rules update, non player detractors and why we can always do better.
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- čas přidán 4. 07. 2024
- A quick update to explore where Im at after reflecting on the A&A rules and editing down the pdf to work for me.
Plus a return fire for Brant, who wont engage in conversation and has me blocked but appears to be once again seeking to promotion via 1st Pander division. Be cool to have a conversation and exchange ... but oh well. Keep digging boys, Im here thru Thursday. - Hry
Thanks for putting yourself out there. Your comments about the rulebook are right one. You were very clear that it was just one man's opinion and that you were gobsmacked about the length of the book, especially in context of the original version.
If the "haters" don't like it, they can choose to watch something else.
I appreciate you candor. Keep up the great work.
I appreciate that!
Agree or disagree, I always appreciate your honesty and obvious love of the hobby. Keep up the good work!
Thanks, will do!
I agree Kev, a page or two of Designer Notes at the end ... that would fine in the main rule book. A sentence or two of Designer Commentary per each page or so of rules would also probably be fine in the main rule book. But any more than that? Then it definitely needs to go into a separate Play Book.
10k plus words......
Kev, I ALWAYS enjoy your insight on games, systems, etc. Thank you!
thx for watching.
One other quick thought:
I look forward to seeing your summary of the rules, as I am currently slogging thru them. I think there is lots of play goodness buried under the mountain of words. Seeing your stripped mined version would be definitely helpful.
agreed, in fact Id go further and say that there is a GREAT game in here with potential for a superb series. The rule writers need to get out of their own way however.
Don't worry about folks that have different opinions. We are never all going to agree in this hobby and Brant and his ilk won't even listen. I wouldn't be concerned as he's trying to carve out his little meaningless empire. He's in the multi-verse of his own creation. Kev you seem authentic and Brant as you describe him a "bit of a chameleon". I've been playing wargames for 50 years, people come and go. Just ignore him - he is benefiting with added coverage he doesn't deserve. Even with my experience and dedication the A & A game from any publisher is a no go with rules like that. I just don't want to make the effort nor do I have the time. I play ASL - I don't need another one with a volume of rules.
As usual....Kev is on the money. His honesty in the wargaming review world is refreshing. Keeps his reviews of games and designers based on the finished product....not cheap shots to the company or designer. Well done.
my fave fanboi!
You are absolutely right, life is too short. I have to really pick and choose the games to buy and play, so I appreciate your channel to help sort that out for me. Please keep up the good work. To the others, everyone has an opinion.
I started reading the Air & Armor pdf rules on the game website just to see what all the noise was about.
BTW, I'm also learning Portuguese as a second language.
I'm finding that of the two that Portuguese is the easier learn.
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@@war_gamer de nada
very valid points and opinions that have been expressed for many years, by others as well, on wargame releases, who are not entrenched within the grognardo con sphere.
:)
I would drop Facebook in two seconds but I can't because I never signed up.
Respectfully, from one content creator to another, outside of CZcams as a publishing platform, it's never about you Kevin. All the grief comes from them and them alone. A little while longer, as your skin grows a little thicker, you won't care anymore. Carry on I love your channel. Cheers ~ Boomer. 😉👍
Thank dude.
Rule writing and rule books are a pet peeve of mine in this hobby. I've been wanting to do a video on the subject of rule books, and this kerfuffle is giving me even more motivation to do so. Hopefully, I'll get a chance to put something together on the subject before summer is over.
I watched your initial impressions video of the A&A rule book. I didn't see anything that was particularly hateful or deserving of backlash. While I do not own the game, nor have I read the rules for A&A, 146 pages does seem to be excessive for any rule book. I'm sure there are mitigating factors like font size, and graphics (which you mentioned), but 146 pages still seems a bit much. The rule book needed a good editor, as most rule books do. This is a development issue, and I think game development is the area where the hobby is the weakest. None of the publishers (even the big guys like GMT) have the resources required for excellent game development. Writing and editing rules is an art, just like writing novels. They use different skill sets, but in the end they are forms of art. Some have more natural talent than others. And writing rules is a completely different skill than designing games. Many excellent game designers are awful rule writers, hence the need for a developer.
I think there's not just room in this hobby for a healthy discussion on rule books, but a need for one. Hearing from the community of their customers would help game publishers to turn out better products, which will not just grow their bottom line, but also the hobby as a whole.
"Many excellent game designers are awful rule writers, hence the need for a developer." So true.
on point. GMT does a does solid job with developers. They get about 1k-1.5k on higher volume games, usually in kind [free stock].
There is a balancing act. Do we want the slow 5-10yr dev cycle for titles from TCS series which are generally errata lite. OR games pushed out the door, knowing only 500 of 1500 orders will ever be played.
A few weeks ago I posted on Social media asking if Designers ever sought feedback on design.... chrome, best format, detail, designer notes, color palette, maps etc. I had this game, OCS, Red Strike [Well Vuca in general] , MMP, GMT etc.
Where does a designer know WHEN to draw a line.
I met a designer at a con, reviewed a preview of a very detailed system for air-naval in WWII and offered feedback that was ignored. I touched base with publisher and explained my rationale, noting that my approach would allow 3 modules vs 1, more player access, better engagement and higher profit margins.
Now that game has since gone on a back burner, but the multi module approach was taken. - it will cost ME more to get the games, BUT they will ALL be playable.
Right on the money, stick to ya guns Kev!
Like your thoughts on this.
:)
Thanks Kev. Concise transparent prose in a thing to behold. Hope to see some play of A&A. I haven't cracked the rulebook yet. Cheers.
once i get a revised rulebook done myself then yes, it will go back on rotation
While you can be blunt and, dare I say, may occasionally express your citicism in a snide manner, I understand that you are thinking out loud as you read and play. Frustrations can come out in this process, understandably so. I think your criticisms are clear and reasonable. They may not apply to all but you are an experienced gamer and I think your perspectives are worth listening to.
To back up your point about avoiding repetition and getting to the point, I am playing through "The Fate of All" by TRL, a reasonably complex game. The rules are 23 pages for both an operational and tactical game. They focus on what you are allowed to do and I have mostly grok'd the rules and their implementation has been emerging as I play.
yes, I've had my questions on those too, but generally TRL rules are good, written from a European mindset but good. As for snideness, unnecessary criticism or unkind criticism is perception firstly and secondly the expression of my personal frustration. I should do better to be less of a dick about things. Fair point.
Thanks Kev , appreciate the insight . I’ve been trying to get through the rules. I can’t understand why so many spelling errors when you have spellcheck. Minor quip but it makes me think that no one edited this monster rulebook.
I know they rife, as well as run on sentences massively verbose statements... 'to be clear' after 4 cases. Why not be clear once.
We don’t always agree but I love your videos brother. I wish I played as much your a machine :)
I appreciate that. Its a benefit of a free society, of a eclectic group of guys and gals and a plethora of game choices n our niche.
I fauly no man for liking rules as is. Im speaking for me, but also for 'less is more', for true "inclusiveness", and even 1st timer appeal. I think this game gets a 2/10 for all of that.
I KNOW there is a superb game in there. Even Fred Schwarz 1 of the developers said under his tutelage his army nurse wife could learn to play. So it MUST BE EASY and I must be wrong...even a 'nurse can learn it'
So can I have him on site for a few days? :)
YMMV
What Kev is trying to say in the title is, "We can always Build Back Better."
classic
Play what you like, criticize as you see it and suggest through your experience. Rules lawyers and pointless crazy details are up to house rules. I criticized World in Flames because it seems like WWI on the western front in invading France as the Germans. People had a nervous breakdown. The wailing and nashing of teeth was extraordinary. It was hilariously weird.
I never understand how a healthy conversation is bad. The email I got - 1 of a few thankfully was despicable.
I thought your first discussion was just a first impressions kind of video. Which of course can be 'oh man this is huge'. I'm not sure why anyone would be so upset about that. You are, just one guy, in a sea of other wargamers.
exactly. a sad little wargamer rolling his dice in his castle!
All of this happened because you've just expressed your opinion on a game's manual?
Ignore them, stay strong.
To nearly require an inexperienced/newer wargamer to watch 45 how to play videos, print out their own condensed rules and invite the designer over for dinner to teach the game is a failure on so many levels.
One concern I have is if there are problems with the rulebook with spelling, edits, expressions and the like, how will the game itself play out? Are those lapses symptomatic of something that will appear in game play? I'm not sure, but it is a bit off-putting. Compass Games has demonstrated that it cares about components and has upped the quality of its production. Here's hoping the same situation obtains with the rules and presentation.
As to the larger issue of debate and discussion, the reaction to your original video (which was honest, genuine, and insightful as ever) is disconcerting but unfortunately unsurprising. Dialogue is often supplanted by derision (see so much of BGG these days), and attempts to share a view run into some folks who prefer to declaim from the mountain top and shut down others. Honest disagreement is what should make the hobby a better place, but it's increasingly how some people attract attention and therefore traffic. Some folks don't want a community so much as a cult. That's unfortunate.
The game is being made available to people on this side of the world, and my sense is that pre-orders have been quite strong. I'm eager to acquire the game and what you have said about the rules only makes me better informed and even more grateful for your work and commitment to wargaming. Thank you.
Thanks for uploading this. It's an important debate. I don't know this game (and won't buy it, on the strength of your all too plausible critique). I have 'A Time for Trumpets', which I gave up on. Such a shame, as that game is a solid design, brilliantly researched, wonderful components, but...
Life's too short.
I hope Compass, GMT etc take note.
Andrew
Who's Brant?
A guy with a site going along to get along, in the eager hope he gets more more than 2.24 cents a month revenue... Thus he shall remain nameless, as he cant even have a conversation. Suffice to say he has thrown in with the 'change the wargame hobby' to be 'not wargames movement, small and insignificant as it is. - TLDR: smalltime drama queens