That electronic sound when the numbers first came up frightened a fart out of me. I was only partially paying attention but the ZZZZZZ sound woke me up!
@@WildTouring Hello Cheers for sharing the knowledge its hard to come by with this topic. Ive just basically destroyed 1000$ worth of kings gear due to reverse on the battery terminals, but i did manage to learn a bit in the process.( that battery never was right and sent me mad trying to figure it out) But i taught me what i already knew, to not buy garbage it will cost more in the future, tho Im happy it wasnt a expensive set up i destroyed. So thats the good i can take from it. I have so much to learn on a modest budget. Can i ask what battery would you recommend i get to power a caravan/cabin for one people, be just me. Im looking at the ATG 2x 150 or the 200 ah, whats your thoughts on that. I have the Victron smart shunt , all my panels 3x160w, breakers and fuses , some 2 and 4 awg wire , lugs and a cheap crimper. from Ebay When i figure what battery i want i can then get the victron MPPT and charger to suit . Would really appreciate any help you can give me. Cheers.
What i have picked up on is that most of the cheap ebay battery are only good for 80% of discharge, combined with a cheap mppt that gives me just over half of the batteries captivity 80-80 ( probs used cells that will never fully charge either way 🤷) Am I right in looking for a battery that can , if i choose to, use 100% of its captivity that I can change if thats what I choose to do. I believe a a victron Mppt will allow this. This is what im thinking after months of reshearch and reading, Is this correct. Sorry for the babble, but cheers to the beers.
If you're spending the money on a lithium upgrade, I'd also recommend installing a smart shunt like a victron BMV-712 so you can always check the battery state of charge accurately and see if your charger system is working as you expect. You can't just look at a voltage gauge anymore.
I got suspicious when a guy at work was telling me Itechworld in WA claim their batteries can be charged by normal lead acid charger. I did a bit of research and changed out the AC charger in the van to a Victron unit when I installed my Lithiums. Itechworld's web site FAQs "I have a non-lithium profile charger; will it work with your battery? 99% of all non-lithium profile chargers are compatible with iTechworld lithium batteries, the only chargers that may not be compatible are chargers that are specifically designed to charge calcium batteries. Non lithium profile solar controllers and non-lithium profile DCDC chargers are also compatible with iTechworld batteries. The battery will charge to 98%-100% when using non lithium profiles. Using a non-lithium profile charger will not shorten the lifespan of an iTechworld battery, we warrant our batteries for use with non-lithium profiles. What non-lithium charging profile should I set my charger to? If the charger has a lithium profile; it should always be used ahead of all other charging profiles. If the charger does not have a lithium profile you can use AGM and GEL as iTechworld lithium batteries can accept charge from those type of profiles."
When I built my van, 2005- 2007, my 12v system was 2 ,260 AMP HR, Full River batteries, 90 kg , each, 1 solar panel, 45 AMP, charger, Batteries lasted 12 yrs, Now have 2, 270 amp hrs, AGM, Super charge Batteries, 71 kg each, nearly 5 yr old, Still going strong, Read about drop in lithium, glad I watched your advice, Gives me something to think about, All my caravan is 12 v, If AGM,s last a few more yrs , cost wise I will be using them again, Thanks for your input, Cheers Bevan
Great episode Cam and as always incredible delivery. Got to love marketing spin and a sales pitch. Nice little set-up for your folks to trip around in. Cheers 🍺
Spot on. I’ve wondered how many battery sellers get away with claiming this. I learnt all about this in my solar storage course. About time someone has spoken up about this Cam. Another myth is that draining lithium down to 0volts when flat. It will only shut off at the volts predetermined by the bms. Good video.
Good info thanks Cam. I've wondered if some of the fire incidents we're hearing about relating to lithium batteries are from using an incorrect charger? It's inevitable there will be some oops moments as we transition to lithium technology. Just a heads up for anyone with a Redarc BCDC 1225D or 1240D in car charger (many will have these set ups installed by ARB). The wiring connection needs to be reconfigured when swapping from an AGM to lithium battery. Details are available on line - read the instructions!
Cheers mate! There’s definitely the risk of a fire with any battery system. But I honestly think a lot of the fire stories you hear about are crap! Bit of fear mongering going off the back of stability issues with other lithium battery chemistry (specifically lithium ion). But I’m sure overcharging, lower grade cells and a cheap bms don’t help the chances of malfunction! Yeah you’re bang on about the redarcs! 👍🏼
@@WildTouring - Fires which are verified seem to not be the battery (at least not with the LFP - intrinsically safe ish- installs I have heard of) but the Electrical components, wire gauge, quality of crimps etc. (Between the shed and car I have 1000Ah of 12v (4S) LFP, I also have (and have had) white a few "LiPo" batteries used in RC aircraft (and "drones"" ) - a few puffed cells (even one sitting inside a concrete block containment for the last few years - that is a 6S 5AH Nanotec LiPo with the most negative cell severely puffed and measuring zero volts ), never once a fire - on the battery side.
Thanks Cam for keeping us educated - I’ve opted for an Amptron Lithium 100ah battery with Redarc charger to accomodate solar as well - I expect a few lithium fires may have started with dodgy marketing advice for replacing existing Lead Acid setups - good work helping out your folks too
Good info! I've got the opposite scenario of a lithium AC charger and AGM batteries. The batteries are cheap/questionable no name quality AGM's that came with the camper from new. I requested the lithium AC charger for a near future plan of replacing the AGM batteries. When we purchased the camper I expected them to fail quickly compared to other reputable brands. I've found running the charger in power supply mode or float charge mode (13.8v) effectively trickle charges the batteries and they seem happy in doing so over the past 7mths of constant use. As you mentioned lithiums bulk charge quite aggressively so keeping that in mind I don't use the proper charge mode unless they have been floating at 13.8v for a period of days and I want to quickly top them off to 14.4v before heading away etc. - The charger usually kicks straight into the final absorption stage from 13.8v and tops them up to full within an hour or two. Theory is it's less shock on the batteries to go from 13.8v float voltage to 14.4v than it is from 12.5v to 14.4v. Otherwise they bulk charge harder and longer than I'm comfortable with.
Nice one Cam! I switch from a standard wet lead acid to a lithium, but I have a Victron and switched the profile. It's so important to get those parameters right for a good charge!
The part where you mentioned the reluctance of some to get involved with someone else's work ,I agree. Many times, I have walked away from a botch job. The response from the customer can be vicious when you tell them it's company policy not to get involved.
Great video. As a sparky, it drives me crazy the number of customers telling me that the battery salesman says, "She'll be right." It's very misleading the "drop in replacement " sales pitch. One other thing I'd like to add to your video is that the float stage on most SLA battery chargers will produce a small current. Lifepo4 don't like a current put into them at full SOC. This will also shorten the life of your lithium battery. Keep up the great content.
that was a great explanation of the differences between the 2 types of battery systems and I will be showing this to friends that seem to think it is ok for standard agm chargers to charge lithium well done cheers
very good vid Cam, I likewise, have had this discussion with people wanting to upgrade. But let me enlighten your followers to another similar situation that can lead to expensive tow tug repairs. Some camper trailer sellers offer Lithium battery/s in their camper but these are NOT fitted with a DCDC Lithium charger. This is a major problem when connecting to the older style VCR dual battery systems in many tow vehicles. Because lithium batteries can draw huge charge currents, these currents can destroy alternators and wiring (if undersized) and cause vehicle fires....so insist on a trailer installed DCDC Lithium charger before taking delivery of your camper that is fitted with Lithium battery....Keep up the good work bro....Cheers
Noticed this on a mates 100k van 😳 Huge amount of voltage drop causing current to increase and he couldn’t work out why he kept blowing the inline fuse. 🤯 blew my mind that they would not have a dcdc charger in the van!
I feel like this video has come at perfect time this was an arguement on 12v 4x4 page the other day. People talking about itech like they had built in chagers lol
Good video to make. I'll give a few points.... Many people have been fooled into think the "drop in batteries" have current and voltage limiting circuits.... And that's clearly wrong! Good you mentioned that. People make too big a deal about charging profile for Li batteries. They don't really care how the current is delivered (most cells are rated for >0.5C charge if not 1C)... But the BMS input MOSFETs are often less than that. The important point is to stop charging once it's full. Again, 14V is a better charge voltage, as thats 99% capability. In your parents case.... You could put an Anderson plug on the 240V charger and feed that into the Dcdc converter .... The rare times that's required. I have an old ctek battery charger that has a constant voltage mode of 13.8V. I use that to charge my Li batteries
Cheers Chris, funny you mention that. I was wondering how the enerdrive would go with the existing AC charger coming into channel 3. On paper it’s still within the voltages the enerdrive can handle. Was gonna ask my auto sparky 🤷♂️
@@WildTouring Was also wondering this, just put a lithium into my 4wd which has a lithium compatible dcdc (renogy) and a victron mppt for normal charging duties. I do like to put the car on the 240v charger before trips and havn't bought a charger yet for this purpose. Have just put a 370w solar panel on the roof so not sure i'll ever need to now, need to wire that up and see if im ever going to need 240v charging again, I suspect not.
@@bradleymarshall5591 I reckon Ac charger may not turn on without seeing a battery voltage. If you want to do something like that what you can do is put the ac charger on the cranking battery, itll charge it & turn the dcdc on to charge your aux battery too. Not the perfect scenario but itll get the job done.
I just checked my 240v multi stage charger which has GEL(14.1V) / AGM(14.4V) / WET(14.7V) and found in the manual the wet mode goes to 16.0V in Recondition stage. AGM mode stays at 14.4V. And the battery specs say to charge at 14.4 - 14.7v so AGM mode on my particular charger (Projecta IC2500W) should be fine. Thanks for the thought provoking video to make me check.
Get a Lithium profile AC to DC charger. The only "drop-in" replacement I have seen is one for the cranking battery. iTech does one and going by their blurb they are the only one. They have a inbuilt charger that is suitable to work with the alternator output. Other brands need a separate charge controller.
Almost any lithium battery will accept straight alternator output voltage. And function okay for a period. But not one reputable brand would ever recommend it for all the reasons mentioned in this video.
I'm surprised most older chargers don't have a lithium profile? I mean they have been around for a while. I got a cheapo portable solar panel with a MPPT charger from amazon and even that had separate charging profiles for AGM/Lithum. Anyways is there a video on changing a LA charger for a Lithium charger and can you usually keep the same cables?
Any recommendations on a affordable wall charger for a 100ah battery? i don't care if it takes 24 hours to charge only going to be using it 2-3 times a yea, informative video none the less, cheers.
Not ideal practice but could you reuse your non lithium 240v AC charger and charge your starter battery to indirectly charge your lithium battery? That way your Dcdc charger will regulate and supply the current lithium charging algorithm. I’m in the same situation, non lithium 240v 25A AC charger, 25A DC DC charger with lithium profile. AGM battery but looking to upgrade to a lithium battery.
But look at the 8s , 24 volt lifepo4. its the same perimeters, as lead acid 24 volts. 4s, and 36s and 48s do not match at all, but 8s is the same. I have an older 15,000 watt UPS/ATS inverter /WITH A 60 AMP charger. It only has settings for lead types. An actual pot you need to turn with a tiny screw driver. It's a great lead acid charger. The last 4, 110 amp hour deep cycle batteries FROM WALMART, were still working good when I sold them for $50 each 6 YEARS LATER. These Sealed lead acid had air tight caps you could unscrew to check and refill the water. The lowest voltage setting, I think it is for the GEL perimeters, are basically the same needed to keep lifepo4 up and ready. I've heard it explained that lifpo4 does not care if a trickle charge exist, mostly because they won't trigger it much because they hold a charge. It works just like small UPS people use for their home computers for an uninterrupted power supply. I've had 2, 100 amp hour 8S lifepo4 batteries connected to that inverter charger , for a good 5 years or so and the cells look good. The only problem I have, is due to unmatched cells. But some 10 amp active balancers helped that situation. The "cycling" pack charge shutdowns, are from unbalanced cells and unmatched cell capacities that charge and discharge at different rates. A lithium charger will do the same thing.. I just paid extra for some new ,tested and matched 300 Ah cells and those work perfect on that 24 volt, 60 amp charger, UPS ,ATS. Huge difference in the end charge cycling. This is none.
I've heard that when buying and before installing a lithium battery, the cells need to be averaged out by discharging, then recharging the battery with a dedicated lithium 240v charger. Would that be right? Once again, a good video, Cam. Cheers.
That certainly cleared a few urban myths Some manufacturers offer drop in lithium for starter batteries The problem arises when you have a dc/dc charger which are all designed for lead acid starter batteries They all isolate the starter battery at 12.7 volts which is ok for lead acid but dead flat for lithium installing a smart battery protect solves the problem however they can’t handle temps over 60 degrees which is no good under the bonnet
@@bradleymarshall5591 Totally agree. There is nothing currently available on the market that I’d spend my hard earned on to cook under a bonnet. And their warranty periods reflect the confidence the battery sellers have in them!
@@WildTouring What sort of warranty do they offer? Not many manufacturers offer more than 2 years that i've seen. Not meant to fit AGM's under the bonnet but ive only just retired my fullriver AGM after 10 faithful years of under bonnet use. Not sure it's the death sentence some make out,
I took on a lithium starter/winch battery from Itech just on 12 months ago. I was asked what aux battery isolator I utilised (Redarc 25D). As a result I was advised by Itech prior to purchasing this would be an issue and that I'd need a victron programmable isolator or a ignition relay to seperate prior to 25D 12.7v isolation flattening my lithium starter battery. As I already had my previous Redarc 12v VSR, I simply disconnected the VRS circuit from the relay, wired relay directly to ign and now switch the Redarc 25D on/off with ignition, easy fix, no heat issue or complication of variable isolator, again some things can be over complicated. I give full credit to Itech for disclosing this prior to purchase, ♥️ my Itech drop in starter & aux batteries. My only issue is my Redarc BCDC25D is mounted under bonnet also and regularly shuts down charging due to overheating, need to upgrade it to 40amp DCDC charger relocated to better air flow, will be happening later in year.
You’ll notice most of the brands that offer under bonnet lithium shorten their warranty period. For good reason, the chemistry/technology just hasn’t been there yet. A few brands have messed around with trying to shield or insulate the cells- but they all end up heat soaking after hours under the bonnet. BUT, Watch this space. There’s people working very hard on testing new tech 🤐
Scary thing tho ya relying only on electronic stuff and if something stuffs up like say over charging the battery it could ignite , or the fancy internals in the battery malfunction it could ignite , I'm not sure we are ready to put them in side off our mobile homes yet because if a lithium battery did ever catch on fire it's game over 9
Any electrical system has an element of risk. If anything, lithium iron batteries are amongst the lowest risk. I think there may be a lot of confusing LiFePO4 with other lithium chemistry. The lithium ion battery in your phone/tablet/kindle that most people place by their head while they sleep, leave on flammable surfaces like their couch or bed throughout the day or in their pocket by their groin has a much higher chance of combusting. Lead acid batteries in most vans have no protection against a dead short across the terminals. If something conductive bounces around and lands across the terminals it’ll spark and heat up until it’s moved (ever accidentally dropped a tool under the bonnet across the cranking battery, and it starts welding itself to the terminals!). LiFePO4 batteries won’t do that, they’ll open the circuit if they’re overheated, overcharged, over discharged or in the event of a dead short.
There is way too much spin about drop in Lithium batteries they are light and can deliver a lot of power but they have significant shortcomings like people they want to be kept at a comfortable temperature +4 to 28 Celsius that's why electric cars have battery heaters and radiators. If LG can't keep house storage batteries happy under the eaves of a house inside a parked car can hit +70 degrees, the AGM battery wants to be kept charged the lithium would prefer to be only charged to 80% that's why your iPhone does that at night. Its easy to get a charger to float a AGM battery but a lot more complex to manage a lithium well
Curious as to why you limited the enerdrive to 30a? a Hiace alternator should be 120a so having it set at 50a shouldnt be a drama at all. As thats one of the biggest benefits of lithium, being able to dump a large charge current into it to recharge in a shorter period of time.
Yeah the alternator, DCDC charger and battery will all handle a 50a charge no probs. But I’ve limited it to a more conservative 30a for longevity. Everyone has different needs, my folks wanted something that was absolutely set and forget for the next 10-15 years. So the battery I put it in a slightly larger battery so that it is never deeply discharged, and charge current was set to the batteries recommended standard 30a charge current. They’ll get a good 5000+ cycles (13-14years of daily discharge to 70%), and a 1-2hr drive will have them topped up again. With the reserve for a much deeper discharge for the longer stays where solar isn’t performing well.
@@krump743 completely wrong. It’s not like a lead acid or agm battery where input charge has an actual effect on life. And 50ah on a 150ah lithium is completely fine and within spec, most BMS units are rated much higher for charge rates. 9/10 what kills lithium is vibrations, not charge/discharge
@@SUPERTRUCKER166 bruh... I said "smaller batteries". If it was fine to pump in 50 amps to a lithium battery why does redarc recommend a bcdc25d for batteries under 200 amps.....
I'd love to switch from AGM to lithium but with three separate systems (Coaster, 4x4 and camping trailer) all using AGM specific gear, it just keeps on going in to the too hard and too expensive bucket.
- At least Lithium batteries are light - fit (or have fitted if you can find an Auto Elec willing to do a crimp or 2) the DC-DC charger with Anderson connectors and the whole setup can move from vehicle to vehicle as the seasons change.. (I have had a Redarc BCDC1225D purely hooked in with Andersons' for years - it lives connected to an AGM (mostly on a 240VAC maintenance chrager) but can simply be unhooked and swapped over to an LFP as needed- change mode - orange+green wire - and off you go. In my ute there is a 200AH Renogy LFP- I went with the Renogy 50A DC-DC charger - installed nearly 2 years, no problems so far - flexible solar strapped onto the roofrack (or on top of RTT/Rack Bag, for when it is needed) )
@@WesternAustraliaNowAndThen ,, Redarc BC-DC allow 12 or 24V input (buck/boost converter - the Solar input is also 9-32VDC) , others may too, though Enerdrive DC-DC Chargers are separate models 12v and 24V models.. (BCDC1225D/1240D 9-32VDC Input. Source, Redarc)
So it isn't the best idea to use a lead-acid charger for my new LiFePO4 trolling motor battery. Okie dokie👍. ...But if I had to do it for a few months, it sounds like my humongous, 50-year-old, 10 amp, DC "dumb" charger would be much better than my automatic, do-everything "smart" one from just a few years ago, as long as I keep a cheap multi-tester handy and monitor things closely... YES!! 😎
Really appreciate the video, The Honesty, and the way you explain it Cam... Legend mate, P.S i personally wasnt aware of the AC chargers, so i definitely learnt something new today , Thank You again
Depending on how they are used or abused,20 yrs off grid 12 v Lead acid experience,,I avoid conversation about batteries,,most people will never get it and can't be told anything , LoL
Good information but you're absorption theory is incorrect. AGM profile will go in to absorption mode around 70-80% of lithium SOC this is done by voltage reading. Then it will drop voltage down to slow down the amp charging rate. For lithium it will be extremely slow and with enough time it will fully charge this will not hurt the battery in any way just unlikely to ever fully charge it.
Good video you put up. I recently got a itechworld 25am dcdc charger and battery and am struggling to ever see it hit 100%. Do you know if that’s normal for lithium. I’ll have to go back and watch your dmax 12v fit out
Great video mate - I am going through all this at the moment! It's a shame that changing over is so super expensive....I will need people to sign up to my OnlyFans page so I can afford to change my trailer over 🤣🤣
The amount of customers I have come in who’ve been had by the well known “drop in replacement” company is shocking. The poor buggers buy these batteries on this companies advice then find the system performs worse than it did before they changed.
Yeah there is a few brands that claim to be.. ANY brand lithium battery CAN run off a lead acid charger- watch the video again for 4 solid reasons not to…
LiFePO4 batteries are probably the safest battery to have inside a camper van/ caravan/ motor home. I’m not sure if your confusing them for other lithium chemistry batteries which are more unstable? The BMS/BPS will shut the battery off if there is a dead short, over charge or other malfunction. They don’t gas or vent, their chemistry is very stable. If they are overcharged or subject to physical damage, the phosphate-oxide bond remains structurally stable; whereas in other lithium chemistries the bonds begin breaking down and releasing excessive heat, which eventually leads to thermal Runaway. Lithium phosphate cells are incombustible, which is an important feature in the event of mishandling during charging or discharging. They can also withstand harsh conditions (freezing cold, heat or rough terrain). When subjected to hazardous events, such as collision or short-circuiting, they won’t explode or catch fire.
Cudo’s for a well explained and reasoned description for lithium deployment. Lithium offers all the advantages you put forward however one issue you are having people believe here is the safety concept of lithium, ALL lithium families have the capability to catastrophically fail, Phosphate are the most benign next to titanate but they can and do have issues. What people don’t state is that the safety is totally reliant on the battery BMS. The loss of the BMS removes all control and safety constraints. Nearly all lithium fires have been a result of BMS failures which led to the cell failure everyone calls out. BMS failures are rare - but the can and do occur. A reasonable installation should allow for sufficient ventilation to account for the tiny chance that it could happen, as a note a lithium fire cannot be extinguished until the electrolyte has burnt itself away. The gasses involved are toxic and if contained explosive hence some sort of ventilation is good practice.
That electronic sound when the numbers first came up frightened a fart out of me. I was only partially paying attention but the ZZZZZZ sound woke me up!
😂 ⚡️
@@WildTouring Hello Cheers for sharing the knowledge its hard to come by with this topic. Ive just basically destroyed 1000$ worth of kings gear due to reverse on the battery terminals, but i did manage to learn a bit in the process.( that battery never was right and sent me mad trying to figure it out) But i taught me what i already knew, to not buy garbage it will cost more in the future, tho Im happy it wasnt a expensive set up i destroyed. So thats the good i can take from it. I have so much to learn on a modest budget. Can i ask what battery would you recommend i get to power a caravan/cabin for one people, be just me. Im looking at the ATG 2x 150 or the 200 ah, whats your thoughts on that. I have the Victron smart shunt , all my panels 3x160w, breakers and fuses , some 2 and 4 awg wire , lugs and a cheap crimper. from Ebay When i figure what battery i want i can then get the victron MPPT and charger to suit . Would really appreciate any help you can give me. Cheers.
What i have picked up on is that most of the cheap ebay battery are only good for 80% of discharge, combined with a cheap mppt that gives me just over half of the batteries captivity 80-80 ( probs used cells that will never fully charge either way 🤷) Am I right in looking for a battery that can , if i choose to, use 100% of its captivity that I can change if thats what I choose to do. I believe a a victron Mppt will allow this. This is what im thinking after months of reshearch and reading, Is this correct. Sorry for the babble, but cheers to the beers.
I’m a retired electrician, just Setting up my four-wheel-drive to start travelling I learnt some things today thank you 👍
If you're spending the money on a lithium upgrade, I'd also recommend installing a smart shunt like a victron BMV-712 so you can always check the battery state of charge accurately and see if your charger system is working as you expect. You can't just look at a voltage gauge anymore.
Yeah definitely! Stuck a BMV712 in dads van, same unit I run in my canopy and caravan 👍🏼
I got suspicious when a guy at work was telling me Itechworld in WA claim their batteries can be charged by normal lead acid charger. I did a bit of research and changed out the AC charger in the van to a Victron unit when I installed my Lithiums.
Itechworld's web site FAQs
"I have a non-lithium profile charger; will it work with your battery?
99% of all non-lithium profile chargers are compatible with iTechworld lithium batteries, the only chargers that may not be compatible are chargers that are specifically designed to charge calcium batteries. Non lithium profile solar controllers and non-lithium profile DCDC chargers are also compatible with iTechworld batteries. The battery will charge to 98%-100% when using non lithium profiles. Using a non-lithium profile charger will not shorten the lifespan of an iTechworld battery, we warrant our batteries for use with non-lithium profiles.
What non-lithium charging profile should I set my charger to?
If the charger has a lithium profile; it should always be used ahead of all other charging profiles. If the charger does not have a lithium profile you can use AGM and GEL as iTechworld lithium batteries can accept charge from those type of profiles."
When I built my van, 2005- 2007, my 12v system was 2 ,260 AMP HR, Full River batteries, 90 kg , each, 1 solar panel, 45 AMP, charger, Batteries lasted 12 yrs, Now have 2, 270 amp hrs, AGM, Super charge Batteries, 71 kg each, nearly 5 yr old, Still going strong, Read about drop in lithium, glad I watched your advice, Gives me something to think about, All my caravan is 12 v, If AGM,s last a few more yrs , cost wise I will be using them again, Thanks for your input, Cheers Bevan
Great episode Cam and as always incredible delivery. Got to love marketing spin and a sales pitch. Nice little set-up for your folks to trip around in. Cheers 🍺
Cheers Luke! They’re loving their van, Mum calls it her Barbie Camper much to dads disgust 😂
Spot on. I’ve wondered how many battery sellers get away with claiming this. I learnt all about this in my solar storage course. About time someone has spoken up about this Cam. Another myth is that draining lithium down to 0volts when flat. It will only shut off at the volts predetermined by the bms. Good video.
There’s a few wild claims from some of these battery sellers!! Cheers Tim 🍻
As always Cam - another honest simple to understand bit of information. Cheers!
Cheers Keith 👍🏼
Good info thanks Cam.
I've wondered if some of the fire incidents we're hearing about relating to lithium batteries are from using an incorrect charger? It's inevitable there will be some oops moments as we transition to lithium technology.
Just a heads up for anyone with a Redarc BCDC 1225D or 1240D in car charger (many will have these set ups installed by ARB).
The wiring connection needs to be reconfigured when swapping from an AGM to lithium battery. Details are available on line - read the instructions!
Cheers mate! There’s definitely the risk of a fire with any battery system. But I honestly think a lot of the fire stories you hear about are crap!
Bit of fear mongering going off the back of stability issues with other lithium battery chemistry (specifically lithium ion).
But I’m sure overcharging, lower grade cells and a cheap bms don’t help the chances of malfunction!
Yeah you’re bang on about the redarcs! 👍🏼
@@WildTouring - Fires which are verified seem to not be the battery (at least not with the LFP - intrinsically safe ish- installs I have heard of) but the Electrical components, wire gauge, quality of crimps etc.
(Between the shed and car I have 1000Ah of 12v (4S) LFP, I also have (and have had) white a few "LiPo" batteries used in RC aircraft (and "drones"" ) - a few puffed cells (even one sitting inside a concrete block containment for the last few years - that is a 6S 5AH Nanotec LiPo with the most negative cell severely puffed and measuring zero volts ), never once a fire - on the battery side.
Oh No, you've opened a can of Orange and Black worms. I can hear the snapping turtles awakening 🤣
Good stuff Cam 👍
😂 no comment 🤐
You didn’t say itech did you? Nah….
Thanks Cam for keeping us educated - I’ve opted for an Amptron Lithium 100ah battery with Redarc charger to accomodate solar as well - I expect a few lithium fires may have started with dodgy marketing advice for replacing existing Lead Acid setups - good work helping out your folks too
Good info! I've got the opposite scenario of a lithium AC charger and AGM batteries.
The batteries are cheap/questionable no name quality AGM's that came with the camper from new. I requested the lithium AC charger for a near future plan of replacing the AGM batteries.
When we purchased the camper I expected them to fail quickly compared to other reputable brands.
I've found running the charger in power supply mode or float charge mode (13.8v) effectively trickle charges the batteries and they seem happy in doing so over the past 7mths of constant use.
As you mentioned lithiums bulk charge quite aggressively so keeping that in mind I don't use the proper charge mode unless they have been floating at 13.8v for a period of days and I want to quickly top them off to 14.4v before heading away etc. - The charger usually kicks straight into the final absorption stage from 13.8v and tops them up to full within an hour or two.
Theory is it's less shock on the batteries to go from 13.8v float voltage to 14.4v than it is from 12.5v to 14.4v. Otherwise they bulk charge harder and longer than I'm comfortable with.
Nice one Cam! I switch from a standard wet lead acid to a lithium, but I have a Victron and switched the profile. It's so important to get those parameters right for a good charge!
Cheers Steve. Good one mate, Victron gear is top notch 👌
The part where you mentioned the reluctance of some to get involved with someone else's work ,I agree.
Many times, I have walked away from a botch job. The response from the customer can be vicious when you tell them it's company policy not to get involved.
Great video. As a sparky, it drives me crazy the number of customers telling me that the battery salesman says, "She'll be right." It's very misleading the "drop in replacement " sales pitch.
One other thing I'd like to add to your video is that the float stage on most SLA battery chargers will produce a small current. Lifepo4 don't like a current put into them at full SOC. This will also shorten the life of your lithium battery.
Keep up the great content.
Yeah I can imagine! I guess it’s probably good for business (fixing all the crappy systems) 😂
But I hate to hear about ppl getting ripped off!
that was a great explanation of the differences between the 2 types of battery systems and I will be showing this to friends that seem to think it is ok for standard agm chargers to charge lithium well done cheers
Thanks, great coverage, just what I needed to know as I move to Lithium. 👍
That two seconds of jazz was great Cam. Can we have some more?
😂 I love that you watched this Howie hahaha
very good vid Cam, I likewise, have had this discussion with people wanting to upgrade. But let me enlighten your followers to another similar situation that can lead to expensive tow tug repairs. Some camper trailer sellers offer Lithium battery/s in their camper but these are NOT fitted with a DCDC Lithium charger. This is a major problem when connecting to the older style VCR dual battery systems in many tow vehicles. Because lithium batteries can draw huge charge currents, these currents can destroy alternators and wiring (if undersized) and cause vehicle fires....so insist on a trailer installed DCDC Lithium charger before taking delivery of your camper that is fitted with Lithium battery....Keep up the good work bro....Cheers
Noticed this on a mates 100k van 😳
Huge amount of voltage drop causing current to increase and he couldn’t work out why he kept blowing the inline fuse. 🤯 blew my mind that they would not have a dcdc charger in the van!
I feel like this video has come at perfect time this was an arguement on 12v 4x4 page the other day. People talking about itech like they had built in chagers lol
Done your research and understood it. Well explained too. On ya Cam. note: lotsa solar panels
Good video to make. I'll give a few points....
Many people have been fooled into think the "drop in batteries" have current and voltage limiting circuits.... And that's clearly wrong! Good you mentioned that.
People make too big a deal about charging profile for Li batteries. They don't really care how the current is delivered (most cells are rated for >0.5C charge if not 1C)... But the BMS input MOSFETs are often less than that. The important point is to stop charging once it's full. Again, 14V is a better charge voltage, as thats 99% capability.
In your parents case.... You could put an Anderson plug on the 240V charger and feed that into the Dcdc converter .... The rare times that's required. I have an old ctek battery charger that has a constant voltage mode of 13.8V. I use that to charge my Li batteries
Cheers Chris, funny you mention that. I was wondering how the enerdrive would go with the existing AC charger coming into channel 3. On paper it’s still within the voltages the enerdrive can handle. Was gonna ask my auto sparky 🤷♂️
@@WildTouring Was also wondering this, just put a lithium into my 4wd which has a lithium compatible dcdc (renogy) and a victron mppt for normal charging duties. I do like to put the car on the 240v charger before trips and havn't bought a charger yet for this purpose. Have just put a 370w solar panel on the roof so not sure i'll ever need to now, need to wire that up and see if im ever going to need 240v charging again, I suspect not.
@@bradleymarshall5591 I reckon Ac charger may not turn on without seeing a battery voltage. If you want to do something like that what you can do is put the ac charger on the cranking battery, itll charge it & turn the dcdc on to charge your aux battery too. Not the perfect scenario but itll get the job done.
I just checked my 240v multi stage charger which has GEL(14.1V) / AGM(14.4V) / WET(14.7V) and found in the manual the wet mode goes to 16.0V in Recondition stage. AGM mode stays at 14.4V. And the battery specs say to charge at 14.4 - 14.7v so AGM mode on my particular charger (Projecta IC2500W) should be fine. Thanks for the thought provoking video to make me check.
No worries 👍🏼 that’s good news!
Good video mate... That victron charger you shown is $186 AUD with a eBay discount.. I brought one last week and works great
Cheers mate!
Get a Lithium profile AC to DC charger. The only "drop-in" replacement I have seen is one for the cranking battery. iTech does one and going by their blurb they are the only one. They have a inbuilt charger that is suitable to work with the alternator output. Other brands need a separate charge controller.
Almost any lithium battery will accept straight alternator output voltage. And function okay for a period.
But not one reputable brand would ever recommend it for all the reasons mentioned in this video.
Great info mate, made it very clear, cheers
Good detail mate. They’ll say whatever they can to make the sale!!
How bout a vid on the folks ripper camper ?? Looks mint 🍻
Cheers mate! Yeah I'll probably whip the camera over it the next time we get away together!
I'm surprised most older chargers don't have a lithium profile? I mean they have been around for a while. I got a cheapo portable solar panel with a MPPT charger from amazon and even that had separate charging profiles for AGM/Lithum. Anyways is there a video on changing a LA charger for a Lithium charger and can you usually keep the same cables?
Very useful and clear info. Many thanks👍
Cheers mate!
Any recommendations on a affordable wall charger for a 100ah battery? i don't care if it takes 24 hours to charge only going to be using it 2-3 times a yea, informative video none the less, cheers.
Great advise Cam
Cheers Peter 👍🏼
Lovely Ep
Very well explained. 👍🏻
Not ideal practice but could you reuse your non lithium 240v AC charger and charge your starter battery to indirectly charge your lithium battery? That way your Dcdc charger will regulate and supply the current lithium charging algorithm.
I’m in the same situation, non lithium 240v 25A AC charger, 25A DC DC charger with lithium profile. AGM battery but looking to upgrade to a lithium battery.
Useful stuff there Cam
Thanks Gary!
But look at the 8s , 24 volt lifepo4. its the same perimeters, as lead acid 24 volts. 4s, and 36s and 48s do not match at all, but 8s is the same. I have an older 15,000 watt UPS/ATS inverter /WITH A 60 AMP charger. It only has settings for lead types. An actual pot you need to turn with a tiny screw driver. It's a great lead acid charger. The last 4, 110 amp hour deep cycle batteries FROM WALMART, were still working good when I sold them for $50 each 6 YEARS LATER. These Sealed lead acid had air tight caps you could unscrew to check and refill the water.
The lowest voltage setting, I think it is for the GEL perimeters, are basically the same needed to keep lifepo4 up and ready. I've heard it explained that lifpo4 does not care if a trickle charge exist, mostly because they won't trigger it much because they hold a charge. It works just like small UPS people use for their home computers for an uninterrupted power supply. I've had 2, 100 amp hour 8S lifepo4 batteries connected to that inverter charger , for a good 5 years or so and the cells look good. The only problem I have, is due to unmatched cells. But some 10 amp active balancers helped that situation.
The "cycling" pack charge shutdowns, are from unbalanced cells and unmatched cell capacities that charge and discharge at different rates. A lithium charger will do the same thing..
I just paid extra for some new ,tested and matched 300 Ah cells and those work perfect on that 24 volt, 60 amp charger, UPS ,ATS. Huge difference in the end charge cycling. This is none.
Good info well explained 😎👍
Redarc’s old BMS system has 3 different types of battery charging options. Are you saying these aren’t up to the task?
Well explained.🙏👍
I've heard that when buying and before installing a lithium battery, the cells need to be averaged out by discharging, then recharging the battery with a dedicated lithium 240v charger.
Would that be right?
Once again, a good video, Cam.
Cheers.
That certainly cleared a few urban myths
Some manufacturers offer drop in lithium for starter batteries
The problem arises when you have a dc/dc charger which are all designed for lead acid starter batteries
They all isolate the starter battery at 12.7 volts which is ok for lead acid but dead flat for lithium
installing a smart battery protect solves the problem however they can’t handle temps over 60 degrees which is no good under the bonnet
Theres some interesting developments happening with under bonnet lithium. I reckon we're pretty close to seeing some viable options available soon!
@@WildTouring The folks running DCS under bonnet would all say there are viable options now. Im yet to see a report to the contrary about them.
@@bradleymarshall5591 Totally agree. There is nothing currently available on the market that I’d spend my hard earned on to cook under a bonnet. And their warranty periods reflect the confidence the battery sellers have in them!
@@WildTouring What sort of warranty do they offer? Not many manufacturers offer more than 2 years that i've seen. Not meant to fit AGM's under the bonnet but ive only just retired my fullriver AGM after 10 faithful years of under bonnet use. Not sure it's the death sentence some make out,
I took on a lithium starter/winch battery from Itech just on 12 months ago.
I was asked what aux battery isolator I utilised (Redarc 25D). As a result I was advised by Itech prior to purchasing this would be an issue and that I'd need a victron programmable isolator or a ignition relay to seperate prior to 25D 12.7v isolation flattening my lithium starter battery.
As I already had my previous Redarc 12v VSR, I simply disconnected the VRS circuit from the relay, wired relay directly to ign and now switch the Redarc 25D on/off with ignition, easy fix, no heat issue or complication of variable isolator, again some things can be over complicated.
I give full credit to Itech for disclosing this prior to purchase, ♥️ my Itech drop in starter & aux batteries.
My only issue is my Redarc BCDC25D is mounted under bonnet also and regularly shuts down charging due to overheating, need to upgrade it to 40amp DCDC charger relocated to better air flow, will be happening later in year.
Very good to know,good video
Cheers mate, thanks for watching and commenting 👍🏼
Cam thanks for the video 👍👍👍
No worries!
Thanks, whats your view on under bonnet lithium?
You’ll notice most of the brands that offer under bonnet lithium shorten their warranty period. For good reason, the chemistry/technology just hasn’t been there yet. A few brands have messed around with trying to shield or insulate the cells- but they all end up heat soaking after hours under the bonnet.
BUT, Watch this space. There’s people working very hard on testing new tech 🤐
Scary thing tho ya relying only on electronic stuff and if something stuffs up like say over charging the battery it could ignite , or the fancy internals in the battery malfunction it could ignite , I'm not sure we are ready to put them in side off our mobile homes yet because if a lithium battery did ever catch on fire it's game over 9
Any electrical system has an element of risk. If anything, lithium iron batteries are amongst the lowest risk. I think there may be a lot of confusing LiFePO4 with other lithium chemistry.
The lithium ion battery in your phone/tablet/kindle that most people place by their head while they sleep, leave on flammable surfaces like their couch or bed throughout the day or in their pocket by their groin has a much higher chance of combusting.
Lead acid batteries in most vans have no protection against a dead short across the terminals. If something conductive bounces around and lands across the terminals it’ll spark and heat up until it’s moved (ever accidentally dropped a tool under the bonnet across the cranking battery, and it starts welding itself to the terminals!). LiFePO4 batteries won’t do that, they’ll open the circuit if they’re overheated, overcharged, over discharged or in the event of a dead short.
100 % on the mark the other important aspect is don't charge lithium batteries below 0 deg C.
There is way too much spin about drop in Lithium batteries they are light and can deliver a lot of power but they have significant shortcomings like people they want to be kept at a comfortable temperature +4 to 28 Celsius that's why electric cars have battery heaters and radiators. If LG can't keep house storage batteries happy under the eaves of a house inside a parked car can hit +70 degrees, the AGM battery wants to be kept charged the lithium would prefer to be only charged to 80% that's why your iPhone does that at night. Its easy to get a charger to float a AGM battery but a lot more complex to manage a lithium well
Hi Cam, love the content, where do you take your Ute in Wangara for pre trip inspection & upgrades please?
AGD auto, Aaron is really thorough!
Cheers mate, appreciate the reply, keep the good stuff coming👍
Curious as to why you limited the enerdrive to 30a? a Hiace alternator should be 120a so having it set at 50a shouldnt be a drama at all. As thats one of the biggest benefits of lithium, being able to dump a large charge current into it to recharge in a shorter period of time.
Yeah the alternator, DCDC charger and battery will all handle a 50a charge no probs. But I’ve limited it to a more conservative 30a for longevity.
Everyone has different needs, my folks wanted something that was absolutely set and forget for the next 10-15 years. So the battery I put it in a slightly larger battery so that it is never deeply discharged, and charge current was set to the batteries recommended standard 30a charge current.
They’ll get a good 5000+ cycles (13-14years of daily discharge to 70%), and a 1-2hr drive will have them topped up again. With the reserve for a much deeper discharge for the longer stays where solar isn’t performing well.
I set mine lower too. If stationary or cloudy for too long and the soc gets low you can always bump it up a bit.
Smashing 50 amps day in day out to a "smaller" battery will ruin it quicker than ud wanna hope to be replacing it again.
@@krump743 completely wrong. It’s not like a lead acid or agm battery where input charge has an actual effect on life. And 50ah on a 150ah lithium is completely fine and within spec, most BMS units are rated much higher for charge rates.
9/10 what kills lithium is vibrations, not charge/discharge
@@SUPERTRUCKER166 bruh... I said "smaller batteries". If it was fine to pump in 50 amps to a lithium battery why does redarc recommend a bcdc25d for batteries under 200 amps.....
I'd love to switch from AGM to lithium but with three separate systems (Coaster, 4x4 and camping trailer) all using AGM specific gear, it just keeps on going in to the too hard and too expensive bucket.
- At least Lithium batteries are light - fit (or have fitted if you can find an Auto Elec willing to do a crimp or 2) the DC-DC charger with Anderson connectors and the whole setup can move from vehicle to vehicle as the seasons change..
(I have had a Redarc BCDC1225D purely hooked in with Andersons' for years - it lives connected to an AGM (mostly on a 240VAC maintenance chrager) but can simply be unhooked and swapped over to an LFP as needed- change mode - orange+green wire - and off you go. In my ute there is a 200AH Renogy LFP- I went with the Renogy 50A DC-DC charger - installed nearly 2 years, no problems so far - flexible solar strapped onto the roofrack (or on top of RTT/Rack Bag, for when it is needed) )
@@kadmow We have a DC-DC in the 4x4 but the Coaster is 24 volt so it gets a bit harder to swap things around sadly.
@@WesternAustraliaNowAndThen ,, Redarc BC-DC allow 12 or 24V input (buck/boost converter - the Solar input is also 9-32VDC) , others may too, though Enerdrive DC-DC Chargers are separate models 12v and 24V models.. (BCDC1225D/1240D 9-32VDC Input. Source, Redarc)
So it isn't the best idea to use a lead-acid charger for my new LiFePO4 trolling motor battery. Okie dokie👍.
...But if I had to do it for a few months, it sounds like my humongous, 50-year-old, 10 amp, DC "dumb" charger would be much better than my automatic, do-everything "smart" one from just a few years ago, as long as I keep a cheap multi-tester handy and monitor things closely... YES!! 😎
Really appreciate the video, The Honesty, and the way you explain it Cam... Legend mate, P.S i personally wasnt aware of the AC chargers, so i definitely learnt something new today , Thank You again
Cheers Chris
That agm in your parent’s van must have been crook. The least I’ve ever got from agm is 7 years.
Depending on how they are used or abused,20 yrs off grid 12 v Lead acid experience,,I avoid conversation about batteries,,most people will never get it and can't be told anything , LoL
@@jeffreystorer4966 I’m hearing you 😀
Good information but you're absorption theory is incorrect.
AGM profile will go in to absorption mode around 70-80% of lithium SOC this is done by voltage reading. Then it will drop voltage down to slow down the amp charging rate. For lithium it will be extremely slow and with enough time it will fully charge this will not hurt the battery in any way just unlikely to ever fully charge it.
Good video you put up. I recently got a itechworld 25am dcdc charger and battery and am struggling to ever see it hit 100%. Do you know if that’s normal for lithium. I’ll have to go back and watch your dmax 12v fit out
What are you monitoring state of charge with?
I run all itech gear in my van.
You will need to buy and install a battery monitor/Shunt to get an accurate reading.
Trying to charge a lithium battery from lead acid stuff is like giving shell fish to a anaphylactic person and hoping its going to be ok.
🤣🤣
Great video mate - I am going through all this at the moment!
It's a shame that changing over is so super expensive....I will need people to sign up to my OnlyFans page so I can afford to change my trailer over 🤣🤣
I will sign up to ya onlyfans Brad 😘
Hi Cam, Have you decided on a tow vehicle. Pete
Leaning towards the 300 series, havnt ordered anything yet though!
@@WildTouring I have a new ranger coming. Apparently they tow well for about 17-18 l/hk
@@WildTouring I have ordered a Ranger Wildtrak. Supposed to be here next week...
The amount of customers I have come in who’ve been had by the well known “drop in replacement” company is shocking. The poor buggers buy these batteries on this companies advice then find the system performs worse than it did before they changed.
Thats what really grinds me.. Hate to see people being mislead.
Who built your parents camper? That thing is sick
Dove campers 👍🏼
Itechworld lithiums are drop in batteries.
Yeah there is a few brands that claim to be..
ANY brand lithium battery CAN run off a lead acid charger- watch the video again for 4 solid reasons not to…
That's what they tell you..BS
Lol bruh
@@WildTouring yeah i wouldnt haha, no brainer just to buy the correct charger.
Lithium batteries should not be installed inside a camper van, they should be treated the same as a gas bottle.
LiFePO4 batteries are probably the safest battery to have inside a camper van/ caravan/ motor home.
I’m not sure if your confusing them for other lithium chemistry batteries which are more unstable?
The BMS/BPS will shut the battery off if there is a dead short, over charge or other malfunction.
They don’t gas or vent, their chemistry is very stable. If they are overcharged or subject to physical damage, the phosphate-oxide bond remains structurally stable; whereas in other lithium chemistries the bonds begin breaking down and releasing excessive heat, which eventually leads to thermal Runaway. Lithium phosphate cells are incombustible, which is an important feature in the event of mishandling during charging or discharging. They can also withstand harsh conditions (freezing cold, heat or rough terrain). When subjected to hazardous events, such as collision or short-circuiting, they won’t explode or catch fire.
Cudo’s for a well explained and reasoned description for lithium deployment. Lithium offers all the advantages you put forward however one issue you are having people believe here is the safety concept of lithium, ALL lithium families have the capability to catastrophically fail, Phosphate are the most benign next to titanate but they can and do have issues. What people don’t state is that the safety is totally reliant on the battery BMS. The loss of the BMS removes all control and safety constraints. Nearly all lithium fires have been a result of BMS failures which led to the cell failure everyone calls out. BMS failures are rare - but the can and do occur. A reasonable installation should allow for sufficient ventilation to account for the tiny chance that it could happen, as a note a lithium fire cannot be extinguished until the electrolyte has burnt itself away. The gasses involved are toxic and if contained explosive hence some sort of ventilation is good practice.
Hi Cam looking at Willow RV, what suggestions do you have about the van, concerned about the 240v electric
Honestly, I wouldn't buy one again for what we paid. Let alone the 20k more they are now!