Why is it important to understand top dead center vs. overlap on a 4-stroke?
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- čas přidán 31. 08. 2016
- One of the most misunderstood areas when working on 4-stroke engines is the placement of the piston for inspection and assembly procedures. Check out this video for close-up photos and in-depth explanation of the two positions. For some reason, I find many entry level techs all too often “choose” the overlap position when setting TDC. They soon learn that this just simply requires re-work.
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Wish I had a teacher like you in school, I would have gone into this field or at least attempted it. Keep teaching the youth of tomorrow, because many of them don’t realize that all things need “service” and my generation was taught that manual labor was not the “proper” way to go. Sorry I listened. Either way, great videos 👍
Good video, got to pick the correct TDC. On small engines I use my finger to feel the pressure build, on large engines where I can't reach the hole and turn the crank at the same time I use a gutted plug with a whistle fitted to it, works well to be sure you're on compression stroke. Already subscribed and hit the bell, don't want to miss any of your excellent work. Love that you stress attention to detail and professionalism. That's how I was taught 40 years ago and it makes me happy to see someone still believes in performing work with integrity and teaching the importance of same. Keep up the good work!
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Mate, absolutely awesome, very easy to understand with the cutaway engine. The explanation with the intake valve opening and closing with the next revolution always being at TDC in invaluable. Cheers mate, great video. 👍👍
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Great video, was having trouble finding tdc on my ktm. Now I thoroughly understand what I'm doing. Thanks for the knowledge
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Great video that explains all the missing clues about Valve Adjustment. Because of the mistake that can be made surrounding TDC and Overlap :).
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This was really interesting to watch. Great video!
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Thank you, I appreciate your response and education...great video
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Thanks for the video ! Made finding TDC easy for Me !
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Excellent visual aid demonstration.👍
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Very cool video. I remember when I was 13 setting the valves on a Honda 200x I thought I was at tdc compression but was actually at the overlap period of the cycle. Needless to say I never made that mistake again! But your right it isnt mentioned enough and too often taked for granted.
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@LaneAWD_OwO didnt end up with any damage it just wouldn't start. It would backfire like crazy and i almost broke my ankle. Once i set the correct valve clearance while on the compression stoke et all good.
your video definitely helped me i thought tdc was after the exhaust stroke still learning
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I thought the same pal. Isn't it though ? BDC exhaust valve open with inlet closed followed by TDC inlet open and exhaust closed ?
Awesome video well explained and with the engine displaying its function it was easy to understand
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I like your cutout model and your clear demo. On a car engine with rocker covers off it's pretty easy to identify the end of the exhaust cycle because both rocker arms are moving. That happens nowhere else in the sequence, and you don't need to be sure which rocker is exhaust and which is intake. On a typical car the cylinders are often paired, so when you identify one cylinder at the end of exhaust phase, the other of the pair will be at TDC. If there is no clear cylinder pairing, you just rotate 360 deg more to get TDC on that cylinder.
spelunkerd Thank you bud!
For those of you that are confused when cyl 6 is in over lap meaning when exhaust valve is starting to close and intake is beginning to open cyl 1 will be at tdc
Very great video. As an ex mechanic here in Australia myself not once I have been taught this. Thanks mate and G’day from Australia.
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I just went through this with my sons atv, it needed the valves adjusted, had 2 different people do them and both times it was ting tinging. I finally wrapped my headed around what was going on and did it myself. I’ve been a 2 stroke my whole life.
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Shane Instructor is the perfect name for a teacher
Thanks friend...:)
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Cool visuals! Thanks
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Love the perfect placement of the bright red cart in the back to match the exhaust port diagram in red. :-}
Well lookie there...better eye than mine...
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really appreciate this video thank you.
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What an education! I always assumed that both valves would be fully closed every time the piston goes to TDC.
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Very helpful! Thanks!
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this video saved me. i had released the cam chain tensioner while what i thought was tdc. video helped me regain my timing properly thanks so much. intake compression power exhaust!
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Or, , ,suck, squeeze, bang blow !
@79banditos3: If you can't figure out which TDC to use when taking a cam chain tensioner out, maybe you shouldn't be doing anything more complicated than swapping spark plugs.
@@postulator890 gotta learn somewhere. Why don’t you keep your comments to yourself douche
This information is gold!!!!!
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damn this was so so helpful! cant wait to try this in the morning.
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Fantastic video. Thanks.
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Wish I had a teacher like this as well, shop class was play time and we learned nothing but a oil change and clean parts in a hot vat
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Thanks for sharing this
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What an amazing tool to visualize the full cycle and TDC! So I’m trying to decipher if when you are at TDC on compression stroke, should the timing gear marks/dots be lined up/facing each other and the distributor be pointing to cylinder 1? I’m in the middle of replacing my gears and chain on my 4.2 l on my 89 YJ. I had replaced the old distributor a while back with and HEI system and wonder if we put it in 180 when we did it. Is that possible, would it even run? Right now when I have the timing gear marks lined up facing each other, at what I think is TDC compression stroke, the distributor is pointing 180 away from cylinder 1 (don’t remember what cylinder it is). I would love to see all four of the components tied together, TDC/compression stroke, timing gear marks,and distributor angle, that would be awesome. Hope you still check this video and reply to questions.😊
Do you have any video about camshaft timing?
Brilliant this explains why some engines get set up 180 degrees out!
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Great explanantion that other videos try to explain but not as well or incorrectly
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Hey Shane, Happy New Year, I have to agree with the prior statement. Can you get a motor back in time with just taking the tension off and holding the flywheel with a socket wrench and being extra careful not to drop the chain and rotate the cam until the "T" is accomplished???
Hi Paul. No. If you could move a tooth just by loosening the cam chain tension, the chain is super stretched and worn. The tensioner does not have that much "adjustment".
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Appricate the video, I have to keep skip back 10 second to see total revaluation, been noce to see you do the cycle a few times with no interruptions, I'm very visual, not great with books, but great video, I'm still not sure what we need to do about the over lap and would like to understand it better, thanks
Glad it was helpful! We have many videos here on the channel with use of our cutaways too. Over 700 free video here! Did you know you can ask these questions in our live q/a sessions as a channel member? We also are starting in deep training courses too...
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Great video. Thank you
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Hello, great video. I find all your videos very helpful as a self taught do it yourselfer. My question is...I'm working on a 96 Suzuki dr200se and am trying to install my camshaft. But at TDC with all marks alinged I can't get the cam sprocket to seat on the retention pin. Any advice. Thanks
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thank thank thank you! after setting my valves and having horrible valve tapping I knew i had done something wrong. I was at TDC but on exhaust stroke and that totally messed up my adjustment. I had a feeling it being a 4 stroke engine the valves would not be closed every time the piston is at the top and this video confirmed my thoughts. Now my engine runs happy with just a little ticking ( i think that is normal yes?) anyway thank you!
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Brilliant mate; from the Outer Hebrides.
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in pushrod type, I check if it rotates whenever I look for TDC.
Right on friend...Have you seen all our HD videos? Not they they are the only pushrod engine...LOL
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Funny how I stumbled across this,,,, Ive been a Master Tech for 20 yrs and specialize on Mercedes/BMW and Chevy,,, I'm a hotrodder also,, I guess you can get too comfortable in what your use to dealing with,,, While installing a 383 smc strker,,, Not only did I do the 180 on dist but also crossed wired it knowing the firing order of chevy's,,,, guess just had that one a-comin, lol
I badly need to have speciality in Mercedes Benz, BMW,Range Rovers & Jaguars. Can u be of help.
Really enjoyed it...
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What if you take the rocker arm covers off and take out the push rods without finding tdc? I did that because I am changing all the chrome covers to black. I thought I could just find it before reassembling? What do I need to do now?
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Appreciate the video. As long as my valves are closed on that cam and I'm on the cam circle and have timing marked. I can shim and install new cam? My manual states make sure tdc is correct which I have. Than rotate till front cylinder cams are at the two and 10 position to perform shim maintenance. So I'm guessing it's the same for swapping the cam?
Replacement cams are the same procedure as the stock cam in the manual. You use the same marks and instructions. The cam just opens and closes different for the performance upgrade. Best to READ any instructions with the cam and if none, contact their customer support for any required "inspections". I say this as many aftermarket cams are "bolt in" but at some point they require a "squish inspection".
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I've learned this the hard way.
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good video really understood. what the difference. is.
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Is the valve overlap the reason of backfiring of the cars on LPG?
Well explained 👍🍺
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Hi thanks for the great video, But I have done everything as per video explained, and Bike won't start, 1977 Yamaha TT500 , I set contact points just before power stroke as indicated in the manual off the F mark on the flywheel, it has strong spark also, and rechecked valve gap and timing on the T mark on the flywheel on TDC just after intake valve had shut Fully. All adjustments were done then !! While both valve covers off I felt play in both valve rockers ? The Bike has plenty of compression as it is really hard to kick over on the compression stroke. I pulled the carb off and poured some fuel into the intake port but She still won't start. Any ideas ?
Did you ever figure out why it wouldn’t start?
Question, when cutting out push rods on a 2004 RK, should the piston that you are removing the push rods from be in n the compression stroke and the piston be on TDC?
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Always look for de butterfly positsion of the cam lobs.😊
Hi Rien...Shane said to remember on V-twins and V-fours the rear cylinders are (I think he said always but to be safe...most) always reversed and face each other!
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Are all the valve stems sealed when engine is off? I was removed my throttle body in order to install a idle adjuster cable and couldn't help but notice, that all valves stems were sealed except for cylinder number 2. My bike has always had a stutter and I was wondering if I might have stuck valves..
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I have a 2.5 L4 Dodge sport and I'm scared I may have not hit top dead center. The cylinders off, but when I put it back on how can I fix it or check if it's right?
I have v6 dodge do both engine head vaules have to be closed for top dead center? Your video made me rethink.
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Looks like they only respond to questions with automated useless crap.
Good video
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Good info. Im such an amateur... Willing to learn but still quite clueless. I bought a chinese engine for a pitbike. Its a lifan 4 stroke... It didnt even come with any paperwork from the manufacturer. Only 2 sheets from the seller which says i should check the valve clearances. Im only just learning what that means
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my crankshaft pully has grad. marks an tdc stapped in it a timming light will tell where it firing exactly if need to correct just turn dist. slowly the tighten i set mine at 4 deg, before tdc
Thanks man I forgot about over lap.
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i miss college automotive courses and teachers like this one who know their stuff and know how to teach it so folks get it and are able to utilize the info in a bind . this is great knowledge to score on girls to. your the man when you repair what 10 other guys couldnt figure out .
@@mr.russerzplace...1448 🙏 👏😁🏁 Right on
Nice video,!! Is there anyway to check my compression without the compression testing tools??
Great question! We actually have a tool on its way to review for just that. The company is bringing it to the market in the US. Its a hit in Europe. Stay tuned!
@@How2Wrench Shane,how r u brother? Hope u r safe in this Covid lockdown. My simple question is:if I rebuilt an engine and I am preparing to start up the engine, should the engine be at TDC intake or Compression? Eric,Kampala.
@@wodeyaeric5351 compression stroke is when it fires at tdc
If the cam time is set correctly, will the motor reach its capacity?
Hi Shane. Forgot to ask. Is it doing damage or putting the timing out if I turn the flywheel backwards please ? G
Depends if the chain is attached and you hit the valves on the piston. Best to ask Shane though. I’ve seen this question asked before.
I got a fairly new carbureted 250cc dirt bike I have a question riding the bike for a little bit and I wondered if the valves were a little too tight so I loosened the intake valve just a smitch because there was Zero play there any movement at top dead center I loosened it less than a quarter of a turn tightened it down made sure everything was top dead center I didn't have a gapping tool bought by hand felt normal now would that have anything to do with running hot cherry head pipe
Hello can you give me some advice please. my bike Yamaha YZ450F threw the oil out from (PIPE BREATHER), I put a new cylinder, pistons and rings and i drive 1 km but it blows out the oil again. I will be grateful if you give me some advice
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So this is only really to measure valve clearance correctly? It wont affect bikes that spark every cycle, will it? Coming from a dirt bike perspective... are there any bikes cars that only spark on the compression stroke?
Most any modern combustion engine with stick coil are a single spark on compression. Have you Subscribed yet to never miss a video? Have you seen the video playlists czcams.com/users/conleybuiltplaylists ? Quick answers are often found here. No time to look through videos?
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I have a v6 3.0 vze with 2 cams and the timing belt seems to have slipped. the crankshaft goes to TDC (piston 1)and so does the Drivers side cam but the passenger cam hops right past TDC by 9 teeth. What happened? Do I need to crack the plugs to get it to TDC on that side?
“Intake valve is opening, piston is going down”. So on it’s way back up is top dead center compression? Would be almost certain. Because that’s the second cycle you said First ”intake” Second “compression” Third “power” Fourth “exhaust”. Also when it is on tdc compression. You would make valve adjustments?
Hi Nick. Do just as shown in the video and you're golden!
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I have a question maybe you can help with. Ok I've just assembled my cylinder head with new valve stem seals and torqued down my BMW X1 N20 4 cylinder engine to the proper torque on both cams. Well I noticed on my exhaust cam where a couple of the exhaust valves are slightly opened after assembly. Is this normal?
Can you check valve lash when cam is facing upwards and inward instead of outward? Basically as long as the valve is closed? Thanks just curious
I think I've seen Shane answer that one before as "yes" but the there is a risk". I don''t know what risk was though. We are just the social media team.
That’s a great question for Shane directly! Shane has a solution for you. As far as the question, Shane does answer questions when he get's back around to non members eventually so hang tight, FYI >>>> he does member ones daily!
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i have a 140 stomp pit bike and if it ant timed up right would it course it to run bad like it ticks over fine but when you rev it it bogs and engine gets hot very quick like with in a min or two but when u put the t for time at the mark its ment to be at it hits the valve so iv had to put the timing in a spot that i think its in it starts fine but dont run fine and its on the exhust stroke any help please on how to solve this
to find compression stroke on a Harley Davidson just pull out spark plugs and look into front cylinder for the intake valve coming down and then when it starts to go up to close as you turn the rear wheel CCW on a stand look at the window for the timing mark to come around and look in the service book for a pic of what it may look like not all Harleys have the same marking...
I'm the intern studying under Shane. I grabbed Shane quick and he said right on EXCEPT he wanted to point out a diffenent way he explains it to prevent human error.
You said turn the wheel CCW (Counter-clockwise) but Shane said to be mindful that depends on if you are standing on the left side of the motorcycle then yes, if on the right its clockwise, right? So he simply says "rotate the wheel in forward direction". He's had students either "helping" or left handed...lol He actually did video on a Harley Shovelhead but they used to kicker. Good video showing the valve through the spark plug hole. Here it is: czcams.com/video/zlJfbGgYLoI/video.html
I'm going to watch this video right now and learn what he said as to why! One of these days I hope to move from the office to the shop!
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I have an issue. How to you find TDC if the harmonic balancer has been replaced and it doesn't have a mark on it? There's no mark on the harmonic balancer in order to align with the indicator on the engine. What's the simplest way to get it to TDC? The vehicle is a 2006 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited 4.0 engine
What's the best way to tell if you're at top dead center on the compression stroke if the cams are already out I've got a 2017 yfz450r I'm redoing the top end for the first time by reading the service manual. My new cams will be in this week and I'm going to try to get it all back together
We grabbed Shane from the shop (we are just the media team) Shane said to give you a quick free be lesson here. (please join) He said " If the cams are out TDC is always just that. Its when you install the cams and time them, that the overlap cycle in part of the 4-stroke. Just follow your manual on the marks and install procedure and you will not go wrong" Shane
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Sir can you tell on which strock the valve clearance should be made...
Per Shane...."Compression and some motors need to be set just past per the manual". Hit the subscribe button
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I have a 84 Yamaha dx225 that I was doing the valve clearances on in the spec it says on Inake .005 .009 and on exhaust .11 .15
Itseems that s a large gapon exhaust valves but I did that I took the top timing gear off with out placing it at tdcwith the bottom when igo6 done with the valves I went tdc mark on bottom rotated the cam with the gear no chain then put the timing chain back on buttoned everything up one pull start later I've got a fire that almost burned down my house is this due to intake leaks or exhaust leaks fuel air mix being rich exhaust valve not opening not correctly timed or what it costed me my fueltank but the bikes wiring survived the firewe got it out in time but how do I fix this
So I'm supposed to adjust my valves at proper tdc which would be the compression stroke and once the piston gets to the very top then I should be good to adjust the valves? However my valves are moving no matter what stroke im on and no matter how many full revolutions I turn after getting piston to tdc. 1986 Honda XL600R
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Dont the timing marks on the magneto keep you from messing this up?
Thanks for commenting and adding value to our community! The answer is no. watch the video again and think about how there are only one set of marks for the piston to need 720 degrees of rotation for the 4-cycle process and it will be in tdc twice.
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If you were to try to start the motor when it's on exhaust stroke (not compression stroke because cams are 180 degrees off on a V6), what would happen essentially? Any damage to pistons?
I don't know on a single cam v6 as I think you are talking about. My guess is possible as you may have a cylinder trying to open valves when they shouldn't be. I could look into it if needed.
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Mike I am not at par with u people. Assuming we have just rebuilt a diesel engine,time the diesel pump ready to pump fuel for ignition ,at what TDC r we--Intake or Compression for the engine to start after being rebuilt?
@@wodeyaeric5351 compression only place it will run
I have a dirtbike and I am having issues starting it head was sent to machine shop and cylinder so everything is precise. I have assembled it and I have too much compression. I’m wondering if this can be issue. I can’t think of anything else. I have marks where they should be but if I turn fly wheel again and I find the line a second round the lives point down and the cams marks are not aligned with head. Is it this what you described?
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i just rebuilt my motor and didn’t know about this. i put every rocker arm on “tdc” and torqued them accordingly. would that cause cylinder 1 intake and exhaust valves not to work ?
That's a good question for Shane directly. You reached the social media team here. We get 300-400 requests a week, so it’s a bit time challenging as you can imagine.
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when installing the rockerboxes what is the best way to set the engine on B cirkel or Top Dead Center ??
Hope this message makes sense to you as a decent human being that also works for a living and gets it. I’m the intern studying under Shane and on the social media team.. He's in the shop working or training a class. I fInally made it to your comment going down the list...just an FYI...he literally logs in and answers member questions daily! He does an AM and PM check in to answer all member questions. Consider joining...best $1.99 you'll spend this month 😁
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Shane does try answer some non members questions when he get's some time so hang tight if joining is not an option for you.
One of these days I hope to move from the office to the shop! Wish I knew the answer but don't want to bs you. He couldn't screen these requests fast enough...
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thank you sir but how do I find a top dead center with a enclose engine like a sportster883?
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Hey mate how are you I just bought a crf250r 06 has been ridden and put away and won't start I've been told what's your theory
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Hello; would be really good to explain how to find lobe center (degreeing a camshaft) with that cutaway engine.
Nobody; and I mean nobody explained the technique right for an student or a rookie. Always says something like "put TDC; rotate engine the way it rotates; stop when the valve is open ...etc" Do not working regarding understanding
Thanks
For sure...Maybe we will make it as a member video!
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My honda odyssey broke a timing belt, i have crank and both cams on their timing marks, how do i know if im at TDC compression stroke? Or am i good long as all 3 are dead on?? Thanks😊
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Best to go through everything. So wait for the intake valve to open, then watch your timing marks, when they line up that SHOULD be TDC. Keep going, the exhaust should open next, then, once you've reached the timing mark again, BOTH values should be open.. you can rock it back and forth to see, thus overlap. Next comes intake again, keep rotating, once you've reached your timing marks again, you're at TDC.
Hi sir. Which way do you turn the flywheel?
That's a good question for Shane directly. You reached the social media team here. We get 300-400 requests a week, so it’s a bit time challenging as you can imagine.
Shane does try to answer some non-members' questions when he gets some time so hang tight if you’re not in a hurry.
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when that eng is running use a timming light to see exactly where it firing in relation to arrow twist dist. to slight errors retighten dist. simple
I know this was posted a while ago so I'm going on a long shot here...
I ripped apart my top end, changed out the piston and rings, but before I tossed the cylinder back on, I found TDC, was this too soon to find TDC? I'm now confused and don't know what stroke I was in when I ripped it apart... please help!!
There should be a marking on both the magneto and timing gear in the cylinder head.Align those marks and you're good to go...
@@syafiqaiman3548 thnx bud! I found the mark for the set screw, but wasn't sure if it had to be in the proper stroke. Anyways.. figured it all out, got it going.
Thank you
What effect does the size of shims have on this?
On what specifically? Shim size has no effect on TDCC or overlap as these events happen 360 degrees of engine rotation apart.
If it was a quick answer I’d try to respond here but I wouldn’t want to lead you wrong assuming certain factors. Reach out to me on my website contact page. We have been overwhelmed with ungrateful people and scammers so I had to do something for my sanity by screening the over 300 requests a week!
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So what if you did a rebuild and new timing chain and the crank has got turned a bunch to (making sure everything was moving smoothly and waiting for parts) but just can’t seem to get it right first time it was sucking in the exhaust weird second time lapped valves better and would only run on the gas I put down the plug hole third time was really sucking through the carburetor but wouldn’t even run with gas down the plug hole and every time the valves had a different clearance but cdi doesn’t know tdc from overlap friggn so weird but I’ve been in this engine a lot and this is a first
Let me try and see I can catch Shane to answer quick. He is currently at an extended stay in Japan training students this winter. We are just the social media team.
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So say you put an engine back together and it has overlap. Will it blow the rings out at high RPM? What kind of damage can it do?
Hope this message makes sense to you as a decent human being that also works for a living and gets it. I’m the intern studying under Shane and on the social media team.. He's in the shop working or training a class. I fInally made it to your comment going down the list...just an FYI...he literally logs in and answers member questions daily! He does an AM and PM check in to answer all member questions. Consider joining...best $1.99 you'll spend this month 😁
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Shane does try answer some non members questions when he get's some time so hang tight if joining is not an option for you.
One of these days I hope to move from the office to the shop! Wish I knew the answer but don't want to bs you. He couldn't screen these requests fast enough...
If you need help sooner choose or more personal his 1:1 option is below!
He just returned from overseas training techs and his inbox is slammed with requests. He is scheduling time each day again to answer techline orders. He does not have the bandwidth to provide email replies as his schedule is full with shop customers, training schedules, and one on ones.
There's good news though! A deep dive one-on-one with him is an option. Use video, email and phone support.
Through the one-on-one service. Get Shane’s cell here: how2wrench.com/ols/products/techline-one-on-one
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why this perfect demo video get a 25 dislikes 😩
68 dislikes by the time I got to the video... But I'm assuming those are mostly ppl that were know it alls that were proven wrong....
LMAO....thank you James...
just rebuilding xt 225 yamaha i forgot to ,mark the keyed drive cogs , how do i fix it to the correct place so the timing for the valves is correct as its rotation needs to be real accurate or it collides
im assuming cog dots and top cog on line all together gives timing settings ,
Hi friend. Running down today’s list of comments! I try to answer when I've seen it before, but I don't recognize this one. I’m the Social Media Manager here. That’s a good question for Shane. He gets hundreds of requests a day and starts each day answering MEMBER or donation support questions first and then if there is time he will try to circle back before heading to the shop for customer work.
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I have a 99 GSX R750 and it pops and at crusing put a new tps and it's good but lose power wide open and then slowly picks up and runs fast what is going on here?
If it was a quick answer I’d try to respond here but I wouldn’t want to lead you wrong assuming certain factors. Reach out to me on my website contact page. We have been overwhelmed with ungrateful people and scammers so I had to do something for my sanity by screening the over 300 requests a week!
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Fortunately on my honda cb125f it's really obvious when you have free play or not.
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Hi from the U.K. Shane. The only other thing I would find useful from this video is a close up of the action between the lobes and valves. The stills were good but I think It would register with me more in slow motion. Mainly because I'm old with poor sight and slow on the uptake. Lol. I have an OHV/OHC 125 single bore Chinese bike. Poor compression and burning oil. Lapped the valves/seats and put a new piston and rings in. By the way I have the engine out of frame in house. Highest compression reading so far has been 91 but have lost that since moving sprocket around to try and improve the figure. No timing marks anywhere on the camshaft. There are two lines on the sprocket but don't know if they should be horizontal or vertical to the body. If I set the lobes upward at TDC so both valves are open will that take care of the overlap please ? Thanks. G
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I gotta find tdc on a 1984 bmw m10 4 cylinder. Hope I can do it correctly. This engine is a landmark for bmw
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how will the engine act if timed on the overlap stroke?
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Depends if system has waste fire or not... If it does have a waste fire system (fires every time at tdc or vicinity) it'll run. Cause it'll just do as normal operation and burn off remaining in burnt fuel.. but if it's not waste fire system (fire once per full cycle) you will have back fires and flames from exhaust and or intake but end result of not running. I know it's an old comments but sometimes it's easier for someone stumbling across older videos with similar questions