Should forward-facing sonar be banned? ft. Randy Blaukat and Ben Milliken
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- čas přidán 29. 11. 2023
- Bass After Dark, the most important - and funniest - show in fishing, is back for another lively, and LIVE, episode. Don't miss Ken Duke, Brian the Carpenter, and our three mystery guests (spoiler alert: it's Ben Milliken, Randy Blaukat, and Izzy Moursi) as we discuss the contentious topic: Should forward-facing sonar be banned?
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All I know is there is absolutely nothing like that magical moment of getting absolutely SMASHED out of nowhere by your PB, or any fish for that matter, and not having a clue it’s coming. That’s fishing to me and that feeling is why I’ve been addicted to it since I was a little kid. I understand having to compete for money and doing what you gotta do to survive in that world, but personally as someone who fishes for the passion and pride of it… I’d never want to know that hit is coming. ❤️🎣😎🤙🏽
You guys were the first to get Randy and Ben together Bravo 👏 we needed this dialogue !
Randy's point about not wanting to know whats out there and the mystery of fishing is a great point.
But Randy will sell you a personalized breakdown combining GPS and down imaging so that you can easily find fish with no mystery.
@@Steve13lb12oz i listen to both of these dudes I am taking no sides i like both of them for what they do and the experience the give
@@slliks67 I was a Randy subscriber but got tired of his whining and then the hypocrisy was too much and had to unsubscribe.
@@Steve13lb12oz 🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@Steve13lb12oz he is stuck in the past
Remember when top bass pros were also impeccable gentlemen in public? Times change
I've seen the same thing on the water. No one teaches the unwritten rules of on the water courtesy either. I think it is due to the increase in fatherless families.
Pepperidge farms remembers
Not a fan of Randy either but Ben is a d-bag
Lol, gtfo....listen to stories the older fisherman tell....
It is sad how young people no longer learn the importance of manners and respect. Some of it could be have no dads in the home, I believe it’s more likely because they have no Hod in their home.
As a Boomer, I have to admit that many of my peers have forgotten their manners as well. Just because you did it first or been doing it a long time doesn’t mean you deserve special treatment. I see too many old men rolll up on other fishermen and try to take a spit because it is “theirs”.
You can gauge character by how the 2 guests signed off - the one wished the other luck, and the other took the opportunity to dis the other when not around (real class - what you see is what you will get). This sport has a way to humble people........
I think sponsors have a way of humbling people as well. I don't think Ben has the amount of "F@ck You Money" as he thinks he does. He did his brand damage in that interaction.
Agreed
Did randy try to get Ben disqualified in one of the opens this year? If true I wouldn’t have shown any respect towards him either. But I don’t know the details. So who knows. 🤷♂️
Milken is a 🤡
Randy has been very disrespectful to Ben and several other fishing winner’s because of Livescope. Randy is just a grumpy old jealous has-been.
Ben Milliken vs. Randy Blaukat, 1 vs. 1, no livescope, streamed live for all the marbles on a neutral lake. How can we make this happen!?
Ben would absolutely smoke Randy it wouldn’t be competitive. Randy doesn’t fish near the amount of time Ben does. Can’t replace time on the water. Randy knows he wouldn’t out fish Ben.
@@The_Bass_Stunters No doubt about it! But a small part of me would be rooting for Randy. I think he’s taken enough punishment, one little victory would be ok lol
@@dtffishingmi Randy hasn’t been beating many people since well before FFS hit the scene.
@@Steve13lb12oz I'm sure he will make a comeback when they ban FFS 😏
@@dtffishingmi yeah, I believe it’s been about 20 years since Randy had a top 10 finish. Think about all the technology developed since then. From braided line and flouro, to powerful quiet trolling motors, power poles, rods, reels, and Randy’s GPS maps for sale. To allow for him to make a comeback, they need to go back to using Ugly Sticks and ABU 5500C reels with a Manns jelly worm
Thank you guys for hosting this episode
I’m sure someone here will correct me if I’m wrong but I feel like a really simple answer to a lot of this forward facing sonar talk would be to just start a no electronics or minimal electronics fishing trail. There’s gotta be a group of people out there that would happily fish them, and I find it hard to believe that, there isn’t companies out there that would support that too.
Smaller tournaments would work but the BASS and NPFL and MLF level of tournaments wouldn’t work because not enough money in it from sponsors
Fun idea but you would still need mapping if you did this on a larger scale then ur Tuesday nighters. No one is running down a lake that's full of obstructions without mapping lol
No one would watch it.
@@hunterjarnigan7220 it’s all theoretical ofc but I’m sure that there would be enough in it for sponsors with live coverage of weigh in and on the water coverage… just because electronics/fish finders would be restricted doesn’t mean coverage would have to be!
@@timothyverdine6431 definitely agree lol
Might as well go ahead and start letting guys chuck dynamite in the lake on the trails...it is not fishing and has no place in competitive tournaments, period. Randy is right on, and if you think you can prove him wrong turn off your FFS units and do so....oh listen to the crickets! Seriously, the dynamite would probably be a lot more interesting.
Ben isnt proving anything. Randy is 100% correct you are able to see how a bass reacts to your lure in real time and adjust accordingly to get that fish to bite. That's the long and short of it. That's what gives the advantage over people who do not have forward facing sonar. If you can't get that then they're just no reasoning with you
Why would anyone fish the Elite Series without FFS? That argument makes zero sense. It's a completely level playing field. They all have it and some are more skilled just like anything else. Shouldn't the best bass anglers in the world be fishing the top tours? "If you get rid of FFS than you no longer have the best bass fisherman in the world fishing." Rick Clunn said that and I couldn't agree more.
Love BTC toasting the back and forth between Ben & Randy with a beer, and Ken kicking back looks like Frasier doing an intervention 😆
LoadedForBass, in this episode we just kicked things off and got out of the way. We felt that's what the audience wanted. -- Ken
@@kenduke6631 I enjoyed it. One of the best back and forth entertainment we have seen on this topic in a while from both points of view. Keep the great videos coming with you and BTC!!!
Hey, Ben, do you wanna X-ray? Your Christmas presents too.
That's precisely what Randy is saying with Forwardfacing sonar.
They have used electro fishing for decades too but we don't use them in tournaments. The Alabama rig was banned. It's a lure right? Just because we use similar tools doesn't make every tool appropriate for the sport. We don't use spotlights to hunt deer. Pro baseball doesn't use aluminum bats. The point is that not every technology is good for a sport or the environment.
Yeah I don't understand the whole "it's too late to stop it now" argument. You just tell the guys they can't use it. Easy.
Agreed. Luckily the data supports that there has been zero positive or negative harm to our fisheries from FFS. Hoping it stays that way 👍🏻
@@MillikenFishing Those studies on crappie are encouraging. I would love to see some more studies on bass though. My friend is a fisheries biologist for the state GFP. He said there have not been any studies done on FFS in the state. He mentioned, as you also know, as an environmental study grad, that 1 or 2 studies is not sufficient to draw definite conclusions and that those studies will take years to complete. It is also important to compare apples to apples when comparing data sets. Data on crappie dose not necessarily correlate to bass.
@@MillikenFishinghey Mike what blows me away is that no talks about what should be #1 like every other graph is SAFETY, in my Massachusetts, Rhode Island area, mostof the ponds are 8 to 10 feet deep and full of rocks,I’ve gone swimming twice before having Active Target 🤷🤷
@@DIYAlliedCrappie are probably the worst species to use if they want to extrapolate to bass. Their fecundity dictates that they need to be culled and harvested much more rigorously than bass. The baseline harvest rate vs C&R is also much higher.
This was a great podcast, some great points made. Looking forward to the next one
I just saw the top 10 list, way too funny
LOOKING FORWARD too the next one? No pun intended right? 😂😂
Great conversation guys! Thanks! Learned some things from both sides! Keep it up!
Just have Randy and Ben settle the score on a lake they have never fish, let them have 3 days practice, Zero electronics and only a Topo map and see how is the best fisherman.
It’s interesting to me that no one considers the weekend bass fisherman in all of this. It’s about how FFS and tournaments interact.
Plain and simple. When you can see your lure go down in front of what "appears" to be a fish. And what you see on your screen that "appears" to be a fish . Chases and bites your lure . Is that fishing? I see a ton of people on Big O just staring at their screen and doing nothing else.
Well yeah technically it is fishing. If they used a rod and reel, and cast out to a fish, and the fish bit their lure, that sounds like fishing to me. Just because it is not the same way you "fish", doesn't mean it's not fishing. You must sound like one those kids that played high school football and even though you wanted to go to the next level, you couldn't because you are 5'5 tall and slow. So you blame the rest of the world for your "short comings" and cry about everything.
I watch a lot of bad fishing videos. I don’t use spot lock, ffs, power pulls, fluorocarbon line. I don’t have a 250hp outboard. It’s amazing that I ever caught a fish at all. I fished with a guy with ffs once, if I was fishing pro events right now I’d have to have it, it’s definitely spot lighting, it’s not fishing, I like to fish.
👍👍
Ignorance is bliss
@@muthafukajones1513 and greed is a deadly sin.
At least Randy had the decency to acknowledge Milliken as a good fisherman, who Randy respected. On the other hand, Milliken didn’t have a single word to say about Randy. Goes to show whose head is so ego infested & full of it that they have no room for anything else!
I think a lot of people who didn't know Ben already came away from that video knowing a lot more about his true self. I think Randy and Ben are competing to be the "heel" in this industry-but at opposite ends of the Bell Curve.
Randy had already taken his nasty shots at Ben. Ben owed Randy zero respect
Randy has been dissing Ben before Ben even came at him the way he did. I’m pretty sure he tried to even disqualify him in an event . Randy has been coming at guys for a while now . Don’t bring any one into it if you don’t want anything said back to you 💯
@@KyleB3434 Got any proof of your allegation, or video of when Randy mentioned Ben, by name?
@@cuivre2004 he did use his name a good while back. You do the search if you want it so bad. But you don’t need to say a persons name to talk about them. Statements like: these spotlighters that are qualifying for the Elite couldn’t catch a fish without their ffs.
All I know is if ffs wasn’t a thing, Ben wouldn’t be where he is today. Nuff said.
Pretty sure his channel was growing just fine before FF. He was also winning tourneys before FF.
Wrong.
Bet he would!
He felt bad about.
About talking about Randy while he wasn't there. But yet he still did it that shows character.
its funny too because he talks about how his placings were bad but Randys point isnt that he would still be winning or placing good if fss wasnt around in fact hes openly mentioned hes not as good as he once was, Ben just missed the point entirely
Randy fan boys looking for something to hold on to 😂
Miliken fanboys can’t get balls off their chins
@@muthafukajones1513. Randy’s senior citizen fluffer crew.
Says a guy with muthafuckn in his name and another guy with a joke of bag limit. Fucking douchebags.
The fishing started to (suck) to randys point when high school and college tournaments started happeneing every weekend and they had 2-300 boats in them every weekend
Ding ding ding! You nailed it.
Being 62 years old and have never used any kind of sonar in any of my angling, I have always felt that tournaments should be sonar free. Do tournaments without sonar then see who swings the most sausage. ALL sonar basically takes the sport out of sport fishing.
Abracadabra! Randy can say to the world that you would never qualify for a tournament without livescope but not trash you at the same time. That’s some good magic!
Randy is so innocent.
Avid angler and overall bass fishing fan. Why can’t everyone admit FFS is not comparable to 2D. Also, Milliken is arrogant and disrespectful. Randy is a class act regardless of his stance.
There is nothing classy about Randy. He throws shade at all fisherman on a daily basis. That’s the definition of not having class. This is his come upon
Wow. The way Ben ended this was a real dick move. Shoes his true character.
He mentioned earlier that he respected Randy’s accomplishment’s. I doubt he was trying to be a dick. Though I guess you never know. Probably didn’t want to speak over other guys . Or maybe he was muted . The host said they were going to mute him when he wasn’t speaking because of an echo problem.
Yeah, he is trash. Not a surprise. I think he has trouble with Randy's obvious higher IQ and ability to debate.
I don't often agree with Randy. Hell, I disagree with him openly on his own channel. BUT...he is 100% right on the LiveScope/FFS issue.
I would say Ben won this debate . He brought facts and data . Randy uses his subscribers to prove his point. His subscribers flock to him because they share his opinions. It is getting old seeing every tournament won with FFS. It would be nice to ban it for at least a few tournaments.
@@timg185 The "facts" Ben brought was "we don't know". Some facts, eh? The only thing Ben brought to the table was the big chip on his shoulder, and anonymous uncited studies by some anonymous "gentlemen" he basically said "trust me" about. Scientific studies mention "P-values" (probabilities)- not "facts". Lay people are wrong when they use these two terms interchangeably.
@@cuivre2004 he had a couple studies written down and said he would send them to Randy. I referred back on one point to find out what the study was based on. So it wasn’t just made up. He also used the opinions of professionals that use data every day to do their jobs managing fisheries.
You seem kind of butt hurt because your beliefs are challenged . I kind of feel like the truth is some where in the middle . As usual the people whining the most are probably people that couldn’t catch fish to begin with.
@@timg185 Please, don't get your own bowels in an uproar over this debate. When you start to use ad hominem attacks against the person you are discussing an issue with, you look like as much of an amateur as Ben did. Most people who have had any higher education at all knows how to keep a level head and maintain a degree of being dispassionate about it-and they stay on the subject and don't devolve into personal attacks. Doing that makes you look like your tank has run empty.
Ben brought the results of observable differences found before and after Livescope
Paul Elias is a prime example. In 2008 caught 132 lbs in a four day tournament fishing offshore, throwing in the middle of the lake. It was awesome to watch and he wasn't flipping a bunch of laydowns or bushes on the bank.
Falcon?
@@Woefman911 yes Falcon.
@@petejablowski2123 I corrected it. Hit thr wrong key. Thanks.
I was really surprised no one mentioned that all of this technology has been available to anglers since the late 70s, and side imaging was late 80s.
The first foreward sonar was called "Pro model Bass hunter" and was made by B.E.F. Manufacturing in 1979. Roland Martin and Rick Pierce along with others ran these units. In the late 80s "side finder" by Bottom Line were the rage. Infisherman promoted Bottom line units because of the side imaging capabilities.
The fidelity of forward facing sonar is much better then 30-40 years ago. There is now a huge difference.
I'm a no body. But I've worked acrossed many bass pros now sense I started at tracker in Knoxville back in 2008. The biggest issue in BASS. Is weigh in/over fishing lakes/ just catching them period. I've talked DNR. Fish and Game. University researchers. Pros you name it. In the pro setting, not doing weigh ins could really help. But even at that. A larger percent then most don't know, die after they themselves catch them... I'm nothing more then a boat yard guy. But we aren't talking about the right issue if we want to "help" bass.
Would really like to see it dimished to simply biggest fish for the top 5 guys or just the biggest 1 from each competitor
That is a point I've been beating the drum for as well. I'm a kayak angler and if a bunch of plastic boat guys can learn catch, photo and release, I don't know why the bass boat guys should have such a hard time adopting it- they are electronic geniuses, after all, aren't they? TourneyX isn't a hard app to learn, and the regulated Ketch measuring boards only cost about $20. Everyone has a cell phone now days.
Too many tournaments and weigh ins are ridiculous
Ben is such a gentleman. We need more people like him in bass fishing.
MLB doesn't use aluminum bats. Professionals have to be better than ordinary people with less.
O, they use steroids, HGH, juiced balls, technology to tell catcher what pitch is coming , etc
@@Steve13lb12oz I thought they both made great points and the mediating was bad. Ex. Randy should have been asked if the data Ben gave him was encouraging and relieved a bit of his concerns for the time being. Ben should have been asked if he recognizes its early in the FFS game and does he feel those numbers could change and would that be of concern. It's feelings vs data. They both make great arguments honestly which is why it should continue in good faith. I personally feel something has to make you a professional. what is your niche? What did you figure out that others did not? Old anglers had their own styles. My question, and I don't have the answer is.... Is the only difference angler to angler with FFS the ability to spend enough time with it? Can anybody do what these guys are doing as long as they have the money and more importantly the time? That's where I think it could be different from other "professional sports" Not everybody can be a pro in any other sport just by having the time. I always told myself I wouldn't get FFS cuz it would ruin my time outdoors. Now I think I may learn from it some and have considered it. I don't know? Do you have it PB13? How has it changed your fishing trips? Do you miss anything about the old way? Genuinely interested!
@@jasonburkiewicz2033 to start with, I was along time fan of Randy from when he was successful many years ago. Never been a fan of Ben. The shock-value entertainment isn’t for me. I was never a fan of young Mike Iaconelli. Glad he matured a bit
Aside from that, I truly recognize how great these fishermen are. Ben is killing it. He deserves his props because he does stand out from the rest of the field using the technology.
I really lost lots of respect and interest in Randy when he started spouting opinions and his personal experiences as Scientific Facts. He often oversteps the limits of his knowledge.
I also dislike him slipping in his VERY LIBERAL political views and his anti-religion views into his materiel. To be blunt, he often shows his lack of education and understanding of the world issues.
His video about the small tackle shop in Florida closing because of FFS was a straight up lie. I know that store well and am friends with that owner. He is old school and does not like ffs but it had zero to do with him closing.
I do have ffs as it came on my boat. I’ve been playing with it and can see how it is a useful tool. I personally do very well flipping and would much prefer that. The FFS has not affected me in any way other than as an amusement later in the day when the flipping bite is off. I kill some time and try to learn more about the waters I fish. Most people on Randy’s channel have obviously never actually used or even seen how it works. Showing 3D data from a 18 deg cone on a 2D screen leaves a lot of room for error. A 60 foot cast can show a fish on your screen and also show your lure in the same area. The math of that works out that the fish you are seeing could be over 18 feet away from your lure even though the screen says they are at the same spot.
Tight lines 🎣
Because metal bats present a safety hazard. Has nothing to do with how good they are.
I think Blaukat and Milliken need to have a 3 lake old school fish off, no electronics, for the fate of FFS. If Ben wins it stays, if Randy wins it’s banned.
Randy should start his own tournament trail where ffs isn't allowed in the boat.
If there's a desire to follow that style of fishing, it will become a success, and we will know that he was right.
Randy got his butt kicked in the BFL's this year. He wouldn't stand a chance against an Elite angler without FFS..
A that's too much pressure on everyone in the sport to leave it on the shoulders of two people and b either adapt with new technology or get out of the sport.
@@marshalllaw4116 Randy will never do this. He has bit off more than he can chew now. Running a cookie jar tournament is a thankless job. Running a circuit is a full time job only a few can master. There are few Ray Scott's in this world.
@@TheFishdoctor1952
Randy is in his 60s
This was fantastic!! Thank you guys for a great show!
Great show! Keep them coming!
In a way I agree with both guys. I think technology is a tool that should be utilized to improve your chances of success but I also lean towards the sentiment that Randy has that we should limit the use of technology during competition. He brought up the rangefinder in golf. I think there are lots of parallels between the two sports. Equipment and technology have evolved in both, giving us better clubs, rods and reels, balls and lures. We also have range finders, gps course mapping, and AI that tracks our shots and can suggest what clubs and shots we should hit based off our past performance as well as environmental factors. The pros can utilize any and all of that technology to prepare but once the tournament starts they are limited in what they can use and are made to rely on their knowledge, experience and intuition to execute. I think the same thing applied to tournament fishing would be the best way to go.
you are 100% correct. the tech is going to continue to advance, and anglers will continue to buy it, even if only to use in practice...that is where this tech belongs. it allows anglers to continue to use it to learn more about bass and their reactions, which is one of Bens arguments.
You are spot on with what you’ve stated, make it so number one!
I think it’s crazy to compare 2D sonar to FFs.
Why? Because Randy agrees with one and not the other.
I don’t care what Randy thinks or Ben. There’s no comparison period
Loving the podcast, subscribed 👍🏼
I have learned a lot from Randy and his videos on youtube. He is a legend and knows what he is talking about. Thank you Randy!
A LEGEND? Really. What are your guide lines for a legend?
@@TheFishdoctor1952wht are yours ?? Cuz if you say Ben is a legend then I want some of that shit you smoking lol
@@ElChema0719 Ben will likely never be a legend, but of course he is young. Randy did well. A couple of wins. But a legend? Not even close.
@@TheFishdoctor1952 The man has been in the game for a while he deserves to be in the legend league a least
He is like Eli manning of fishing lol
Having no statistical data whether or not ffs hurts fish populations does NOT mean what Ben thinks it means. He's not a smart as he thinks he is lol
He was basically told "we dont have enough data to draw a conclusion" and is too dumb to understand what they were telling him, so he interpreted it to mean it's benign.
Dude you literally said it and missed the point. We have no data to reach a conclusion, then why is Randy jumping into conclusions? We cannot say FFS is good or bad for the fisheries yet, then why are people saying it is bad?
It's reasonable to speculate as to what the impact might be in the absence of hard data. Hard data is hard to come by in fishing as there aren't massive teams of scientists obsessing over largemouth bass.@@homemazul6251
This was epic. Long time coming.
I enjoyed the debate between Randy and Ben and I subscribe to both of them, but I thought it was kind of childish that Ben did not respond to Randy at the end when Randy had to leave.
I think many of the younger generation think his demeanor was normal and okay- they can't differentiate a professional debate (which this tried to be) versus an on-line troll fest.
That wasn't genuine and Ben knew it he was saying FU under his breath hope u finish last in my opinion
Randy has been the childish one with his comments about “spot lighters”, and “scopers that can’t fish without cheating”.
Randy having a hard time accepting that the fishing world has left him behind
@@Steve13lb12oz Did he REALLY call those people "cheaters"? Literally? I think the livescope sonar beam and directionality is entirely analogous to a beam of light. That isn't that great of a leap to see the similarities.
@@cuivre2004 yes, on multiple occasions he used those terms. He also said that any tournament win using FFS was illegitimate and should have an asterisk on it.
No, spot lighting deer at night, when the beam of light hits them, they freeze. If you don’t hunt, think about deer in the highways that sees a car’s headlights. They freeze. A frozen deer is very easy to shoot. It’s illegal.
Using the same basic technology of sending a sonar beam out and seeing a blip on a screen to know the general area of a fish is very different and also not illegal.
Izzy's comments about A.I. are spot on. Everyone is anxious about FFS, but it's much more insidious. Pros are unknowingly surrendering their expertise and intellectual property to these data harvesting corporations. Garmin owns every waypoint Milliken has dropped, along with time/data stamps. When A.I. starts analyzing fish and fisherman behavior, expertise will come from machines, not men.
Excellent point. Fisheries are under attack. If you people don't think this will cause harm to our fisheries then you know nothing John Snow.
💯
One of the greatest insights I’ve seen. You should think more on this issue and pursue your intellectual capabilities. We are selling ourselves to these companies.
Everyone catches 24 pds at the st lawrence except ben, maybe cause the smallies dont use brush piles? Dude bombed out at the river
Can you have more of spiteful, jealous comment. Makes sense why you’re a blanket fan.
93rd out of 212 isn’t a bomb in the opens. Also his lowest finish of the year.
@@lukewyle8854 at the river that's a bomb
THANK YOU FOR THIS... "THANK YOU FOR NO CLICK BAIT BS"... THE VIDEO WE ALL WANTED BUT NEVER KNEW HOW'D WE GET IT! THIS was AWESOME!! 😂😎✌️
Randy nailed it! Busted him on the range finder for golf!!! It's almost the same thing! There has to be a limit!!!!
My point exactly. In that case they need to ban all electronics in bass tournaments then.
At the end of the day its not the new lures or technology thats hurting bass fisheries. Lets be honest its the thousands and thousands of tournements on all these lakes. Most guys in this sport are in it for the wrong reason. Its became a look at me show not just something to do for fun or to put food on table.
Boom!
The whole issue with forward facing sonar is this. The untapped bodies of water where the fish had almost zero pressure on them, are losing ground.
Complete and total garbage comment based on your opinion. Doesn’t pass the smell test, the logic test, or the fisherman test.
I can understand both Ben and Randy's point, but tend to lean more towards Randy. There needs to be a middle ground and there is something to be said about the difference between fishing and catching. Ben wants to push his data, while disregarding others and was clearly disrespectful in this forum, regardless of any videos before it. Ben acts like his voice is the only one that matters. He kept saying he doesn't care whether or not FFS continued to be used but everything about him said otherwise. It just seemed like he wanted to be right more than anything else.
I’d like to see FFS allowed the first 2 days of a tournament then the last 2 not allowed. I think that would really shake up the way guys fish a tournament
Kinda expected more out of Ben here. Maybe he let the emotions get the best of him. He usually seems to portray a higher level of professionalism than he did here, even when he strongly disagrees w someone. Ben is going to elevate this sport to a level its never imagined, but you have to respect the perspective of the players that came before and built the foundation even when you disagree
Maybe he is tired of the bullshit
Hes been getting shit on for years...Professionals were bashing him for targeting giants with FfS before he started professionally fiahing...hes probably tired of it lol
He showed his true colors. He is not changing the sport it’s been on an incline since before dumpy diapers Ben.
The truth is people like one rod and Mikey ballz and Jon b made it popular again with social media and CZcams. Most everyone else are riding coat tails. Ben has always had a crap attitude and a bit immature. It’s the whole reason he gets crapped on. That’s life. You all must be 12 and spoiled brats too.
Womp womp to yo mommy, not social media
If an 18 or 21 year old is able to fish 340 days a year then they are obviously a rich kid.
Right. And?
Great point investigator needed your phd to figure that out.
To your point earlier, if a young guy is able to fish that often, then obviously they're going to have the best of the electronics. Fishing 340 days a year, even for 2 or 3 years, probably means they have more time on the water than 95% of anglers. Statistically speaking, they're going to be much more productive with their time on the water.
Couple that with the fact that FFS lets you roll up to a point or lake structure, scan for fish, and decide if it's worth your time.
FFS is clearly giving anglers an advantage.
@@MillikenFishing
Really??
Not 340 but I fished 300+/- days from age 16 to about 21. Minimum wage jobs, borrowed boats, or from shore!
The young man fishes 340 days a year because he is a hard worker, trying succeed at his career!
Are we really going to hate on someone putting the work in??
Jealousy, looks bad man!
@@lawhorndavid7687 ffs not an advantage at the top level when everyone has that technology. Ben has never said it doesn't aid a fisherman, but the unit doesn't present the lure to the fish. Often time knowing the fish are on a certain piece of structure is a hindrance because your ego tells you, you can make them bite. Wasted time on specific fish can be a big hamper in a tournament.
So alabama rigs are illegal in tournaments but live sonar isnt? Makes literally no sense
A rig was brought to a vote by the elite level anglers at BASS and agreed to not use it at that level. Was never "banned" by the organization but anglers that compete at that level to agree not to use it in thar level of competition
They both made good points... great video...
I went to the Fred Robinson bridge on the Missouri river from 1979 to 1996 looking for paddlefish. I would think forward facing sonar would be deadly on paddlers.
After watching footage of recent 2023 tourneys, I seen contestants locked to a screen at the bow casting and pitching. Then an older contestant was spot fishing and offering content to conditions and activity of the fish. Much more interesting than fisherman playing video games and having little much to say about what was happening. The old head down cell phone position is not very appealing.
Unwatchable for sure.
I find FFS interesting to watch. I think it has more to do with the personality of the pro. The new guys don’t’ know how to engage an audience, this is why Ben is fun to watch (in my opinion). Ike put a video out last week catching fish on FFS - it was super entertaining.
Anglers were locked in their screen just the same before ffs. You only think this because Randy said it. And why does anyone care where an angler is looking. It makes absolutely no sense. Just an excuse.
@@muthafukajones1513 No, not cuz of Randy. He was not on the clip I saw this sit on, it was one of the 2023 BMC series from early year. I have LS so I know how crazy it gets piloting a boat, pole in and managing LS. Just saying but I invested in LS.
@@joeybagofdonuts7164 Point being that anglers have been doing the same thing for a long time. Now all of a sudden it’s huge problem and only one person talks about Steiner the backs of anglers. It’s not a coincidence
Was able to watch about half of this. Enjoyed some very interesting data and good dialogue, but I think something everyone can take away from this, is you don’t have to necessarily respect someone to show respect. As both a viewer and a professional in this industry, character is everything, even in this ever evolving modern society. I can “feel” Ben’s anger towards Randy, and I assume this is from Randy’s video or the “attack” as Ben perceived it from
Randy. Regardless if it was a blatant attack, I’ve always respected, listened and applauded those who are able to calmly and respectfully debate their opponents, with intellect and patience, rather than throw bows at every opportunity. I see several other comments in agreement with this. I think Ben’s a hammer, he’s from my home state, but I think there’s a lesson in deliverance and humility that could help him reach more people , and not turn folks off of him. He has a ton of knowledge, everyone on the show did. Just my observation!
Great take 👊
Let’s split tournaments to the ffs side and those without. Saltwater tournaments do it. Noodling tournaments have natural and scuba divisions.
Ben talked fish catch numbers, not weights. It's a stretch to say that the younger generation is simply better. Fishing 340 days a year? Sounds like daddy got some money.
Sooooo should we look at how much money someone has in their bank account as a pre-requisite to enter a tournament? Or limit the amount of days someone can spend on the water? Also, I talked numbers, weights, number of quality fish etc.
I would love for a pro fisherman on either trail post the analytics or viewership numbers on each place they fish. If livescope plays show me the numbers after each tx
Thank you so much Ben! I have wanted to say what you said to Blaukat’s idiotic ass! You ripped him a new asshole! Your right as well about his minions. If you read his comments they sound like cult members!
So because a parent has sacrificed and worked to make a great life for their children that is some problem? As parent it’s one of my responsibilities to ensure my children are equipped for life in the best possible way. Daddy’s money doesn’t make a kid want to spend time on the water or work hard at becoming a great angler.
@@rustyscopano2667 You have parenting all wrong if you think it is your job to grease the skids for your children to skate through life. Hard times and needing to show some of their own grit makes the steel tempered. Otherwise kids will be soft as lead. Easy times make for soft men.
Same with Sport Dog competitions you cannot use the main training aid in the competition events, it has been around for 25 plus years, but the AKC did the right thing back then and banned it from the grounds of the events.
Great example
I was looking forward to this conversation.
For Randy, would your opinion change towards FFS if it could only shoot a signal out 20-30 feet instead of 200 feet?
Randy doesn’t answer his own comments questions so I will! No!
I believe that live scope should be used only in practice and all the anglers should have the exact same set up provided by the electronics companies so it remains a level playing field, the days of tournaments all the monitors should be left off the boats
Decent idea about practice! But how would the sponsorship thing work when pros have so many different sponsors supporting them. They can’t all use one said product. At the end of the day money drives the sport and the sponsors are what give it. It’ll be up to them, to then work with the organizations, then the anglers. My 2 cents lol.
And all get the same boat, same trolling motor, same rods and reels, and same lures.
The problem I see with this is that it’s not easy just to take it off. This stuff is hardwired into every boat. I know when I’m swapping graphs and gear around or trying different stuff I have to take my whole boat apart. You can say well your not aloud to use it, someone is going to cheat and use it anyways.
@1:01:42, Ben literally proves the point that fishing is become elite. Who's the "we" we can afford $90,000 boats? Not the poors like me, lol.
This comment is to Ben let me please say I have been fishing bass tournament s seance the mid. 8o.s I'm a sheet metal worker for 43 years now with 22 months to go..when I retire I want to win all the money back I spent on entries ..so forward facing sonar is definitely going to be a part of that..i enjoy your video s and learn by watching hope some day to fish with you ...good luck in the up coming season your friend Frank...god bless...
I like the discussion around the issue. I think many good points were made and good view point shared. I will always hold to the belief that if you fish professionally and are a “pro” you should be a leader and show how it can be done minus the spot lightning. Randy did a great job explaining his position Ben did not.
I'd love to debate the clown milliken dude would leave the show crying
Its easy to debate when he never addresses the points being directed at him.
Would you actually debate with facts or just throw out random anecdotal stories like your god Randy?
@@zimks yea I'd debate him with facts I've got plenty here Is a fact I catch more fish with ffs than with out it
@@aarons6931 that’s still an anecdotal experience lol
@@zimks hows that anecdotal it's a fact
Even ben said he can go get a limit of crappiest in 30 mins with ffs then next sentence sais ffs doesnt hurt lakes lol
What ever happened to respect for each other. It’s now , not about FFS. Disrespect was pretty evident in just a discussion.
It’s actually quite impressive how ben makes randy look good
Ken love the jacket, Brian and yourself did a great job, always an interesting topic to listen to.
Thank you, B-Head. Bass After Dark is primarily a vehicle to show off my fashion sense. LOL -- Ken
Great episode I think Milliken is wrong about Randy. Yes, he does click bait stuff, butI'm pretty sure he really doesn't like FFS. I agree he posts too much about it, but I don't think it's strictly for clicks
Yeah right or wrong Randy clearly cares about the issue. The "hes only doing it for clicks" argument doesnt make any sense.
All you tubers do click bait recent from Ben I got hit by lightning but he didn't, one of many click baits but they all use click bait gotta get the views !!!!!!!
Just so you know, Randy has currently FFS and 3 transducers on his boat. It's all about clicks for Randy's businesses
@@joewinkler2168 You tell a lie every time you tell a truth? It’s absolutely for clicks. Hell Randy said it himself 5 times on this podcast. If I title videos truthfully yall don’t watch. WTF else would’ve convinced you? The Blaukat minions who comment are in a trance. They act like they would go full out Jim Johnson or Heavens Gate if Randy said it was time to leave earth and win a Darwin Award
@@davejolly582 I think he cares about his opinion on FFS, but he's also figured out that FFS videos are his most watched and commented videos. Whether he likes it or not, he knows that the money is in FFS videos (and Randy is self admitently on CZcams to make money). I've been around his channel long enough to remember a video titled "my final epic rant on video game fishing with livescope/active target". that video was 2 years ago and easily 100+ livescope videos ago.
What’s wrong with my 5 inch unit?
Even the best livescopers (Josh Jones, Chris Johnston, etc) agree that watching someone stare at a screen all day and only make a cast when they see a fish on the screen is like watching paint dry. You know whats gonna happen before it happens. Much more enjoyable watching pros flipping, punching mats, frogging, etc. Facts
😂😂The Head Slap from Ben to his own Forehead!😂😂
Average individual salary in 1982 was $11k. I found an article where Elias remembers seeing a brand new "tricked out" Ranger for $20k. Average income now is $60k and it's about $120k for a fully maxed out to the teeth bass boat. Nothing has changed, people laughed at you then if you were a broke kid and told them you want to be a pro. It was possibly even harder back then. I like Ben and I like Randy. They both represent one thing, changing times. If Ben is still around in 30-40 years I bet he'll be bitching about $3.2 million bass boats and the automatic lake strainer that kids are using to grab the fish straight out the lake.
I went to my first BassMaster BP Top 100 weigh in the summer of 1994 and the local Ranger dealer had some boats displayed there, brand new 363 with a 150 Johnson fast strike on it and 2 lowrance graphs for $21,900
I don’t understand why banning the technology of jet drives and tunnel hulls never comes up? I have a problem with that! Keep your silly spot light those fish are going to get over exploited soon enough. Those fish are still going to live up the river and the guy with a jet drive’s going to catch them!
Dang looks like Randy won this battle after totalling the comments
Ben is quoting data on general lake fishing. I say general fishing is okay for forward sonar. In my opinion, to level the playing field in pro tournaments, it should be outlawed.
Ken over here looking like Hugh Hefner 😆. This pod cast is fire
Much appreciated cgriff840
Ken needs a smoking pipe.
Interesting debate. Definitely felt some tension between Ben and Randy. Time is the only thing that will truly show a clearer picture with more complete data.
Ben was showing tension- Randy was pretty calm in comparison. Seems like this is the first time Ben ever had an intellectual debate-he couldn't maintain a professional demeanor and let his emotions get the better of him. Randy is trained in martial arts and competed in the ring- he can maintain his emotions much better due to that training.
@@cuivre2004 You need to rewatch the video and attempt to not be biased
@@Davo2233 I watched it objectively. Ben was gesticulating and disrespecting people throughout the entire debate- even the other guys who tried to get a word in edgewise. They were even making fun of him for not letting them speak.
@@cuivre2004 talk about a Randy fanboy!! Wow, lol!
@@Benwtradarchery I actually have MegaLive- so I don't totally agree with Randy on this subject. I do look at how each of them tried to debate the issue. Regardless of the subject- Ben came across as douchey.
Gotta agree with Randy on this one...just my opinion
People wanna try to use the Flasher argument and they always conveniently leave out the fact that FFS shows you in real time how a bass reacts to anything you offer it. That is absolutely not the same as any technology to come before it. And it has allowed people that have little to no fishing experience to beat people that have hard earned lifetimes of experience weekly in tournaments..
Damnit this was fun🙌🏻 Good luck Ben, go get em bro‼️
The 2020 elite series schedule was fished in the fall…. Naturally catch rate’s probably wouldn’t be as good… so some of this “data” could be off a bit.
I think Randy’s argument about viewing experience is unwarranted. Watching people fish shallow vs watching people off shore has more to do with the tournament location than livescope. Taking livescope away isn’t going to stop people from fishing offshore. Like Ben said, people have been fishing offshore for over 20 years.
Aaron Martens
wow - get the popcorn out for this one!!!
Tournaments in general, have played a big effect on our fisheries. I know my local reservoir is nowhere near as good as it used to be when I was 12 years old from all the Tuesday and Thursday night they hold there every week those bass have seen every lure that’s ever been made.
Insightful. But this podcast begged for more guidance and leading from the host/s or moderators. Guests should not be allowed to engage in isolated and untethered debate for extended periods.
They knew what this was going to turn into when they invited the two of them on a podcast together. I assume this is what they wanted.
I don't think they have to ban it. Lets face it, it has made half the season unwatchable. it will either work its way out or they're going to have to deal with a limited audience.
Or no audience 😅
You mean the limited audience that has grown the last 4 years? Even with FFS being at its peak?
Yes indeed
Yah everyone would rather watch some guy bang the bank for 8 hrs and catch 13 pounds...instead of watching people with passion and personality catch 25 pounds
@@xmarkedx actually, yeah.
watching big fish on livescope is a thrill. The behaviors and the way the react to different baits that current day is so cool to see. A lot of the time they don't show any interest at all. I caught a muskie ice fishing 3ft below the ice on a tiny jig and a minnow. It circled it a few times and then bam, fish on
My man BTC just sitting back getting HAMMERED!!! Hahaha! Love it!
There's no doubt Ben Milliken is good fisherman.
There's no doubt that he's pretty smart.
Had friends that watch his channel. They tried to get me to watch his channel. But I couldn't stand the ego. The dominion language about whoever. people on the Lake around him. people
on social media. I just. Couldn't take the Ego. its one thing To be good And be humble about it. it's another thing to be good and tell everybody how good you are. Back when I Tried to watch his videos he went to the Omaha.
Tackle show. I've never been But the The Belittling and talking down about the people that were there. I think that was probably the last one I watcand it p***** me off. It still comes up on my feed once in a while. I scroll past as fast as I can. the reason I watched this video. It's because it's not his channel. This whole video could have been Ben and Randy. I feel sorry for the other 2 sitting there. Listening to all the B s coming out of milliken's mouth And milliken's Vendetta against randy Obviously Randy does live inside Ben's head rent free.
Randy won this debate
@@JMFishing It's just funny that ben had all that Stuff Researched and pretty much just jumped randy with it. And Randy answered all those questions with Fishing knowledge and Common sense
Milliken doesnt have an ego lmao
Blaukat was trying to debate...milliken was trying to fight and be confrontational amd make it personal
Thats what narcissists do when cornered.
I would think that to if I was a blauket fan boy. But Ben is well within his right to blast Randy. Randy has sat around blasting everyone for years. Ben said what the silent majority has been thinking and it’s long overdue.
@@muthafukajones1513false.
Keep in mind your not a narcissist if you can back it up.
@@High-techRedneckFishing LOL! Who told you that? I think you are confusing "bragging" with "narcissism". They aren't one in the same.
Love it. Thank you
@MillikenFishing - Psst. Plant Trout in Texas. Lot's of Trout. At least 5-6 months out of the year (Cool Months). Wait 5 years.
why ben so threatened by randy
If they take away FFS Ben goes back to being a good, not great, angler.
Technology advancements in bass fishing will take us further away from what it means to be an angler.
Exactly .. this stuff will ruin fishing because no one can afford to compete. Its already almost impossible .
@@jeffreyyeater1780 A.I. will be fishing for us in the future. We might even have drones go fishing for us while we sit at home.
I may be catching a few crappie with livescope but i still suck at fishing. I also seldom bring fish home but I sure like my FFS that's letting me catch those fish that i do catch & release back into the lake. 😊
Eventually they headed toward inferred cameras built into trolling motor heads that can see 50ft in front of them and 50 ft below them with clear sky image..