African Cichlids - How Water Temperature Affects Their Behaviour

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  • čas přidán 5. 07. 2024
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    In this video I share my thoughts on how water temperature can and will affect African Cichlid behaviour in regards to warmer water increasing aggression and breeding as supposed to cooler water reducing aggression but will also reduce breeding behaviour.
    The tips I mention in the video regarding increasing or lowering your water temperature should be taken very seriously and should only be attempted if you're 100% sure and have done extensive research beforehand. If you do attempt this PLEASE do it slowly via small increments over a long period of time - MONITOR your fish closely.
    I keep my water temp at 24c - 75F after many years of trail and error.
    I hope you found the video useful.
    Take care
    - Marc
    Equipment;
    Tank: 600L NDAquatics
    Light unit: iQuatics Aqualumi Series 2 5ft T5 80W
    Bulbs: 1 x Antinic 1 x 50/50 1 x tropical 3 x marine white
    Filtration: 1 x 2000lph EF+ Allpondsolutions
    1 x 1400lph EF+ Allpondsolutions
    Heaters: 2 x 300w iQuatics AquaRad LED heater
    Wavemaker: 1 x 6000lph Allpondsolutions
    Substrate: Sand with 1-3mm crushed coral sand
    Rocks: 130kg-150kg of Weathered Sand Stone
    WC = Wild Caught
    F1 = From Wild Caught
    TB = Tank Breed
    Stock List;
    Pseudotropheus Saulosi x 15 + loads of fry
    Labidochromis sp. "Hongi" 1m - 2f +fry
    Labeotropheus Fuelleborni (OB) 1m - 4f
    F1 Cynotilapia Afra Ndonga 1m - 1f
    Metriaclima Estherae (Red) 1m - 1f
    Cynotilapia sp. "hara" Gallireya Reef
    WC Pseudotropheus Minutus Mbowe 1m - 2f (Loads of fry in the tank)
    Metriaclima Lanisticola 1m x 2f
    WC Cynotilapia Afra Manda 1m - 1f
    african cichlids tank temperature
    african cichlids water temperature
    best water temperature for african cichlids
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    How to reduce African Cichlid Agression
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    Reducing Cichlid Aggression in your aquarium
    How to Calm the Aggression of African Cichlids
    Reducing Aggression in Cichlids
    Peaceful african cichlid tank
    How to prevent african cichlid aggression
    how to stop african cichlid bullying

Komentáře • 180

  • @Boywithafishtank
    @Boywithafishtank Před 10 lety

    Great video Marc! I really like that you are talking about topics that are important, but are often lacked in this hobby. Fantastic info :)

  • @masterporras88
    @masterporras88 Před 8 lety

    Hi there, thanks a lot for advising I was so confused about their behavior and never imagined that it was because of the temperature. I really hope you are still uploading videos!

  • @AfricanCichlidHub
    @AfricanCichlidHub  Před 10 lety +14

    Trying to reply to everyone's comments. Bare with me. Thanks for watching. And thank you for supporting my videos. It means a lot and keeps me motivated to make more!

  • @Tropic.Skincare1
    @Tropic.Skincare1 Před 9 lety

    This is fantastic. I have been looking into setting up a cichlid aquarium for a while now and finding it difficult to find out information as I have never kept them before. These videos are great, thanks for taking the time to make and upload them.

  • @diamond4829
    @diamond4829 Před 5 lety

    Exactly what I was looking for ...... your my hero for the week .... thanks for the info !!

  • @Bandicoot1936
    @Bandicoot1936 Před 10 lety

    good info marc. tank looks awesome as it always does.

  • @robertwelsh6878
    @robertwelsh6878 Před 10 lety

    Great video as always u got me into malawi I watched your setting up a mbuna tank about ten times lol keep up the gd work

  • @joshthomas7002
    @joshthomas7002 Před 10 lety

    enjoy watching your videos, gain a lot of information from you, great setup. cheers.

  • @KMANWEBER
    @KMANWEBER Před 10 lety

    Right on. Lowered temp a few years ago...no more than 74 degrees Fahrenheit. Much more docile tank with much reduced breeding behavior. This is great advice!! Worked great for me. Other thing that made my system much better is the litermeter water change system. Expensive but absolutely 100% worth every penny.

  • @JSpalding
    @JSpalding Před 10 lety +1

    Excellent info as always Marc.

  • @AaronsAquarium
    @AaronsAquarium Před 10 lety +1

    Great video. I have just started African Cichlids and you are my oracle. Discus are my thing really but I'm finding African Cichlids a lot of fun to watch.

    • @AfricanCichlidHub
      @AfricanCichlidHub  Před 10 lety

      I'm just glad I can help out beginners like yourself. I wish you luck on your African Cichlid journey Aaron.

    • @AaronsAquarium
      @AaronsAquarium Před 10 lety

      Thank you pal. I'm doing a series at the moment called Welcome to the family check it out and let me know it you fancy taking part. I understand you have a busy schedule so don't worry if you can't.

  • @gregoir
    @gregoir Před 10 lety

    Another great on. much needed info.!

  • @gerardgaddi6929
    @gerardgaddi6929 Před 8 lety +3

    Watching your fish is so relaxing I almost dozed off. Haha! And that's a compliment!

  • @Les-OZZYTHEOSCAR
    @Les-OZZYTHEOSCAR Před 10 lety +2

    Very interesting bit of information there Marc, not ever heard that mentioned before at keeping them at a less aggressive level. Good bit of info !!! :)

    • @AfricanCichlidHub
      @AfricanCichlidHub  Před 10 lety +1

      It's something not many AC keepers know about or have ever tried. Thanks for the feedback.

  • @chrisreck2370
    @chrisreck2370 Před 10 lety

    Nice one marc, I tried this myself a while ago and noticed more docile behaviour at 24° and I still get breeding at this temperature, much calmer than at 26° like

  • @vnce932
    @vnce932 Před 5 lety

    Im new to cichlid world! Very helpful tip worth watching! Subscribed!

  • @shortygoodwin7498
    @shortygoodwin7498 Před 6 lety

    Great videos! Great help!

  • @garykoseba617
    @garykoseba617 Před 8 lety

    great tips! I just subbed your channel

  • @brionengmann6311
    @brionengmann6311 Před 7 lety

    Brilliant mate
    I am in Oz and the weather can change to pretty hot around here but I do keep my tank at around 23C degree which seems to have the fish pretty happy in our warmer months I have to add cold water to maintain the temperature
    Great video

  • @DramaticAquatics
    @DramaticAquatics Před 7 lety

    great video man!!

  • @nerozero738
    @nerozero738 Před 8 lety

    Nice video. I keep my tank running at 78 and haven't had any aggression issues as of yet hoping I wont. Just got my first UV stabilizer , I own smaller cichlids but plan to get a nice 100 gallon and 75 gallon within the next 6 months

  • @holdingheatkennelsdavidhun9594

    Nice video marc great tips for water temperature

  • @ivoryqueen7000
    @ivoryqueen7000 Před 9 lety

    Enjoyed ur video. Thanks for the info.

  • @briansfishtanks
    @briansfishtanks Před 10 lety

    Great information Marc!

  • @pizzaroo1234
    @pizzaroo1234 Před 10 lety +1

    Thx a lot Mark , I apreciate ur work and dedication , thx for sharing !!!!

  • @pelphrey
    @pelphrey Před 10 lety

    Great video! Thanks!

  • @crocket147
    @crocket147 Před 6 lety

    Found this out on my own so i definitely agree.

  • @peterlecoutier9599
    @peterlecoutier9599 Před 10 lety +4

    African Cichlid Hub great tip man

  • @kelvinharrison74
    @kelvinharrison74 Před 6 lety

    Sorry, I just read everything in your video description. Thanks so much for the info.

  • @Elliekuin
    @Elliekuin Před 8 lety

    Very useful, thank you very much!

  • @traysmith2587
    @traysmith2587 Před 10 lety +1

    Good information...... your tank is looking awesome!!

  • @kelvinharrison74
    @kelvinharrison74 Před 6 lety

    Man, your tank is just absolutely beautiful!!! Where can I find those kind of rocks?

  • @RealJakeAaron
    @RealJakeAaron Před 5 lety

    Helpful thank you! 😊

  • @Lawrence5762
    @Lawrence5762 Před 10 lety

    Marc, I love your work! How universally true is this temperature trick? Do you know if new world cichlids or even fish from Southeast Asia respond the same way?

  • @ChannelE2016
    @ChannelE2016 Před 10 lety

    Great Video, I've just setup my Mbuna tank, one of my light blue cichlids, (cannot remember the scientific names but its on my latest post if you have time to check) have gone from light powder/baby blue to a really dark blue, is this just because it is a male/dominant or is there something wrong with him? Also do you recommend using seachem CIchlid salts? Thanks!

  • @kg2nc
    @kg2nc Před 10 lety

    Nice video man your fish look awesome. Thanks for sharing.

  • @MbunaMarcus
    @MbunaMarcus Před 10 lety

    Great video...very informative :)

  • @korle521
    @korle521 Před 9 lety +1

    What about ick? I understand that turning the temperature up can speed the ick life cycle. What do you recommend with ick and cichlids. And if you have a video on it already il look. Just curious. Thank you.

  • @SemihydroponicswithSma

    Hello, just find your channel. I have 2 boold parrots cichlids, and i have got a lot of mix info...are they classed in the african cichlids? This is probably a stupid question, but i just got in to fishes...i don't know what temperature should i keep them in or how much should i feed them,...any help will be highly appreciated😊 thank you

  • @CypressPhotoStudio
    @CypressPhotoStudio Před 10 lety +2

    Very good !

  • @johnrusso7396
    @johnrusso7396 Před 10 lety +1

    What kind of sand is in your tank? Btw your awesome, subbed!

  • @tsaicio
    @tsaicio Před 3 lety

    Sounds reasonable. I will keep it in mind.

  • @batmanakabruce
    @batmanakabruce Před 10 lety

    thank you this was informative, i was wondering why my cichlids weren't eating all the food i put in there, also the placo (the tank is getting dirty) i want to warm it up but all i have is a ten gallon starter, are there any tips that you can give me on diy heating? maybe do warmer water changes every couple days of about a half gallon each? the tank was getting to 75 degrees ferenheit because that was the room temp with central air on.

  • @casachristiana
    @casachristiana Před 9 lety

    Hello. Any ideas for a 200 litre tank setup. I've kept tropicals in the past but setting this tank up from scratch. I'm in Italy by the way but English so you know for temperature considerations. Cichlids? or tropicals again? Thanks for the advice

  • @darnettda
    @darnettda Před 10 lety +2

    Great vid and some very good tips. Enjoyed it very much. Thanks for throwing in Fahrenheit. :) lol

  • @michaelross1386
    @michaelross1386 Před 6 lety

    A very informative and interesting video. However, I am a beginner, starting relatively at the beginning. Have a 130litre tank and at the moment only some Gold Harlequin Rasboras happily swimming around. The temperature I have set at 25 o C. However, after constantly looking at all sorts of species of fish, would really like a Cichlid as my feature fish. So, my questions are, which of the Cichlids could you recommend that are the most peaceful, hardy and low temperature tolerant, that could suit well in an establishing community fish tank. And lastly, I realise it depends on the numbers of other fish, how many ciclids would suit a tank of 130 litres? Thank you, Michael

  • @robmagz
    @robmagz Před 5 lety

    Greattt video!!.. Should I keep my American cichlid tank possibly at 75 degrees just like your African tank ???

  • @metalhead9656
    @metalhead9656 Před 6 lety

    Alright mate I'm from Ireland and I'm new to the hobby. I'm wondering when you do a water change from tap water I presume, how do you get the temp of water the same to you're tank before you put tap water in

  • @NickMach007
    @NickMach007 Před 10 lety +1

    Good tips.

  • @DAVEK1234
    @DAVEK1234 Před 10 lety

    great video ,very informative

  • @AliMohamed-jg6bv
    @AliMohamed-jg6bv Před 7 lety

    dear friend,
    q1: when chosing a chiller, do i Calculate the total amount of the sump and tank or only tank?
    my tank volume: 550 gallon
    my sump 250 gallon
    so when i consider a chiller ill chose one suitable for 800 gallon or more? or should i calculate the amount of return water like:
    800 x 6 = 4800 gallon? so ill chose one for 4800 gallon and above?
    which number should i go with? I'm confused a bit here 800 gallon or 4800 gallon?
    thanks

  • @IttzZapp
    @IttzZapp Před 7 lety

    Currently holding my tank at 80F. When i move in to the summer should i lower the heat when it begins to get hot? Where i live in the summer it gets about 100-115F.

  • @keithhumphrey8372
    @keithhumphrey8372 Před 4 lety

    What temperature should I keep convicts at in the winter time

  • @tanktv7657
    @tanktv7657 Před 8 lety

    Great Video

  • @zeeshanbaloch6516
    @zeeshanbaloch6516 Před 4 lety

    I added Snowhite Cichlids in my tank and found most of them gathering at the top just above Water Filter. Also they don't seem to eat staple food. Any advice?

  • @SonicsDC25
    @SonicsDC25 Před 10 lety

    Great video Marc, it's been getting warmer over here in the states, so maybe it's a reason why the tank is getting warmer as well and there's a tad more aggression. Thanks for the tips :)

  • @MrSolarsphinx
    @MrSolarsphinx Před 4 lety

    I noticed my water was super warm the other day, almost like bath water so i immediately turned both heaters way down and all my fish huddled together in a cave and were acting sick so i raised it back up and now they're swimming around happy as can be... i definitely needed to adjust it slower.

  • @edlangerson8407
    @edlangerson8407 Před 4 lety

    New subscriber....I'm in Glasgow and the water is very soft, I want to set up a cichlid aquarium to go along with my other community tank..any water tips..or new tank set up....cheers...

  • @bctaxidermy
    @bctaxidermy Před 5 lety

    What is the white coloured one in there? I’m trying to correctly ID a couple I have like that.

  • @mandydavis3737
    @mandydavis3737 Před 7 lety

    Hi - I have just found your channel - AWESOME. I have had Chiclids for many years (I live in Australia). Its interesting the temperatures you advise - and frequenting the UK I understand the climate differences. I have found if I have my temp up just between 27 & 28c - that it alleviates 'white spot', but lately (despite the temps) I have had some troubles. I have treated my tank with Pimafix.... Sadly I lost one fish & another is bouncing between recovery & getting fungus again..... Tonight I have done yet another tank clean, and have put in a new heater - as I believe the last one was a bit 'dodgey'. What are your solutions for 'white spot fungus'?? Im not worried about calm or aggression, I just want my water babies to be well... Thanks again - your videos are great! :-)

  • @gewglesux
    @gewglesux Před 9 lety

    I keep mine @79 F. I will try lowering the temp and see how they react. I think you are spot on about the way higher temps effect the fish.
    My Guys get fed once a day and in the morning when it's feeding time they are like little Piranhas!

  • @zackarybillington4492
    @zackarybillington4492 Před 9 lety

    Will a higher or lower temp effect the growth rate of the fish?

  • @TheAngryFishman
    @TheAngryFishman Před 10 lety

    Great vid!

  • @mangalina1
    @mangalina1 Před 9 lety

    What type of cichlid do you have in your tank and how many do you think i can have in a 125 liter?

  • @stevenmills1820
    @stevenmills1820 Před 5 lety

    I’m from the uk n have demonsoni my tank is at 26 degrees c is this ok? Cheers

  • @antoniomartin2570
    @antoniomartin2570 Před 6 lety

    What is a good type of food to feed cichlids?

  • @Frank-pe9pk
    @Frank-pe9pk Před 7 měsíci

    I have small outdoor pond with a long stream in central Florida. I keep my in-line heater set at 74 to take chill away during cool days. Ground temperature usually stays around 70-75 so heater doesn’t run too often. Heated pond and stream also helps keep my tropical plants happy.

    • @SmokeNGunsBBQ
      @SmokeNGunsBBQ Před 6 měsíci

      Consider plugging it into a temp controller for a redundant safety.

  • @jonathanturek5846
    @jonathanturek5846 Před 2 lety

    Thanks. I am a longtime aquariast. I had over 40 tanks on the north shore hawaii. I buy all my basic equipment used and have a trick to stock my tanks. In Hawaii Kai there are docks everywhere. The coral builds up on them and weights them down. Everyone has to break it off every once in a while or the weight of it will cause problems. I would never ever harvest coral in the wild as its against my beliefs. But the only exception I made was for the coral growing on the floating docks that will get broken off by dockowner eventually. I cut out a perfect rectangle for the back of tank and use it for a backdrop. After a few weeks all the baby creatures living in the coral start to mature and coming out of hiding. You won't believe the crazy species that would just appear in my tanks. Amazing invertebrates shrimp and crabs. I just told everyone my best secret for free and exciting tank inhabitants ! Haha. Anyways I live in Tahoe and setup tank in summer. I never put in either of heaters and rely on my house temp to regulate water temp. I think my temp gage broken because it still says 72-75 ish degrees. But I did notice the violence has toned down alot as winter came. I noticed my cichs have ultraviolet type markings on their tails ? Can they see ultraviolet ? Like many is crab ? Why would they have these hyper colors if not. Their either 2 or 3 dots
    ? Is this the sex of fish ? Is that how u tell male n female ? Thanks dude. I pass on. Some of my knowledge in saltwater for some questions I have about fresh
    I haven't had a fresh water tank ( other than feeder tanks of guppies ) Since the 80s

  • @zivziv1987
    @zivziv1987 Před 8 lety

    Thank you so much

  • @87jonah
    @87jonah Před 10 lety

    hi i have a few hybrids born in my tank.. I dont want to keep them nor do I want to sell them im wondering if there is a way I can humanely cull them.. as its not their fault they have been born.. yellow lab red zebra hybrid...

  • @barbiegirl7701
    @barbiegirl7701 Před 4 lety

    This is such a relief because my ac is set to 73 any warmer and I’d be unable to sleep from being hot and that makes their tank 75-76 which is perfect. Can you tell me why they are so timid and always hiding tho? I got them a week ago and I planted their tank gave plenty of spots to play and hide I only have two half in ones in a 5.5

  • @peterlecoutier9599
    @peterlecoutier9599 Před 10 lety

    African Cichlid Hub if you have the heat a lot warmer you said it speeds up the metabolism does that mean they grow quick. There fore is the water is colder they will grow a lot slower ?

  • @jenniferm234
    @jenniferm234 Před 9 lety

    at 1:28, what is the fish that is white with black stripes called? It is gorgeous!!!

  • @afvf501
    @afvf501 Před 10 lety +1

    Thx for this great tip, I will try it , my temp now is 27C, so what do you think about lowering it with 1 degree /month untill I get a temp of 25 C?
    Best regards Anders

  • @SiCDesigns
    @SiCDesigns Před 9 lety

    How long did it take for your fish to get that big O.o ? I feel like mine grow so slow.

  • @dansufor5856
    @dansufor5856 Před 4 lety +1

    I always heard tropicals have better immune systems at 80 as opposed to 75. What's your take

  • @42no
    @42no Před 9 lety

    I have clown loach and black gohst knife fishes was wondering if you could answer some questions I had I just got my aquarium last Sunday I'm new to all of this

  • @justinstuart8382
    @justinstuart8382 Před 10 lety

    Do you only have the one tank or somethin?

  • @afishindabox
    @afishindabox Před 10 lety +2

    Hey a quick dumb question: How come your blue fishes are "so blue colored". I have 3 Hongi mbuna and 3 mbuna that look like demasoni (they aren't, but both male and female are blue with black stripes) and none of the 6 fishes are so blue colored as yours. They aren't fully grown yet, but they are still more dark than actual blue?
    (The other 4 yellow labs and the 3 red mbunas (also forgot the names) are in perfect color tho.

  • @TheDjspin57
    @TheDjspin57 Před 2 lety

    How u get that lighting effect

  • @day2day734
    @day2day734 Před 10 lety +2

    Ive considered this with my haps and peacocks, though they're aggressive by nature and all males doesn't help. I may consider it. Great vid

  • @ayshaalrashed4849
    @ayshaalrashed4849 Před 8 lety

    i have one afra (white top) + one caeruleus yellow +one melanochromis + two estherae + one venustus + one elongatus + 2 parrots .."" in 40 US gallons ""
    I'm new with African Cichlid and someone told me the best temperature for this kind of fish between 29 to 34 C and now I'm SHOCKED :|
    i always keep it between 28 to 31 C, should i decrease it ???
    they are in good health and they are growing up but these days they always fighting with each other

  • @topanimiescartoonsandcarto215

    thanks

  • @addysadventures1058
    @addysadventures1058 Před 3 lety

    Why are all of my cichlids dying? We moved the 75 gal tank from the garage and brought it inside. The temp stays around 80 (is that too high?), we do weekly water changes and everything.. they were doing great in the garage but it’s starting to get really cold and the heater wasn’t able to keep up and the tank was getting cold. We’ve lost 6 fish total since we brought it inside... the only Cichlid left is my OB Peacock that we moved back to the garage and put him into the isolation tank and he’s doing great again. We moved him there because he got ich, we treated the Cichlid tank and lost 3 more fish since.. none of the fish who died showed signs of a disease, they were just dead... the only thing left in the big tank inside is a 6” pleco and a 2” rainbow shark, they’re doing great.

  • @HotRodJax
    @HotRodJax Před 8 lety

    what are those? Johanni's or Demasoni's

  • @lusean193
    @lusean193 Před 3 lety

    Are you still doing the vids

  • @ParadiddleAd7x
    @ParadiddleAd7x Před 10 lety

    You should do a video about how to get the best colour out of cichlids

  • @francois-xavierguidon2874

    what kind of light you're using to have this deep water efect?

  • @dinoweld4life
    @dinoweld4life Před 10 lety

    Very interesting thanks for the information going to put it to good use

  • @edlangerson8407
    @edlangerson8407 Před 4 lety

    Your aquarium is beautiful..

  • @dribbleking00
    @dribbleking00 Před 10 lety +1

    great job Dude thanks for that advice!

  • @richardwebb9532
    @richardwebb9532 Před 3 lety

    Why would you adjust temp for seasonal changes? 24c is 24c regardless what the season is, even if your ambient temp is higher than 24c, adjusting temp would not reduce the temp of your tank.

  • @yezrr
    @yezrr Před 10 lety

    Hi. I have an African Cichlid Tank myself. I currently have 7 Cichlids. one is a Jack Dempsey. They are all Juveniles at the moment and yes, I am monitoring the Dempsey' behavior. He gets along very well with all the Africans. If his behavior remains as calm as it is now ill keep him in. If he gets mean I'll take him out. My question is, if I leave him in(because I know they get big) how many cichlids are too many? And if I take him out how many? I don't want to crowd the Tank and cause stress. It is a 75gal.

    • @devlsadvo
      @devlsadvo Před rokem +1

      Get the Jack Dempsey out of the tank and put him in his own 75 because you’ll need it, Jacks can be quite aggressive on their own but Mbuna’s are even more aggressive not to mention they both require different water parameters , Mbuna’s need a higher PH. After that you can get more Africans , I have 17 Mbuna’s in a 75 right now but am upgrading that to a 125 so I’m going to have some more room for more Mbuna family members. The Dempsey, find a better tank mate for him. There’s quite a few South America cichlids that he could coexist with like Severum cichlids or Angelfish, Firemouth cichlids or Acara’s are another good choice. Either way keep the Africans with Africans and the Central & South American’s with their kind. Just what my research has taught me. Cheer’s

  • @UrbanYakuza
    @UrbanYakuza Před 9 lety

    Great video. Can you tel me if it's good or bad to have to much oxygen from bubblers and diffusers in a mixed cichlid tank?

  • @JPhil1961
    @JPhil1961 Před 3 lety

    I have orange mbuna started with 2. We now have 20 give or take a few. She’s had 5 batches of babies. I’ve never separated them. I just leave em alone. Seeing her release them from her mouth was a wild sight when we had no idea that this was happening. Water temp stays 78 f .

  • @thelostjournalofmystifying354

    my cichlids are a lot calmer now that i lowered the temperature a bit . the higher temperatures were driving my chichlids crazy . People don't realize that cichlids dwell at the lower depths and lounge in shady areas , they aren't constantly exposed to the heat . lower temperature is much lower than surface temperature of water

  • @dogdogtv21
    @dogdogtv21 Před 8 lety

    I like the idea of 24*c best compromise and I don't want to encourage breading as in the past my Guppies went mental and I could not give them away x.

  • @lusean193
    @lusean193 Před 3 lety

    Are you not doing vids anymore ?

  • @seehearspeaknoevil5090
    @seehearspeaknoevil5090 Před 6 lety +1

    Butt your chances of getting ick a greater at lowe temps

  • @datauk64
    @datauk64 Před 8 lety

    what Temperature should i keep my malawi fishes mine is set at 28 c
    is that too hot

    • @richardwinterton3519
      @richardwinterton3519 Před 8 lety

      +datauk64
      I keep mine at 25 degrees C and they're happy at that temp.
      28 does seem a little high...