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F-22 Raptor vs Su-35 (US Stealth vs Russian IRST): BVR Battle | DCS
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- čas přidán 14. 08. 2024
- We look at the claim that IRST sensors can out-perform US 5th Generation Stealth. We pit F-22 Raptor against Su-35 Flanker in a beyond visual range battle.
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0:00 Overview
0:48 Basics & History
2:10 My 3 doubts about IRST
7:35 Scenario Details
9:24 Predictions
9:36 ROUND 1 Su-35 with IRST
19:45 ROUND 2 F-22 with Radar
25:47 ROUND 3 Su-35 with IRST
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#GRDogfight #DCSDogfight #F22 #Raptor #Su35 #GR #DCSWorld #DCS #Dogfight #5thGen #Stealth #Aviation #AviationGaming #FlightSimulators
I’ve been depressed lately and questioning my existence, but watching Grim Reapers videos has been very uplifting because I’m told I’m a valued viewer.
Don’t question your existence it’s not good for your health
Hard relate
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations.” Jeremiah 1:5 NKJV
God loves you and has a plan for your life, you have value beyond your wildest dreams. Don't fall for the trap that you are worthless brother.
Me too
You ought to try heroin!
Thirty years ago one of my brothers who retired as an avionics chief in the Navy told me that U.S. fighter radars were so good even at that time that they could under some circumstances even detect the paint scheme on other aircraft. I hadn't thought of that conversation in years until you mentioned the radar scanning down the air intake.
This George:
The one issue you did not mention about IRST is Clouds. IRST have difficulty seeing through clouds, a problem radar is far more capable of overcoming. The US has space based IRST called Space Based Infrared System (SBIRS). SBIRS is used to detect and track inter-continental Missile launches and does so very effectively. SBIRS can also detect and track aircraft in after-burner, these aircraft in the space world are known as slow walkers as missiles are considerably faster. Tracking a slow walker is more problematic as tracking typically breaks when slow walkers descend below cloud cover. Tracking ICBMs through clouds is less an issue as ICBMs spend very little time below clouds.
I only mention SBIRS well known problem versus clouds as aircraft IRST systems have not solved the cloud issue either despite being used at significantly shorter ranges. I am unaware if DCS takes into account cloud cover for aircraft IRST and I think this may be a good experiment for you and your merry band of flyers.
George answer you Discord plz.
How is it even a question if an old su35 with some hyped up system (as always in rus propaganda) could possibyl threaten an F22? Lol. Even a modernized F16 with Aesa radar would smoke su35. And most jets russia has in ukraine now, are not even su35 but weaker like su24-25-27-30-34.
Typhoon = One heck of an awesome, beautiful fighter. That's my opinion anyway. :)
👍🏻The Typhoon is simply majestic in the air.
I kno you guys are probably goin to hate on this lol however I think Rafale VS Typhoon is a great match up! The Gripen can kinda hang in there but most of the time both will smash it! Lol what are your thoughts? Let me guess Typhoon better than Rafale??
@@Anarchy_420 In DCS the Typhoon mod doesn't include the helmet aiming, locking weapons and firing via voice command. the pilot can now look at multiple targets, lock-on to them, and then, by voice-command, prioritise them. So yes, the Typhoon is better Lol !!!
@@Anarchy_420 I think the Typhoon is better in air-to-air than the Rafale. Rafale is possibly better than the Typhoon is air-to-ground. I like the Rafale tho I do have many questions about it still. The price of the Rafale is almost that of the Raptor, no joke !
Older US aircraft like the F-14 and even the F-4 had IRST, in fact the The first use of an IRST system appears to be the F-101 Voodoo, F-102 Delta Dagger and F-106 Delta Dart interceptors. However I think that because Russia and China have had little progress with reducing their RCS figures until the 2010s, and conversely Wester Radars have advanced more rapidly during the same time, IRST became optional through pods like SNIPER ATP pod.
Its only now with modern Russian and Chinese VLO platforms that IRST have become integrated again on US aircraft like the F-35 and AIRST to be installed on the F-22
F-22 is pretty damned scary….especially considering it entered service 18 f’ing years ago!!
The legion pod (for F-15,16,18,etc) is an IRST and has met requirements for IOC.
The biggest issue with irst is they have zero way of determining range unless you have multiple linked up and looking at the same target from different angles and you have a system that lets those sensors communicate with each other to give each aircraft a weapons grade track
In theory it is possible, the F35 for instance collates data from all sources so in theory it could determine approximate range via ELINT and location via EOTS. Additionally with enough reference information an optical sensor could determine ranging information, the same way you can guess how far away something is by how small it is. I'm not sure if any modern IRST employs an algorithm that does this, but it's far from impossible.
@@92HazelMocha the algorithm thing doesn’t work because of aspects and the fact that the temperatures of various aircraft operating in various situations varies massively. But yes as I said if you have multiple systems working together you can get distance info, the Boeing system being made for the f18 does this for example and supposedly can be used to target for AMRAAMs
IRST is useful, but it's simply not the game changer RuBots keep claiming it to be.
PIRATE (Typhoon) is widely regarded as the best IRST in existence and it's estimated to pick up the F-22 at around 20-40Km. At this point, the F-22 will have picked up the opposing aircraft and shot it out the sky without any issues.
There is simply no Russian counter for the F-22. They barely have a counter for the Typhoon.
Edit: Just got to the part Matrix spoke and it's basically what he said. It can be used effectively and can be a nasty surprise, but in 9/10 cases, the F-22 sees the Typhoon first and kills it before the Typhoon knows it's even there.
Though, put an IRST system on another stealth platform like the J-20, F-35 (as is the case) or future stealth fighter and yes, you’ll probably be able to claim that the F-22 has lost its competitive advantage. For all that we shit on the J-20, the F-22’s comparatively old radar isn’t picking that aircraft up until at most 30 km. It’s still a stealth aircraft after all.
The US needs to roll out the NGAD as far as possible if it wants to maintain an advantage in the air because at the moment, that advantage has eroded significantly with the USAF slowly losing its overwhelming stealth superiority and it operating inferior missiles to basically every major power (Russia, China and the European countries).
thanks for everything GR. love the content as always
Friendly F22 pilot here again; as you know the F22 MFD and SMFD are not modeled correctly… we use a gods eye view, sensor task fusion to build the picture instead of the old F15 radar display. F22 AESA doesn’t “sweep” like an old mechanically scanned array (V1). F22 is all Low Probability of Intercept (LPI) from an emission perspective. If modeled correctly the F22 is even better and FT2T. We also has IFDL a jam resistant low latency data link between the jets…. Let’s leave it there… but the real F22 is 5 times better than what’s modeled in DCS.
Great job guys!!
IRST is like looking through a straw, older radars are like looking through a toilet roll, modern AESA radars a like looking through a pair of 6x binoculars
1:42 the F-15C and F-18E/F both have the capability to use IRST pods iirc
thx
You need more than IRST to target and track.
I'll take the F22 every time, as we have come to know Russian claims are very dubious to say the least, that aside even with ideal scenario based on ability I'll stick with the F22.
The claims on the Su35's IRST's capabilities are still lower than the measured performance of western IRST's like those mounted on the Typhoon and the Rafale.
That went even worse than I would have guessed, the Tornado talk had me intrigued, but it wasn't even a match.
Now that Peregrine is available, I'd love to see if it's the game changer for F-35 that I think it will be.
Yes this is very interesting
Avaliable? The F35 won't even get the Aim260 until after 2028, Peregrine may never even exist, let alone be integrated.
@@92HazelMocha Available in game, and peregrine is a pretty safe bet irl. You could say the entire block 4 upgrade isn't a sure thing, or NGAD.
@@ur_quainmaster7901I mean there was a time when people thought that about the aim152, or the ST21, the list could go on forever. In my book, until it has an actual DoD designation, it's just a loose concept that could be dropped after any election season. Block 4 is a certainty but only because we've already bought so many F35's and block 4 only brings it up to the original standards outlined in the JSF program.
@@92HazelMocha Fair enough, but I think the huge investment in F-35 is why Peregrine is so likely. I'd like to see how it plays out in DCS... Does the fairly low range and good but not stellar kinematics/stealth make the weapon a game changer or not. IMO the limited internal weapons of JSF is the Acheles heel, let's see how this changes things.
"In this modern age of Air combat there are only two kinds of fighter aircraft, Stealth fighters and targets." Tom Clancy
NEVER question our Lord and saviour.
the f/a-18 block III Super Bug does actually have a first, an I can very much imagine the block 70 and EX have it to, but don't know
Friendly F22 pilot here (the real kind 😊) with thoughts;
Russia IRST is a relatively inexpensive offset technology to combat modern western tech. Russians do this well. However, the F22 signature (RCS, thermal etc.) is optimized in every quadrant but most notably within 45 degrees of the nose (let’s leave the generality there).
IRST is optimal when slaved by a radar which is difficult as you know against 5th Gen. in the F22 post shot and executing an “out” maneuver inside 20nm we would be in idle power if able and consider a curtsey flare. However, that would govern our position away soooooo. We have been working on an IRSTs for some time and you’ll see it on new fighters (let’s leave it there). As always great job guys! Really enjoy your videos….
Note: if you ever have the chance…. Take a mobile thermal viewer to an air show in the summer and compare the return of a 5th gen and any 4th gen or fat Amy aircraft. You’ll be impressed
6:39 Boeing is developing an underslung pod with an irst on the front for the f18
I am pretty sure they are already in service. technically they were a part of scheduled F18 upgrades for Block 2 but come with all the block 3s.
@@Darkfuturist They may be, I know they were doing the upgrades on the jets themselves but I wasn't sure they had implemented the pods yet
Actually only the f-22 has no irst capability. The others have it built in such as the f-35 or have it in the form of pods that are attachable. F-15, f-16 and f/a-18 can be equipped with such
All US planes with FLIR pods- the FLIR pods have IRST capability to build track files. This includes the FLIRs on current US aircraft in DCS. Second, check the articles on The Drive- their warzone section. IRSTs have been added to the Raptor super recently, and they've been adding legio pod IRSTs and more to all the other teen fighter planes. Hell, even the F 5 now is rocking them
thx
@@tippership IRST has been added to the Raptor? Do you mean porting the DAS situational awareness code from the F-35 to the Raptor's MAWS, which is physically very similar to the DAS? That would be useful, although it's not a traditional IRST. The F-35's IRST is implemented on its EOTS system, which the Raptor lacks. What the Raptor has been scheduled to get is more like DAS functionality, minus the helmet, since it already has the necessary sensors in place (and always has).
I am under the understanding that an L band long range radar can detect VLO aircraft at range...just not accurately enough for a track.
using a L band radar to get a general vicinity to search with IRST could be useful.
I think that is the direction the Russians went with the radar of the Felon..
the problem with that is that IR doesnt go over the horizon. no matter how good it is or where it is pointed, IRST has a hard limit on how far it can see planetside.
@@santiagotorrezsegarra7790
even radars have issues with making an actual targeting track beyond the horizon. if L band radar was used to pinpoint an area of interest for IRST the targeted aircraft would not have any way of knowing if an actual missile has been shot. all the pilot would hear would be a constant L band search tone with no active lock tone. one must therefore always expect a missile is inbound if any L band is detected.
VLO RCS is a useful tool...but only works against radar types in the mid to high bands used for targeting.
it is highly advised the we don't get lazy thinking that VLO RCS covers all needs.
a fellon could very well.slave it's IRST to it's L band radar...that should be concerning. if a less VLO felon can get it's IRST missiles off before it can be targeted by its opponents VLO fighters radar the advantage is to the felon.
this is a real issue that must be sorted out.
@Grim Reapers - Good stuff Cap. Detecting/tracking a stealth aircraft and actually getting a weapons grade lock on the aircraft are two different things. The CZcams channel: "Sandboxx", video named: "Iran claims to detect the F-35... and it's likely true" explained this well regarding Iran and the F-35. The same general principals could be applied to the F-22 Raptor with Russia.
IRST provides enough data for a weapons track.
@@92HazelMochait doesn't. It can slave an IR seeker head to tell if where to look but since it can't tell distance, it can't guide a weapon.
@@92HazelMocha Can you provide a source for that? Everything I have found thus far says that it provides the capability to track stealth aircraft but is not reliable enough to use to engage with weapons without the use of the aircraft's radar.
@@Jeffrey.1978source: this simulator and everyone who flies Redfor. You can use ELINT via your RWR to determine (roughly) aircraft range, your data link to ensure its not friendly, and your IRST to get its location.
For example: I'm flying the Su27, enemy is an F16, I see nails dead ahead and know based on my RWR's reading approximately how far away it is. I check my data link and see no friendlies on vector. I use my IRST to get the location and that is enough data to effectively employ an R27ET. If you ever fly on Blufor vs Redfor servers in the simulator you will 100% run into flankers and fulcrums using this to kill you.
@92HazelMocha yes, but in the real world, not some game . . .
The F14-D included an IRST that did work well. A newer revision of the sensor used on it is available as a pod for current jets. From what I have heard, it simply wasn't used much. The F14-D radar was able to find and track things quite well and no enemy had stealth anything to try it on. I'm not aware of any instances where crews got to test it out vs F117, B2, or at the very end F22s. Some crews indeed played with it, and from what I have heard them say, its abilities were at least as much as you described of the Su-35's in the brief. Many largely forgot it was there after training to use it as the powerful radar, lack of stealthy opponents, and datalinks generally left them not needing more tools to find anything.
EDIT: There is an interview I just found here on CZcams in which a Tomcat pilot DOES speak of using the IRST to track a Raptor. And he also talks of using the IRST to find a tanker at 190. Way beyond anything I'd heard before.
0:51 To my knowledge this isn't _entirely_ true; the AN/ALR-94 receiving system on the Raptor (ported to the 35) is capable of geolocating A/A and A/G (SAMs most likely) targets off their emissions alone and existing RF waves in the area. If modeled correctly you should be able to lock in a passive TWS-style method and fire without emitting or emitting as little as possible using the LPI radar, making it damn near impossible to fight BVR; every sweep of radar over something you can't see is giving it more accurate lock data. There are less receivers of its kind on the F-35 but it should be similarly effective, potentially moreso if it's fused with IR data from the DAS and EOTS.
Either way, it does give some truth to the claim that Flankers have a better chance than most other aircraft but their IRST experiences best performance when cued by the radar which defeats the purpose of it a bit. The Eurofighter would probably be the best candidate: PIRATE, Meteor, ASRAAM, good acceleration and turning
U.S. has stealth IRST Pods ;)
Personally think F-35 VS SU-35 would have been a better match up😅 still all around great Vid! Exceptionally informative intro, entertaining as always, proof of concept demonstrated excellently, lol and The D-3's were even functioning brilliantly!👍👍
Another potentially fun and different fight! J-35 VS SU-35!*
Problem is the F-35 isn;t well modelled in DCS, F-22 much better, hence I try to use it most.
@@grimreapers I see, I was just thinking it'd be a better match considering The Raptor obviously stomped The Flanker every time, and was thinking it'd be more of a challenge for The F-35 producing a scenario where the stomping isn't quite as bad ;)
@@grimreapers btw I still think J-35 VS SU-35 would be an interesting and entertaining fight! Could even add J-20 VS SU-57 later on in the vid!😅✌
F15, F16 and F18 does have IRST pods that can track airborne targets.
thx
Friendly F22 pilot: we are not afraid of a merge/visual fight. While not optimal when done properly it’s lethal. We can get to the merge undetected, use the 9x BVR and/or high aspect… biggest concern is getting “anchored” due to high fuel burn. Raptor pilots are some of the best in BFM. Theres a way to do it…. Hit me up and I’d be happy to teach you.
My favorite cope is "having better radar is a bad thing actually". The theory being that radar-seeking missiles can be fired at enemy radar emissions so the first radar ping that reaches the other aircraft loses.
Modern Western IRST are coupled to powerful computing softs that allow some general zone detection, IFF and some aiming/tracking, but Russian IRST are nowhere close. Note that French fighters actually use the excellent IR detection captors of the MICA IR as a sort of IRST, combining both IR captors of MICA IR situated at the wing tips could actually (in theory) provide some sort of IR interferometer detection system but I don't know if this is used as such (probably classified).
“Captor”? (I think you meant “sensor” but I wanted to make sure because the rest of your comment is genuinely interesting)
sensors@@MaxIsStrange1
aah. of course anything Russian is garbage!
There's an awesome channel run by an expert in planes that explains how radar works called Millenium7. As it turns out, the signals gathered by a radar are not like pictures like you suggest and the nuances involved mean that radars are not as good as you suggest they are. That's why even in modern theatre, it's not impossible for friendly fire in combat as the computer does not predict what the plane is with 100% accuracy, and if the enemy uses the same plane as you, it becomes doubly hard.
@@danielthuku8192 OK but we didn’t mention radar…
BTW, Millennium 7 * started being kinda sus to me lately because, ever since the beginning of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, he started posting videos bashing American tech and praising Russian equipment way more often than ever before, so I’m not sure whether he’s entirely objective in his assessments.
21:25 alone the SA advantage, knowing where all of the enemies are, while they don't, is really valuable
Interesting about the comment regarding German Typhoons in red flag finding F-22 - the performance of PIRATE has been improved immensely since Trance 1 aircraft - which is what those German planes were. The sensor itself hasn't changed - all the improvements were due to steps forward in the back-end data processing - which is where most improvements in RADAR have been found too.
Trigonometry on the fly.......SOH. CAH. TOA. 👍🏻
Douglas you are the kind of man I'd like to have a beer with.
there is NO WAY a country that has spent 1/1000th of the military spending budget of one country could possibly have better systems, better capability than the country that spent so much more.
that's a risky narrative to bet on alone.
@@up4openwhen ot comes to russia anything not a AK is far inferior to western systems
@@codyspencer9798 That's true until it isn't. The Soviets under Russian leadership discovered an awful lot of novel science, and are not an entirely incompetent people. Look at it like this, the Chinese are not actually known for high development, but having stolen everything the US has ever made, they're making good advances in other ways. It doesn't take much in the right place.
@@up4open I didn't say incompetent I said inferior Soviet quality ruin the good stuff they manage to make look at the SU57 they lack the same precision manufacturing as the US with the huge panel gaps and robots meanwhile the US is 20 years ahead of them
That's a foolish assumption, innovation doesn't always respond to unlimited cash. A great example of this was two internet service providers back in the day, one was critically underfunded, to the point of building their own routers and writing their own custom modem firmware. The other was heavily funded, could afford and purchased the best technologies available at the time. At the end of the day, the scrappy underfunded company had much more talent and the ability to create technology that was more reliable and performed better. All the money in the world did not provide the well-funded company a technological advantage. We are talking one company which started with $5000 in funding and the other with $100-250k in funding (depending on who you believed).
Being picky but the RF from the radar is the same kind of electromagnetic radiation as the infra-red being picked up by the IRST system, just different energy/frequency/wavelength. The active versus passive that you also mention is a better comparison to highlight.
Don't want to be that guy, but both radio waves and infrared are parts of the electromagnetic radiation spectrum... but very cool video!
I consider myself corrected.
The Raptor was supposed to have IRST, but it wasn't considered a contemporary priority because Stealth wasn't part of the battle-space at that time. Tyler Rogaway wrote about the USAF exploring adding the capability back to the Raptor. So far it's still vaporware. Can't link the article, but I've quoted and you can search the following article string "The F-22 Raptor Could Finally Get The Infrared Sensor It Was Originally Promised" .
"The U.S. Air Force has finally kicked off plans to integrate an infrared search and track sensor, or IRST, capability on its stealthy F-22 Raptor air dominance fighter. Under the Advanced Tactical Fighter (ATF) program, the F-22 was originally planned to have an IRST, a sensor that provides a significant capability to detect and track other aircraft at long ranges, including stealthy ones, that is totally passive and immune to electronic warfare, but it was ultimately dropped on cost grounds. Now, the service is at least looking at ways to insert the capability back into the jet." - Rogaway, The Warzone
An Aesa radar system is both active and passive. In passive mode it can still detect targets without emissions from itself.
ASEA is just hundreds of smaller lower power radars networked together with a signal processor to create one high quality radar picture. RWR has a hard time seeing it because by nature the smaller lower power radars are more or less seen as distant tracking radars when in reality the F-22 in this case with ASEA has enough for acquisition and firing.
Typhoons old mechanically scanned RADAR can do that too -it's no an AESA thing. AESA just improves resolution.
If I had to guess: Russia deployed it early because they were losing in a radar vs. radar battle when it comes to quality and/or they saw eaely results/the research efforts of reducing RCS for US jets and wanted to develop a counter.
SInce there's actual screenshots from an F-35 detecting a ballistic launch automatically from 1.800 km away, I'm going to say the F-35 IR detection and tracking capability is severaly underrated/overlooked in DCS and real world capabilities for those not aware of it, and the USAF's efforts to add more IRST capabilities to current jets via pods is an indicator that the technology is now mature enough on the US side to deploy en masse. I havve simply never heard any comment from the US military or a professional analyst state in public they're concerned over Russian IRST, so I'm not quite sure what to make of it.
I'm curious just how close the raptor could get before the IR could see them coming head on. Obviously with the engines facing the Flanker, they would light up, but just how close could they get before the Flanker would get any kind of lock on facing the raptor. Just as an experiment of course.
The IR could probably detect the airframe being hotter than surrounding environment just from it moving quickly through the air....but at what range? Don't know and if sensitive enough they'd likely be able to see a track of disturbed air just from having the aircraft flying through it creating turbulence.
The engines are well shrouded so there's not going to be much to see from them and even on a rear aspect the nozzles are cooled and with the high bypass ratio the signature is much reduced from the normal augmented fan arrangement.
In Red Flag there wouldn't be much training to be had if they left the Raptors to pick the engagement scenario as they would out in the wild.....so they purposely disadvantage them so both sides can experience situations where they can learn new tactics. Raptors are Bad Dudes.
Seems to be 5-20 miles depending on engine power level.
@@grimreapers curiosity abated 😁 thank you suh
I've seen one or two F-15Cs with IRST pods recently. In conjunction with the APG-82V3 radar, it definitely helps.
Current upgrade program for the F-22 will give it the F-35's IRST. But the rest of US F-25, F-16 and F/A-18 use the Legion pod which acts an IRST.
Even the IRST on the F-35 is an ancillary system DACS is a the secondary. So what actual primary systems are the F-35s using ? Must be something wow.
The Raptor and Lightning also employ IR reduction in both their skin and engine intakes/exhaust that's why intakes are C intakes? I believe they're called, and the engines are covered from almost every angle but the very rear of the aircraft and the nozzles are designed to reduce the heat coming out of the exhaust as well more so than they would be normally.
I also want to note just how far Infrared can actually work in optimal situations (even though these do not apply here on earth) the JWST is based on Infrared and look at just how far that thing can image in space. However, you have to take into account weather, temps etc etc all this stuff effects infrared more so than regular radar. Atmospheric conditions can play a massive role in determining how good any infrared works.
Excellent points. The Raptor actually has a lack of IR reduction. One reason USA is interested in the Tempest program (not buying but looking at it's development) is the the virtual erasure or hiding of IR heat (again claimed and major feature of the Tempest), we will see how it goes. Hence why the Raptor upgrades are on pause because in a few years if things go good then the Raptor upgrades will be a serious extension of the Raptor. Raptor is over 20 years old so if the Tempest claims are successful the Raptor will get the benefits of the Tempest. The F-35s engines are excellent at hiding thermal signatures probably best in the world right now.
The C intakes actually help with Radar masking not thermal. RCS primary exposures are engine intakes (1st stage compressor blades) and external stores (weapons and fuel). One reason F-15 struggled in Red Flag against the Typhoon was due to the Typhoon's compressors being made of diamond (I think) and the actual flexing of composites. Hence why Typhoon is not "stealthy" per say but low observable. If I was a betting man I think the Typhoon, Rafale and Hornet are far more stealthy than the Su-57. Hell I even have my doubts about the J-20. They use the same engines as the Flanker and that engine the AL-Saturn is an over-temped, low shelf-life POS.
So western aircraft are more difficult to detect at range, thereby making them FOX 3 gods. Now with F-35, Tempest, NGAD (possibly) and Raptor upgrades, FOX 2 missiles are no longer viable against them either. The west (USA, Uk, France, Germany, Canada) is clearly leaps and bounds ahead of anyone Russia, China, India, Pakistan you name it.
@@NightshadeX85Both the F22 and F35 (more so the F35 though) do have active cooling systems meant to lower frontal IR cross-section. You can see the heat exchanger vents on the tops of both aircraft.
The F22 also has narrow rectangular nozzles that narrow the engine plume greatly (it can hide behind the body of the aircraft more) which makes frontal IR detection a lot harder.
Just a note... The F22s rcs isn’t 0.0001m^2, as that is just the lowest possible return from a single angle (those are the numbers released for proapganda and selling points). The average rcs, at about 0.01-0.05m^2, is more representative.
isn't the reason why the F22 has rectangle and not round engine exhaust is to reduce the heat to make it harder for that sensor to detect it ?
It also helps with reducing the RCS.
Because it has vectored thrust. They can swivle up and down to redirect thrust, allowing for fantastic maneuverability.
It also has a S-tunnel so the turbine blades don't reflect radar returns and heat is harder to see.
@@joeblow5214 It has an s-duct for the fan inlet but not for the turbine outlet.
Great test and display, Thanks!
My understanding of modern Russian SOP is that they do much more of a "zone defense" than any of the western nations, so target discrimination is more of a Soviet style... not major priority as friendlies are really only authorized into their designated boxes and low level initiative isn't really a thing (and therefore doesn't have to be planned for). There are enough recent examples that I believe this to be the case including the downing of airliners, engaging US forces by accident, and reports that SAMs in Ukraine are shut off while Russian air is in their engagement zone.
As for American IRST... that'd be a victim of our SOP's downfalls I'd guess. We had the only stealth aircraft in the world for decades, we establish air superiority instead of accepting contested airspace, and we dumped most of our surveillance development into other avenues such as drones and persistent surveilance ala GBOSS and the like. As for the Russians, a thermal imager is a much easier and less expensive tech goal than RAM...
Track is different than target.
Brilliant video reapers
No IRST makes stealth obsolete. I do agree that the Raptors biggest weakness is the huge heat plume from the engines. However IRST is not gonna allow a Flanker of all things to get inside the Raptor. Stealth aircraft are used for Max Range shots. No need of getting close. Please note that the Russian IRST systems do not work in many conditions this includes heavy clouds, drizzle, clear skies when heavy rain present in less than 6 hours, temp variations of +/- 10° within short frames, storm weather, heavy electrical weather in atmosphere. Plus a whole list more. IRST is a niche system that works only in certain conditions.
Something I will give credit to the flankers for is their RWR. In the event that an enemy stealth aircraft vectors onto their position, the RWR wound be able to provide limited situational awareness.
I also think that the flankers could have a chance of winning a fight like this by playing their cards right; by using terrain as cover, it may be possible to draw the raptors in close enough to get an IRST lock. Pair this with a long-range, infrared r27 to surprise the raptors and a splash may be possible.
Of course, this is all hypothetical and would require a lot of luck and skill, but its still an idea that I like to think about
Fair points. It's still a niche victory, pretty much the only one the Flanker can opt for. Raptor can see that game a 100 miles away and has better look down. Russia asking to get hammered and get shot down whilst cowering in hills. Flankers best bet is to be in SAM cover and hit on a counter-attack after a certain duration time.
Incorrect with the F22 using 'only' radar, doctrine is that it only uses radar when necessary, it will datalink with other radar sensors, ELINT etc so it can stay properly stealthy, using other platforms to vector in the intercept
Would be interesting to see IRST in combination with L-band radar. That might be a somewhat capable "stealth killer" combo.
can IRST find stealth - yes but you have to know where to put it as it has a very narrow FOV. Falls down with bad weather and daytime use. Eurofighter is the top end of the scale and it would still have trouble detecting stealth
We already know that the B-2s and F-35s already tend fall out of the sky all on their own in the rain so that not actually a critical limitation.
@@badwolftx2139we still number 1 tho
Su-35s Irst has -15 - +65 degrees of elevation And 180 degrees of azimuth...
@@user-qn3xu5ee3t Interesting....so with two SU-35s, offset by a few degrees, or in combination with a ground station or two, it would probably be child's play to get a range solution too.
@@user-qn3xu5ee3t who's saying that if it's the Russians it's SUS AF and also just seeing something doesn't mean you can lock it and by the time you realize its there a DATA linked AIM-120 hitting your face
I would like to see this again with f35's vs su35's thanks guys!
It would be kind of cool if you did a synchronized kill show so three different missiles hit the target at the same exact time. Then score accordingly Gold-Silver-Bronze.
The only people trying to convince everyone that Russian IRST is really worth anything are people who can't deal with the fact that Russia has had very little technology advancement in the last 30 years.
Your Su-35S should have R-27ET's for this
Nice dogfight! Hey Cap, any word on the YF-23 release?
They haven't released it yet? What are those boys up to?
I don't know but I suspect that aircraft can IFF based on the 'sound' (profile) of incoming radar pulses, so the instant F22 pings, Su35 knows what it is and exactly where to point its IRST.... might be a lot better than you think...... maybe.... I still don't know ;)
“This is stupid…no one even killed a single Raptor”
Heard stated by dozens of pilots after every Red Flag
interesting, thanks GR
Passive sensory are great for not being detected, so they have their own value.
But most likely it is a lack of technology against the US, wich forces them to other routes, rather than to fight on equal grounds.
Similar with their naval doctrines regarding US carriers
I think it's about time to move on to Square millimeters (mm2)
IN this fight, The flankers BADLY needed taller mountains, to stay sneaky- getting RWR from a raptor = he sees you and you're almost dead if you can't re-hide and move elsewhere via cover stealth. The Flankers needed to stay behind STEEP mountains, and watch their RWR- keep the RWR clean, they can loiter till a Raptor gets close enough to IRST pick up. The Flankers need to severly restrict where they fly, as winning requires dodging enemy radar fully. Longshot has had a few videos demoing this sort of IRST play, but it took extreme mountains and focusing 100% on not getting seen via enemy radar over all else.
So, if you look at The Drive's The warzone section [ a site that covers fighter aircraft news]- the US RECENTLY just started spamming new IRST pods on the Hornet ,Viper, Eagle, AND even Raptor -
Something else EVERYONE FORGETS_ in the real world, the FLIR pods these aircraft have always been able to carry (including ones we have in DCS)-actually, DO have a A-A mode that lets you build a track file off of Infrared alone, so you'd don't have to turn on your KICK ME sign that is radar, to fight.
But E-D has nearly no ability to do this with them(the ATFLIR is the closest it gets, and it's still not really workable for searching for enemy fighters, nor does it build a proper track)
and the fact they just made IRST pods for the Raptor even though it's radar has LPI modes to not be found- is telling, how much the US is waking up to valuing sneaky infrared-only tactics, and to engage enemy stealth aircraft
I HOPE ED implements better ability to build IR only tracks on the current DCS aircraft when equipped with FLIR pods so we can level the playing field with Flankers and Fulcrums doing this stunt. And yes, the Typhoon mods, etc- all those planes should be able to do the same thing with infrared only- if only peeps would implement this ability!
The only thing flanker really needs in dcs is its radar capabilities. It should detect MiG-21 sized target from 400km And be capable to track it while staying in a notch
31:16 missile gaming
I for ONE would like to see how well the YF23 matches up to anything of your choice. In particular anything China has (copied stolen and or absconded ). With any weapons loaded currently in inventory or future . In short, I would love to see this aircraft war gamed the Sh1T out of, because I believe it is with out question the best fighter design in history.
The ATFLIR on the 18 can act as IRST IRL
now heres a scary notion. Attach a supercharged IRST onto a 'spy balloon' which has been proven to be extremely hard to detect, float it over somewhere you want to defend and spot stealth aircraft for miles and miles, relaying that data back to SAMs without being able to be engaged until the stealth aircraft literally get within gun range.
Except when the clouds come in or some mist or a bit of weather change. IRST is a system that works with favourable weather.
@@NightshadeX85 at the altitudes these balloon operate at there wont be clouds. Meaning your stealth aircraft is forced to fly at very low altitude making them easy pickings for ground sensors.
@@hughmungus2760 No. Let's say the balloon is at 100K feet when looking down with infrared the clutter will be immense. Look at the James Webb telescope and its build then you will understand infra-red better. Also why is there no 100mile range infra-red missile ? kinda answers your why balloons are useless against stealth.
@@NightshadeX85 while using terrain and clouds to mask thermal signatures can work, its publicly known that china has developed an IRST system that can detect jet airliner sized objects out to 300km so the tech for it does exist.
This means you have a pretty large horizon for where if you are above the cloud layer, you will get spotted.
best part is you don't know where these balloons are because they're passive sensors and have very little RCS themselves. So you basically have to fly low constantly, which greatly hurts your fuel efficiency.
From the pictures I've seen of these systems, they're not all that much larger or power hungry than your average high end optical weather observation module on say, one of those chinese spy balloons, which are hard enough to detect as they are, and can be made alot stealthier if someone wanted to.
The reason why I bring up balloons is they're also extremely cheap. Maybe a few hundred thousand at most, so they can be lofted into the air to form a floating 'wall' of sensors. Even if you could find them, it wouldn't be worth it to shoot them down.
Hi Cap, what abt f-16v with haveglass versus su-35?
Half glass has been tested it just a tad better.
Can try but in DCS the Haveglass does'nt give it a huge advantage in Air to Air.
Well that is nice to see and nice to know that we didn't pay tons of $ for nothing good. But I think we all know the Raptor is the best jet in the sky...
Is 5M2 a realistic RCS for the Flanker?
This aircraft is large, has exposed fan blades and carries weapons externally.
I would be surprised if the RCS was only 5M2.
Day 3. Request of the KF-21
Ten years ago I was working on future weapons technology. There seemed to be a very different design priority between Russia and America. While America was working on EM technology the Russians were working on reducing the reliance on EM systems. They reduced their signature and EM hardened the aircraft and concentrated on optical/IR technology. Worryingly if things were looking bad for them in a war they could generate an EMP and knock out the American systems. It's an incentive to use nuclear weapons!
IRSTs can be paired with Long wave (L band and below) radars to search for stealth aircraf, Long wave radars have no real difficulty detecting stealth as stealth fighters are not designed to be stealthy at all wavelengths. Once the long wave radar gets a rough idea which direction a stealth aircraft is, the IRST can look in that direciton.
Through miles of cloud, electrical storm interference, static background temps. Yeah ok. IRST works as well as your TrackIR on a sunny day with an open curtain. If IRST was really decent it would replace radars and not be a niche secondary system.
@@NightshadeX85 5th gen vs 5th gen air combat is going to heavily rely on IRST.
@@hughmungus2760 Yeah Russia and China are hardly developing anything close to an RCS of 0.001 so no IRST is not going to be heavily relied upon.
@@NightshadeX85 chinese GJ11s and the Russian S70 Okhotnik have lower RCS than even F22s because they are pure flying wings with extreme stealth contouring.
Given the direction 'loyal wingman' tech is going, air to air armed drones are going to be facing off against each other in notime.
@@hughmungus2760 Absolute bull the Russian S70 has 4 protruding prongs hardly a RCS helper. Also please let me know how USA has been researching stealth for over 50 years and Russia and China have not yet somehow Russia and China can match USA. Complete and utter tripe by Russia and China. Not really seeing this in the Ukrainian theatre by the Russians are we ?
Can IRST detect air to air missile launches with the initial motor burn putting out IR?
Yes and it's actually annoying. The one in DCS isn't the highest quality model, but you have this issue where an aircraft will fire on you while you're trying to lock with the IRST and you'll lock the missile instead. Because the IRST doesn't delineate between targets, you don't know that you've locked a missile instead of a plane.
Yes, the f35 uses the das as a very advanced missiles warning system. But as far as an early warning system for Russia I doubt it eurofighter maybe
@@Utubesuperstar thanks 👍🏻
@@Utubesuperstar could the RAF F35 use their DAS along with the Typhoons IRST on data link?
@@brettsallotmentgarden7501 to do what? Warn of an incoming missile? Doubtful tho the 35 pilot would call out to the others they have an incoming missile. The biggest issue is getting the different systems and airframes to effectively talk to each other.
Watching these "games" more like simulations, Over, and Over and Over.. the superiority of the Raptor is obvious. The F-35 is a stealthy plane but it does Not have the Air to Air capabilities of the Raptor. The speed, power, vectored thrust, the Air to Air missile carrying capacity gives it a Massive advantage. This raises the obvious complaint... we are not making them anymore... what we have is what we've got and they are going to be retired when they become to expensive to maintain. Stupid, Stupid, Stupid.
The Soviets made a missile guided by the IRST in the 80's didn't they? It would be interesting to see how effective they would be, compared to radar-guidance
If you mean medium range a2a missiles - early 70s. Those missiles are r-23T for mig-23 And R-40T for mig-25
Hey everyone ! how well does your TrackIR work on a sunny day with an open window and curtains ? Given the state of Russian maintenance and ability would it surprise anyone if the Russian IRST is more a jank POS than TrackIR camera.
How detectable are these radars on F22? I would have thought stealth aircraft would fly with these off tbh. I'll also point out that while Russia went down the IRST path before the west, all new design western aircraft have this sensor. Its an asset for sure.
It's too bad the F-14D isn't modeled in dcs. I'd bet it's irst was alot more capable than the Russian one.
isn't the IRST on Russian jets also part of old ground controller doctrine?
so the pilot is vectored in by GC, using IR and Home-On-Jam missile to reduce chance of being intercepted
AWACs and stealth reduced the tactics usefulness
American living near Mildenhall, Suffolk. Would love to watch someone play DCS, or let me try it out. I'd even bring pizza and drinks.
Anyone local????
I live 10 miles from Mildenhall. You are welcome to come over.
@grimreapers Ah that would be so cool!
@@grimreapers is there a way to PM you for more details??
SU-35 Vs. F35 // IRST Vs. DAS only
Cool
@@grimreapers After watching more of the video, it would be a fun battle to have everyone fly a different airplane that has some sort of IRST system on it. You mentioned the Typhoon, and I am sure there are others. Maybe even an F-4 Vs. SU35 just to see an old system Vs new system.
I dunno how relevant this YT video is to the F22 (being quite a bit older than the F35), but the "IRST" system will be part of the general aircraft detection and categorisation of targets where a package of 4 F35s work together anywhere between VHF -> IR spectrum. I thought that the F22 could already do something like this. czcams.com/video/m127ytxzL_o/video.html
a problem I see with this settup is that you don´t know that there are raptors nearby. as far as you would know there would be nothing there
Fair point.
@@grimreapers still really entertaining. Keep up the good work
Just because you might get a glimpse of an f22 or f35 doesn't mean you can track it.
The problem that I have overall is that no matter how much you can "fiddle with the settings", DCS itself will have a "basic" programming that X-is-Y-good at -Z ranger.... and I honestly think that the Russian IRST is a bit "too high performing" than what you would see in real-world situations. The BIGGEST being that if you don't KNOW that there are F-22's in the area, then WOULD you be using IRST to hunt for something you are unaware is in the area? Well, obviously the answer is NO.
So, no matter how well IRST works in general (either out of the box DCS version or tweaked) ... if you don't know you NEED to use it, the chances are that you WILL NOT be using it at all. Leaving you open to being attacked, especially from stealth aircraft that might be coming from different aspects that the IRST will not be able to detect.
Okay, but in this case
... How would f-22s know that there are russian planes in the area
@@user-qn3xu5ee3t - Probably in their pre-flight briefing of WHERE they were being sent to fly.
I mean, it isn't like they are going to be ignorant of another country sending up a plan.... .but the TYPE of plane being sent up is something they have no idea about. I mean, you would never tell your enemy exactly how many of WHAT TYPE to expect in an area, because then they can keep count of what they encounter to know that they got them all OR send X-more planes up in order to ENSURE they got them all.
What about the Raptor vs Typhoon then?
Is your raptor version downloadable and do you guys still have a training server it’s been awhile since I’ve played this game
NIce video GR but the IRIS-T on the Su-27 should be outdated new IRISTs can move the the sensor like the IRIST- Missile.
Rearaspekt should not be a problem Temps up there are like -50 °C ande the plane surface will like 100°C depending on speed. And you missed the aspekt of pickung up missiles via IRIS-T at great distances. In the end detecion of stealth is not the problem getting a fire solutions is.
IRST = InfraRed Search and Track
IRIS-T = German missile
I just looked it up EF Pirate can move (more or less like IRIS-T) and should be Linked to pilot helmet if i remember correct target identifikation at about 40km of corse depending on weather and givees hight and range of the target but not speed etc. @@zahnatom
Does the super hornet have irst or os that a fiture itteration?
Hi, greetings
May I ask the download of the Su-35? thanks.
There is an IRST pod for US fighters.... not Sniper or Lightning.
thx
Doesn’t the block III Superhornet have the block II IRST?
I've been following Grim Reapers after discovering you about 1 month ago.
Game idea
Have you read Bear and Dragon by Tom Clancy.
Also why not have Russia/China attack New Zealand with both Australia and U.S defending?
Watching those surf dudes running in from the beach to do QRA will be priceless
Do you plan to implement the irst on the F-35? Should have 360° capability.
I REALLY want to but havn't figured how yet. Many limits annoyingly.
Does the IRST you're using there accurately reflect the one on the Su-35, though, or is it just the Su-27 one?
This is the Su-27 one, I couldn't find details on the Su-35 one.
Does the Su-57 have in IRST on it? After watching a video from GS today. It kind of makes me wonder if the mirror finish they are testing on the F-117, F-22, and F-35 could be an IR and radar stealth finish. The only way I could think that it would work, though, is that it would cause an IR Bloom, and as far as I know a missile doesn't understand the whole center of mass thing. I have a solution to beat IRST, but it would require a revolutionary, and expensive change to an aircrafts design. The S-shaped jet intake is used to masked the turbine blades from radar, the same could be done for the exhaust, but it would need to be resistant to heat.
Yes it has normal Russian IRST on it.
Welp, it has 3... Those DIRCM are IRSTs with laser dazzlers
The Russian (going back as far as Soviet) aircraft continue to use an IRST because they haven't had a real opponent to fight in decades. They have been occasionally picking a fight with others who are woefully under equipped to fight back. Basically Russia has been, until recently, clubbing baby seals and interpreting that as themselves as being the superior force as-is and have not spent a single moment of time reflecting on any aspect of their clubbing operations.
What you wrote is true when it comes to US, not Russia. USSR (or Russia) haven't actually had any a2a engagements since korea. Except border defence shootdowns And a few sorties Vs israel in mig-21s which, need to mention, lacked irsts