The Geth Heretics - Rewrite or Destroy? (A Moral Analysis)
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- čas přidán 31. 07. 2024
- In this video, we’ll be analyzing the decision to rewrite or kill the Geth Heretics during Legion’s loyalty mission in Mass Effect 2. We’ll primarily be looking at this from a moral and roleplaying perspective, but I’ll also touch on consequences for Mass Effect 3.
MASS EFFECT 3 - PEACE BETWEEN THE GETH AND QUARIANS
• Mass Effect 3 - How to...
BRING DOWN THE SKY - ALL CHOICES AND ENDINGS
• BRING DOWN THE SKY - A...
BRINGING LEGION TO RECRUIT TALI ON HAESTROM (RARE SCENE)
• RARE Mass Effect 2 Sce...
0:00 Introduction
1:38 Legion Tells Us About the Problem
2:39 Legion Presents the Rewrite Option
3:42 Making the Choice: Rewrite vs Destroy
4:29 Is It Moral to Rewrite the Heretics?
6:47 Is It Better to Destroy the Heretics?
7:54 Mass Effect 3 Consequences
8:32 Conclusion
There’s generally two ways that most of us play Mass Effect when it comes to making choices. The first way is to roleplay and choose the option that you feel best fits your character or that you just like the best in the moment. The second is to choose the option which creates a better outcome in subsequent games based on what we know will happen.
Many of you watching this video already know how the decision about the Geth Heretics impacts events in Mass Effect 3. And you’ll decide the Heretics’ fate based on that clairvoyant knowledge of the future, which Shepard, the character, doesn’t have access to in the moment. I know this is how I’ve typically treated this quest after my first playthrough.
So I wanted to do something a bit different for this video. Instead of just talking about how your choice in this quest impacts events in Mass Effect 3, I wanted to focus on the decision from a moral standpoint. Specifically what is the most moral thing to do in this quest - rewrite the Geth Heretics or simply destroy them?
We get this quest from Legion shortly after recovering him from the Derelict Reaper. He’ll tell us about the Geth Heretics, which are essentially a splinter group of Geth who decided to worship Sovereign. We spent a lot of time fighting them in the first game. The Heretics have developed a virus that they plan to deploy against other Geth to eventually convert them all to side with the Reapers as well. Legion wants us to go to their headquarters and destroy the virus.
But when we arrive at the station, Legion presents us with another option - rewrite the heretics to make them adopt the same opinions as the Geth consensus.
At first glance, rewriting the Heretics seems like the best choice in Legion's loyalty mission. The Heretics will reunite with the Geth Consensus and make them stronger. Moreover, they get to continue living.
But if they’ve been rewritten are they truly still alive in the same way? We’re essentially making an executive decision to change their thoughts and perspective without their input or consent. We’re changing who they are.
So what about the destroy option? At first glance, this seems like a worse option than rewriting the Heretics because we’re simply wiping them out. They’ll cease to exist in any form. However, they’ve already shown themselves to be our enemies and they have no qualms about attacking us.
By destroying the Heretics, we’re protecting our allies in the Geth consensus, as well as anyone else the Heretics may hurt in the future - such as the Quarians. If we were to just rewrite them - is it right to let a dangerous enemy live, considering they may cause even more death and destruction in the future? - Hry
So... destroy, yeah?
Agreed. They can't be trusted
I think you get better war assets from the geth in me3 if you rewrite them
@@stephenegan784 Yes, that's missing.
More units=more assets
@@stephenegan784 On the assumption that you save them or both races
I tend to destroy them as well.
From a strategic point of view, Destroying is better as at that time, all the Geth that believed in worshiping the Reapers were already in that faction you're fighting. You're targeting all of them in one strike rather than welcoming them back into the fold and succumbing to the logistical nightmare of which of them would fall back to worshiping the Reapers again.
On that note, for ME3 the choice does not matter much. Rewrite them and you get more Geth assets but less Quarian ones, and destroy them for more Quarian assets but less Geth ones. There is no net gain/loss between options, it all evens out to the same number.
“Windows are structural weaknesses, Geth do not use them.”
Shot at Microsoft lol
They could have cameras they can remotely use outside of the ship. Since they are not sleeping and they are probably more advanced than my PC all geth could look at all cameras at the same time and see enemy real fast
Geth - Space Apple
Plus, Legion is using "sudo-command", a Linux command.
Neither do military submarines and for the same reason. Note: some tourist submersibles have windows so passengers can see the fish and coral reefs, etc. Btw, I only mention it because if not some smartass would almost certainly point it out.
I've found Jack, of all people, provides the most clarity on the morals of this decision, should you bring her with you for this mission.
Maybe Big Dan should do a video with different companions and show their thoughts on this choice
Not to rob a video from Big Dan, but what does she say?
@@johnfahrenkrug8217 Jack says: "wow, great choices, genocide or brainwashing. If you screwed with my head, made me nod and smile at everything... I'd rather you blem my head off. Let me die as me."
And I agree that Jack is one of the best lines (while I think Tali got the worse one in this case)
I just couldn't stand fighting with her. Shock wave was the most useless move and that's one of her main moves.
@@Jburneyjr it's great at the levels with lots of husks coming at you. Basically just keep spamming it to instant kill them all
This is one decision where I feel it should not have a Paragon vs. Renegade points. It's too muddied to say which is better: wiping out a faction, or forcing your beliefs onto them
Even the game itself seemed to be confused on how to align the choices within the Paragon vs Renegade morality system -- in a mid-mission conversation, Shep gets Paragon points for commenting that re-writing is unethical, and yet at the mission's conclusion, he gets Paragon points for re-writing them.
And then in ME3, it's the nominal Renegade resolution for Legion's loyalty mission in ME2 which best aids the Paragon resolution for the geth and quarian conflict.
smh
@@CognizantCheddar ik what u mean lmao I was going for a paragon playthrough and I finished the game with half renegade and full paragon💀 after some convos I was like how’d I even get renegade from that!? after playing ME1 it was more simple
@@CognizantCheddar uts because the mid mission comment is from shephards organic point of view. By the end of the mission legion explains that its nothing like brainwashing and his platform is slightly in favour of rewriting
@@willbaker6532 But, ironically, Legion is wrong -- he just doesn't yet understand his own nascent, evolving free will as a geth, and that re-writing the heretics is indeed a violation of that free will.
As becomes clear in ME3, when BioWare themselves finally seemed to make up their own minds about it.
I'm sorry to say this, but I think slavery is preferable to genocide. At least you're alive, and maybe in the future you'll have the means to obtain both freedom and safety.
If you continue to press Legion for his opinion later in the quest he will say that he hasn't yet made a consensus, but tell you that more programs lean towards rewriting than destroying the heretics. Since we are organic and don't have a full understanding of the geth, I use this as a way to help make an informed decision. As Legion slightly leans towards rewriting, but is unsure himself.
Only downside there is literally 2 more units prefer rewrite over destruction, that’s too close for any major decision like this
I choose rewrite for the same reason you mentioned here. Legion says they lean more towards rewriting. So rewriting it is. I like letting my crew make their decisions whenever possible. Always thinking about the bigger picture too. Why not have an allied geth army to help out?
@@dominicmorones8314 it becomes a yin and yang type of question, do you view this from an organic perspective or a synthetic one? from a synthetic one, this is just putting a load of data files into a collective conscious, nothing more.
From an organic one, it's mass brainwashing, like indoctrination, forcing a people to follow your beliefs and erasing everything they were.
The thing that sealed it for me was when Legion said "we will integrate their experiences, and all will become stronger". To me that means whatever caused them to worship the Reapers could also spread to other Geth. Even if these specific programs don't relapse after being re-written, it doesn't mean new programs can't come to the same conclusion. It's like a germ and I treated it like that.
I don’t really think computers work like that
@@juliet4093 To be fair, they also don't develop sentience and construct mobile platforms that can shoot sniper rifles...yet. :)
There’s counter-arguments even to that point though. Mid-way through the quest, Legion’s platform discovers that the geth “heretics” have spyware installed within the geth consensus. Legion is completely blindsided by this, having never even considered that the “heretics” might not be acting earnestly and in good faith. This indicates to me that the “heretics” possess a counterintelligence program more sophisticated that just the virus alone, and that destroying the “heretics” militarily likely wouldn’t be the end of their pro-Reaper suicide cult.
The writers really outdid themselves with this quest imo, it’s almost the perfectly unsolvable moral quandary. Icing on the cake is the subtle implication from Legion that both might be equally the “least bad” option, since the consequences involve the lives of an entire civilization, and since his processes are split 50.08% to 49.91% (tied within a rounding error).
“Behind this mask there is more than just flesh. Behind this mask there is an idea. And ideas are bulletproof.”
This is morally probably the thorniest choice in ME. Unfortunately, knowing what gives you the best result in ME3 sort of undermines it.
Well if you do everything else right you can still achieve peace so it doesn't really matter
@@jerkopatrik not really with the ending we get its fucking pointless. I love ME but knowing how 3 ends it's just bullshit ending
@@dethmaidin then one could argue that the entire series is pointless. I would disagree; it's more about the journey itself. Yes the conclusion is crap but the trilogy itself is great
I think they are referring to the “red” ending I believe since it wipes all AI from the galaxy, if that is the case I agree since the choice stops there and doesn’t continue on like say the Korgan curing the genophage.
@@Dralle86 it gives you war assets for better cinematics at the start of the last mission and if you chose "Red" than your Shepard may live
I chose the Destroy option, mostly because you can't convince the Heretic Geth to change their Ideals through dialogue, They only use violence when confronted with a different opinion. Also, I can only think of Blues (Proto Man from Mega man) when he was given a similar option.
They sound like space Democrats.
Yeah it’s also hypocritical to rewrite them because the point of this mission was to stop them from rewriting the other Geth. The Geth heretics also chose to be with the reapers, the other Geth allowed them to make that decision, so just taking away their decision like that is wrong, on our part and the Geth. they were also brainwashed by the reapers, maybe not indoctrinated, but the reapers were definitely taking advantage of them, as evidenced by how they were just willing to take their own peoples free will away, FOR THE REAPERS, so they were already being controlled against their will. Both options are terrible though.
From a moral perspective alone I feel that destroying the heretics is the best course of action. Free will should not be infringed upon, there is no good place to draw the line. If you would change the thoughts of a terrorist to stop them from causing destruction, why not do the same to other criminals. At what point does a government decide that everyone's thoughts should be manipulated. Far to many governments already infringe on people's freedoms to the point of tyranny. And although someone shouldn't be killed for their beliefs either, some actions warrant lethal repercussions, for both the prevention of the perpetrator's further crimes, and the discouragement of others to follow their path.
I like this style of video big D, lots of moments ME could do with big picture analysis and theory
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed!
“Big D” is crazy😂
Remember of joker imitating legion when he talks about windows hahah so funny
Here’s something to ponder - if rewriting is morally problematic, is using the AI hack power also morally problematic?
Wouldn’t shooting somebody be morally problematic? Or setting them on fire? Or flinging them in the air with your mind?
@@windwaker105 not in combat in this game’s universe! The issue most people have with rewriting the Geth (initially) is that it seems way too similar to brainwashing. However, Legion states that AIs themselves don’t see rewriting them as wrong, since they are not biological creatures so the ethics applicable to biological life doesn’t exactly translate over to them.
That said, in this particular case, rewriting is problematic because the Geth programs are neural networks. Rewriting these programs alter how these neural networks respond to certain memories and stimuli, but all the memories of the heretics are left intact - including memories of them engaging in combat with organics. Such memories might persuade some of the “good” Geth neural networks to learn to become hostile. That is a chance I don’t want to take. So, I always destroy them.
@@windwaker105 bruh we Drakengard now
@@brainconqueror8095 That's some 4D chess.
Only gays say problematic
One of the things I loved about this mission is that you can ask Legion what he and the other Geth in his platform think as their his people and at the end of it, even Legion and all the other Geth programs within him were split 50/50 on what to do. It really made you...or at least me think that if Legion being a Geth himself couldn't agree on what to do, that's really a difficult decision to make.
What I enjoy about moral dilemma like these in the game is that we get to see that even when we make decisions based on our own morality, we often see later that the consequences of that moral action are often horrifyingly bad.
There are also clues hidden between the lines too that hint at the right choice, that integration of experience line specifically.
In ME1 if you spare Rana Thanoptis it bites you in the ass in ME3.
Love your videos man! Keep up the phenomenal work. Definitely getting me excited for the legendary edition
I accidentally got both geth and quariabs on my first play through. Didn’t learn it was hard until I was told later. I just made decisions based on what I had learned so far
Please big Dan can you do all the outcomes on peak 15
From a role-play perspective it’s kind of the same logic I apply in the final ME3 choice. I vehemently refuse to ever take the synthesis option because it’s forcing a change on sentient life forms (both organic and non-organic) without taking their relatively personal choices in to consideration. The heretics made the choice of their own free will. Destruction is a (albeit unpleasant) consequence of that choice.
The Heretics created this virus that imposes one's will over another's choices. It seems to me a natural consequence having it backfire and affect them.
Totally agree. There is nothing worse than making unharmful changes to someone without their consent. I prefer to murder them and their whole species, it's much more morale to me.
Yeah and killing them all is definitely taking their opinions into consideration.
Someone asked me for my opinion on this years ago, And that is how I got into Mass Effect
so what is your opinion?
I had no idea rewriting lessened the chance of peace between the two, I've always made peace after rewriting. Figured it'd give nore war assets
not really. Regardless of which choices you pick, you more or less get the same total amount. The choices make the Quarians or the Geth lose a certain amount of war assets
The best thing about Mass Effect is really MAKES you think on the choices you make because thats another great reason why Mass Effect defines the perfect RPG and drama game. Your actions and choices matter and you the player decides it.
Until ME3 comes around with that ending.
Still better than Andromeda though.
It's one of these moments in ME where you just can't make an informed decision... How are we supposed to even understand what it means to "rewrite a Geth"?? We have absolutely no idea how the synthetics think, we are served just some vague analogs to human behavior and psychology. And Legion doesn't help at all by just backing out of the problem. That's why you never feel the weight of the decision. It just turns into a google search for which option gives you most paragon or renegade points.
Well I just destroyed them without a second thought
The problem I have with the rewrite option is that it is basically the synthetic version of brainwash. We're not persuading the heretics to join the other geth, we're forcing them to join the other geth by giving them that virus. It is unethical whichever way you look at it, machines or not. I always destroy them as they chose to ally with the reapers, so they can get the same treatment as sovereign did. Besides death is better than brainwash.
@@emmanuel4989 yh I agree but my other reason for doing it is they were robots
I always end up trusting Legion's vote count and end up rewriting the Heretics. He is the one to make the best decision and he says that 573 processes voted for rewriting whereas 571 voted for destroying. Legion has a total of 1183 processes so I guess 39 of them are just undecided. Still - a majority is a majority.
@@bzqp2 yh but why would you trust a geth who you have just met when in the last game they were helping destroy the world
You get the same amount of war assets either way. You’ll end up with +150 Geth if rewritten and +150 Quarian if destroyed.
The only advantage the destroying the Heretics is the extra “point” towards Geth/Quarian peace, but as you identify in the video, this is not necessary for this outcome.
There are only 17 million quarians left out of billions so a small number of geth programs being deleted is a no brainer.
SO hard to chose. My first playthrough I assumed "Rewrite" was the Paragon option since it was at the top. "Changing what they are" reminds me of the ending to where you make everyone part synthetic, which I never truly liked, but I also assumed it was a Paragon option. But I was reminded of the option of destroying or sparing the Rachni. I wanted to save as many lives as possible as a Paragon. I thought by rewriting we was setting them free of their indoctrination, but it sounds like just another form of indoctrination. To me, it all boils down to this: Kill them all, or make them good guys. I guess I wanna make them good guys. I keep it simple like that so I don't feel as conflicted. lol
I always forget that Mass Effect requires a giant list of what to do and not to do to get the best outcomes 😂
I always rewrite them, because I like the thought of geth stepping in and fight the reapers for the quarians because of their weak immune system. But the quarians sadly looses lots of lifes in the war in ME3 before Shepard manage to break peace between the geth and quarians. And according to the mass effect fandom site, the geth fleet war asset will receive a significant bonus (+150, 450 total) in ME3. However, destruction of the heretics provides similar penalty (-150, only 150 total).
I have also had the mentality that rewriting them only break the heretics from the brainwashing of the reapers.
So, rewriting the heretics for a few loss of quarian lives, for the greater good in the long run works best for me. We can't save everyone, but we can save many more. So we'll keep fighting for the ones we lost.
Btw, love your work Big D
I’m just about to do this mission for the umpteenth time, and have always chosen rewrite. This video actually convinced me to go with destroy. Thanks for such a well thought out look at the choices!
This moral dilemma was definitely super interesting when I encountered it on my own playthrough. I agree that destroying them is more moral than rewriting them in and of itself, but this choice is not an isolated scenario. The reason I believed in my own playthrough that rewriting was the best moral choice all things considered, is simply due to the fact that more geth were needed to build a bigger resistance against the reapers. Defeating the reapers with as much force as possible given all available options was the only responsibility in my mind when saving the universe. If Legion could disagree with the heretics, this meant that even if the heretics went back to their old ways after the rewrite, I would find a way to organically bring them back to legion’s side as the heretics were just one step away from being like Legion and not the other way around. I assumed all this without knowing what would happen in mass effect 3. It just all seemed although messy, completely logical. I trusted Legion, in other words, as he gave me hope for all heretics to turn towards him.
These videos are holding me over until the Legendary Edition releases, thank you.
I pick rewrite at my first go but sense learning more I rather destroy. It’s better to be destroy rather than be to change by force
I think Legion makes it clear that one shouldn't apply organic reasoning upon synthetics. Of course, this changes in ME3 but I still hold to that.
I always saw my main Shepard as a pragmatic Renegade; she'd spare an unarmed or surrendered enemy (or not intervene when it's a companion making the call since it's their business, such as Garrus sniping Sidonis or Miranda shooting Niket, etc.) but will blast someone in the head as soon as they pick up a gun and point it.
To her, the Geth are machines and applying organic morality is pointless. In her mind, rewriting the geth is no different than resetting a computer to suit your need as it was meant to-but even then, there's no guarantee it'll remain in perfect functionality in the longterm. To destroy them would be to diminish the geth threat, even if it's by a slight measure. When it came to resolving the Quarian-Geth conflict though, she goes with diplomacy between the two because two fleets are better than one when dealing with the Reapers. But the geth are still just machines, no matter how advanced their intelligence may be.
Could you do a video about which of mass effect 3's endings is the most moral one?
If you will choose the destroy ending in the end of mass effect 3 then go with the destroy the heretics option. Whats the point of upgrading the geth if they will die anyway with the destroy the reapers option.
0:06 This is visually one of the coolest looking custom armors for Shepard that I've personally seen.
Being brainwashed isn't a 2nd chance, it's like when a comic hero mind controls a villian to do their bidding, so I say to hell with the head lamps!
Picking the rewrite option isn’t much different than reaper indoctrination
I agree on that point to some extent but do we need to be better than our enemys to be a savior or do we only need better as our enemys to be a hero?
Geez this unexpected video made me rethink all my paragon/renegade decisions right now...😅
@@CRYOKnox Given the fact that the reapers want to commit genocide on a galactic scale, we’re still morally superior
No
@@dagothurik1815 It is quite different. When reapers indoctrinate, they use the indoctrinated species to do their bidding. They have no free will. Rewriting heretics simply frees them from reaper control. They still have free will to do as they please.
You forget, when the quarians force the war with the geth in 3 , the geth go to the reapers out of desparation, Legion even admits it.
If you listen to his dialog after the mission he clarifies why this happened.
I think of these geth as nothing else than a cult who want to force their way on other. The reapers repurposed them, you doing the same so they won't spread their so called belief isn't exactly bad.
Yes! Quarians caused first war with them AND second. Quarians are unreliable and can't be trusted
Except for Tali of course
The Geth sided with the Reapers twice. They have never tried to negotiate peace. Not even with any other organics and they didn’t need to live on Rannoch anyways, yet they claim to not hold hostilities against the Quarians. Occupying Rannoch was just asking for war
Legion does state Quarrians never seeked coexistence or desired it, if victory was possible the Quarrians always attacked.
Admiral Korris even admits they provoked the geth after agreeing with the council to never attack them again.
And the geth in ME1 were nothing but cultists not independent geth.
So I'd say only 1 time they went to the reapers, just because they had no choice but survival.
I'm doing my first runthrough of the trilogy right now and did this mission for the first time last night. When I got to the choice I spent 10 minutes pacing through my bedroom weighing the options. Ultimately I chose rewrite cause if the Heritics had the ability to go against the consensus in the first place then rewriting them doesn't necessarily mean you're taking away their ability to choose. Great mission.
Next video about Rana Thanoptis
Morally speaking, either decision would be considered legitimate. On one hand, killing your enemy who worship genocidal machine gods who are intent on murdering all advanced life in the galaxy, is not an immoral act. Rewriting the geth, although considered immoral brain washing, must be considered when their view points have led them to agree with galactic Hitler. In that case, if the galaxy is willing to coexist with the geth- which they can be given enough effort- then their logic is immoral in the first place. The act of rewriting their protocol to not murder all life in the galaxy- can be considered a reasonable moral act. Just my thoughts.
Does it have impact on me3 if you don’t do legions loyalty mission ?
I always play heroic Shepards but in this case i don't agree with the game considering the rewrite option as paragon and the destroy as renegade.
One of the big themes of ME (especially ME3) is if we can consider synthetic beings as really alive; if we think at this scene in that prospective, rewriting is not so bad if we are basically considering the geth as just a tool, a computer program with a bug that should be fixed. But if you think that AIs can actually develop into living beings, than they should have the right to choose their own path and rewriting them seems a really evil option. It's not much different than reaper indoctrination: you are messing with their mind and personality to make them act as you see fit, while making them believe that their course of action is actually the product of their will.
For this reason i always go for the destruction path: the choice they have made (i.e. serving the reapers) is wrong from my point of view and that makes them my enemies, so i have to destroy them to keep my friends and allies safe, but i still respect the fact that they made that decision for themselves and i don't think i have the right to modify their will to make them align with my views.
It’s a really difficult one, because synthetic life is fundamentally different to organic life (a theme explored heavily in the series). Should we base our choice on our morals, or theirs?
I see some people don't agree with the paragon/renegade labeling of the choices. Keep in mind what Dr Chakwas said about your outlook in life and how it effects your scaring; be a little more optimistic rather than realistic. Rewriting the Geth is you being optimistic that they'll rejoin the collective and never bother anyone. But realistically, being rewritin is no way to live life and it would be better to be put out of your misery.
That is still a vast oversimplification of the paragon and renegade system and there's arguements to be made that it should be switched. However I would argue this is exactly the kind of choice where a binary moral system simply fails completely. This is an utterly grey choice...The Geth are themselves divided evenly, If you consider them machines then you could see a threat to be eliminated or an advantage to be gained, if you consider them living beings either choice is their death the end of themselves as themselves. There is no superior moral choice here. Practicality favors either choice from Shepard's view.
It's a perfectly controversial morally grey choice. The system should've been that this is an exception no renegade or paragon points given for either...Or better yet give both earning more or less of one back on the Normandy by having Shepard explain why they made the choice they did to Legion.
It's a easy choice for me,both options are immoral to them,but if I rewrite them they can help us rebuild a better Galaxy in the end of the war.It's the best choice in terms of the overall situation
Great video Dan. On another note, who believes there will be some sort of surprise/addition to the trilogy's ending in the Legendary Edition?
I hope they will include some of stuff that was cut in original games
They confirmed they changed nothing on the ending
Any impact on War Assets??
May 14th can't wait
I’m a little confused why the destroy option makes peace easier.
The way peace plays out is you allow Legion to upload the Reaper code upgrade into the rest of the Geth, and then you convince the Quarian fleet to stand down and surrender instead of continuing an attack that has become suicidal for them.
If the heretic Geth were rewritten, then the Geth are stronger, which should make it easier for the Quarians to be convinced that they cannot succeed.
Because rewriting the Heretics damages Quarians assets as much as it strengthens Geth assets. Destroy gives the Quarians 150 more assets while taking away 150 from the Geth. Rewrite takes 150 away from the Quarians and gives 150 to the Geth.
More Quarians die if the Heretics are rewritten, making it harder to accept the idea of peace. More civilians die, more soldiers die, more homes are destroyed. Rewriting makes peace harder because more Quarians are angry at the Geth due to losing friends and family and Gerrel has to deal with more of his people dying, making him less open to the idea of peace.
How much this decision affect mass effect 3 war assets ?
Yes, very interesting quandary!
Rewrite was my main feeling to do.. I BUT I also 'feel ' that I was freeing them from the 'slavery 'of the Reapers.
It's not a great thing either way...
Both options are pretty terrible but I chose destroy. I felt it was better than taking their free will away, especially when the Geth went through so much to gain it. There is a lot of things I’ve said about it in other comments:)
hey Big Dan what if in ME1 you have udina make a new council of only humans and then you go to the bit in ME3 where you stand off against the virmire survivor? are they all human then too?
No, they kinda retconned that ending. You get a new Council in ME, all the original species but new individuals.
Is there any difference in war assets in me3?
After going through the trilogy for the first time, I compared that to the options that would give me the best results in each game. Since they were almost the same, I've not had many variations in the way I play. The only changes that would get me nore assets in 3 would be sabotaging the geno cure with wreav in charge, and there are obvious reasons why I don't wanna do that
So Wich is Better Destroy or Rewrite?
If only we could romance Legion 😣
I'd rather dance with legion but you do you
@@H3lios227 I'd rather do Legion
@@BrassCandy gay
Does rewriting or destroying the Geths impacts the war asset from Mass Effect 3? If i remember correct, in my plathrough (i rewrote them) Geth forces were worth 810 and Quarian were only 490. Does these numbers change if you destroy the heretics?
it happens the inverse. The Geth loses asset while the Quarian gets more
@@granmastersword Ok thanks
Saren’s line “Is submission not preferable to extinction” perfectly encapsulates this moral quandary. The answer is not so clear-cut as it was for the Reapers.
I always saw it as killing them all being the morally good option. If they aren't free to decide their own fate then they aren't really alive. Same as us.
I was on the rewrite side, but this sort of swung me towards destroy. I have trouble picking ruthless options in games.
Assuming you make peace on ranoch between quarian and geth regardless, what is the war asset difference between rewriting and destroying?
Its mostly affects well-prepared your armed forces by thend of ME3 will be. If you rewrote the geth, the geth forces you get will be stronger because the heretics joined the other geth. However, this will result in the quarian forces being weaker, as they took more losses because they fought more geth. If you destroyed the heretics, its the other way around. The geth take losses because they didn't get the heretic reinforcements and therefore suffered greater losses because of the quarians.
Hoping that in mass effect legendary they fix the final fleet attack scene.... Where they always say geth fleet reporting
Another way to weigh it up would be to judge the actions of the Heretics. Do you believe it is wrong for the Heretics to try rewrite the True Geth? If so why?
Watch the movie A clockwork Orange. The same moral question is pondered.
Spoilers: Alex and his friends like to cause mayhem. Violence, rape and they even commit
murder.
Alex gets sentenced to life in prison. However 2 years into his sentence. he is offered an alternative. Spend 2 weeks in a treatment facility and he will be released.
He is then subject to two weeks of intensive Pavlovian style therapy. He is forced to watch rape and snuff movies while they force him drugs to make him feel seek.
After attempting suicide because a previous victim forced him to listen to the same music the therapists forced him to listen to. The government decides to reverse the therapy and abandon the project.
I always disagreed with this at first. As I get older I realise that even monsters. The worst kind of people, should not be forced to change what is inside them.
I still choose rewrite. We have a war to win.
Seeing legion do the robot dance made my day today
ME Legendary Edition is dropping on my birthday, I already have a little gift to myself. 🤗
I chose to Rewrite them. For a few reasons
1. To slap the Reapers in the face
2. Give them a second chance
3. Legion's people become stronger as all Quarian and Geth War Assets in ME3 are given a 10% buff. (ie. if an asset is 1000 and you rewrite them in ME2, the asset will be 1100 after the conflict)
I always thought rewrite was best than this channel changed my mind
Do you know how much the Geth add to military strength in ME 3 if they're not rewritten? In the playthrough I'm doing now they add a total of 815 if they are rewritten. The Geth fleet is specifically what changes based on if they're rewritten or destroyed. The Geth fleet itself is 450 if they are rewritten. I'd like to know for a full renegade playthrough.
My total military strength is 8248. Minimum for the best ending is allegedly 7800. I'm a little stunned by how narrow the margins are. Skip one dlc like Omega or Leviathan and I would have been screwed🤦♂️ I'm a completionist when it comes to gaming most of the time but I could easily have seen myself missing out on 448 points of military strength worth of side quests and delivery quests😬
I believe in second chances so I rewrite them
Yeah same
I always destroy them. Brainwashing them to believe an ideology they rejected feels wrong. They didn't choose to rejoin the rest of the geth, they chose to work with the reapers and become terrorists. I've got no problem wiping out the batarian terrorist throughout the series, the heretics are no different.
Rewriting the Geth is basically like indoctrinating them.
@@emmanuel4989 you got a point here. Like shepard said , he wouldn't brainwash an Organic.
You forcefully Chance who their were . So either way you" killed" them in one way or the other.
The real flaw is , how these two option are labled as Paragon and Renegate. ;-/
Fundamentally changing someone is not giving a second chance. It is destroying a personality and replacing it with another. If the geth are not "alive" then it's just resetting software. If the geth are "alive" it is killing that geth and putting another being in that body. It seems to me the virus does kill them as I see the geth as "living" so either option is death. I destroy them as it is what I would want for me if I had the option.
I love how Joker does that robot thing without words.
Rewriting is essentially the same as indoctrination. Which seems like an obvious comparison, and is why I was pissed I got renegade points for destruction after I made a considered decision on my first play through.
Nah they’re synthetics. Legion even mentions that geth don’t experience moral dilemmas or emotions as organics do. Rewriting them is no different than reprogramming a computer. At least until ME3 when the Reaper code is uploaded to each Geth unit, and they’re truly free
Thanks
Thanks.
My very first playthrough, as a Paragon, I actually thought it was more "moral" to rewrite rather than destroy. Because at least they're still alive, right?
Wasn't 'til later I realized how wrong that was.
I don’t think that’s wrong at all, especially since strengthening the geth is a good idea IMO
I don't remember which squadmate mentions that re-rewriting them takes away their individuality and that makes sense.
Also when you bring in Samara in this mission, what she says is basically the idea of synthesis in ME3 ending
It’s Jack
I'm with Jack on this one, if there's no choice aside from rewrite or destroy, then I'm going with destroy.
I'm curious, what are the ramifications in ME3 if you don't do Legion's Loyalty Mission?
Then you won't be able to make peace between the Geth and the Quarians. Legion must be loyal in one of the requirements needed to make peace.
Some points to consider not mentioned in the video. When you talk to legion about what his geth faction want, there is a very slim majority un favor of rewriting (543-541 or something like that if i remembet correctly). I found this little tidbit important, because ultimately you should consider what the geth want in making a major desicion like this that affects their people. While ME3 confirms rewriting doesnt change the majority of the heretics desicion to join the reapers, you really cant know in ME2. Just like saving the batarian Balak in Me1 implies he will continue terrorist activities, but in me3 he gives shepard the remaining batarian fleet if you choose the paragon options. But like Dan said, i really dont think there is a clear cut better moral desicion here, which made the mass effect triology so good in my opinion.
Man you just gotta love Jeff Monroe
Does destroy or rewrite change your readiness value?
If you make peace between the quarians and geth - no! It is just 450 war assets with the quarians or Geth. If you cannot make peace however, it does.
interesting to note here too, Legion's eye things are in the "emotional" position in the destroy variant but aren't in the rewrite variant which could mean so much
Barring the obvious bias against destroying members of his own species (and the ambiguity of Legion growing into his individuality while still being connected to the collective) he probably sees reintegrating the heretics as a net positive as in that case the organics have more fighters and together with the geth can get more invaluable information about the reapers and no one has to die
The virus' effect also seems a bit more vague in description and its use considering you say that saving the heretics results in some of them rebelling anyway, kinda wish the game gave us some sort of visual signifier (or major event in 3) that fleshed out the effects of the virus cause from the sound of it Legion and the geth seem to view getting rewritten as not a huge deal and considering they run on robot logic one has to wonder How different it would be for them, if it all
I don't know, I mean you could look at it from a moral standpoint but the geth change more times than you think. think of it as a constant upload and download situation. they may be more advanced than other machines but initially they were just synthetic labor. before the uprising it was shown that they were willing to rewrite themselves in order to please the quarians. the only reason they keep as they are is most likely due to their belief that reconciliation is impossible
so yeah I don't see either choice to be more ethically correct
i always rewrite on legion's mission.
I almost always go full paragon in ME but this is one of the few renegade options I choose.
You are the best
Yeah always destroy because in my opinion it's worse to brainwash them then killing them. To quote what Cortana say in the Mass Effect/Halo crossover fanfic ''The Spartan Effect'': ''How'd you feel if you woke up suddenly as an entirely different person without any thought that something was wrong? That's a murder all the same.''
That's a cool crossover idea. Were Chief and Cortana in the ME universe or vice versa?
@@ashtonpeterson4618 In that story it was Chief and Cortana that ended up in the ME world after Halo 3. Well there are many halo/mass effect storys out there to read. Most of them are shit or extreme halo fanboy wank but there is a few good ones written by people that can to a compelling story. Can recommend a few one's if you want that? :)
If you want to recommend the first one you mentioned I might check it out. Thanks
@@ashtonpeterson4618 Can't send the link here but just google ''The Spartan Effect Gatekeeper333'' and you should find it. But if you want the best written story i would suggest ''All the stars'' by BlueWay aka Matthew Nguyen who is a professional writer and are the guy that wrote for the game project wingman.
@@northland7885 thanks
I think of it like this, if you rewrite them you essentially kill who they are and you make something new. So in my opinion you create life from the corpses of the heretics. So I'd say rewrite is better.
My first playthrough ever was quite recently and I rewrote the heretics and still made piece with the quarian and the geth.
The comparison I came to was a split personality disorder. The Geth are not individual entities as we think of the term, but it could be argued that the Geth race as a whole is a singular entity. Rewriting the heretics to rejoin them to the "true" geth is more akin to bringing the split personalities together than brainwashing someone. And Legion seemed more on board with rewrite than destroy if you question him in that first convo.
That said, the first time I played this mission I had Tali and the way she asked the question made me think the moral question was whether or not we could trust the Geth in the future. And I figured that the true Geth were not going to be an issue re: the Reapers.
On my first playthrough I rewrote them and still united the geth and quarians via renegade option. Honestly I feel like there's a argument both ways but I'm mostly for sparing the geth in general because they really got the short end of the stick
This is one choice I feel should not have been seen as a Paragon or Renegade choice as depending on who you are and the ethics you believe in Destroying them could be more Paragon as brainwashing could be seen as a form of slavery and thus more renegade, for some people this situation can be seen as one with no "right" answer.
That's a big issue in almost every decision in ME. I remember my shock when the decision to pull back the Alliance fleets during the Sovereign fight to focus on the Reaper was served as a main renegate moment of the game... Even with Joker cutting the comms to Destiny Ascension. Well. Want to be a paragon - just click the top button all the time... :P
This was always to me a coin toss. Morally this is a tough decision. Do you kill all of them or brain wash them for your own needs. It's a tough choice and I can't 100% say which is the best decision.
It's basically a moral dilemma of "Would you brain wash or genocide your enemies if a friend said please?"
In my first run i rewrote them and in most of my subsequent runs did this too. Do too my playstyle i didn't noticed that it negativly influenced the peace talks in ME3 to rewrite them. I am however uneasy about the rewrite option as i am with the forced synthesis...
On a great picture it may look good but atrocities are atrocities and who ever takes "the right" to do so is kicking all others rights...
On the other hand we need to make decisions that may prefer the bigger picture over the rights... Also in question do i have to grant people the rights they would deny us/me just to be on "the moral highground" if my injustice prevents further damage...
I realy have to rethink this in my actual run if i proceed after ME1.
This reminds me of an Episode of Babylon 5, "The Quality of Mercy" in which a convicted murder is sentenced to receive a complete mindwipe or as referred to in the show as "Death of Personality". Much of the show reflects on the moral implications and consequences of this punishment. The show does a great job of showing the complexity and impacts of this decision. From characters who must do their duty, despite their moral objection, to a character who was traumatized to learn that he himself received "Death of Personality' and us not who he thought he was, and finally to characters who were victimized by the offender and how they react to seeing convicted after the mindwipe and dealing with the person standing before them is no longer the person who committed the crime.
I'm like Legion. I can't come to a decsion, it's difficult. Primarily, I want to rewrite them for additional war assets in ME3, but I know that I will have to work overtime to make sure I do all Ranoch side-quests carfully to increase the chance of convincing the Quarian Admirals to cease fire so that Geth and Quarian peace can be achived. But like Dan says, I would be doing this for my own personal gain. Destroy, still not sure. I think for the sake of my playthrough of the L.E I'll go with rewrite.
I personally rewite and never have a problem with the peace option because I do all scanning of the planets per main mission so my paragon/reputation is always high so I rewrite so the geth have more knowledge about the reapers and tech and such I also like to keep the collector base because of the "shadow broker" can potentially learn/steal the information what the collectors were doing
One thing I almost never seen brought up is that this decision is a mirror of what the Jedi Council does to Revan before the start of KOTOR. Do you rewrite the personality and memories of your worst enemy in the hopes you can have that enemy as an ally in your quest to stop a galaxy spanning threat? Or do you kill your enemy when you have the chance because you don't want to take the risk of them "reverting" back to their previous state (and also because of the moral dubiousness of taking away a person's free will and messing with who they are for your own benefit)? The Jedi Council, as is the case through basically all of the Star Wars canon, make the most morally and ethically questionable decision based on a moral absolute of "we do not kill our enemies if they are defenseless."
I don’t know if I would consider it brain washing though because they were already brainwashed by the Reapers? Were they not considered “conditioned” like Saren was? Wouldn’t installing the “code/firewall” free them from the Reapers influence and be apart of the whole of Legion again per design?
I spoiled myself a little with this.., haven’t played 3 yet. I saved the heretics so I guess this means I got my work cut out for bringing peace between quarians and geth
I rewrote them and also achieved peace on rannoch
I maybe wrong but before legion gave all Geth true reaper upgrade without all the mind control
They weren’t really alive
So rewriting them isn’t really total control but giving them a chance to become truly alive after the events of rannoch
same here. It's pretty easy to get peace if you do the things right, even punching Han'Gerrel in the stomach.
@@irisravenhild9060 yeah i also did that XD