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Low-Voltage Lighting Systems and the House of Yesterday’s Tomorrow Today
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- čas přidán 24. 08. 2021
- How a 1940's lighting system made a smarter 1950’s home possible.
In this first episode, I am going to cover some history and the components of an interesting home lighting control system commonly referred to as a low-voltage lighting system. These systems were manufactured by GE Lighting, Bryant Electric, Sierra (later Pass and Seymour), Pyramid Electric, and a ton of other companies you've probably never heard of. I'll also give you a rundown of what Smarter Circuits is and what you might expect from future videos.
If you're looking for more information on how to install Shelly relays to replace your old low-voltage lighting system, be sure to subscribe to the channel and check out the next video which will cover wiring and configuring the Shelly WiFi relays, setting up MQTT on a Raspberry Pi, writing a simple Python Flask API and Python monitoring program, building a touchscreen interface with TKinter in Python, and building a simple Angular single-page application to control and view information about your relays.
This is my first go of this, so... be gentle, interwebs, be gentle.
Check out Episode 2 for more information on Shelly relay wiring and control:
• Control Circuits With ...
Links to stuff from the episode:
Kyle's Switch Plates
www.kyleswitchplates.com/low-...
North Central Washington Home Inspections Article
www.ncwhomeinspections.com/low....
Shelly Relays:
amzn.to/3japXQ9
Also, make sure you follow us on Twitter @CircuitsSmarter
and if you're interested in supporting the growth and improvement of the channel, join us on Patreon:
/ smartercircuits
Never heard of Touch-Plate until today and have not found the other four videos. Thank you for your efforts. I will be watching.
I've also added this comment to the description with a little blurb. I'll do a video after I get through some other things to address these kinds of concerns. I might lump it in with other data degradation topics general users should consider and perhaps talk about my RAIDs.
You are hilarious! Thank you for infusing so much humor into a lesson on low voltage lighting systems. I bought my house a year ago too and am trying to learn about these things. Thanks for going down the rabbit hole for me!
That's great to hear. And thank you so much! I wish you all the best with your new found project!
Me too! My mother in law bought a house with this lighting control system. I was totally baffled since I'd never seen anything like it. As you said there is very limited information on it so I'm extremely thankful for your explanation in an easy to follow and humorous manner.
My brain hurts from trying to retain all the information given in this video. Nice work! I look forward to the rest of them!
Awesome, thank you! Working on the next videos, should be back on track within the next couple of weeks.
Ian, my wife and I got married over a decade ago and shortly after we looked at a house built in 1961 that needed work but architecturally was probably the coolest house I’ve ever seen and could also afford. Turns out it was already under contract so we couldn’t buy it. Fast forward to this week: it went up for sale again but had a lot of work done to it over that time. We ended up getting a contract to buy it. Since it had been over 10 years I did not remember the GE momentary switches but I knew something was different when I pressed one and heard a 60 Hz hum while the button was depressed. So I started to research which led me to you today. I have inspections next week, so hopefully all goes well. I noticed in the attic today what looked like a ton of brown 300 ohm flat antenna wire sections connected to a terminal block. I just assumed somebody wanted TV in every room and there was an amplifier. But now I’m putting 2 and 2 together.
I’ll be educating myself on your channel! Subscribed!
P. S. I am sorry if I spelled your name wrong.
That's fantastic and I wish you the best of luck. It can be a bit of a gamble on the type of system, but they can be quite useful if you have a taste for tinkering--and it sounds like you do. That buzzing you're hearing is more than likely a stuck relay, but at least it should be easy to confirm which one is which when you locate either the fixtures or box(es).
I've been through a lot of trial and error situations with my own system, but I am very lucky to have a central location for my relays. If yours are the GE RR7 relays, chances are they're in a box (or boxes) like mine and somewhere you'll find the 24VAC transformer (or multiple if it's a large enough system). Just don't confuse the doorbell transformer if you have one. They seem to have used the same wire in a lot of cases--I'm guessing it was cheap or at least already on hand.
I hope my videos give you some ideas, and feel free to come back and share what you come up with.
I should do an updated video on the whole subject now that I know a bit more and have tried out more devices.
I appreciate the sub, and yes, you spelled my name right. :)
I bought my GE low voltage wired home 15 years ago, originally built in 1960 by A GE executive with 6 kids. We are only the second owners. Thankfully, the original owner left blueprints, wiring diagrams and brochures for the system. We had to replace the transformer once and we've converted some outlets that were switch controlled to always hot, but it's been a rock solid system for the most part.. Thanks for your site!
Oh man, that's awesome of them to leave that. I'm working on drawing out everything and making instructions for whoever comes next for their peace of mind. Passing it on, you know?
Thank you for this video!! I have purchased a house recently with the GE low voltage system and I was definitely a bit lost at first. After watching this video I am excited with all the possibilities that come with this system.
I am glad to hear it! They can seem daunting and they definitely require some TLC, but in the end, I think they're worth the extra effort. I'll be getting back to some improvement to my system this fall. Best of luck with your system!
This video is amazing. I’ve got this same low voltage system with what appears to be Bryant. Love the encouragement to figure out what I can do with this rather than scrap it.
Good to hear you've been inspired! I'll have a video coming soon that goes over rewiring switches more in-depth. It may be a couple weeks before I can finish it--work demands more attention lately.
Thanks for making this, I've lived in a house for 20+ years with two Remcon panels. Shocked to see they quit making replacements when I started the latest repair. Look forward to seeing the next videos.
I appreciate the view! Yeah, it's sad that they didn't just take the opportunity to bring such a great idea into the next century. Could've been a cheap way to bring quality products back. A rare win-win situation.
So excited to find a youtube channel with content on these systems! I recently purchased a horse farm with a very large barn that has a GE low voltage control system in it. A lot of it still works but I had been thinking of swapping out the relays for Shelly units - and it's super cool to see that I'm not the only one with that idea!
this is like group therapy for people living in low voltage houses - with the host, calmly relaxing everyone. Almost like a cross between Rod Sterling and Bob Vila. Yes I also have lived in a relay house for 20 years. Circuit's fail and I never replace - I've had electrician look at the panel and they have no interest in helping. o well - if I wait long enough I'll just use battery LED all over the house
"You're traveling through another dimension, a dimension not only of sight and sound but of low-voltage lighting..."
But seriously, what a great compliment, thank you! Though, I have cut my hair and shaved my beard, I hope I can still capture that Bob Villa vibe.
These systems can be a lot of confusion and headache, but I don't think they have to be if more people (particularly electricians) understood the history and what we were thinking when we installed them. With all the new gadgets available, folks with these systems should be able to have an even better opportunity for reliability and function. I hope you find someone to give your house that little bit of TLC you and it deserve.
@@smartercircuits Haaa Your a funny dude
Perry Mason brought me here. I was watching Season 1 from 1957-1958 on Amazon and noticed what looked like a smaller version of a Leviton Decora wall switch in Perry's office on several walls. The Kyle website identified these as Touch-plate low voltage Genesis and from there I landed here. In Episode 26 (The Case of the Half-Wakened Wife) Della Street turns off the light at around the 10:25 mark and the telltale click of the relay is heard.
This is AWESOME! I will be researching this in earnest soon. It'll make a great side video--low-voltage systems in TV and Movies.
Thanks for starting this channel. Looking forward to your next video; I also bought a home recently with GE low voltage switches.
Thank you for taking the time to watch! I'll be going back and forth with the low-voltage system, hopefully you get some inspiration from the channel, or at least a giggle here and there (I'll be adding more giggles, promise). Good luck with your house and feel free to drop a comment about your progress or if you post any videos of your own!
My parents home which they purchased in 1991 has the GE low voltage system. There are two double knob master panels, a big one as you enter the house from the garage and another smaller one in the master bedroom. When they bought this house I was off to college and the little I knew about electricity immediately told me that this was different, just hearing the clicks over by the garage every time anyone turns lights on/off was fascinating because I did realized that control signals were being sent from each room. In the recently years I've updated my house to use some Zigbee and some Lutron Caseta switches. I wanted to attempt something like this in my parents home to add some smarts but I knew that it wasn't normal and that it was not going to work. I'll have a look at the smart relays you mentioned. Maybe that is a solution. But honestly I can't believe that a house that was build in 1965 with these silent switches is still working and has never been serviced. The switches do feel mushy and I don't like them as they have yellowed after so many years. I would hate to invest any money in upgrading what feels like something that should be ripped out and replace with newer technology....but then that becomes a heck of project.
My system was from 1954. It is astounding the reliability and durability of simple electromagnetic relays--even these old snap device, solenoid versions. I agree with your sentiment on the soft, squishy nature of the switches. A good click is a safety feature most folks don't understand. the only reason I've kept mine is historical relevance, but since mine run through a secondary relay set and into a programmable input device, the worst thing that happens if they get stuck or fail is that is might confuse the input device for a moment. Eventually, I'll probably replace them in most of the house and do a video or two on it. Another thing keeping me from this task just yet is that I have 52 of the old switches in the house and I'm almost criminally lazy. I am developing a direct replacement switch plate that allows use of more modern switches, but it won't be talked about for a couple weeks. As far as replacing the relays and creating a modernized version, I am--of course--all for that and would be more than happy to be a sounding board (it sounds like you may be more capable than I in the electronics department). These Shelly relays offer three things that I think are important: cloudless integration, industrial automation technology (robust stuff), and you can more or less emulate the same system behavior for an older homeowner that doesn't need the way they've always used their house to change. At any rate, I wish you all the best whatever you decide and thank you so much for sharing your story and supporting my little channel!
I was thrilled to find your video. I grew up with a low voltage system - house built in 1958. I am realizing how futuristic it was at the time. It was almost a game when one of the touch buttons was "stuck" so you couldn't turn on or off any lights in the house until you found the stuck one. All 5 of us kids would run through the house trying to find the stuck switch, until the "I found it!" was heard. We also used to play games on our friends and go to what we called the red-light panel behind my parent's bedroom door. There are 12 light up buttons on one plate (maybe it is similar to the dial or master in your video), and you can control the lights for other rooms from there - can turn on key ceiling lights in house, plus porch and security lights outside (now always on with motion sensor). We used to go to the red-light panel and just push the buttons where our friends were to mess with them. I have single touch plates, double, triple and even one unique one with 6 smaller buttons. Some of the doubles and triples have a touch plate that turns on the top outlet for each duplex in the room or along one wall for lamps and such. The bottom outlet in each duplex is always hot and not controlled by the touch plate. I moved into the house just a few years ago after my parents were both passed. Our relays are in the attic, and I can't hear them click from the house. It is a tangled MESS but I do have extra relays and a typed list of which one controls what I found after going through all my dad's files. After watching your video, I think I am regretting changing to "standard" switches when we upgraded our kitchen and one bathroom (that one 6-button switch now only has one low voltage connection that works but I didn't remove the plate for nostalgia.) I had intentions of doing the rest eventually, but to be honest, the touch plates have some sentiment and nostalgia about them, so I'm not in any hurry, and after watching this, maybe I shouldn't. I'm definitely interested in learning more and will go through the rest of your videos. If I talk to electricians, they tend to recommend new wiring and talk about the mess in the attic, but I'm really thinking maybe they are defaulting to what they know or are just going for the most expensive option. I also think the new wiring would have to cut into my walls and we have plaster walls so I am not keen on that at all. I would like to replace the outlets which are only 2 prong, with 3 prong outlets so I don't have to use adapters. I'm assuming that wouldn't affect the touchplate, but I'm not sure. In one bedroom the touchplate does not control the bottom outlets as it used to. Can I assume that is a relay issue? Are there electricians still willing to work with this and how would I find them? I'm in Northwest PA if you happen to have any connections in this area. Sorry for so lengthy.
I am so glad to hear that! Thank you for sharing your memories, there seem to be a lot of these sort of forgotten things. It sounds like you had a Touch-Plate system with piloted switches--they'll have an extra wire coming from the relays to power the bulbs in the switches. It is possible that the issue you're experiencing is a relay, though without testing the wires, you can't really know unless you see scoring on the relay or is buzzes loudly when it's power by the switch--even momentarily. As far as electricians willing to work on them, unfortunately they seem to be non-existent, which is a shame because most of the time it isn't the relay system that's the issue as much as older actual power wires. The thing about that is, if you only ran the same amount that was there before, you'd run less than if you ran it to the wall switches and then on to the fixtures. I am in southern Ohio, so if I run into anyone, I will send them your way. Feel free to email me contact information if you'd like. It's easy to remember: smartercircuits@gmail.com
Thanks again for the kudos and the story--and I don't mind long as I'm known to write a few words myself.
Hi. I have a huge mid century home built in 1950 by some really rich people. I am not one of that category of homeowner. I am the "token" poor of my circle in Reno, NV. I have this type system. Unlike everyone else in my circle who gut these amazing homes and put in the ultra plain and sickening subway white tile and other boring cookie cutter features, I am restoring my massive home. When I say massive it is actually about 8500 sf (but thank god I am on the tax records as only 5900 sf since the appraiser was a friend of mine and had worked with me many times) and 2 full stories plus a very large basement. Almost all of this is run by this type lighting. A couple places have switch lighting. The 3rd story is a whole 800 sf apartment and it has switches. This area was for the "staff living quarters". I have no "staff" but I did ask if the home came with "staff" since I didn't have any of my own to move to the home. It came staff-less. Dang.
government
My home was designed by a pretty famous architect for my town, Fredrick Delongchamps. Since the builder of my home owned the biggest timber mill by a long shot in the 40's, these two chaps were friends. I need a ton of help with my system. First, i don't know what kind it is. I have a lot of old breaker panels and a crap load of relays in the attic. When I did insulation (of which no one else prior to 2005 thought was necessary as they were boat load rich and a high power bill wasn't a big deal to them. It is to me so I put insulation in. When this was done I put some seriously sophisticated plastic totes upside down over the relays to protect them. The licensed company I paid to do this was just going to cover them up. I saw that as a real pain if there was a problem or that this might even cause problems. I had no idea but it didn't seem smart to blow a ton of insulation on them. Now I am really glad I did that.
Over time, one learns the odd ways this stuff all works and where to go to look for the switch that is probably stuck and keeping large amounts of lights from turning on and off. The odd thing is that one button that sticks a lot (maybe because some energetic and meticulous idiot sprayed the cover with texture for painting) and it is my go to when lights won't turn on and off. You probably know this but the way these switches effect lights in other areas is crazy. That one bad switch is literally the other side of the house (a big "U" shape) and down one half a flight of stairs. Another switch that is over by some old sliding glass doors on the far end and side of the home also turns on the entry lights and we are talking a good 100 feet away from the switch. It is almost has a haunted feel.
Over the years I just figured out which buttons are stuck when lights would no operate. Until yesterday. I have 1/4 of the house not working (and unfortunately some of those lights are stuck on-- not off) and I have gone to every single button in the house and nothing is stuck. Nothing! I wanted to get a handle on this a little bit on my own before I call a electrician. Mostly when I have had to get one--- they just tell me the whole house needs to be rewired. Then I show them the door. I am not doing that and even if I had all the money in the world, I am restoring my home not updating. Bad enough trying to find pink, lilac, blue and green toilets.
I am sure the rest of the world doesn't want to hear the specifics of my sort of pathetic life so if there is a way to contact you -- I would much appreciate it. I have a hallway that has a long huge panel and it is the "control" system for the whole house. It has never worked since I got the home. It makes my hall look like the bridge of the enterprise. I had 4 of the 6 kids who grew up in it walk through it with me and explain a lot. They too are very rich now and as I mentioned, I am not.
Thanks for your time and help in advance. I know I will need a pro but "pro" and Reno are rarely used in the same sentence for a reason. I don't even like my phone so I have no intention of doing all the things you say. I am 59 and the phone I have now has surpassed the size of my ass so I am about done with these things anyway. I just want the old world in my old house. I am old, my dog is 7-- my saab is 1987 and my camper is a 1976. All of that is what I want..... I am not fond of the "new world".... and most of what you said in your commentary was a foreign language to me. I have one computer still on XP so I am not one looking for technology nor do I consider it my friend. I have that big dog for that roll. Currently my goal is to be able to turn lights on and off with the use of my hand--- specifically my index finger and being very careful to not break a nail.
Any help is appreciated!
Hello! First, thanks for watching my videos, I appreciate that a lot! I think restoration is a laudable endeavor for sure! Why lose the historic value if you like it? Also, totally agree on the white subway tile. Not a great look in my opinion, either.
The “haunting” nature of these systems is all too familiar. A lot of that is to do with the installers lazily relying on the fact that the wire order didn’t really matter, just get them to the box and connect them to something, worry about which relay controls what when they fail.
On the colored toilets: This is actually something I’ve heard dozens of people complain about when trying to bring back the mid-century theme of their homes, especially when you find a color, but not the right color for the other fixtures. So much goes into the dying process that each batch seems just a degree of a shade wrong when you put them against other pieces.
For your system, there is definitely a way to restore the functionality and not have to deal with anything too complex for your needs or tastes. Automation is great for people who don’t want to throw the switch themselves, but there’s nothing wrong with throwing the switch yourself.
You can reach me via email at smartercircuits@gmail.com and we can figure out communication from there-I use the new ways and the old ways, so even a phone call would probably be fine-although, I’ll warn you it is difficult to diagnose these things without seeing them. If you have a trusted pair of hands that I can guide over the phone or a video call, that’s ideal, but we can figure something out in any case.
Just let me say I loved reading your comment! Can relate to much of it. Thanks for the laughs!
I have spent a lot at Kyles already!
They are where my journey began, definitely knowledgeable. I hope you're having luck with your system. They're really neat! Thanks for watching :)
Bought my first house 3 years ago which is outfitted with (based on the switches) a Remcon system. I know absolutely nothing about it, nor was I given any information verbal or otherwise upon purchase. The house also runs off-peak power, whatever that means. The original builder/owner up until my coming owned an electrical contracting company and was very fond of his work. The electrical in the house seems somewhat of a flex, showing his ability. Unfortunately he had passed and his heir was of no help explaining anything. I had to replace a few transformers in the ceiling upon moving in, being the furthest I've dove into it. There are many features including some switches I still have no clue what they do. I have two 9-switch panels, one in the master bedroom and another in the garage. I know what a few do and accidentally touched the larger main one once at night. Turning on I believe every single light in the house associated with a loud beep. Which quite honestly concussed and scared the hell out of me and I never touched it again. As little as I understand this system, moving away seems like a better idea. Though I found this video in search of seemingly scarce information about the system. In hopes of understanding what is possible with it or how to ditch it the easy way. Every electrician I talk to knows better than to touch the system at all or knows absolutely nothing and again refuses to touch the system. Both hilarious and sad.
Oh boy. It sounds like you've got quite a challenge animal on your hands. It can be a gift to some and a curse to others. I do hope you have some fortune in finding an electrician in your area that can assist. It sounds like you may have a larger system that requires numerous transformers due to the distance or quantity of relays. It is possible that the "beep" you are hearing is actually a relay or other coil shorting on actuation. I've not seen a master switch that activates all of the lights at once due to the sudden drain on the system that could damage components; Although, there were a lot of bad decisions made in the history of these. I may do a video on some troubleshooting that may help you, but it could be a few weeks before it is released--I'm working against a back log and work has been a little hectic. Hopefully, I can get a contact page set up for situations like this that I can create targeted videos that could come in handy for more people. Thanks for watching!
@@smartercircuits
Did you ever create that contact page? Would love to ask a few questions about updating my old GE momentary relay system.
@@inaxsesable I have not... terribly behind on that front, but feel free to email me at SmarterCircuits at gmail.
My brain flamed at 24:11. But it was not because of a lack of interest. I grew up in areas where flourishes like this were what people tried to act blasé about but secretly coveting each quirky twitch like a Citroën or Jaguar: so modern, so continental! Why understanding a quirky system at best, most yanked out or painted over, is important, I can't say other than it fascinates me as well. This is worth a couple of pots of coffee at a diner I know that is 24/7. I'd love to give me two cents worth about some of the most innovative yet perfectly silly passel of ides for tomorrow's home today. And yes, they were marketing these homes within 5 miles of active natural gas pumping. Southern California was one of a most abundant source of natural gas at that time.
I am trying to understand low voltage DC power and how to take advantage of whatever sources of power that I can work with now and in the future.
For instance, I have concerned that instant hot water systems have settled down in technology and competitive pricing. There is no reason why what I set up today would not be the same system I would want to modify in ten years or so for such changes. I have always found that history either provides answers or context for today.
Great show!
Certainly glad you enjoyed the video insofar as you could! The eccentricities of those who could afford to have eccentricities are always interesting, whether practical or otherwise. I think this one can be in the right circumstances, but it really boils down to whether or not the person designing them is doing so for comfort, convenience, or just to keep up with the Jones'. On that note, I'm of the firm opinion that no one should put themselves through owning a Citroën--no matter how many unconventional places they can find to place a door handle (although, they did some very cool stuff with suspensions back in the day).
The biggest reasons the low-voltage fad could actually be a practical benefit to the homeowner or end-user are the safety, ability to have as many switches as you like without the need for a traveler wire or special three-way switch, less heavy-gauge wire use, and when done properly, the ease of maintenance. If the connections were a bit more modern, these systems would make isolating the higher currents in any given household or shop application very simple.
On the topic of the DC power itself, there are a number of things we use that require switching power supplies and such where if we standardized more of these devices' power requirements (and connections), we could have DC power supplies as standard and a distribution of ports for those supplies as part of a home's default infrastructure. We're halfway there, but the companies don't like making their parts work with other companies'--even though that's more or less what solidified PC as the dominant computer in the market.
Our small electronics usually take 5v thanks to being built to be USB compatible and many of our other devices use 12v or 19v (laptops... they could do better). Since I have two 24 V transformers (one for the switch system, one for the doorbell), I can easily use my existing switch system wiring infrastructure and install rectifiers and buck converters to get any DC voltage I need nearly anywhere in the house. This allows all kinds of other tricks, but I'm already rattling on, so I'll close saying many of these technologies would be much better if companies weren't constantly trying to force loyalty through proprietary hardware. Trendy tech will always be a byproduct of bored folks with money to spare. Occasionally, it gives us something useful.
Lastly, I don't know if you're the Discord sort, but the channel has a Discord server where we talk about this kind of thing (among other more social conversations and random). If you do use Discord, feel free to drop in!
discord.gg/HZWjv3VZw8
This is fantastic. I've been in my house almost 4 years. So far I haven't had to do anything with my relays but I am in the process of swapping out all of my old switches with new ones from Kyle switch plates (Despard) which was a life saver. 16 singles, 7 triples and doubles. I had a master control panel in my bedroom that would shut off all the lights downstairs with a single push. It did like a round robin across the relays. For now I've just taken the old ugly controller out but would love to modernize it. The switches in my office appear to be tied into the outlets but the outlets are always hot. The wiring looks right in the outlet for the switch to control it. I can hear the relay click on the switch. Could this be a relay issue? Looking forward to checking out the other videos!
Love hearing about other folks' experiences. Could be a relay, bit could also be on a separate leg. They tended to use a single outlet when no overhead light was present and the rest wired as you would expect a modern system to be wired. I wish you the best of luck. They're unique systems, but they'll improve your quality of life if you take care of them.
I want Jane Jetson’s morning routine machine ... how far out do you suppose that is? 😄
There's a Gadget Man episode that sort of covers that. Season 2 Episode 2 - Rise and Shine.
Love the video. My house was built in 1954 it has a touch plate low voltage system. I’ve recently uploaded all the switches in the kitchen and hallway. One issue I am having is the outside light will not go on. Once in a while it will go on when I touch the switch. I hear the relay clicking so I’m not sure what the issue is. I have another light that gets stuck in the on off off position for extended periods of time. For the most part all of the other switches work. Love you hear what you think the issue is.
My first inclination is a sticking solenoid relay. The plunger inside the device that pushes and pulls the snap device in the oddly shaped base of the relay can start to dry out (the grease) or the coils can start to fuse together and lose their efficiency. Eventually, the relay will stick in an open or closed state permanently. This isn't really as awful as most people think--even though the replacement relay can run upwards of $90--especially considering I usually see these relays hit ages of 25+ years before this happens. Often, these bad relays will buzz loudly when you try to energize them. Replacing them is easy if they're easy to get to in the first place, just pay close attention to the orientation of the relay and the way it is presently wired. Of course, there is always the smart relay route, but this is only as necessary as YOU feel it is. I wish you the best of luck! If you're a Discord user, feel free to join the channel Discord (discord.gg/5TXP65N7Hf) and upload pictures or ask questions and I'll try to help as best I can. Definitely check out Kyle's Switchplates--they're pretty useful for owners of these systems (I am not paid to say that--though, that'd be nice--they are honest to goodness the best source of info and parts that I've found online).
Thanks for the video. Is there any information about upgrading to a smart system with the remcon system already installed? The problem I'm having is that my relays are located at each individual device and not in a control panel, Most relay systems I see are to be mounted in a control box. Looking forward to your future videos.
It is possible to install Shelly 1 and 2 pm relay modules at the fixture. They're very small in profile and I've had to install a few at the location of the fixture itself as well. They even sell relay modules now requiring no neutral wire so they can be installed in modern wiring switch locations that only have access to the hot wire. The thing to remember when you do this is that you either upgrade your smaller gauge switch wires or install a helper relay to actuate the switch terminals on the Shelly and controlling that relay with the low-voltage switches--which is what I've done with all of my switches anyway as a safety precaution. You can see an overview of this approach here:
czcams.com/video/ilP0fUHriWQ/video.html
@@smartercircuits Thank you very much. Think I'm going to give it a try.
great voice!
Thanks! I appreciate that, though I didn't do a whole lot to get it (I'll pass the compliment on to the factory).
Wow, I was mesmerized listening to your video with your humor and enormous in-between-the-lines knowledge. The reason I came upon this in the first place is because my son moved into a house built about 6-7 years ago, that has low voltage lights, may be LED, lighting the stairs. They turn on and shut off at random times, he thinks. I looked for power supplies but can’t find anything so far in obvious places. I’ll have to dedicate more time and energy to figure this out. Any ideas?
This sounds like it may be a different system than the 1950's version, but you may be on the right track to investigate the power supply. If it is controlled by a solenoid relay, it could be sticking, but this sounds more like interference in the control line of a smaller control circuit. Some interfaces for lighting controls that are newer can be susceptible to minor fluctuations in EM around the control wires if they are too long. This would be easy to narrow down if it happened more frequently during thunderstorms. Another possibility is that the bulbs/LEDs are not compatible with the control system or ballast--if there is one.
@@smartercircuits thanks for the quick reply. The intriguing part was that I couldn't easily find the power source to these lights. I'll have to look deeper and start opening switch plates and HVAC grills and any other possible hiding place. I'm hoping they weren't sealed inside some wall.
As a young electrician I've never heard of this systen before until I got called to a kitchen reno. I noticed the weird switches and removed one to find the low voltage wiring. The whole house lighting was wired this way. Unfortunately, dimmers are a hot commodity with pendant lights, potlights, pretty much all lighting. Which makes this system useless as it can't be dimmed by are everyday dimmers. Other then rewiring. Is there another option for this to achieve dimming controlled lights with this system?
First, thanks for watching the vid! I love talking to professionals that have run across these systems. There are some products that offer remote dimming options, just have to be careful of the bulb you use at that point because most of them seem to use PWM to "dim", but I may do a video on some various dimming options in the not-too-distant future. I plan to pick up a few devices and set up an isolated circuit for testing as well as a higher frame rate camera so I can show the PWM in action for those devices that use it.
@@smartercircuits This video ever happen? Scouring internet for dimmer options that might be compatible with my Bryant low voltage system but it's crickets...
1 DIN horsepower is circa 735.5 Watt.
Please refer to the chart on the following website. This is not a direct conversion of power, it is a rating for a motor control relay based on motor power. In the table for single-phase motor, the 115V FLA rating is 9.8A.
www.loadhook.com/amp-draw-based-on-horsepower/
I was happy to find your video however readily admitting I did not understand most of it. The problem I have is that in updating my kitchen the installers of the my new countertop hit one of the off and on switches. I can still turn the light off and on but the button is a bit amiss and I would like to change to white ones. I connected Kyle prior to seeing your video but customer service was anything BUT helpful. I could never talked to a live person as all information need to be done via email. That sent me several links, but can't tell what type it is since it not labeled and I don't know what I actually need. If I look at the pictures on the website I guess they are Bryant. Can you tell me what from the Kyle website what I need to replace the off and on buttons? I sent one electrician the link to Kyle (as he did not know about this system) along with pictures. He told me the parts to fix would be $100 and the labor requiring 2 guys would be $290 an hour. Thank you so much.
I feel like I'm saying this a lot lately, but I am so sorry for not seeing this comment sooner--I've been distracted and only checking the comments on the channel every few days. The nice thing about these systems is that there's very little difference in the switches that control them. As long as they are not lighted, you can mostly interchange them as long as you use a momentary switch (one that does not toggle into a position and stay). Choosing based on what you like and what looks closest to what you have is pretty safe. Your electrician should be able to make any terminal adapting needed if the blade connectors on the back are a slightly different size, but if you know someone who is handy with even the smallest electronics project, they would be able to figure it out quickly as well. On the topic of pricing, it sounds like he may have quoted a new relay in addition to the switch, I would check this. If the light still operates, but the switch is only slightly damaged, I would say the relay is probably fine and this shouldn't really cost any more than $50 at most--not including labor, which is really a convenience fee for the little amount of work actually needed. I hope this helps.
One more thing to note for anyone moding their switches (Give this info to whoever works on your system if you don't); there is always one contact for on and one for off necessary per lighting circuit in addition to a single or double hot wire coming from the transformer. This means you can use any single-pole double-throw momentary switch if you can mount and adapt it, just make sure it is rated for 24 VDC. You can also create the same with two single-pole single throws, one for on and one for off, you just need to branch the hot wire. In systems that use four wires because the switch is a double-pole double-throw, chances are high that the hot for both is coming from the same place, if you have more than one transformer, double-check that disconnecting one of them disables both hot wires--if you have one transformer, there's no where else the hot could be coming from, so they are the same wire essentially (but twice the resistance together, not really important here). If they do both run to the same transformer, you can treat them as the same hot if you want to use a single-pole double-throw by combining them before or at the connection or simply omitting one of them (be sure to cap and insulate that wire if it remains live).
My wife and I are renting a home with low voltage lighting. Earlier today we had a series of the switches stop working. 1 Some of the lots are stuck in the on position while some are stuck turned off Some of the lots are stuck in the on position while some are stuck turned off. It's as if the voltage supplying signal to all of these switches has completely stopped. Any suggestions?
It sounds like the coils could be failing to pull/push the snap device into the on or off position on these relays, which would simply require replacing them with similar or newer relays. Given that you had multiple fail simultaneously, I would check circuit breakers first (which I'm sure you've done), then test your transformers. If you're not sure how to test the transformer, it might be a good idea to get some help from an electrician as these can be dangerous to service without knowing how they can be dangerous and under what conditions they are safe to probe. My apologies for the late reply, I've been juggling quite a few things recently. If you haven't already found the issue in the few days since you posted, I would definitely push the property owner to look into this since it could create potentially hazardous conditions, or at least get very expensive if not addressed quickly. Sorry I couldn't be of more assistance than this, but without being there or seeing the system, it's difficult to give any advice and I would hate to send you down the wrong path.
@@smartercircuits yes I believe it is the transformer. I found one in the basement, it's a GE Rt1 40v. I tried replacing it with a 24v one with no avail. The original had three lines hooked up to it (three low voltage 2 wires, red and white). When I check for polarity on the lines, 2 don't ring, but one does. Would that be an indication that 2 are good and one is bad or vice versa? Thanks for any information you can give me as info on this stuff os super limited as you onow
I'm looking to upgrade my 50's GE low voltage switching system also. Will the 3 wire switches need to be replaced with the 2 wire for the Shelly 1 to replace the relay? I don't see a way around it. Thank you for the video.
Generally, you have five wires total coming from the relay (I apologize if any of this you already know, I'm just covering all bases). The thicker wires coming from the squarish part of the relay should connect to a line from the mains box and the other will continue on to your fixtures. On the cylindrical part, you'll have three wires; a neutral and two hots--one for opening the circuit and one for closing the circuit. The switch at the wall will have the same corresponding wires. You can still install a Shelly--or other relay--in line here and use either or both of the hots in order to toggle the relay with the appropriate configuration, or use the existing wires and replace the double-throw momentary in the wall with a single pole momentary to be a little more "honest" about its function. If you're unsure of any of these things, I would highly recommend having an electrician give you a hand. You can explain what you'd like to do, and they should be able to help you do it the safest way--although, this is almost certainly not the cheapest route, sometimes it's better to spend the money to have the peace of mind of safety. I hope I've been clear enough to help you logic out the wiring or determine an approach that suits your needs. I'll try to put together a little more diagrammed information later tonight and I'll post it in this thread. I love that more owners of these systems are appearing and I'd love to help because almost everyone in my neighborhood has had some kind of trouble with these systems--not because they're bad systems, just older and we know more now than we did then. No reason we can't resurrect the idea or even build better systems from the groundwork already in place.
A point of clarification: When I say "use both hots" I mean using both the "on" and "off" hot wires on the hot side of the switch terminals on the relay and the neutral as a neutral or ground (if you're using DC to power a latching relay). So, both directions on the two-way (double throw) momentary switch would act as a single momentary press and toggle the light on or off regardless of direction. If this is weird to you, you can instead just install a single momentary button and use the wires of your choosing (so long as you're absolutely sure where they go to the relay terminals). Another thing to mention here is that the Shelly relays can be AC for both control and load or DC for both control and load, but you cannot--so far as I know--use a hybrid of DC to control an AC circuit. There are other products that allow this, and if this is of interest to you, I recommend checking out Allied Electronics Contactors. Another strange but effective method would be to use DC through the wall switched to power a secondary non-latching solid state relay that would control the AC control side of the Shelly relay. This seems redundant--and it is--but it's not uncommon in the industrial/commercial world to use this technique for overcurrent protection on the control side of a heavy contactor.
Ok, finally got around to uploading a couple quick drawings of what I mean, I hope these are legible and make sense:
Original Wiring:
drive.google.com/file/d/1CRZolom311N4xwiSH8sDtNJmbEdvSo4a/view?usp=sharing
Possible Rewire with existing SPDT momentary switch:
drive.google.com/file/d/1CLA04PswW5IE_KbTtOfmEhNeeJTrqcgM/view?usp=sharing
Thanks for viewing and may you have the best of luck with your conversion!
Dude. Please come fix my house. Name your price
I'd be happy to help, as time allows. You can reach me via Discord, on the smartercircuits.com site, or you can email me at smartercircuits@gmail.com. I may be a little slow to respond, but I try to get back to people as quickly as I can. If you could send pics of your relays, that'll start the ball rolling quicker. It may be something easy, you never know.
As an electrician having to run any light all the way back to a central control panel and then again now having to wire to same a LV switch wire far outweighs what ever convenience this author suggest these systems had. when I encounter them, I remove them and these folks homes are now ever so simple to operate and maintain.This was tech for techs sake in the 1950's with no actual user benefit.
See my reply on the other video.