see an Ultra-Geek version of the video.
Thanks,
Andre
Matt, this air handler just needs these 2 air return ducts to function ? So no need for return air ducts for the rest of the rooms and house ?
Great vids first off. But as a hvac guy and I'm speaking above my head a little, but I wonder as the nation transitions to vrf which I agree will happen especially as building envelopes tighten up is there going to be negative ramifications do to harmonics caused by ecm motors on the ac grid? I know this is off topic of the vi
I'm not a HVAC guy, but I work with electronics and software to "Electronically Commutate" (EC) DC motors. By harmonics, so you mean pulse width modulation (PWM) noise? If so, most motors can be run above 20 KHz freq, inaudible to human ears.
Matt, do you have a recommendation for a similar Mitsubishi VRF with Ultra-Air installation in the Houston, TX area?
I plan o building a traditional 2700sqft house with 4 bd 2.5ba, a large living and kitchen, all 1 level except bonus room, how many heads would you need to heat and cool this, do you need one in every room? I’m in Zone 4 Tennessee
How are you ventilating and dehumidifying the house? It appears the house has no ventilation or ability to dehumidify.
What’s the difference between VRF& Standard when it comes to air filtration?
I don't understand the dislike for mini splits. They work great. Here in the north I would much rather have a mini split for cooling coupled with a good hydronic heating system. Forget the bulky ducts.
In CT, that is what I am shooting for. I have legacy a hydronic oil fired boiler, but will use mini-split for AC and the shoulder seasons for heating (Spring / Fall).
I wonder how this compares to HyoerHeat systems
Hey Matt... Why don't you use electronic filters instead of those pleated filters? I had my guy put 2 in my current home (has 2 complete systems in the home) and I love them. Don't have to change anything at all.
I should mention 2 caveats:
1. I did have to get used to the sound at first because it sounds like a bug zapper at times; it's not loud and obnoxious though.
2. The "up front" cost was significantly higher than just installing the pleated system.
You need regular filters as well. You can not supplant electronic filters for physical ones.
How do you zone a single indoor coil system without using dampers? By dampers, I mean any kind of air flow volume controlling device, such as a venturi.
I'm Skeptical About Pulling Return Air From Closet.
Door Of Closet Should Have Louver Vent Or Return
Should Have Been In Short Wall Matt Was Standing By.
Check the video again, there are two return grilles, one is facing the foyer.
What is the equipment cost vs typical system we see here in Texas?
Matt do you or have you ever used mini duct?
You're using it as a heat pump in winter or do you have gas also? I don't think anything can beat gas operating cost wise. Heat pumps can be expensive to operate in winter.
what about setting up geothermal air pipes to feed the condenser fan inlet, either by dropping the unit below grade or enclosed in above ground housing with 4 or more, 6" underground drain pipes 50-100' long?? (what ever the cfm calcs would need)
Both my conventional units crapped out here in Phoenix. Is there a Mitsubishi VRF installer for Phoenix you can recommend?
How does this compare to an ERV or HRV? Does a VRF replace or complement those systems?
Hello matt...great review,iam from India.planning a vrf system for my home...can you pls advise me which is the best vrf system out there....n why..?
Aby Mathew Daiken
Do you do any builds in Charleston South Carolina?
Hi Matt, we are building in Florida. Would this unit cancel the need for a whole house dehumidifier? Thanks!
Who do you recommend for VRF installations in the Austin area?
Contact McCullough www.coolmenow.com Great guys who specialize in Mitsubishi installs in Austin
3:50 this bit right here is huge because if you don't have a soft starter you have to size your breakers for the surge/inrush current. If the equipment doesn't come with it I would ask about adding a soft starter if possible on any large amperage equipment
7:49 I don't know why people object to mini-split heads: they offer functionality like oscillating fans (that can run when you're not heating and cooling) that dumb registers can't.
11:25 why is part of your return in the closet? It's not doing anything with the door closed. Also if you're not multiple zoning in a (new) two story house you're not taking full advantage of a system like this.
Kristoff looks like a muppet but he's a smart guy
where can i buy one?
Is Mitsubishi VRF syteme's still your number one go to company? Or is Carrier, LG, Fujitsu VRF systems just as good?
Great video, would this work on a whole house system in South Florida?
TheAthleteLifestyle - I’m tearing down my 100+ year old home and building a new one in its place here in SW Florida, going from 2 stories 4000 sqft to 1.5 stories and 2650 sqft and yes, we’re installing a VRF system that more than meets the demands of our climate. One major difference with my new house tho, it’s being built with a shell made of a sandwich of concrete board and 8” of closed-cell foam and triple-glazed windows so it’s base insulation score is 40... adding the ERV for fresh air, the Tesla SolarRoof and PowerWalls (x2) brings it down to a net zero energy (passive) home standard. 11 days without power after Hurricane Irma made it important to me to never have to go without power again and I *_hate_* generators, hence the solar PV and battery systems (along with quite a few other whizbang renewable techs).
orion khan Nice, sounds like an amazing build!
Hey Matt love your chanel. Quick question as a 5 year HVAC vet I spent about 3 months installing VRF systems in UT, mostly Daikin. My understanding is one of the big draws of VRF is the ability to heat and cool different zones off of one outdoor unit. City Multi is one of these systems so why just the one airhandler if you wanted to do it that way why not get a standard ducted minisplit with variable speed motors and compressors?
every room will require its own indoor unit.
@@LordRedDragon Not necessarily true. Every zone would require its own fan coil unit and you would need a BS box. However my piint still applies why use a VRF system if you are not going to utilize their purpose.
Larson
Good luck finding a real VRF heat recovery system for residential.
Just because you have a branch box does not mean you can heat and cool simultaneously. I know Mitsubishi doesn’t have those units for residential.
Impossible to get in touch with Positive Energy... Everything I read and saw had me wanting to use them. Miguel the Business Manager scheduled 2 calls with us and no showed on both of them. When I contacted him afterwards (they won't give out their phone number) he complained that I wasn't understanding enough that he was busy (he picked the call times -- not me) and refused to talk to us!
No idea what he is like if you actually talk to him, but if he doesn't like you you might be treated poorly (like us).
Does the system come with its own TXV (TEV)? With a VFD compressor setup I am not sure I would trust a standard $40 TEV for such a wide range of refrigerant and air handler fan speeds. The keystone to the entire system working would be a good TXV.
Side note. Matt we have to get you a tri-pod and a portable mic.
These systems do not have standard TEVs they use a more expensive EEV or electric expansion valve that modulates the flow of refrigerant down to 10,000 steps. This is all digitally controlled.
Decrease the coil temperature to dehumidify, not increase.
What they don't say is the initial cost of these systems is significantly higher. Secondly, these are highly complex systems. With significant computerized/electronic controls. As these units are outdoor basking in +100F degrees IT WILL FAIL. In other words, GUARANTEED it will have issues within the 1st. 10 years. Then 2 things - 1. Hardly any technician one will find who understands / certified. So - best of luck in terms of high labor costs 2. The parts are niche and incredibly costlier than standard systems. Best of luck there. 3. Finally, if fails rest assured you'll need to deal with the manufacturer to get the parts and when in summer in TX and temp at around 100F think of a 1 to 2 week or more before parts are available. So, all those talk about cost savings due to energy savings (utlility costs) after factoring in the high capital costs 1 repair and all savings just flow out of the window.
All this talk of dehumidification, but what scares me is In a lot of Forced air systems here in the NorthEast I see humidifiers attached to them. Although this is supposed make things more comfortable by reducing dryness of the air and also optimize warmth, I just see visions of all that moisture introduced into the air migrating right out to the external walls and condensing there. And we're talking here the newest homes built in like the 80s and 90s, most of those being townhouses. Unless you're talking custom built mcmansions, vast majority of single family houses around here were built form the 40s - 70s, 80s if you're really lucky. So none of your fancy waterproofings and wraps. I'm talking mostly brick or vinyl sidings and who knows what's under them. Wouldn't be surprised if the newer ones have mostly OSB. Isn't moisturizing HVAC hot air a really bad idea? Will it cause lots of trashed and moldy insulation?
Do you know anybody in the northeast like this Positive Energy guy?
Great video! Is the guy in the blue shirt related to Matt Damon?
99 degrees is the worst day?!?!?!?
Oh shit that's quiet!
GeoThermal (Ground Source Heat Pumps) are generally thought of as the Top Of The Line system for efficiency, but in my opinion these Variable Refrigerant Flow systems are a much better investment for both efficiency AND comfort. I'm working on a blog post about this...coming soon. Best, Matt Risinger risinger.blogspot.com
Matt Risinger you can do geothermal VRF just as easy.
Matt how do i get heat out of this system when its cold? I live in Pennsylvania when the temps outside get very cold in the winter. My current system locks out at 40 degrees outside temp. I need an outside unit that can generate heat well below that temp. Any suggestions my home has ducted system which i want to keep.
+Mr504319 the Mitsubishi hyper heat pumps retain full heating capacity below zero outside
@@buildshow mat do they have these units that operate off of a ducted air handler in my basement. The house is about 3200 square feet 2 story.
Thanks
Mitsubishi has a whole line up of indoor air handlers that use standard ductwork. They Hyperheat models will heat at 100% capacity down to 5degF and will heat all the way down to -13degF at reduced capacity. Here’s the link to their air handlers. meus1.mylinkdrive.com/M-Series/R410A+Systems/Multi-Position+Air+Handler/index.html
Would this be good for a small passive home? Or are there even more efficient low capacity models?
could you please explain how the zone system works in more detail? not sure if you're familiar with the emme system. getemme.com It utilizes sensors in each room which speaks to a pneumatic damper in each duct to control air flow.
VRFs are good machines but I still prefer a single split system simply due to the fact that if the outdoor unit breaks down all the indoor units are useless.
We learned the hard way when our Daikin system’s distribution valve something broke down we had to wait for weeks for the part to come in and for a service guy to be available for booking.
The house was a nightmare.
We are using Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and Hitachi inverter air conditioners in our home now and couldn’t be happier!
ULTRA quiet and super efficient, upfront cost is expensive AF but worth every penny.
What's the estimated lifespan of a VRF unit? And what's the payback schedule of one vs. a standard 2-stage SEER 15?
NOBODY cares about the so called 'payback' people want COMFORT AND QUALITY!
4 tons for 2000 sqft !?! That seems pretty excessive... was this a remodel and not a new build? Maybe the VRF systems can’t be compared by tonnage with conventional systems?
Just like he said in the video, they install based on the hottest/coldest times of the year. Most Hvac companies (not all..) will sell you less then you actually need. Meaning more $ for them when you need them to come back. It’s a 4 ton because Matt and his Hvac expert wanted to ensure that his customer was comfortable all year long. I hope this helps!
Just wish Mitsubishi would have reheat dehumidification on these systems, like carriers been doing for a decade.....
Managing RH inside the home is crucial, and using separate equipment ends up being unreliable and unnecessary barrier to success.
camera man needs to lock the camera aperture.
No American models, and then some people say why everything is imported from Asia :0
For others asking I am wondering the same thing about the air handlers and controls I have been able to find the tech data on the Mitsubishi air handlers. CZcams does not accepts URLs in comments so change the backslash to forward slash.
goo.gl\mWGHz (change backslash to forward slash)
The air handlers look a little different though for instance how the condensate drain is orientated.
This is basically a sales video.
scratch the portable mic comment
mitsubishi is NOT the only brand that offers these features and they are NOT the best equipment out there, the TRUTH is, its not the equipment, because they are all GOOD, it all boils down to the install quality . PERIOD this is just another advertisment for mitsubishi , lol
Dude seriously your phone
and you mean INVERTER SYSTEM, NOT A VRF SYSTEM
There is no way that a 4 ton unit starts at LRA then runs at 40 amps RLA! If that’s the case then the compressor is more than likely not coming on and even tripping the breaker at the main panel! My 2 stage Trane 18 SEER heat pump with variable speed air handler comes on at 20 amps with a start assist kit then goes to 8-9 amps on first stage and then if needed the second stage goes to 11 amps. Even on older 2 stage systems I don’t see this kind of amp draws. This information is incorrect that you’re giving to people. If you have proof of it then show it with a meter attached when a two stage system turns on and then idles out. This information is very misleading!
Fujitsu is most efficient.