The art of argument | Jordan Peterson | Big Think
Vložit
- čas přidán 23. 08. 2024
- The art of argument
New videos weekly: bigth.ink
Join Big Think+ for exclusive video lessons from top thinkers and doers: bigthink.com/p...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you really want to win an argument, or do you want to find mutual ground and understanding? Canadian psychologist and author Jordan Peterson feels that in most cases it's the latter. It might take some getting used to, he posits, as acquiescence by its very nature means admitting that you're wrong in some way. Jordan's latest book is 12 Rules for Life: An Antidote to Chaos.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JORDAN PETERSON:
Jordan B. Peterson, raised and toughened in the frigid wastelands of Northern Alberta, has flown a hammer-head roll in a carbon-fiber stunt-plane, explored an Arizona meteorite crater with astronauts, and built a Kwagu'l ceremonial bighouse on the upper floor of his Toronto home after being invited into and named by that Canadian First Nation. He's taught mythology to lawyers, doctors and business people, consulted for the UN Secretary General, helped his clinical clients manage depression, obsessive-compulsive disorder, anxiety, and schizophrenia, served as an adviser to senior partners of major Canadian law firms, and lectured extensively in North America and Europe. With his students and colleagues at Harvard and the University of Toronto, Dr. Peterson has published over a hundred scientific papers, transforming the modern understanding of personality, while his book Maps of Meaning: The Architecture of Belief revolutionized the psychology of religion. His latest book is 12 Rules for Life: An Antidote to Chaos.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TRANSCRIPT:
Jordan Peterson: So how do you deal with situations where your words are likely to be used out of context, let’s say.
And that’s a situation I’ve encountered. Well, you see, you encounter a situation like that very frequently. Everyone does in their life. If you’re having a discussion with someone you live with, for example, so someone you have to be with for a long time - a lover, boyfriend, girlfriend, wife, husband-sibling for that matter. You’re going to have contentious discussions about how to move forward and it’s very frequently the case that your words will be - that you’ll be straw-manned. Your words will be taken out of context.
The other person (and you too!) will try to win instead of trying to solve the problem. What you have to kind of decide is - well two things. The first thing is: you’re probably wrong in some important way. And you might think “Well, so what?” But no, it’s not so simple. Being wrong in some important way is like having a map that doesn’t correspond to the streets.
If you’re wrong in some important way, when you go to where you’re going you will get lost and you might end up in a neighborhood that you don’t want to visit! So it actually matters if you’re wrong.
And so now if you’re talking to someone who is acting in opposition to you, it’s possible that during your contentious discussion they will tell you something-about how you’re wrong-that’s accurate. Now you’re not going to be very happy about that, because like who wants to discover that they’re wrong?
But it’s better to figure out that your map is inaccurate than it is to get lost.
And so one of the things you have to remember when you’re discussing things with people, even if they’re out to defeat you, let’s say, is that there is some glimmering of the possibility that you could walk away with more knowledge than you walked in with.
And that’s worth - that can be worth paying quite a price for.
And so I’ve had the opportunity to engage in public debate of an exceptionally contentious nature for let’s say 18 months nonstop, fundamentally. And it’s been very stressful. But the upshot of that is that my arguments are in much better shape than they were, and-I shouldn’t say that. My THOUGHTS are much more refined than they were at the beginning of this process. It’s not my arguments are in better shape. That’s not the right way to think about it.
It’s that I’m clearer about what I know. I can articulate it better. And that’s all forged in the heat of conflict.
If you’re discussing a contentious issue with someone you love and that you have to live with and put up with, you want to listen to them. Because what you really want to do is establish a lasting peace, and you might even have to make their arguments for them. Maybe you’re more verbally fluent than your partner (which doesn’t mean, by the way, that you’re more right, it just means you can construct better arguments on the fly. It doesn’t ...
For the full transcript, check out bigthink.com/v...
Want to get Smarter, Faster?
Subscribe for DAILY videos: bigth.ink/GetSmarter
Intellectual dishonesty is a real theme for the Big Thinkers!
@@Christopher_Bachm p
Lo lo llpp pp pp p lo ppp0p
Ppplppplll
Pp pplppp0 pp p
"it's not a very good idea to win an argument with your wife"
This is wisdom.
@Hiphopanonymous Listen to Dr Peterson one more time
Or husband
Ganesh Prem 😂😂😂🤷🏼♀️
Theres no such thing as winning an argument, ideally both parties should be trying to communicate what problems they think they are and help each other with the formulation
Common sense. not wisdom
"Most people's arguments are incredibly shallow. They are not even arguments. They are just perceptual biases..."
Funny, I just had an argument with a woman, who was blatantly biased in favor of the female gender. I exposed her bias, and she called me a creep for "attacking a woman", proving even further my points, and at the end, I just deleted everything and blocked her and the other "woman" defending her, because it was a waste of time. Biased people, will always be biased. They say they want equality but you never see these women protecting men or advocating for their rights...
This quote sums up JP in a nutshell
@@AngelHdzMultimedia this happened with me many times , actually it happens almost everyday 😂 i heard lot of shaming tactics but it actually good now I learned how to destroy their shaming tactic in a a good way 😆 so now I can literally literally make them and angry and helpless at the same time 😂😂😂
@@ddnick shaking my head... 😂
@@AngelHdzMultimedia Yeah me too had similar experience she wanted me too complete agree with the point women can do abortion any time she wishes . When I disagree with evidence she calls me a narrow minded person and I fucking ignored her.
Its amazing, even here you can see Peterson "think" out his answer in real time, and even corrects himself if he goes astray from what he is trying to articulate. He's a great teacher for us all
All good teachers are able to do this.
From his "12 Rules for Life" book, Rule 10: Be precise in your speech.
@@andiemorgan961 i've never had a good teacher then
Ppp]90⁰⁰0 can 999999999999999999999999⁹99999999999⁹9999 if the
He's among the best.
"It's better to figure out that your map is inaccurate than it is to get lost."
Get me a source
That one had me like....woah
MrCaptainkirk1984 lie more
MrCaptainkirk1984 he's right though. You're not atheist. Atheist put faith in your belief that therre is no god. Also, if they have morals..they use the values of our religion to live their life by. Or at least twist the base morals created by God's religion.... Also, you're an idiot
MrCaptainkirk1984 and another also, Jordan Peterson is a mystic. Not a Christian despite his claim. He knows his shit for the most part but he isn't what he says he is
I love how clear his talk is. He definitely thinks about what he says
Isn't it amazing how many of his detractors claim he is incomprehensible to the point of speaking 'word salad'? He seems pretty clear to me, sometimes his ideas are complex but he very rarely explains them badly.
Because you two are idiots lol.
Dmitry Tabakerov,
That's the best joke I've heard all day.
Dmitry Tabakerov IKR! I know he's sometimes longwinded, but only because he argues in a logical progression where he explains each step. It's weird how haters will try to dismiss his views without rebutting what he said, or claim that he's incomprehensible when it's really easy to understand what he's saying.
In this video he layed out an argument for why you need to listen, yet some people will demonstrate his point beautifully by claiming anyone who believes different than them are idiots or joking. That way they can stay ignorant and don't have to listen to opposing views.
What I rarely see is people who will logically explain their disagreement with JBP with precise criticisms of the relevant video. Instead they use a cop-out that he's talking word sallad or that he's just not as smart as they are. Pretty convenient, LOL!
I think it is much more difficult to simplify complex terms, so that even a little child can understand, than to make simple things sound complex... People seem to hate this fact somehow, but it's true, complex problems start to untangle with simple things, like cleaning up your room, I think of it as a baby step towards much deeper and complex behavioural change.
Man, I love this guy. He uses language with great precision and care, and he hedges often which is quite relieving.
He seriously lacks concision.
I wouldn't say so, he's quite clear and to the point.
@@Knaeben you realize this is a 10 minute video you ADHD addled zoomer
@Anirban Pal: Yes, you've noticed a feature of Peterson's personality that is rare among public figures: he doesn't hide his thought process. You get as much process as you get conclusion. This is valuable . . . both specifically and generally. You see how he's getting to a specific conclusion and you also learn how to do that yourself more generally.
@@Knaeben in a talk about how deep you need to think, where it was said that some things are complex enough to have alot said about them, a comment about too long. I know there's a joke in there.
As a non-english speaker, I love listening to JBP even though I have to look up several unknown words quite often.
Kevin Maybe you should choose to listen to other viewpoints in addition to Jordan Peterson, but I just realized you referred to him as JBP, which implies you are part of his fan club.
Good for you man. That's the way to go if you want to get better at something. Challenge yourself with something interesting!
S Hogan
Yeah, listen to those viewpoints so you can see how ridiculous they are, right?
Maybe you should choose to LISTEN to him
Make this be a lesson for you that always listen to the argument point forward no matter how much you think you will disagree with it. Listen to it as a whole and then you would can properly articulate whether to support it or reject it.
Why does this guy get all the hate? His Big Think videos seem pretty moderate and straight forward.
That's probably exactly why. Since social media took over the world, those qualities aren't as welcome as sensationalism.
Because he hides religious-based dogma, bigotry, and otherwise absolute nonsense among technically correct discussions on censorship.
His political positions come with extreme amounts of philosophical baggage that few can follow.
Malgidus reeeeeeeee biggotmisogynistracist reeeeee
He get's all the hate because he's a hypocrite. He doesn't follow his own words and neither do his followers. His followers are obsessed with winning. Videos on youtube entitled "Jordan Peterson destroys liberal" or "Jordan Peterson owns feminist". And he himself is obsessed with winning too.
"Not what to think, but how to think." Peace nobel prize for this gentleman.
This guy is blitzing the web simply because he articulates well known and common sense themes, brilliantly.
Can you point to something brilliants JP has said? Thanks.
@@jerrygreene1493 Take your pick just search Jordan Peterson.
@@jerrygreene1493 you are literally on a video that has him saying brilliant things
@@kellybrady7863 What brilliant things?
@@jerrygreene1493 When approaching a contentious issue, one should evaluate all possible arguments and argue for and against each position in order to be able to articulate what they actually believe in regard to that issue.
Whenever I listen to a new Peterson video I always feel little wiser to handle all my ignorance......
Aye. The only thing I'm sure of as I get older is that I don't know as much as I thought I did 🤔
Wow! Very well said!
Wow! I'm a second year psychology student in Amsterdam and we use the forced devided opiniated discussions in our group seminars. I actually respect them more now that I know why they did that and that they did it! Much love to you Jordan!
Tom Jansen,
This is a standard debate practice form used used for millennia. It is also the basic premise that underpins most of what lawyers do on a daily basis.
Don't make the mistake of confusing your lack of knowledge for someone else's brilliance.
^ "i am very smart"
Ik ben student Culturele en Maatschappelijke Vorming in Amsterdam. Tijdens het kijken van deze video werd ik geïnspireerd om een psychologie/filosofie/(literatuur?) bijeenkomstje te organiseren! Lerend discussiëren, met deze richtlijnen van JP, zou van meerwaarde zijn voor iedere deelnemer. Kan ik je een Facebook bericht sturen om hier verder over te praten?
Devided? Try working an English course into the mix.
chrisose Douche bag
The best advice you can receive in your life is at 3:20 - 3:55.
Your absolutely right !!!!
Very informative. A lot of people now days never consider the other view point and why hey think the way they do. It is very important for people to be considering the other arguments and what works or doesn't work so they can better understand their own view points
except people nowadays aren't arguing over abstract political concepts that will never affect their livelihood. Contemporary politics is rooted in civil liberties and not all "opinions" are valid.
Everything today is reality show and winning is all that matters. Calling 1st matters more than lending a helping hand or trying to understand the other viewpoint.
PixelSwitch7 to believe that not all "opinions" are valid is a false premise.
How could you possibly know if an opinion is valid if you don't listen and understand it first?
Exactly Regis Lafrance, but I am sure if ask he/she will mention nazis.
The reasonableness of this great man is continually enlightening. Many thanks Mr Peterson.
"It's not a very good idea to win an argument with your wife, because a defeated partner is not happy."
- JBP
It makes me wonder how much husbands care about losing arguments.
@@theboombody Husbands realised ages ago it's better to never win an argument with your wife to the point is an intrinsic part of the boomer generation humour. Wives on the other hand...
I feel sorry for all the extremists that are trying to bring this man down. Obviously he got his flaws and he'll have bigger ones in the future, because making mistakes is the natural result of trying to understand anything.
But at least he proved that logic can be more popular than any propaganda, at least for once, and that's a very good start to get rid of both left and right extremisms
This is why I'm still subscribed to big think.
It was getting dicey for awhile wasn't it?
Same
the only worthwhile talk I've heard on think big
I'd so so far, but it is not enough to make me stick around
I've found a lot of discussions like this boil down to:
"This is how what you said made me feel" (And they are right)
"But that's not what I meant" (And you're right)
And there is no reconciling this.
It sounds like any day with my ex.
patodiblasi I hear you. Tired of being told "You don't listen", when being able to recite verbatim what was said, how I interpreted it, and what I think was meant. And I know the difference between hearing and listening. Just tired of it.
Peter Hamilton So accurate that it saddens me... Everything you say WILL be used against you. Everything you say is offensive.
Peter Hamilton
Yes there is!
All you have to do is, Before you start defending your position, you have to state the gist of your partners position back to them, to 'their' satisfaction.
And ask your partner to do the same for your positions in return.
This way you are actually listening to each other, and you get some of the emotional baggage out of the arguments, and the arguments are much better articulated as a result.
Help each other... Because you have to live With each other.
This is a psychological exercise that requires two 'willing' and relatively reasonable partners.
Rohan Jarande This is exactly my style. But it can be slow and laborious, and some people get frustrated with having to explain themselves in some detail if they are impatient, or have poor communication skills.
Super eloquent. Always refreshing to hear Dr. Peterson.
So enlightening it literally brings tears to my eyes
"Most people's arguments are unbelievably shallow. They're not arguments, they're just perceptual biases." That's argumentation in a nutshell, and so true.
at worst they dont even listen what you say
I am soooo grateful for the internet to be able to access Dr. Peterson
This man has an incredible amount of intellectual integrity. He corrects himself and admits when he’s clueless. Respect
That's amazingly fair and powerful about HELPING your partner in constructing the argument or her/his side of a dispute or issue... and not just crushing them if you are more articulate with the power of YOUR own speech making it appear that you win. This applies to both sexes/roles.
Again I cannot believe how entitled students are to listen to Dr Peterson’s lectures. This man is just amazing.
Was the word you were looking for priveledged?
The comments section, gold. I still have fond memories of university professors teaching me that name-calling is a logical fallacy. I guess things have shifted so far now towards using fallacies as a salve for wounded pride.
l o b s t e r w a v e
Seretonin waves
hahaha, well done!
Jordan's always correcting correcting correcting as he goes. I don't agree with everything but he's a very thoughtful person.
@Ryan G.: Yes, you've noticed a feature of Peterson's personality that is rare among public figures: he doesn't hide his thought process. You get as much process as you get conclusion. This is valuable . . . both specifically and generally. You see how he's getting to a specific conclusion and you also learn how to do that yourself more generally.
see his video "how to public speak" - it explains why he does it - brilliantly
Such a great mind, even here in 2184.
Elton Williams shut up.
Been there. Didnt like the food
Greetings from the past!
2184 is so 1970
I know I know. I was thinking the same thing
I do this in my marriage, I try to help my wife articulate what she really wants when I can, if I think I'm right in the situation so that the fighting is minimal and we get to "constructive resolve" as soon as we can so that we minimize any possible toxicity that will strain any relationship.
Professor Peterson I always enjoy listening to you. You are very interesting and thought provoking. Thank you for your continued inspiration.
If you want to argue with integrity - think of the person as your favourite Auntie, it works every time. Slows you down. Makes you articulate and you can accept criticism!
Argue with integrity
I like that 🤔
I really hope Professor Peterson and his family are doing much better. He's such an important human for us all.
Stay safe, everyone.
I really wish I had this man as an an instructor teacher when I went to college my God I would be so much further in life now
I feel that way and I'm 60. Finding Dr Peterson 2 years ago actually kind of saved my life, I was giving up mentally, just feeling like there was no one around who thought on this level!
How clearly he speaks! His ability to articulate and verbalize his thoughts and feelings are unbelievably spectacular which I wish so much that I had😍😘😘
Best example I have ever seen in my life of somebody taking on the other side of a complex debate and having their view shifted was Cassie Jaye in the red pill movie. It is an absolutely inspirational thing to watch somebody be humbled like that.
After listening to this man, my mind feels freshly showered. Dressed in clean, warm clothes, and ready to seize the day.
Thank you Dr. Peterson.
I think this is a perfect example of why Dr. Peterson is so popular. Very clear headed and well thought out, he handles difficult subjects with authority and grace.
For some reason, I figured out that all of this was important on my own, or something like that. Discovering Jordan Peterson was like discovering a version of myself that is much more articulate and has spent his life further thinking out all of my thoughts. He is the one person I have found in this world so far that is like me. This past year I have been baffled over why that is the case, how people could go their whole lives without seeing the importance in actually understanding and evaluating the whole argument, rather than just using their own “perceptual biases.” (Which is a perfectly worded thought of mine). I have dreamt about the possibility massive education reform to teach people exactly this, because I like to think that most people are capable of developing these skills/habits, but they never learned how, rather than being biologically incapable. JP just showed that he already knows exactly how to do that, to truly teach people to think. I love this man.
...the art of CRiTiCAL thinking 🤔 🙏
This guys vocabulary is so vast. Very well articulated man.
Clarity of thought and precise articulation of ideas coupled with the ability to summon the apt information for the situation.Jordan Peterson can make poetry out of conversations!
“You’re probably wrong in some important way.” Those who can admit this are my heroes! Not because “when you’re wrong I’m right!” But because the great character they possess!!
This guy has shit well and truly figured out, more so than pretty much anyone else Ive ever came across. So glad I have his work as a resource to talk sense into me whenever I feel like I need it. Invaluable.
I record my important discussions even though it may be not exactly legal. I then listen to it several times. It is amazing how different is my memory of the discussion compared to the recording. I am much more calm and composed in the recording compared to my memory and there is much more quality in the opposing view in the recording than what my memory tells me.
In summary:
Most of the time during a argument the words that are used against each other might be used out of context ; you will most likely be straw manned.
Winning a debate feels good and losing in debate feels less satisfying thus both parties in a debate will always try to win but there are other things you can do instead of winning.
There are 2 choices in an argument : You win the argument but you might risk of being misunderstood / You might lose or come to an agreement but both parties might understand each other through ; finding a acceptable middle ground and decide which choice to use for particular set of argument
There might be a chance that you might learn new things, information or perspective you haven't seen before which can be a win even if a argument is lost making the argument valuable to you
If contentious/controversial topic or issue is discussed the 2 choices for the argument should be carefully choose for the situation with different people
Sorry just trying to summarize so people don't need to watch the entire video or read long scripts
Very empowering and well articulated.Thank you !
Crystalline thinking, beautifully articulated. As always.
Agreed. I love to see his thought processes how he takes time to think. It is a lesson and an allowance also. Refreshing and real.
I love Jordan Peterson so much, I hope he is healthy, fine and comes back stronger than ever. The world needs him and his logic, eloquence and goodwill more than ever right now. He is a great influence on critical thinking and promoting self growth and self reflection.
A brilliant man! The way he formulates his thoughts is just amazing. I one day hope to be as clear as he is in presenting ideas.
Well said, Mr. Peterson.
Doctor.
I think a better discussion would be how to get your opponent to actually listen to what you're saying instead of them just planning ahead to how they'll react so they're not really listening.
eclecticaspie It starts with you... take initiative and listen... your "opponent" will follow. I think your premise is already wrong
eclecticaspie
Both you and your opponent would have to enter into a debate, or dialectic, in good faith.
You would also have to understand both parties are going use pejorative in an ad hominem periodically to show their distaste to their opposing argument.
Honestly that is a major problem, and a major detriment to the human condition. Some refuse to listen no matter your approach. Outside of being able to change yourself there is little you can do to alleviate that issue.
I'm no expert, but i'd suggest finding things you can agree upon first, including your objectives at that moment in time.
It's easy, use the Socratic method
Wonderful discussion, Dr. Peterson. Thank you so much for sharing what you have learned with us.
Having watched most of J.P.'s videos, this one summarizes elegantly and in a sharp way his wisdom on both how to better a relationship and how to approach a difficult subject. Amazing!
Trolls are out in force in the comments. Nobody has a good solid argument against Dr. Peterson, just cheap shots.
Where?
The only things I’ve seen said against him are things like “oh he pushes religious garbage,” which is exactly the type of discussion he’s denouncing. Labeling a speaker as “religious” to take away their credibility is just more identity politics. And he says he doesn’t even believe in god, just that he “acts as if god exists”. Nobody is willing to pull their head out of their echo chamber and actually just listen to it so they would rather dismiss him in whatever way possible.
Someone in another thread mentioned that he says really obvious things (things the person apparently thought of when they were 12), and if that’s the case then apparently we don’t need people standing up and giving an example of how we can better discuss/debate things. Tell everyone with good life/relationship advice to shut up because they’re being really obvious and see what happens when they all do. I suspect we may not like the world on the other side of that.
I love watching his GQ interview argument. I watch it all the time. It’s my favorite video to go back to and the way he dealt with the radical leftist feminist is amazing. Jordan Peterson is a genius. Currently loving reading his book. Can’t get enough of his immense knowledge!
I often wonder about those journalists who have tried hardest (and failed hardest) to take him down, such as GQ lady (Helen Lewis, I believe) Cathy Newman, Decca Aitkenhead etc, and whether their professional and personal lives are now permanently negatively affected when they meet people who have seen/read their humiliations.
Teaching people "how to think", not a quote, a skill an informed society needs. I appreciate your approach in assigning a task of argue the opposing view.
It's not a good idea to base your decisions solely on "wining arguments".
Life it's about people, it's about whats happening... not only about express yourself in a way only few people can defeat you.
Life is not a constant war.
Jordan Peterson is a modern sophist.
JP made me realize that even those with the most subtle political leanings will be painted as extremists by the opposition.
When i became an adult i decided that every time i entered into a discussion with anyone i would silently want them to prove me wrong. That's how i figured i could best learn.
I quickly found however that a lot of other people get upset if it looks like they may be wrong and i couldnt bear that so i shut down having discussions and withdrew into myself...... ah the difficulties of being very high in openness and very high in agreeableness
I have that same problem. lol. you stated it so well.
My God, that was very well put. It makes it almost impossible to possess a firm stance on any topic. I may be wrong but I can't help but think Slavoj Zizek has the very same issue. But you know, it's not always a bad thing, I'm not sure in what way exactly but I still do feel an amount of optimism towards the very same idea of too much openness.
I love discussions. Not arguments as when you say argument people always want to he right. I love Jordan Peterson lol. What a smart cookie I can actually follow. He thinks like meeeeeee
I can't follow anyone else because they go too ow and I get distracted. Jordan sometimes goes too slow but it's usually manageable
But he orderliness is amazing. I get jealous because I jump ship constantly. I gotta learn how to keep my line straight
I love that this video is filmed in such a way that he's looking directly into the lense of the camera. Or at least it looks that way.
@JordanPeterson
'Most reasonable man alive'
The “art of argument” has been lost with the advent of group confrontation and shout-downs. These things play well to the slack-jawed Twitter and MSM crowd, but ultimately only betray the fact that these mobs simply haven’t done the work necessary to form and articulate a coherent argument.
IdleBigots At least they’re listening and not engaging in mindless chants, shout-downs, and confrontations. The idiot left listens to no one, as they already have all the answers LOL.
Hard to make an argument that mobs who don't listen, don't care and don't think will always get punished... populism has always been a powerful force.
The slack-jawed[Generalised Group on other side of political spectrum] can't respond with a coherent argument, you tell em JP!
--Well then what about the JP fanbase?
"AT LEAST THEY'RE NOT THE GENERALISED GROUPS I HATE!"
Good point but I also want to point out that what passes for argument has been severely crippled. Ad hominem has become so routine that I watched Peterson face ad hominem from another PhD in an on stage debate and nobody called it out! The moderator just turned to Peterson and was like "well, how do you respond to that?" I was amazed that Peterson himself didn't simply say, "your argument is full of shit and I refuse to rebut ad hominem except to say piss off."
Secondly, I think IdleBigots has a very good point. Peterson once noted that in a study to determine if political correctness was a real thing that the results showed that #1 yes the phenomenon is real; and #2 there was 2 distinct populations in the left for political correctness. One group simply abided by political correctness the other group was more extreme and wanted to legislate it. I think there is a parallel for the right--that there is at least 2 populations on the right, and one of those is the neo-nazis that conservatives keep denying.
Are you assuming that Peterson has coherent arguments?
His teachings are powerful...I would have loved to be in his class...He makes me think like no one else...He is a unique individual and we can trust that he has given much thought to his ideas and teachings...Someone we can trust to deliver the truth and highly valuable information..
Types of argumentation:
Material/scientific argumentation:
Based on hard evidence and publications
Spiritual/metaphysical argumentation:
Based on cases regarding anything that cannot get any hard evidence
Moral argument:
Is X moral/ Is to moral to X?
False argument/logical fallacy:
Arguments that are weak and easy to make.
There's this sneaky manipulative trick I've noticed JP uses commonly, and he did it in this video at 0:44 . (I suppose it makes a person sound more authoratative/knowledgeable):
"What you have to kind of decide is.. well 2 things. The first thing is, you're probably wrong in some way."
OK. What's the 2nd thing? There is none.
Lots to learn from this Guy
This video is 5 years old at the time I'm writing this. How I wish people would listen to what Jordan Peterson is actually saying. I know of very few people who get taken so excessively out of context as he is. I just watched a new video from Big Think which was posted five days ago, where Bo Seo is talking about the art of debate. It was fascinating to hear him explain the way he listens in a debate. It was exactly what Jordan Peterson taught in one of his lectures (either Harvard or Toronto, I can't remember) when teaching his students about Carl Rogers' approach to listening for his school of Psychotherapy called Client-Centered or Client-Based therapy.
One thing I learned from him is how to structure my sentences better.
As he said, it is really a great weapon.
I really like this guy even if I have a few disagreements with him.
two times I've left disagreeing with him that I've see so far:
1. his first discussion with Sam Harris he didn't do very good but he came back in the second & did fairly well
2. His complaint with 'equal out come' which I 100% agree with him I just don't see many people other than a few crazy college kids pushing for that, most just want to balance the start with making education/healthcare more available. Easy way to look at we want to create a floor not a roof, no matter what hard times hit you we want to make sure healthcare doesn't bankrupt you and if you want to go back and learn more for a better career great.
He advocates for universal basic income and healthcare.
The "equality of outcome" doctrine is thoroughly mainstream. Every day in the major papers I can find you an article about how we need to "do something" to "fix" the outcome disparity between X and Y demographics. There are already extensive affirmative action programs in place throughout most western countries that are based on a belief in equality of outcome, and not on any evidence of discrimination that requires a remedy.
You don't see the equality of outcome thing? Have you taken a glance over at the entertainment industry recently? Where telling a good story isn't important anymore, but skin color and gender are.
Or hell, many businesses out there which have quotas for female and minority hires.
NegatingSilence I will concede that on the gender pay difference since that is one thing I disagree with Bernie on. I don't think that is sexism so much as different career interests and men being more assertive/aggressive in wage negotiations.
Yeah his argument with harris the first time wasnt great. He had an auto immune response and he described that whole month as one of the worst of his life because he was very sick. And I think the reason he argues with the "equality of outcome" supporters so much is because canada has already made legislation supporting that ideology. Plus he his life has been very oersonally affected with that group of people as well.
My mom used to say that I could argue black was white and that I missed my calling as a lawyer. It has helped me though having that ability to see both sides of an issue.
in high school you might get to try formal debating
''It's not a very good idea to win an argument with your wife'' that's the most important lesson Jordan Peterson gave us
That last educator taking literature side was so deep yet such an insightful knowledge on how one should act being in that position.
When you can argue both sides of a issue to the point that you can easily see which side has to have the greatest amounts of critical information ignored to meet the common public supported level view of it being the right view, only then do you know which side is likely the correct and true to reality view regardless of what un/improperly educated public popularity support or consensus may say about it.
If you have to openly ignore and or decry the validity of a counter arguments supporting information that goes above and beyond your own talking points based on arbitrary personal subjective standards that is where you lose the debate even if you claim otherwise and do so with all the worlds false proud smug arrogant foolishness you can muster.
I'm happy to see JBP making sense in a video for the first time in a while. This is much needed after that PragerU nonsense. Evaluating both sides of an argument, and indeed every side possible, is invaluable to finding a comprehensive understanding. I would like very much to read a 500 word essay of Jordan discussing the counter argument for his definition of truth, for his view on how he finds god within his fundamental axioms, and also how he connects that "god" to christianity and the "perfect archetype". While we're on that note, also an essay refuting christ as the "perfect archetype". Have it on my desk by the end of the week.
John Towery,
What is ironic is that Peterson has obviously not taken his own advise. He never has a clear and concise answer for anything which shows how little thought he has put into his positions. If he was 5% as smart as some believe he his he could easily anticipate the objections and questions he might face and consider his responses in advance. Yet what we see is the exact opposite, with his long pauses, "that is too complex to explain", "I don't know what you mean by ...." all of the classic stalls and dodges of someone without any answers who is in way over their head.
chrisose exactly right.. That is probably the most annoying thing about listening to him speak. If your argument relies on "it depends on what you mean by x" then you better have a well thought out explanation for your proposed alternative meaning of x. He tries to bend words so much to match his narrative, it's almost like... Like he's a.. A POST MODERNIST! (Dun-dun-dah!)
The world needs good arguments and civil discussions. May we all learn from this.
Being wrong shouldn't be a hit to your ego. It should be a mistake people need to owe up to.
And I was wrong on a lot of things. That doesn't mean I was a bad person. I was just a human like Dr. Peterson was.
Good video and good points!
could you give us an example?
Came for the JP hater's wharrrrgarrrbl in the comments section.
Left satisfied.
Jordan Peterson has only spoken to superficial liberals?
What standards does he not meet?
Came for the cult followers, left confirmed.
Yea man grow the fuck up.
Jesse Galloway by whhhagaggagaggrr he means being triggered by Peterson. Which is hilarious bc Peterson is essentially a figure who exists solely to massage the male ego and tell men everything will be ok.
I'm not really a Jordan Peterson fanboy. I just find it hilarious how many keyboard philosophers/psychologists are severely triggered by him and/or misrepresent him. For example, distilling his works to "a massager of male ego" is astoundingly shallow and disingenuous.
I was nodding my head all through the video. I cannot explain how important it is for people to see this before deeply engaging with the world out there.
I hope Mr Jordan lives a loooong, healthy, and joyful life. The world needs you
I love Jordan. Great guy.
We love you Jordan!
Redigeraren Eller Eller?
No! Grow a brain and read a book.
He's 100 about listening (so important) and recognizing that you may not be right.
The goal is always to solve the problem, not to win the argument.
Good stuff!
People approaching an argument as a battle that you have to win as opposed to an act of refining and shaping thoughts and beliefs of each other is why half of all marriages fall apart.
To understand argument, is a philosophy it self. A lot of argument is wasted, Mr. Petersons perspectives, stands on the point we can broaden your own perspective to understand each person situation on what is right and wrong, as every thing in life there is no right and wrong answer, for example, when is it moral to take another persons life? .. some people think it is wrong all together.. but in situation of self deference or in time of war.. that is actually legal.. all case and matter has a degree of right and wrong.. it is perspective which is important.. and when that perspective should be correct in what circumstances. Not that far back, Warrior was praised as knights and protector of realms.. King Arthor and his round table are mass murder.. and yet we have fair tails about them.. this is all perspective.
Worst kermit the frog impression I've ever heard
nvr mnd yeah, he was much better in the beginning
nvr mnd This comment wins today's World Wide Web.
nvr mnd - Read his 12 Rules for Life. Will change your life. This man is truly brilliant.
I watch Dr. Peterons videos over and over again and learn something new from the same video everytime. But its only highly articulate speakers that have the ability to wrap a multitude of perspectives, each with their own branches of meaning, into one meaning so that its necessary to watch multiple times to get the full array of meaning attached to it.
This appears to have been extracted from a larger lecture. Could we have all of it please?
Can't have enough of Dr.Jordan
Cashier: Would you like to pay cash or credit?
Jordan: Well it's not that simple..
Ha ha hah!
I have had this issue myself and came to this conclusion... if you are constantly being misunderstood than maybe you are a bad communicator of your overall point. Maybe you include irrelevant details or maybe your physical delivery is adverse but its clear that the point you wanted to articulate got lost due to your own delivery.
Per Peterson's last few years of "debates", he is arguing for the point of arguing. He is not clear and goes into discussions for the point of fighting while remaining calm aka possibly inadvertently gas-lighting. Its still**** pretty foggy what are Peterson's points or opinions over him defending himself and the other rejecting him as a entity. He needs to break out of his entity and make his points as a person.
mc0325,
The more I see of Peterson the more I am convinced he doesn't actually know why he holds some of the positions he puts out there.
If you're being constantly misunderstood, it is posible that you're not communicating very well your ideas, yes. But it is also posible that your ideas are too complex for the people you are speaking with; maybe because you're speaking about something really complex, or maybe because they are stupid.
gabriel,
Classic argumentum ad populum
patodiblasi,
It is definitely not because Peterson's concepts are too complex. In fact the people who came up with the ideas Peterson pushes actually did a good job of explaining them.
chrisose I didn't mention Peterson.
1:30 I'm wrong! I'm clearly and unambiguously shown wrong. How wonderful! I can now rethink some things. What an exciting place to be.
Another golden nugget in the mines of CZcams!
The art of arguing...Like Jordan Peterson: Pretend to listen to opposing world view, then ignore all that was said and straw-man them repeatedly, until they become frustrated and leave. Cue moronic responses....
Keatrith Amakiir so true honestly but you missed the part where he then adds in a bunch of “facts” that are extremely biased or over exaggerated lol
He also employs the gish gallop often. His fans will say their almighty leader is unbeatable in a debate when in reality, he keeps making points that have almost nothing to do with the topic at hand. He says some truths which the other person can't deny which makes it look like like his whole argument is correct, and then goes on to talk and talk about nothing in particular. When he is confronted with a serious counter-argument, he won't even answer the question directly, just dances around it and says so many vague things that don't answer the question that the other person just gives up or the whole cycle repeats.
don't forget the subtle right wing theocratic and fascist injections via conditioning semantics.
E J How can a fact be biased or exaggerated? It's a truth. Care to provide examples of him doing whatever it is you're accusing?
Which is completely unrelated to my comment. E J doesn't claim JP lies about facts or even mistakenly uses false ones, he specifically said his *facts* were *"biased" and "exaggerated",* which contradicts itself because a fact cannot be biased or exaggerated - else it isn't a fact.
So, is E J claiming that JP lies or is wrong, or is he just talking shit because some facts are inconvenient to him - that is the point.
True
Nigga the video has been up for 5 minutes. You posted 1 minute after it was uplodaded. How can you know if the message is true?
Eeriewolf Peterson = True
Bjarke Erichsen
Trolling being done right.🐸
u = true'nt
JP is such a brilliant guy. I always greatly enjoy his commentary.
Once again a complex concept laid out in crystalline fashion for our benefit. What an educator.