Does Shadowing Actually Work?
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- čas přidán 25. 06. 2024
- The shadowing technique... Some swear by it. Others think it's a waste of time. So what's my take? In this video, I share the basics of the method, where it comes from, whether I think it actually works, and if it can be used with my StoryLearning approach.
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📖 LEARN A LANGUAGE THROUGH THE POWER OF STORIES:
Shadowing can be a powerful technique, but it can be really boring if you use dry textbooks. Instead, try combining shadowing with engaging stories instead. My Uncovered courses are a great story-based beginner resource to get you started. 👉🏼 bit.ly/storylearningcourses
📚 RESOURCES MENTIONED:
StoryLearning Spanish Podcast:
iwillteachyoualanguage.com/bl...
How to learn a new language with stories:
• How To Learn a New Lan...
101 Conversations in Mexican Spanish: Short Natural Dialogues to Learn the Slang, Soul, & Style of Mexican Spanish:
iwillteachyoualanguage.com/mex101
How to develop TRUE spoken fluency in a foreign language:
• How to develop TRUE sp...
⏱ TIMESTAMPS:
00:00 - Intro
00:28 - What exactly is the “shadowing technique”? And how does it work?
04:05 - What are the supposed advantages of the shadowing technique?
06:20 - Does the shadowing technique actually work? Should you follow the method?
12:25 - Can shadowing be used with my StoryLearning® approach?
📺 VIDEO CLIPS USED:
Shadowing a foreign language (Chinese):
• Shadowing a foreign la...
Shadowing Step by Step:
• Shadowing Step by Step
Shadowing Discussed:
• Shadowing Discussed
English Speaking Practice | How to improve your English Speaking and Fluency: SHADOWING:
• English Speaking Pract...
How to speak in English? (Shadowing Technique Explained):
• How to speak in Englis...
Why Shadowing as a Beginner Is a Waste of Time:
• Video
Shadowing Technique:
• Shadowing Technique
So if shadowing is not the ideal path to good listening and speaking skills, what is? Check out my video 👉🏼 czcams.com/video/H2Q5moQWFHI/video.html
Gabe Wyrner has a pretty good system on Speaking. Intensive ear training is part of his method. I tend to trust an opera singer who must perform their languages in front of large audiences.
Olly, I purchased your new Short Stories in French for Intermediate audio book in Audible and realized that in the second story (La persévérance finit par payer - Chapter 2) the audio gets cut off way before the ending. (I know this because I also have the electronic book). Is there a way you can fix this? I'm a real fan of your stories and 101 conversation series.
Matt actually is pro shadowing.
He just thinks it's not for beginners.
And his shadowing method is a little bit different from "listen to audio, read short text and repeat".
@Olly Richards I already understand English, at a native speaker level even. I've always known the language but spoken another from childhood. I can speak English but i stumble more than i would like and also not entirely comfortable with the language yet. What exercise can i try for speaking muscle memory?
@@osas2kul Honestly, I think the obvious and straightforward answer is 'speak'. If you don't practice and do it as mtch as possible you're never gonna get it and get your mouth and brain used to it.
I'm sure you have native English friends, you can practise talking to them as much as possible via calls, audios etc. Also, listen a lot to native media.
Something that's helped me in pronunciation is watching mouth movements of native speakers. Like if you have a particular word/sound pronunciation you seem not to get right, especially if you've been corrected on it, watch videos, movies etc of how natives make that sound. Notice it and practice.
If that does not help, just check a youtube of how to make that particular sound and practice. Either one or both should help.
Also, you can check out how Matt vs Japan does his shadowing. It's quite different from the type of shadowing the guy is talking about (the one about listening to short scripted audio with a book in front walking up and down and repeating what's being said)
Hey Olly! I'm actually a pretty big proponent of shadowing. The clip of me you featured is from a video where I specifically explain why I don't think shadowing is effective for beginners. For intermediate and advanced learners, I think it's a great technique to build up muscle memory around the physical act of pronouncing a language. I actually have a video about my preferred shadowing setup, which makes it easier to hear your target language and your own voice at the same time!
we love you "scream like a fan girl" xD
@Matt vs. Japan I saw the episode you are referring to and I think it does more than improving pronunciation. Remember when you were talking about pitch accent? That is certainly one of the subtleties even that are even hard for an intermediate student. Also, you recommended in one of your videos to choose your subject (i.e. the person you listen to) carefully. Choose someone just about the same age and the same gender. Shadowing someone of opposite gender may end up making you sound weird to the native speakers. I heard one of the Korean polyglots claiming the Koreans knew something was off, just not exactly what, until he discovered his intonation was female. Asking that turned out to be why it was off. Furthermore, if I listen carefully to what you say about shadowing, it is actually a perfection after you already gained deep knowledge of the language. If you never do shadowing at all, but you are very advanced, you might be fine and maybe even near native. I am learning Finnish and until I have automatic understanding of Finnish, I will not go anyway near shadowing. Even then I will wait, until I don´t know how to improve more. I might never get around to shadowing and that would be ok, if I plateau at say "advanced 1". But if I do, shadowing is a powerfool tool to iron out the differences. I just hope I can find a podcast with someone my age (which won't be easy as the majority of podcasters are really young, like under 60). Thanks for your videos though.
Yes - muscle memory - very important. It's easy to get tongue tied.,
The first thing to learn from watching CZcams language learning videos is that what works depends on your level. How you learn vocabulary words 500-510 is much different than learning words 30-40. The only thing that applies to all levels is you need to spend time with your target language! And you need to have fun doing it.
Yh and your method is quite different from the one showed earlier by Alexander.
And I feel a bit more practical, where you choose someone your age, gender and a video instead of just audio
I did shadowing in the 80s. I walked around a quiet place while holding my radio near my ear almost everyday (I didn't have a cassette player at the time which turned out to be a blessing in disguise). I was repeating whatever was being broadcast on BBC (world news) and I could only understand about 5% (I was imagining myself speaking like a native broadcaster). I persevered for about a year when my English teacher started using BBC World News for our listening classes during which I learned the vocabulary very fast and everything clicked together beautifully. Within a couple of months my listening and speaking improved tremendously. Shadowing definitely works.
I agree. The key is "Shadowing with Text" It encourages you to look up words, build confidence, muscle memory and trains
not agree with that. Unless you already knew how to using intomation and tunes or something, 5% comprehension almost means nothing can be learn by listening. BTW, the news always going fast, if you only know 5%, no matter how long you listen , part of unkonwn still are unkonwn. That's meanless even you can explicitly resounds what you hear but no comprehension.
Haha, I did the same in the 80's in Berlin, also listening to the BBC. Then in the 90's I did a lot of shadowing at the Mediathek at the Freie Universität. Recently I took it up again and after a short time I got so good and fast at doing it that I enjoy it a lot. It makes you so capable that you can listen to say lectures from Stanford, Harvard and Yale on CZcams all day long without any effort.
@@chocolateearrings My technique is different, I don't use written texts only spoken language and try to shadow as closely as possible. It feels great.
@@cuivincent9744 Take into account that the news on BBC is rerun every hour. You learn the rhythm and melody of the language first. First shadowing is so awful that you can only do it alone. In the beginning you sound seriously brain damaged, but that will pass.
I've learnt something about learning languages: it depends on you, on what you want to achieve, on what you want to do, your likes and dislikes, etc. So, at the end of the day a certain technique, like shadowing, might be helpful for you, or not. Luckily the internet is full of techniques and opinions that can be used to build your own personal learning method. The important thing is to have and open mind and try different things, eventually you'll find what works best for you.
It's the opposite: only one thing really works and it's years of proactive exposure (especially listening and reading) to the language.
I think it’s important to realize though that it’s VERY hard to stick with learning a language…it’s the hardest part. So instead of finding the method that works “the best” and trying to “push through”, it’s more important to find the method that motivates and engages you the most. In the end, that method will end up being the best for you. Nothing is better in language learning than staying motivated and being consistent. So actually, it’s true that everyone has different ways that work for them. And what works for them the best is going to be the best method for them. Complete immersion would have made me quit a long time ago…so it wouldn’t have been the best method then. Don’t underestimate the desire to give up in language learning. Duolingo is full of people who are giving up all the time, because these people are told that it’s the best way to learn, so they keep that mentality and then they get bored of it so they quit.
You need to find the method (or methods) that works for you. We all like learning in different ways. The reason why I move at a solid pace in my language learning is because I do whatever method I want, whatever I feel like, every single day. If I listened to everyone tell me the “best” method, I would’ve quit because I would’ve lost interest.
Why be so narrow-minded?
@@nr655321 Exposure enough does not suffice. You would not learn grammar with just "listening and reading". Sure, it helps in many things, like listening. But then if you don't do anything about it, you would just stop improving at some point. another instance of this is vocabulary. Just being "exposed" to the word and hearing it may not be enough to learn about it. Sometimes you can guess the meaning, but that would not happen much ESPECIALLY when you are new to the language.
Matt V Japan is 100% pro-shadowing. The video you quoted was talking about shadowing at the beginning. He has several videos where he shows the specifics. I used his set up and it changed what I could hear dramatically vs just repeating without headphones. I would bet money it would be scientifically proven to help. If for no other reason, it is targeted listening.
Was just going to comment this! Matt is a huge proponent of shadowing as a method to refine pronunciation, elocution, and accent as a high-intermediate/advanced learner. His point was that beginners are not well-adapted to the sound profile of their languages yet. They need more aural exposure before they can pick up on the nuances of their respective language’s phonetics.
@@laurelbaker356 as far as i remember he even talked about asian languages. Not just spanish lol
I'm glad my shadowing setup worked well for you!
I would think Japanese like other tonal languages almost demands shadowing. You don't get the right sounds and you are not communicating.
I’ve heard that some interpreting schools teach people to shadow, sometimes in the same language. It helps interpreters be able build up their short term memory to be able to remember a paragraph and then translate it
Yeah. It’s literally the first exercise they teach you.
Basically, the enjoyable version of shadowing are songs. Loads of studies (Tim Murphy) show songs to be highly effective. While different than normal speech, the songs (if catchy) certainly inspire shadowing spontaneously, increase memory recall and raise learning interest.
I have been very successful with this method. I improved immensely after shadowing Spanish rap. I found a song that I liked, listened to it several times, and eventually found the lyrics to the song. There were obviously parts of the songs that I could not figure out without reading the lyrics (even if I was familiar with all the words). This allowed me to correct my listening and essentially improve my listening skills and familiarity with the sounds of the language. The main difference between my method and typical shadowing is that I would memorize the lyrics before I rapped along and compared my pronunciation to the rapper's pronunciation.
100% in agreement. I only shadow with songs. Can't stand to do it w/ any other material.
Agreed + 5% effectiveness points if practicing while on a road trip or while in the shower.
The biggest thing that shadowing helps with is recall.when you pre anticipate what someone is going to say, it makes it come to your brain faster. Helps in everyday conversation like pre-loading our brains with subjects.... Listen to the audio first and then go through it again repeating... But you're right, not one method works only, have to do a combination of different things to balance it out like a dance!
Can you please tell me about your method more? How many times you listen to the audio before recording yourself?
I casually do chanting in Sanskrit, and this is the method, once I've listened a few time, I chant along with the audio, it certainly helps me to memorize and pronounce well.
I have used shadowing off and on in my Spanish journey. I think that as a beginner and intermediate it wasn't very helpful for me but now that I am farther along i find it quite helpful. I listen to tons of audiobooks so sometimes when I'm listening i just repeat on auto pilot. I am usually 1 or 2 words behind. It helps me with just being able to get words out without thinking. It's almost automatic and it's like I don't even have to think at all, the words just come out by themselves. I will sometimes shadow before my Italki lessons and it helps me speak a little faster and with more fluidity. Sometimes I'll shadow for up to 30 minutes until I can't keep up anymore
, But I never stop the audiobook. So my shadowing lessons turn into a listening lesson whenever I stop repeating. I think that shadowing is better with very long texts and going for long periods of time. Don't analyze, don't stop, if you mess up then just keep going and go until you just can't anymore. Then just listen and relax!
Shadowing is so weird. When I was in Japan in a English speaking dormitory there was a morning study group that did a lot of shadowing exercises. Most of them were upper beginner and couldn’t speak but they could really shadow. I thought I’d join the fun and tried to shadow and to my surprise I couldn’t keep up with them at all. I later practiced shadowing with Japanese and got pretty good. Still can’t shadow English. Which makes me wonder how useful this really is. I really wanted it to help my Japanese pronunciation but I think the benefit was really short term and if I shadowed for an hour my pronunciation got better for an hour. That short.
It has improved my English immensely. It's not to meant to be the sole or main learning method. It's for when you already know most of the vocabulary you are listening to and your goal to focus on flow, pronunciation and intonation.
I listen to 10 seconds of an audio with text (following the text with my eyes) and then read it aloud, and then move on to the next paragraph, I am 100% it helps me that way.
I think your video is quite fair and balanced, Olly. I personally enjoy doing *some* shadowing, just for pronunciation practice. I'm learning Russian and have noticed that I *think* I know a word because I understand it, but then find that I can't pronounce it during conversation, simply because there are too many damn syllables and I've never had practice pronouncing the word. But you're right, at least in my experience, extensive input is what allows me to build my base of knowledge before I worry about pronunciation.
thanks for your comment
What you'll also find (if not already) is that Russians skip a lot of those syllables/consonants in speech, so the language is actually easier to output than you first anticipate when learning vocab/phrases in isolation. I found a much smoother section of road waiting when I started immersing, ha.
@@sandwichbreath0 Immersion is really the only way I've been learning Russian, so yes, I've noticed.
The benefit of shadowing is also that you need to actively listen so you're likely to subconsciously pick up on grammar patterns and identify commonly used words - this gives you a better idea of what you should go actively study after shadowing - "Oh I heard 'watashi' 10 times in that 5 minute conversation, I wonder what it means?", "Why do I keep haring desu at the end, what is that?"
Shadowing definitely works and helps.. a lot!
The thing is, like Matt said, for you to be able to follow this method correctly, you will need to first be able to listen correctly.
Not everyone can pick up patterns or pay attention to every syllable. Especially if you’re a beginner.
If you ask some people to repeat exactly what you’re saying, they will only copy what they were able to pick up.
And a lot of the times people think they’re saying exactly what they’re hearing, when they actually aren’t.
So before shadowing, I think we should practice our listening and ability to pick up patterns quickly.
I don't think shadowing is suitable for me.
I prefer ECHO method, which have 3 steps , LISTEN , ECHO in your head , and SAY out loud
First step is listening mean I have to listen very carefully. including the linking sound , silent letter , pitch accent , etc.
Second step is ECHO which means after I heard a sentence I have to repeat the voice I've heard in my head immediately
Final step is say it out loud.
We all learn different althought I don't see why I should avoid yoir techniche. Thank u for sharing it.
@@zahleer yeah may be someday when my English skill is better than this.
I should try shadowing. because it using less time
MattvsJapan doesn’t have an issue with shadowing. It’s in his Refold program.
However that’s for the output stage. That can only happen when you have enough input of your target language before you attempt to speak it.
i'm doing beginner danish off of assimil and for each sentence i do one where i just listen, one where i listen-and-repeat and finally the last one where i shadow. it's working out pretty well. and the shadowing immediately lets me know where i have problems. so yes it works, and it helps even at the beginner stage for me.
besides building muscle memory, it is also a great test to see your weaknesses. if there is any sound which you can't capture, you know that it's weak in your mind. In fact, there's research which shows that accuracy in shadowing correlates closely overall proficiency
If it's high-quality spoken output in a target language, shadowing makes sense to me. If you compare it to stage acting, and it is a good comparison--you could say that Glenda Jackson gave convincing output of an earlier form of English in Elizabeth R (1971), and also gained a deep psychological insight into the person/history. I doubt she'd have done that from reading the text of the script quietly at home.
I think shadowing has GREATLY improved my Japanese. Japanese pitch accent is really hard. In textbooks and such, pitch accent is taught with arrows and lines, but I just couldn't get it. Instead of getting my brain to memorize the rules, I just memorized how to pronounce the words through doing a lot of shadowing. Before, Japanese people had trouble understanding my Japanese accent, but now, I'm frequently told that my pitch accent is very close to a native speaker's. I guess you just have to choose the learning style that you enjoy.
It helps your muscle memory. Sometimes, I don't know the right way to finish the sentence, but my mouth just babbles it out. Sometimes, I use words that I've never studied or read before, but I've shadowed it a dozen times so it entered my vocabulary naturally.
You don't even need specific materials for shadowing. 98% of the time, I don't use a transcript. I just do some casual shadowing while listening to the news or something. (To be honest, shadowing helps me concentrate when listening to boring news and stuff)
And if anything else, it's just fun. When you are a beginner or intermediate student, you can't speak fluently. But if you can shadow, you can get that "runner's high" feeling. It FEELS like you're speaking fluently and that's just a super cool feeling.
My experience in shadowing is in the Vietnamese language. It is a very hard language to speak. I have read and listened to many hours but when I try to speak no one can understand me.
My wife (Vietnamese) wanted to sing at a friend's wedding. So, I shadowed a Vietnamese singer. Not only was my pronunciation spot on, I got a standing ovation at the wedding. So, it works. Years of ear training and singing in Latin have also benefitted my speaking.
I know a lot of non-native speakers of English. They know the language but their accent is so thick that sometimes it takes effort to understand them. Accent reduction is important and I really think you need shadowing for that. Anyway, that is my 2 cents on the topic.
Interesting story!
I don't think so. My accent is very, very mild to completely neutral in all 5 of the foreign languages I speak, and I have never done even a single shadowing exercise in my life. You just need to get a sense of the accent that you would like to adopt, and then correct your own speech for it, when you are talking in that language, toward that accent, paying attention to the vowels, first and foremost, but everything else, too. It will take a few weeks or months to alter your current accent, and make it your desired accent, the more intently you pay attention, the quicker the result. You can do it in your mother tongue, and any other language you know, if that's what you want.
@@Wandering.Homebody I don't see much difference between mimicking and shadowing. You listen carefully and repeat quickly. I suppose with shadowing you do it more contemporaneously. A good example is my ex wife. She can sound a bit like Olly. She learned to mimic a British speaker. She had almost no Vietnamese accent.
@@Ronlawhouston I don't repeat quickly, what? I just listen closely. And then, whenever I next have a conversation, which might be weeks later, I implement what I was paying attention to. If you want to call pronouncing words correctly "mimicking", then yes, I m mimicking, just like everybody else who has correct pronunciation in any language, including their mother tongue. It's a very broad notion of "mimicking", I suppose, but fair enough.
@@Wandering.Homebody I find I need to repeat quickly to develop the muscle memory. I want to imitate Olly.
The only "shadowing" I do is making a song playlist and singing along. It really helps with the accent, makes your ears to the pronunciation, introduces new vocabulary in a memorable context and works very well as a low attention practice (after you studied the lyrics, obviously). Another benefice, you leave the formal academic language level and step into popular level vocabulary and phrasing.
I have been using this method and that’s true. Shadowing actually gets effective when you’re already in B1 at least that language.
Completely agree. The journey has to fit us.
I struggled on with shadowing for a while and always dreaded 'shadowing day'.
I feel a lot of pressure and un-enjoyment (is that a word..I should have probably mastered English before starting on Chinese!) has been lifted and my learning experience just feels far more relaxed and like it will endure now shadowing is gone from my schedule. I can imagine reading or watching native content forever to keep improving, but the thought of having to shadow every day or every week was never something I wanted or felt I could carry through with.
Shadowing is one of my favorite techniques. I don't shadow with text though, I just listen to a 10-15 minute podcast through once for comprehensive, then shadow it the second go round. I've found that this has greatly helped my Spanish and Chinese over the years. The hardest part is finding podcasts at just the right level for me 🤷🏽♂️ that being said, I've never used shadowing to learn a new language from scratch, so maybe it would be less useful in that case
I had used the shadowing technique as a beginner,and when I did that, it stuck with me longer than just reading a transcript and listening to audio.
I recommend (mostly simple) shadowing for reluctant speakers at (almost) any level.
3:20 Actually, walking at a brisk pace, preferably outside, does make it a lot easier for many people with AD(H)D to process what they hear and/or read, so I can personally see his point. Come rain or shine, I do all my revision and final editing walking up and down the parking area behind my office.
What I got for this was that I probably shouldn't do shadowing when I'm beginning to learn a language, but probably aught to do it on a language that I am already mastering.
Which is basically just English. English is my only real second language and my English is about native level, in my opinion. I make about as many spelling and grammar mistakes in English, as I do with my native language. I have about the same vocabulary as my native language. But, my accent is still not native. It's recognizably foreign.
So maybe shadowing is something I aught to do if I want to improve my accent.
Ought meaning should is spelled like this with an o. Aught (pronounced the same) means nothing, zero.
I don’t mean it doesn’t mean anything, I mean that is it’s meaning: it means the concept of nothingness, and can replace the word zero. It’s old fashioned and british.
@@M_SC Yup, that proves I have about the same amount of spelling errors in English as my native Norwegian. Aka, a lot.
Reading out loud definitely helps my listening comprehension
This technique works for me. Everything I learned today was because of it I evolved a lot, I still use her today.
I totally agree with you! It takes more than just using this technique to actually speak or understand a particular language. I've just heard of this shadowing technique recently and I'm planning on making a video on my take on this in regards to learning Thai. Thank you so much for this great video!
i've always done this with music in other languages on my daily walks and can pick up accents really well and seem to pick up languages easily, always have.. i didn't think i was actually doing much to help just was fun for me. Glad to know now that it's kept some part of that learning bit of my brain active since now i'm finally dedicating to learn some languages actively
Shadowing is an exercise for simultaneous interpreters to absorb and process the message while talking all in realtime. It's not a bad exercise for language learners I think. But when you do that, don't be perfectionist and don't be discouraged if you can't follow every single word.
This concept seems to fit with certain personalities. Someone who is extreme on the perfectionist sprectrum might not enjoy shadowing given the inability of a beginner learning not hearing the tone or pitch to perfection. On the other hand, someone who just wants to get a feel for the sounds might enjoy shadowing. This is an interesting discussion. 👍🏽🙏🏼❤️
omg I knew that when I learned french songs and sang them back it helped significantly. didn't know there was a word for it!
Have not watched the video quite yet, but just wanted to shout-out the creativity behind the thumbnail!
Hello Olly! I really like your video. I practice shadowing in English as an aspiring interpreter. I' m a native french speaker, it helped me to build up my vocabulary and to sound like a native English speaker. Shadowing helps me to train my skills as an interpreter. Thanks Olly for your videos, by the way, I shadow you because I like your accent.
Thanks for sharing!
I think interpreters need shadowing. It's an amazing skill to be able to translate real-time. I know many Spanish translators since I am in Houston, Texas.
For me, shadowing has improved the rhythm and intonation in English. One of my native languages is very monotone, and the intonation and rhythm in the other are nothing like English. I also identify and improve specific sounds by comparing my own clips to the source material.
It’s been shown that exercise helps Language learning. Helen Abadzi also has mentioned Listening and shadowing while walking and cycling for exercise as a big thing she does.
Hi I've been learning with shadowing since i remember and that with translation and vocab learning makes me enjoy languages and it also makes me passionate about culture and all. I now try to expand my vocab in spoken language due to my lifestyle i havent got that much if a time to learn. But i learn thro since readings and I'd say knowing thing or two about how language is constructed how it works helps but shadowing makes you understand emotional expression of a language melody of it. So used well combined with all other technics and you can get some pretty good results it made me obsessed with pronunciation in British English and French
Correct,genuine and authentic text reading of target language kicks start writing likewise listening in speaking
Hi, Olly. Thanks for the high quality stuff you offer, learning through stories is one of my main activities in language learning. Just an update: in his 2022 language learning activities Steve Kaufmann is giving a try to shadowing. I can't comment about it because I haven't tried it yet, but I'm going to try it in the next language.
My impression of this technique is that it might be good for advanced learners who want specifically to improve their conversational pronunciation as opposed to citation speech (effectively learning prosodic features) but even then, I feel as though you can do this while also doing other things. As you point out, I'm also not convinced that this is by any means the most efficient method for learning even pronunciation specifically. It's an interesting idea though.
Interesting - I've found out I completely misunderstood what most people mean by shadowing! My understanding (from following a number of Japanese teachers/learners online, including Matt vs Japan) is that shadowing involves finding audio/video and listening, then talking over, then repeating after, then taping yourself to see if it sounds the same. I've done it and I've found it doesn't work so well if the text is beyond my Japanese skills its not much use, but when I've done it for phrases and passages it really works in learning to say things clearly. Whether being able to say a line exactly like an actor bleeds over into 'natural' speech, I don't know yet. But in my limited experience, shadowing is probably only useful if you have already been studying quite a lot and are confident that you are hearing all the subtleties in the spoken text, otherwise you'll just end up reinforcing bad habits.
I still have a few question points where I suspect you miss the point. I have not reached the point of automatic understanding of podcasts, movies and books, so shadowing is of no use to me at this time. But, listening to the episode of Matt you showed, I miss the preconditions that I feel are necessary to even start shadowing. The way I understand it is that shadowing is only of use if you *do* automatically understand what people are saying when they are saying it (like in your native language). If you are very advanced in the language in all aspects. Secondly, Matt mentions that you need to mimic someone of a comparable age group with a voice you like and of the same gender. That way you can learn both pitch accent and flow of intonation in the sentence. My overall impression from Matt is that you can do without shadowing and get along fine. But if you want perfection, shadowing might just be a very powerful tool. Olly, thank you for the video: it probably provokes many to consider or reconsider shadowing!
But this is part of the benefit of shadowing, Olly; shadowing cam help improve your fluency of speech because it also drills the grammar, things like prepositions and verb endings which would otherwise slow you down.
Fortunately there is a superior form of shadowing that a lot of people might already be doing without realizing, and that is singing along to music!
This is better because it’s way more fun so you’re more likely to keep doing it and there’s tons of material out there especially for Spanish. Also you are more likely to remember the words this way because song lyrics tend to get stuck in your head
Thanks for reminding of this method!
My problem with shadowing as someone trying to learn Japanese is that there is always two types of videos. The audio either goes excruciatingly slow to the point where it almost feels patronizing or it feels like a Ferrari with a rocket strapped to it that you lose complete control of until it dives off the cliff of motivation to do it. Even when I have text shown to me and I slow it down just a little bit, it’s still a struggle to keep up with it. It doesn’t feel like I’m moving anywhere with the language, instead of taking a step forward in learning the language, I feel like I’m just bashing my head into a brick wall until I’m just a mess.
I'm not sure if it applies to other languages, but in English, where the words don't match the sounds, it may be worth practicing
I’m on the next level… I’m doing shadowing with this video ahah
I find it useful for me because I’m Italian and I’m learning British English, there is a wide gap between the sounds of this two languages. British people stress a lot more vowels and consonants.
If I should study Japanease instead, I’d probably sound like them in 1-2 months of speaking, because we have a lot of sounds in common
I think just doing shadowing is a bit exhausting and not very fun. I sometimes just randomly repeat a sentence I hear in a movie, youtube video.
I would like to recommend singing rap songs (of course if a person likes them)
I used to sing Eminem songs often as a kid and I think my English pronunciation is decently good. (Btw this works better for stress languages like English, German etc. languages like Chinese and Japanese are still good for rapping if you want to practice basic pronunciation and speaking rhythm but you can’t learn the tones/pitch accent)
I think it may be a little unfair to assume that shadowing is there to teach speaking and the fluency of thought that is needed in that activity. But what I am convinced it does is to call on that basic instinct, mimicry, which we all used to learn our first language. And it's certainly helped me get my jaws round some of the more unfamiliar sounds in Brazilian Portuguese. No way is it an exclusive tool, any more than Duolingo is, but many of my students still find the latter really useful, even if only to torment them to action each day. Shadowing is staying in my toolbox.
Material choice is tantamount for me. Regardless of how it is heard, read or said. A biography on Carl Sagan resonates while "common phrases" asphyxiate. Methods lose benefits when you don't personally care about the message. Thank you for a quality upload Olly Richards.
Long LONG ago I discovered that I could (more or less) read French, but never learned to pronounce it correctly. I'm trying to fix this now, and not allowing myself to read anything in French without accompanying audio.
But I am also using Assimil to do some listen-and-repeat AND SOME shadowing with the same material. (Might try it on my 101 Conversations book when I need a break from Assimil....) The downside of shadowing is that you can't hear sound differences well enough if you are talking over the audio--those need to be worked out first. But the upside is that, once the sounds are clear, shadowing helps polish cadence and speed--and sometimes shows where I am still stumbling (and just won't admit it). I would say shadowing is, for me, a useful tool-but a minor one.
When learning Japanese sometimes the teacher made us to do Shadowing.I HATED it. Just found it too rude to talk while someone else is talking (I know it is a recording... but still... I couldn't bring myself to talk on top of someone). It just feels sooooo much better (for me) to listen to a sentence and THEN to talk.
However what I DO get is walking around while repeating or learning something. I think that mix of (very light) physical exercise and learning makes learning more efficient and makes it easier to not get bored.
I'm glad I have some shadowing books and CDs even if I don't shadow with them. You get the text with audio and translation so it's good comprehensible input. Especially in Japanese (or other complex script languages) - I don't trust myself to read the script perfectly, nor do I want a dumbed down version.
I feel like 4:18 is an explanatino of why it might *not* work.
"If you can´t hear these things, you can´t copy them, so in order to copy them, you have to become good at hearing them." In that case, lots of...listening...and ideally some minimal pairs would be better for listening than speaking, right? And you might hear the sounds but that´s not very useful when your tongue doesn´t know how to make them. I also don´t see how speaking over the audio improves your listening more than listening to it, rewind if necessary, pause and then repeat after it.
So yeah, shadowing might make sense after lots of, and in combination with, hearing and pronunciation practice,. It´d be interested to see studies on this, actually.
I think shadowing is wonderful -- specifically if your language learning goals have more to do with speaking and practicality. I study languages primarily to engage with literature, so speaking the language is still important, however shadowing just really isn't for me. Like a lot of others have stated, however, I think it comes down to personal goals and preferences. 😊
Now that I've got my Spanish to a comfortable level, I've recently re-vamped my Danish. As far as Danish goes, shadowing is a good tool ofr a number of reasons. First of all, if your pronunciation isn't SPOT ON, Danish people will very quickly resort to English. Secondly, while reading is a great tool for increasing vocabulary, you won't get the pronunciation because of the countless pronunciation rules in Danish. (For instance, the Danish word for Denmark, Danmark, has two "a's" and they're both pronounced differently.) So actually, learning the "rules"for assimilation and reduction in Danish is a good place to start and mimicing how things are said. That way, the only ryule you have is, "that's how they say it." With my new study program, I do alot of reading while listening and when I notice a chunk that that's pronounced differently than written, I'll note it and add it to my (make believe) folder of "that's just how they say it." In those cases, I'm not really listening and reading for comprehension, I'm engaging in that activity to improve my pronunciation.
I definitely don't think it helps you speak sooner since as a full on beginner you don't even know what's being said but once you know some of the language then yeah, I think it absolutely helps with pronunciation, accent, and listening comprehension. It's something I'm using right now to help me pronounce French better in the time I set aside specifically for working on accent. I only use texts/audio that are at my language level so that I actually understand what I'm supposed to be saying. I listen through the audio completely at least once while reading along with the transcript, then I'll make frequent use of the pause button (and maybe even slow it down a bit) to stop after every sentence or so to listen and repeat as best I can to match the speaker a few times, and then once I have a pretty good grasp of the material I run it through at full speed without stopping while speaking along with it. I think the technique is definitely helpful.
Regarding shadowing, some sounds, sound very similar, and you only truly learn the difference by watching the mouth of the native speaker. The shape the lips are making, exactly where the tongue is, and what it's doing while making the sound. Is air being forced out while the sound is being made, or is the sound being produced in the back of the mouth near the throat rather than the front of the mouth. I notice many people learning English may master the "th" sound if it's beginning the word, but struggle if it's within or ends the word. It sounds similar to the "v", or "f" sound, and the teeth and lip placement are similar. However with the "th" sound the tongue is placed against the front teeth, and air is expelled as the teeth and bottom lip pull away from each other. Even young children who are native English speakers, will substitute a different sound/mouth movement that will be understood as the correct word. However the incorrect way of producing the word is noticed. Babies learn by looking at the mouth of parents as they speak.
Aprendí francés con shadowing. Técnica e ótima. recomendo.
I think that for shadowing is rather limited to improving pronunciation to really high level, and it works better for some people than others. Also, I think that it might be more effective with carefully selected shadowing material, might be quite handy for minimal pairs of words that differ by one vowel (or consonant) that are not in your native tongue, so you can distinguish them while listening as well as in your speech. However, for me, there are so many more important things when learning a language. If your pronunciation is not absolutely intelligible, people will figure out what you wanted to say. If you miss the basic vocabulary, it does not matter you can make the proper sounds.
Funny to hear Matt says this after just having watched a video of his describing the headphone and mic setup on his computer specifically for the purpose of shadowing (and even demonstrating how it should be done)... he gave the impression then that shadowing is an integral part of his acquisition routine and that he does it often.
Maybe this take of his came later after changing his mind... or perhaps he's referring to how useful shadowing would be to total beginners (as he himself isn't one).
Thank you for this video. It is really interesting to hear your thoughts on this topic. Let me share my personal experience with everyone interested in this topic. I'm a native speaker of Thai and I learned to speak English during my early 20's. I like music so I play a little bit of guitar and sing (self-taught). Before I took the time to put 100% effort into learning to speak English I would often spent several hours per day transcribing guitar solo by ear. Also, for singing practice I would also do something similar to transcribing a guitar melody. I would play a portion of song (first verse for example) then I would listen very carefully and try to memorize the melody of that portion. I would then go back to the beginning of that portion and started to sing along and I would try my best to sound as close as possible to the portion of the song. It might have been a little bit challenging at the first few runs. During the first few rounds of sing along (shadowing) I would be able to notice if certain part was too long or too short or the pitch was off comparing to the original audio. I would then loop that portion of the audio over and over until I was able to pass with 100% accuracy (according to my own judgement of course) and then move on to the next portion of the song. For easy portions I would loop the audio for probably less than 10 times. But for difficult parts I would loop the audio as many times as I needed in order to pass with 100% accuracy. I would do this until I covered all parts (verse1, verse2, bridge, chorus and so on) of the targeted song. I found it to be getting easier after first 10 or 20 runs. After a few runs I noticed that I didn't put in as much effort as I did for the first few runs.
Soon after I found myself trying to learn to speak English. At the time the motivation was quite strong as English was the most important tool for me to go forward academically. For me, speaking was the hardest part of all the language skills. English pronunciation was tough for a Thai speaker on words that are heavy on r's and l's. At first I would try to listen to certain words on American TV programs and try to mimic the individual words. After I had a good command on pronunciation of "difficult" English words I would go on to try to do what I just described for songs practice with conversation. To me it literally was the same process, the only difference was that instead of songs I now try to "sing" the conversations. Back then I would record sitcom episodes (also movies or news) onto a video tape and try to "sing along" on certain portions of the dialogue. It was a mixed of Hollywood movies, CNN, Seinfeld, Friends and etc (early 2000's). I still remember vividly the part where I "shadowed" the phrase "these pretzels are making me thirsty" for several times from one of the Seinfeld episodes. Back then I didn't know that this particular technique that I heavily relied on was called "shadowing". It felt natural for me to do shadowing exercise as I did not know any better approach to improve my pronunciation and "singing" the melody of the English language. To this day I still do practice shadowing from time to time if I ever find myself not being able to speak something comfortably.
I can relate to Stu Jay's saying that "Language learning is a contact sport" which implies that your body (mouth and surrounding muscles) has to be trained and you need to practice your language skill in order to become successful in language learning. Through my whole experience of learning English, shadowing is one of the most prominent techniques that enabled me to improve my English speaking skill. I must admit that on certain occasions shadowing can be very boring and I think it is not for everyone. In my opinion, to be able to maximize the full potential of shadowing exercises you should be able to self-correct otherwise practicing shadowing would just be pointless. To be able to self-correct you need to possess the ability to discern sound (pitch and melody in particular). What good does it do if you are not able to "converge" to the "ground truth" after thousands of repetitions. Right? I watch this channel because I feel motivated to venture into learning more languages since I have gone through one already I feel the urge to chime in on this topic. My personal view is that shadowing is great for improving the pronunciation and the flow of your conversational speech but it has to be done after a certain level of proficiency is acquired (definitely not for beginners) otherwise it would hinder the process of language learning rather than helping.
By the way, I watched all videos of Olly and Jan attempting to speak Thai in 14 days and now I'm really inspired to start a new journey on language learning.
Not technically a shadowing but... I used to repeat short phrases or dialogs over and over, speaking at the same time as the speaker. It definitely helped me with Japanese pitch accent. A lot of words have stuck in my head with correct pitch pattern just because I repeated them. Other than that I didn't noticed huge benefits from that. Regarding pronounciation I recorded myself during the process and it appeared that my pronounciation was far from being perfect. I guess, you are whether focused on listening to yourself or listening to a speaker, not both.
the main point of this video is that if you decided to use Shodowing, use at least dialogs, which is close to speaking language
I do chorusing as per Olle Kjellin. It's quite like practising an instrument, where you play a phrase enough times for it to become automatic. The articulatory muscles are not that different from your fingers for example. You should chorus things that are difficult for you, but perhaps not things that are too easy, just like you should spend most of your time practising that one lick in a song that you can't master, even if rest of the song is reasonably easy.
Thanks for sharing
Shadowing helped me learn a specific melody and rhythm of the Italian language. If I simply repeat or read the phrases aloud, I perceive my pronunciation as exaggerated and fall back to use the melody closer to my mothertongue. While shadowing, however, the musical part of my brain kicks in, and makes me use the pitch accent closer to the recording.
Is it usable? Yes. Is it a panacea? Of course, not. I agree that you have to be able to hear the difference between the recording and your pronunciation for it to actually work. And that it can help you improve your pronunciation, but won't necessarily help you with the comprehension.
This is literally just me singing in the shower.
Juan gabrial and Miranda have Helped me quite a bit with pronunciation over time.
But it's icing, not cake.
I think it is disorienting but at the same time it has helped me with my Latin pronunciation.
If you are listening to some audio material and it sounds like it is slurred, then it would not be good material for you to shadow. It's hard to accurately copy what you hear if it sounds slurred.
Yes, shadowing can be very boring. Like doing push-ups.
And it will be more or less useful to you depending on your target language and your skill level in speaking, pronunciation, etc.
Can you read a long-ish sentence in your TL and say it out loud with good pronunciation and prosody? If you fumble through it and speak ... one ... word ... at ... a ... time. Shadowing may help.
Some languages have tough pronunciation issues (tones, sounds not native to you, etc.) that you just need to practice over and over. Don't have these down pat? Shadowing may help.
Some folks need to practice speaking and have mental blocks around "what do I say?" Shadowing may help.
Then there is the benefit of having a lot of phrases that you've said over and over again that are easy to rattle off your tongue.
It seems stupidly obvious, but: the most fluid things I can say in my TL's are the things I've said many, many times before.
And many phrases are re-usable with the swap of a word: "Where is the ???"
And there are many useful/common glue phrases you can pick up: "On the other hand..."
Yes, you can do repeated speaking practice without shadowing, but why not have a model to follow and compare against?
IMO, Shadowing is a great pronunciation and prosody practice that gives you automaticity in speaking common phrases.
My recommendations:
. Make sure that you understand every word / phrase you are speaking. It doesn't do you much good to be able to rattle off a phrase if you don't know what it means.
. Slow down the audio: Don't muddle through and mush-mouth it just to get through. Speed it back up a bit once you are able to confidently speak the phrase cleanly and clearly. And you don't _need_ to speak at full native speed.
. Short loop phrases if something is giving you trouble.
In Cantonese, I short loop shadowed single sentences quite a bit to get my pronunciation to be somewhere near tolerable and fluid. In fact, I should do it more.
Don’t mind me, just imagining some random Romanian guy in shorts learning English, seeing this video, and repeating absolutely everything that Olly says…
I think shadowing is a somehow great technique for singing lessons but I would'nt use it for language learning because, as you said, it kind of limit the quantity of information to the profit of quality that you might or not get depending on the quality of your ear (mine is a bit lame so bad idea for me).
p.s.: Do you have a version of that 101 conversation for Norwegian and if not can you tell me where I could get something similar cuz it looks cool?
I want a room like yours!!!!
Do you have any books for learning Japanese that I can read?
I have my own way to improve my speaking skills, I think shadowing has its place in language learning but I don't think shadowing is the best technique to improve my speaking...there are way better methods to improve the speaking ability
Thanks for the comment
Well, yes. Listening closely, and then just monitoring, and adjusting, your own pronunciation, as you are having actual conversations with people.
So, what's your method?
@@Gigusx I select pieces of information from movies like phrases, new words and expressions and I basically write down on my notebook and after that I say them out loud and review it over and over again. It has been working for me. Maybe that'll work for you too.
@@jhonatanqueiroz3189 But your goal actually just seems to be different. The goal for people who do shadowing is usually good pronunciation and yours would be getting better at speaking.
Dankon! Bonega video! ❤😊❤
For learning Spanish and Russian I do not find shadowing necessary but for Mandarin Chinese it is actually the only thing that allows me to progress... but I agree it is not fun at all.
What do you hold and click in your right hand?
I don't think I could ever shadow properly, I just have trouble talking over anyone, present or otherwise. I was reading while recording myself and then I would compare my intonation, etc with the respective audiobook but that tended to take up too much of my time that I'd rather use for reading.
There are actually various scientific studies that proves shadowing as an effective method.
Sorry Olly - made it as far as old mate talking about pronunciation! Shadowing - in my opinion (as a student not linguist) is OK to hear and read something - speak it out loud maybe … I found ( a few weeks ago) that reading a passage a few times, then listening to the audio, then matching the transcript, then talking to someone (only to B2 but using some of your stuff) seems to work for me - not too sure it works any better than some of the “Dialogues” - books, reading, then audio helps my absorption process and 75-80% of stuff just falls into my (small) brain!
how can we improve our accents if not through shadowing?
Nunca había oído hablar de eso.
Shadowing is fun
There's a better technique that gives you an almost native like pronunciation with less effort. Just look up "Quality Practise Pronunciation With Audacity - The Best Method! A tutorial by Olle Kjellin, MD, PhD."
Thanks for sharing
Simple Pimsleur works like a charm too
Hmmm.. why can’t I find a link. Looked for the video and author… nothing.
@@beyondthebasicsinpolish x2
@@AjSudanto What have been your results with his method? It actually looks a lot like what my French teacher did in primary school back in the day
Only just discovered your channel and methods and I’m loving the whole concept so far. I was thinking it would be helpful to have a schedule / plan / timetable to follow incorporating the different ideas and levels. Would help me stick to it better.
Great suggestion! It’s something that I include in detail in my courses, but it’s difficult to make generalisations outside of a specific learning context.
10:43 ....and the thing of shadowing is kind of _____ of that.
I couldn't grasp the word in the blank. Does anyone know? Plz. Thz in advance!
Antithesis
Do you have to do shadowing if you already have a gift for pronouncing different sounds in different languages?
I am exhausted with youtubers drinking coffee. They all copy each other.
Even more when the cup is empty... Something is wrong.
I was first 😅 Check my videos from years ago 😅
@@storylearning I doubt it, but if you say so :-)
Great content otherwise, but please youtubers stop the coffee shots!!
@@roucoupse haha seriously, you can check 😅
🤣🤣🤣 I agree
I think I've always used shadowing - not knowingly and definitely not by itself, but as an important technique to learn new languages.
In my case, I used to print or copy lyrics from my favorite artists and sing along whenever I was listening to them. What I was looking for, back then, was to find something that I enjoyed, in my target language (except with English, which I started studying because of bands and TV shows that I wanted to understand better). I learned a lot and it was definitely the main thing that helped me with pronunciation (and communication, as I could only practice twice a week, during my English classes - and the closest to iTalki were online chats and ICQ 😅).
I also think that I'm having a hard time learning Japanese now because I still haven't found something that I'd like to "shadow" 😂
Singing in a foreign language is also shadowing. Shadowing definitely works.
good
Pretty much agree with you, just one point I noticed is your claim that improved accent and pronunciation would come naturally from paying attention. I don't think that's true, most common thing is a person that lives in a country for years and can communicate, but have terrible accent. At least for myself, with a ton of bad habits but also thousands of hours of input, a better accent and clear pronunciation does not come naturally, it needs targeted practice.
Is best the Colombian Spanish.