Fix it Yourself - Troubleshooting Ignition, MSD Spark Modules, Accel Gen 7 EFI
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- čas přidán 1. 07. 2024
- Learn how to troubleshoot basic ignition problems and learn how and MSD (Multi Spark Discharge) box or module can help increase your engine performance. Reset the base crankshaft advance on an Accel Gen 7 EFI system.
What is an MSD box
How does an MSD box work
How do you hook up an MSD box
What is multi spark discharge
What is capacitive discharge - Auta a dopravní prostředky
Can't thank you enough Pete! I really don't know much about all this but this was the most straight forward info I've seen. Right now I'm still running the Perfomer till winter. Yesterday the Brown Santa dropped off my new DUI ignition. When I replace my "87 5.2 with the "99 EFI this will help even if OEM. Then I will replace the Performer with a Sniper in the spring or summer in my second jeep. Again, thank you Pete. You're the Man
Awesome Jake!
Another great video Pete thank you! Hope you and the family are well.
Thanks my friend, we are doing well. Same to you.
Another informative video, including good safety advice about capacitors. They are dangerous in TV's, air conditioners, lots of stuff. Hope you keep up the content.
Thanks my friend, I will
Great video, definitely helpful! I always wondered how an ignition coil could step up 12 volts dc, when coils (transformers) usually only do that to alternating current. But the diagram made me realize that the current flow on the secondary side thru the spark plug is what is causing the magnetic field to collapse and expand throughout the coil. Thanks Pete.
Thanks J. Once you understand it you can easily diagnose any problem.
as always impeccable pete !!! this is something we go crazy to connect thank you very much for the videos !!
Thanks Matias
Static can be deadly, great Vid!
It sure can! Thanks my friend
Great video Pete👍🏼,thanks for all the info and all your time.
Thanks for watching my friend
Many thanks & congrats on your awsome work and very clear info. I, As an E.R.MD, (just FYI),can tell you it's considered that a discharge as low as 1.000 milliAmps / (ONE) 1 Amp @ 120 Volts, can stop a human heart, specifically if said human is 'forming' a bridge, (like holding a paddle with opposite polarity), with each hand, while standing the discharge. Most often, we use 200 - 300 Joules as a defibrillating discharge.
Back to cars, I still own my late Dad's quite old, but very reliable Nissan Patrol, 1984/ G60 / P40 I6 / 4 Liter carbureted engine, very similar to GM's Inline sixes of 1.970's and am thinking of modding its dizzy to 'electronic' to get rid of points as well as reasonably improving mileage and (maybe) some additional power.
My question Pete is:
Do you think I should also change the original coil for another 'higher performance' one + an MSD unit??. Thank you kindly for your attention & outstanding job!!.
A hotter spark does wonders
Another great video Pete, thanks for the info.
Thanks Bill
The old ignition systems that used points in the distributor had approximately 25,000 volts. The newer electronic ignition systems have around 60,000 volts at the spark plugs. The multiple discharge systems will most likely have a higher voltage And they will fire the spark plugs multiple times where as the older systems only fired once per power stroke. I personally used to just pull the plug wire off the plug while the engine was running in order to find out which cylinder was missing. The first time I did that with an electronic ignition the spark came around the insulator and hit me HARD. That was the Last time I did That, and that was an early version that only fired once per power stroke. My advice BE VERY CAREFUL WHEN YOU WORK WITH THE NEWER ELECTRONIC IGNITION SYSTEMS, they could very easily Kill you. Just my personal opinion, take it for what it's worth. Love your channel, Pete, thanks for all you do.
Awesome comment, thanks Bruce.
@@glengillham4629, this is known as a "learning experience". I'll bet you won't do that again.
so well explained! Thank you
You're very welcome!
Great video Pete, very informative,
Thanks my friend
Well done, Pete. Years ago i used 7 AL boxes for racing and had so much trouble with them it was just crazy. It's sucks when you're leading with 2 laps to go and the box gives up. 😢
That would suck. Maybe they were overheating?
@@PetesGarage That's what i thought was a possibility and tried mounting in different locations but it didn't help. Maybe the quality is better these days but somehow i doubt it.
Interesting problem to solve
Bit by MSD with Blaster 2 coil.. (Idle) I have M.S. and can't feel with my fingers, hands and forearms. It will get your attention. I had grounded my sweaty arms and was getting the volts.. ever had your elbows clapping together? I have.. lol. NOW amps.. I have had 5 heart attacks, and hit with a defibrillator, rated in jewels, 32,000 of them over 1,000 amps It will wake the dead.. Trust me, and hurts like hell. dang. Good video...
Wow...thanks for sharing that
@@PetesGarage NOT A PROBLEM, lol. I'm just glad I wasn't fixing the total timing or Revving it up for throttle response.. LOL
Great video.
Thanks my friend
It would be interesting to perform dyno tests after your best Pete's Garage tune on that awesome EFI system versus your best tune on a hot carb setup.
It would be. I have taken carbs off engines with an existing dyno sheet and put on EFI systems and got more HP because of the hotter and more precisely controlled spark and fuel control. Even top fuel engines do not have carbs anymore. The use an injector plate over the supercharger and a computer to control spark.
Thanks Pete good video
Thanks my friend
Sir thank you for the information
Thanks my friend
Nice Cobra.
It's coming along
Hi Pete
Great video very informative as always
I am trying to get in touch with you
Is the end of vid number the best way?
Have a great day
Yup, just text me.
awesome / that's all there is to it.. thank you
That's it
Great video
Thanks!
I can't believe I got to this one 12 hours late. Guess I am not the night-owl that I used to be.
It's getting tougher to upload during the day. Thanks for watching. I'll have to put you on the text notification list....lol
Great vid too . Build On
Thanks my friend
Thanks pete very helpfull
Happy to help
Hi Pete. Question for you a little off topic. If you are installing a juice box on a flathead V8 (without any of the surrounding tins ) is it generally more acceptable to go the more practical route with an alternator or go stock with a generator
A single wire alternator is all you need
Helpful thank you
You're welcome!
Great video with attention to detail I've been searching CZcams to try to find a problem with my car. I got it out of storage from last October of 2019. the car has a mechanical fuel pump so it took a little while to crank to start but I've owned this car for quite some time and it was standard for the first time start up this summer. I pulled the car out washed it and took it to a car show and after 30 to 40 minutes I went to get in in the car would not start it wanted to start for a nanosecond but then I could tell it wasn't going to start. I let the car sit for quite a few minutes and tried it again and it wouldn't start. After waiting longer it finally fired and I drove it home it ran impeccable. Weird....... I thought maybe I had some old fuel and maybe need to check the plugs. I ended up putting plugs in it as the plugs didn't looks fantastic I seen worse but I chose to put new plugs in it. The car started perfectly and I drove it to get some good fuel. I shut the car off to get fuel the car started right back up and then stalled within 20 ft. It's getting plenty of air and plenty of fuel. I did the test off the MSD website and I'm getting plenty of spark. I'm afraid to drive the car very far as it's almost stranded me twice I don't want a tow bill. It's a very weird intermittent problem. I can go out and start the car right now and it will fire fine I've let it sit for up to 16 20 minutes and let it idle shut it off and will fire right back up three times in a row but it seems like after I drive it those two times it doesn't want to fire back up until it's sits ..... Any ideas Pete?
I need details about the car
451 inch roller stroker
Msd 6al. ....Coil... Tach adapter. Mopar performance aluminum mechanical dizzy.
Well, it can only be not enough fuel or weak spark
Pete, I have a mark iv 454 big block Chevy, I’m going to be rebuilding it. I was looking at doing multi point injection instead of tbi. How do you go about choosing parts for mpfi? Any advice? Thanks in advanced!
First you have to find a manifold. Chance are you'll have to buy one and have the bungs welded in. Then install the system. Holly makes a very good system.
But wait. I’m confused, voltage doesn’t kill... so, how can 15000 volts kill? Great video! Thanks for the great information!
It's not the volts, it's the amps
Good job
Thanks
So true mate, I got whacked with the old Chrysler chrome box and nearly got knocked out when my head hit the bonnet. A CD ignition would probably kill you.
It's pretty rough for sure
Great tutorial Pete! Question on a ready to go Distributor and a Blaster 2 coil setup. I have a weird hesitation like a hiccup when I accelerate. At first I thought it was a carb issue. But I checked the electrical first. It looks like the coil is dropping below 12v when I rev. So I jumped the Pos. wire straight to the pos. battery. Problem solved. I can't leave it, So with the power source problem i'm assuming from my key ignition how can I find why it drops like it does through the ignition key? Would I just have a bad key ignition or could it be to much draw on the ignition like a electric fan and a e-fuel pump. Would a msd ignition solve it? But it is a self-starter distributor but specs say not necessary... Thanks for any advise. I've been raking my brain trying to troubleshoot this danm thing! :)
Try hooking to a different switched power
@@PetesGarage A relay solved it. Thanks!
Nice!!
Interesting take on ignition. These multi spark systems only re-strike up to 3000 rpm, then it's a single spark. There isn't enough time for the caps to charge above that for multi spark.
Thanks Vince
I have a summitracing brand trying to fire up a engine but it crank over but doesn't start I have my engine on a small test stand and I have a summitracing multi-spark capacitive discharge ignition system
Check the 3 things, air fuel and spark. Check the timing
caps can be rated up to 500 volts but they're being charged with 12 volts they will store that but it's nothing like a camera flash circuit.........................
what's not clear is that this box is a boost circuit so yeah the output will be spicy.
Hey Pete I have a Factory 5 with a 302 EFI with a 6AL 6420 MSD box. My issue is when the RPMs hit 3500 it’s like it’s hitting a rev limiter. It did not have a chip in it so I had a 7k laying around however no change. I suspect the box but not for sure. Would the box display this symptom
If the box does not have an LED on it that blinks with error codes, you'll probably have to change it
Was told to check ignition switch is with test light. You hook one end to small wire ( not the big positive cable from the battery ) and ground it. You get it lit up then your switch is good ? Then could be starter? It sometimes will crank over sometimes won’t. And once it starts, will die on me. Stalls. Been told that ignition switch could be responsible for stalling after it starts?
That's possible, but it could also be other things
Anyone use an old Mallory Hy-Fire IV #697 ignition box with dual point distributor? If so you notice an improvement in performance from without the box?
Awesome
Thanks Steve
Does the 6al box for carbureted motors hold a charge if the battery cable is off i go to put it on and it sparks but only once dose the box hold a charge
That sounds right
Got a xy 500 side by side no spark. Changed the spark plug, spark plug wire and ignition coil still no spark. I don’t think I’m getting power to the 3 wires to the ignition coil? Ground is good for the wire. So the other 2 is signal wire and constant 12v? Not sure where I should start looking to see where the power comes from for those 2 wires?
Yes, one is constant 12V and the other is a trigger wire.
Pete, how did you make that bracket the e-core coil?
Machined from a block of aluminum and polished. It worked out perfect.
Thank you for a great film. I bought ACDelco ICM for a car 2003 Chevy Cavalier. I have a question about Thermal Paste for the back of the Ignition Control Module in that car. The Module is located on the top of the Coil Pack, which in its turn is sitting on the top of the ECOTEC engine (2.2L 134 CI L4 FI VIN: F). The ACDelco Module sent to me had no thermal paste, though it was shown on Amazon site, I reordered and the next shipment had no package w/paste again. It is not a big deal of course, but I want to know what paste to use. I think to apply some of those, which can be used for computer (for PC components). I have Silicon Heat Transfer Compound MG Chemicals 860-60G, MX-4 Thermal Compound Arctic, and Thermal Grease G107 Silver Gennel. I would appreciate any opinion on this matter.
Anything with silicone in it will work
@@PetesGarage Thank you. I thought to use Thermal Grease G107 Silver Gennel (has silver, good conductor (for heat as well)), but I'll double check for silicon content in it and might rather apply Silicon Heat Transfer Compound MG Chemicals 860-60G or MX-4 Thermal Compound Arctic (that one is most expensive, so maybe most efficient). In general I find that the application of chemicals (I mean which one to choose) is the most complicated part of DIY work on cars. Thank you again for your opinion and so informative film.
Thermal grease is great, a bit more expensive
@@PetesGarage Thank you for your replay. See I installed that ICM like 6-7 months ago with no lubricant at all. I wanted to replace the part, since the car had ~100K. When I removed the ICM in the box where it was sitting I saw a yellow blob, I didn't know what it is and threw it away, cleaned everything w/CRC electronics cleaner. A new part didn't have any package w/grease shown on web-site. Any attempts to find out what it is in that package failed, it is transparent thermal grease (not white as silicon products I saw). Meanwhile someone wrote that there is no need to put anything on the back of the ICM, but just a bit of dielectric grease on 2 connectors. Since everything was kind of vague on the project in the sense of that paste, I decided to install back the original part (there are no problems w/car) and meanwhile try to find out what exactly should go on the surface of the module. Someone was writing in comments that the paste is essential, and computer can start malfunctioning. The car was doing well through summer and autumn (in Texas). But I was thinking that it might not be right, so yesterday removed the ICM, put a layer of MG Chemicals - 860-60G Silicone Heat Transfer Compound, 60g Jar, so the ICM appeared as a sandwich w/butter. I put like 1-2 tsp, worry that might be too much. I also suspect that the blob I removed was the right thermal grease which accumulated through years in one spot. The car drives as was driving before, no issues. The ACDelco ICM I keep as a spare part (GM Genuine Parts 19300922 Ignition Control Module). I'm not sure of course if the project was completed correctly. It would be good if you could make a film about different heat compounds, greases and so on, and their applications in auto mechanics. Practically nothing on you tube. Thank you again.
Hey Pete. So, I have a 65 mustang with a msd 6al and when I start the car it starts but as soon as I turn the key back to shut off the starter the engine just turns off. So I ran the little red wire directly to the battery and it started and kept running fine. Bad thing about that is now I have no way of turning the car off with out removing both cables to the battery. Do you have an idea what it could be?
Your MSD box power is hooked to the starter side of the starter relay instead of switched power
The key doesn’t work on my car so I’m powering it by putting jumper cables straight to the starter motor. can I put a wire or something to the positive post on the ignition coil? Like a battery?
Fix the key, it could be a bad switch or starter relay
How would the MSD work with a inline 6 with points ? Great vid.
It would help alot
@@PetesGarage Thanks for getting back to me.
Mr pete I just recently put a 350 small block Chevy motor in a 84 Olds cutlass it has a MSD system some say it will not work on Oldsmobile it was working fine but I have to unplug my alternator for the car too ruffly shut off and now my car want start it just turns over is it possible the MSD system made my timing jump
All the MSD box does is tell the coil when to fire. It has nothing to do with the make of your car. You have it wired wired wrong somehow
My car car keot running after installing my MSD, I believe I had to put a diode in my wire to the voltage regulator.
Would a MSD ignition work on my 1293cc classic Austin Mini.
Sure, as long as you have a way to trigger it
Pete have a question for you. In all my years i usually see these boxes work, or not work. Working on a car now that breaks up (under load, foot braking or on the road) at around 3000. Have you seen these boxes have issues w something like this issue? Thanks Pete
If the box does not work right, it's usually a mismatch of parts, like wrong distributor with box. Before I dive into the electrical issue I make sure it's not an air/fuel problem. Breaking up at 3000 could mean the distributor signal is not firing the box at the right time.
@@PetesGarage Did find some damage to distributor gear (obviously needs shimming) so hopefully this is the issue. Also thanks for your response.
No damage to the gear. I'm not sure what caused it, but I have an idea
i have a 1988 gmc pick-up 2500 series with the v-6 motor .im not getting any spark to my plugs .was running but stoped during a travel i was on so i changed my battery and altenator distributer cap rotor and moduler and coil and ignition key and last of all the trucks computer brain .What is left that could be my problem not starting dont have the cam sensor or not able to find it NEED HELP ASAP .Im an electrion that needs to get to work .
Could be the distributor itself
Does the msd box works with a conventional electronic ignition set up
It can
What is your feeling on Erson cams?
They're pretty good
Pete - Have you had any familiarity with the Accel DFI error 66 code? I cannot figure out the source of it, Everytime I clear it, I appear immediately with the ignition turned on but engine not running.
Are you using an Accel 6A box?
I have a dumb question. I have msd ignition box and hei distributor. If I hook tach wire into the distributor cap do I even mess with the gray tach wire on the ignition box?
You can use either
@@PetesGarage Thanks!
When do you really need to upgrade your ignition box?300 hp?400?thanks
500
How is the 76 Corvette running with EFI system?
Awesome! He loves it
I will be running the coil positive wire from a Painless add-a-circuit which uses 16 gauge wire. Can I use 16 gauge wire to the ignition coil positive post?
Yes you can!
@@PetesGarage awesome, thank you for the reply!
I have a msd box from msd it has the little male plug at the one end which is where you plug in your tach , well that plug came lose and now the tach wire cannot plug in , is there a wire that comes off the box that I can connect the tach wire to . Thanks
If it's the hard mounted plug and it's broken you'd have to open it up and tap into it.
With some tachs (check documentation first or risk ruining) you can run them off the negative side of the coil wire.
Whats the difference from a magnetic pickup vs a ready to run MSD?
An MSD has a flying reluctor ring with a magnetic pickup. They are the same
Hey pete im fouling just number 2 plug. What could cause that all other plug burn great i have a sbc 406 big cam. And a msd 6al box and distributor could it be a bad box or weak distributor. That would foul just one plug
Fouling with oil?
@@PetesGarage i think its oil. The plug is wet and black i only run car every weekend. To car shows. Its takes maybe the 2nd or third weekend an starts popping. Then i change just number 2 plug
That cylinder probably has leaking rings or valve guide seal
I have a 83 chevy sb engine and am getting no spark. It was running and then it just stopped. I have changed the distributor cap, the coil, the rotor, the ignition control switch and the spark plugs. My distributor is a mechanical HEI distributor. Any ideas of where I can check from here?
Make sure you're getting fuel
Check your power. Specifically check your fusible links. They probably burnt through.
Oops Popular Hot rodding. Not Popular Mechanics. Sorry for the gross error.
Everyone makes mistakes
These aluminum housings for electronics would be more beneficial if it actually helped disipate the heat, even though part of the circuit had a heatsink mounted to a specific component(s), they are nothing more than a protective storage box that traps in the heat, no fan, no ventialtion, heat is the enemy of all electronics and being placed inside a glovebox, even worse IMO.
Good point
Hi Pete! I figured out my stalling from fouled plugs and now another ghost arose! I have msd ignition and was testing a new no spark condition. MSD has magnetic pick up, when I short the purple and green wires with the coil plug on a ground, no spark. However, I figured out by accident if I ground the purple wire only, I get a spark. Does this mean the green wire going in MSD box is the fault? (Im assuming my green wire must be the ground inside msd box)
Any error codes on the box?
@@PetesGarage Not that I can see, its an older 6A box, no LEDs exist on the outside of the box to give a status. Unit has 4 rivets holding it together that I think I can drill out to get inside. The green wire appears to be the negative on the magnetic pickup, so I think by taking the purple to ground and since the MSD fired under this condition, I suspect that green wire either has a break or is disconnected inside the box. I'd hate to drill out the rivets without really understanding if thats the issue. The coil isn't seeing a constant 12V, but I also read this isn't an unusual condition for an inductive ignition system.
I had to take mine apart to see what was wrong, give it a shot
@@PetesGarage I tried, I failed. I found a bad ground, and when I tried to clean the corrosion off the ground pin I forgot I still had battery hooked up. I got a little to liberal cleaning the board...i let the smoke out of it :( Time for a new box!
Ouch
Did I miss the part of you fixing the problem or did you just replace the box,
The box was the problem. They have a history of burning out
Sir i wish if you can install the msd wires so we learn more.. because we didn't see when you install all those wires.
I will
Any ideals on power going in but not out msd 6al
It has to be triggered
@@PetesGaragehey Pete what do you mean? My box is getting power but the orange wire exiting the box and leading to the coil isn’t getting power. Any suggestions? Car cranks. That’s about it
Can I take it the lawnmower ain't normally aspirated?
It is
Hey I have a 1991 toyota camry v6 manual and I replaced my fuel pump spark plug and wires but now car cranks but not start any idea
Coil, could be many things
@@PetesGarage it's Getting spark and pump is running
check the injectors
I have a 6al 6425 and the car runs perfectly fine and just shuts off like someone hit the kill switch and box flashes 5 times and I can restart it and runs fine again till it dies again? Has anyone ever had this problem before? I replaced the coil thinking it was breaking down but same result. Thanks for any advice
It could be overheating.
@Pete's Garage the box overheating? Cause this is the 3rd coil on it and same results. It's just strange Cause there is no stumble or anything just loses spark out of nowhere but fires right back up.
The 5 blinks is the Rev limiter shutting it down
Vehicle needs 4 thing to run don't forget compression
That is true
I like points ,no problems and if stuck on the side of the road,,a screw driver and match book cover will get you back and running. What is wrong about points? With a computer ignition unless you have another you are screwed.
There is nothing wrong with points, as long as your car has them. I can say I have burnt up many sets of points, I have yet to burn up a computer.
Done the book of matches thing. A high roller with a Bic lighter would be SOL!
MSD is a reliable brand of products. Accel is N.F.G.
Probably why Accel is no longer around...lol
I have a msd 12 v coil truck runs but when its runing i have power on the negtive side thats not right is it?
When it's running power will run through the coil
Capacitors don't step up anything. All that a capacitor can do is store energy and release that energy to a load less the amount lost in the capacitor due to leakage.
That's it period. The stepping up part takes place in more complicated area of that box that I don't have the time or desire to go into explaining.
I have 50 years of electronic experience and I design and build high end home stereo systems..
Thanks Ken
I'm lost without balloons...
I'll start working the balloons back in
You did not show how to intall
With how you are banging that box around, it's no wonder why it failed you. You can't beat on electronics like that if you expect them to last.
Thanks Cody
@@PetesGarage you are welcome. We all learn things the hard way sometimes. Hopefully your next one lasts a bit longer.
We don’t live in the 1980’s anymore, stuff is made better
@@2econd428 High voltage in a small space creates a lot of heat. Heat cycles makes wiring brittle. Vibrations can cause brittle wires and solder joints to snap. None of that has changed since the 1980's.
That's why MSD provides rubber vibration isolators and recommends installing the box in an open area where it has room to breathe.
Your on your own guys if you don't have tons of money . Even Summit racing has closed their tech line . Take Can't out of your dictionary today or consider pottery as a hobby . I'm using my rev limiter signal as a shift light signal and cutting my cost's in half . Either buy a 7AL 2 MSD control box and save 50 % of your money or get really inventive with the 6AL2 . LET"S GO BRANDON !
Interesting, thanks my friend
Is not a MSD. it's an ACCEL Brand.
I say that because most people refer to it as an MSD or Spark box
Exact same company. MSD group bought Accel (and other MrGasket brands) in 2015. Subsequently I think MSD was bought by Holley who has an appetite for buying up everything it seems. I think Holley and Edelbrock own almost everything now.
not realy true what it is 12v comes in times the potential from the pick up coil who is by the way a ac/dc magneto/generator normaly a points ignition has a condensor but we are dealing with a trazistorized ignition module it converts ac to dc puls called a analog digital converter so you have for exampel 400v × 12v so you get that big voltage those potentials literaly slam ore hit ich other! that the true story about ignition coils thats why there are 2 sides on a ignition coil changing values of condensers and wire resistances and other generator components will efect spark stranght the older cars worked with out baterry they used generators/alternators to produce a potential! clasic magneto ignition it is some what altered changes but the principel of ignition systems are still maggy's plain and simpel electronic guys will tell you the same thing that ignition system information is wrong represented magnetism is some thing lot diferent than described by sientists nice video any way just poiting out some things that is the original way how ignition is created nothing changed after the magneto still evry thing is the same those computers are there as a replacment for stering coloms advancing and retarding timing ignition nothing more nothing less plazma ignition and dual ignition is only a exeption evry other ignition is based on the same thing
Thanks for the comment