PLA IS BETTER Than Carbon Fiber Nylon?
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- čas přidán 12. 09. 2023
- My @headamame headphones were in need of repair. The Markforged Onyx was experiencing material creep, making the headphones fall apart! Will PLA come in and make things right?
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This is not a material failure ... this is a design failure.
All plastics exhibit creep over time when under tension.
So, the proper design would have this clip supported at both ends, to minimize creep by doubling support.
the design has been changed if you look at their website
i had the same Problem and i can say it is a design problem, but the new version is better.
Yep, design issue, PLA is going to creep just the same, the problem is in order to make it look slim and cool they've got a thin part operating at a high strain with a lot of preload against the deformations/teeth.
The correct way to fix that is with a stiffer beam and lower preload/smaller 'teeth' to reduce the static strain on the part. Otherwise it's just gonna do it again.
Also, wear. Can't (pardon the pun) stress this enough. Gear roller instead of clip and corresponding teeth on headband. Eliminates creep, stress and wear. As bonus, provides more granular headband movement.
Pla will creep too, especially if you take it outdoors on hot days, and will creep almost instantly in a hot car. The problem/solution is either 1.) support lever on both sides to last longt or 2.) Do maintenance and remelt the plastic every few months or 3.) Find a material that can take static loads(most metals). This is why there is no long lasting spring(under tension) made from plastic. Otherwise plastic pew-pew devices would be possible.
Many springs are made from plastic. Nylon or polyamide is a family of polymers and there are printable types that would outlast pla.
Also polypropylene would be far better for a spring application because it particularly holds up under repeat deflections.
I have some knowledge of pews and there are many 100% polymer designs that are reliable now. Although most practical and durable designs use metal springs and tubes the bolt carrier remains plastic in many.
I think you should look into this. You will be surprised what has surfaced in the past 5 years and even just the past 6 months have brought many awesome designs.
Look on oddessy and you'll find ingenious designs and polymer adaptations of many classics that are reliable and durable.
This happened to mine and I printed in the recommended PETG, the problem is the design and was one of the parts updated for the new revision.
I printed those out of PLA and had the same issue. I was lazy and just gave them a bit of heat and pushed them back down :)
That's not lazy, that's the right answer. No need to waste time and plastic when a few minutes with a heat gun can reset it. Ideally this mechanism would be changed to meet the material, but fixing the part rather than reprinting it or printing an entire new design is the best option.
This is the route I think I would have gone with as well.
This
I can't imagine that will last any longer. I would go for ASA or ABS specifically here. At least from my experience. Hope we get a update video.😅
From my experience ABS is even worse for creep. PETG is good, which is why certain big name printers with printed parts use PETG.
@@andrecook4268 there are tests on youtube - ABS is not creepier. it is more elastic, but not creepier. So, ticker lever (for the same force), but deformation by the time will be smaller with ASA/ABS
You should print the V2 of the Headphones. That part has been designed to be supported on both sides on the new version.
It seems like a good solution would be to heat up the nylon part and bend it back into place. A better solution would be to update the design so the clip isn't a floating cantilever and is supported in more spots. Maybe the best solution would be to modify the design such that the tensioner is a part of the outer cup. The tensioner could be a nub on the cup which clicks into pockets on the flexible band.
In any case, this is not a problem of stiffness but a problem of mechanical creep. Using materials with less mechanical creep like ABS or annealing your part could help. PLA will creep over time too, particularly if there's any kind of elevated temperatures. If you anneal the PLA at around 80C for an hour, it will drastically improve heat resistance and creep.
They actually have updated the design (V2) to have a clip that's anchored on both sides, as well as posting their design files for free so you can reprint and use your existing speakers / mic / wiring / etc.
@@jasongram1287 that's wonderful. Thanks for the reply.
You will have the same problem with PLA in the long run. the fact is that plastic under load will slowly deform (it is called plastic creep). if you want it to last you will need to use a metal springed mechanism (coil spring or leaf srping).
Or use ABS. ABS has a lot less material creep than PLA.
Or use the upgraded head(amame) V2 that doesn't have this problem anymore! 😊
It’s not just plastic that experiences creep and I have never heard it called “plastic creep” before, just “creep”. Pretty much any material will creep to some extent.
True, PLA and PA both have it. You might as well print it in TPU, then you don't need to wait for it to deform :P
Polycarbonate is by far the most creep resistant, accessible filament compared to most other choices. In fact it does not creep noticeably at all.
Untreated Nylon is by far the worst creep wise - however, Annealing increases creep resistance significantly.
That is because more polymer chains realign into grains, minimizing gaps for it to flow/move around. More crystallinity - less creep.
Best video on this topic is on this channel (Formnext interview with Brandon Sweeney PhD).
PLA is not going to last either, its just a bad design. you have to design "buckle" to slide into then it can move as much as it wants to.
He needed a shock and awe title and an excuse to put out an easy video on printing; rather than design improvement using CAD.
Yes it's a problem with the material but a better design one that is supported on both sides would have also made this less of a problem. A part that is repeatedly loaded on one side and is held on the other will always sag on the loaded side regardless of material. The difference is time of use before that becomes noticable. with a stiff material a lot later so yes pla is better. But the design would be a lot better if it wasn't just supported on one side.
I keep getting comments about plastic creep on my 3d projects. Basically the writers keep telling me plastic doesn't hold up over time. I've used PLA for a lot of things that are said to be a NO NO...and yet some parts are now 5 years old and still holding up without issues. 🤠
PLA creep has been pretty well documented. I think it's likely your parts are plenty beefy enough to avoid it for the amount of stress they endure.
PLA sort of has the opposite problem though. It's a rigid material, rather self supporting, but it creeps under load. This can be proven in 24-48 hours with a simple test but in your use case it might be a few years before it's easily measured and should you choose not to measure it well you might not even notice. But the properties of most plastics were known well before they let random people own 3D printers so it's a bit funny to see people arguing about it. If your part is working for you good. Some people are just concerned. The great thing about 3D printing is you can always make another. Just hope nothing else gets damaged.
Thanks Jeff and could be the beef.
I don't see this as a material failure so much as the part design being reliant on external shape only for flexural rigidity. Internal ribbing/reinforcement is one way to combat some of that, or even external bracing designed to reduce fatigue in the direction of expected movement. All 'plastic' will have accelerated wear associated with the material compared to more durable materials however, just a given property of the material that you need to design around its weaknesses while optimizing for its strengths (somewhat self-lubricating topical surfaces for instance).
Just print version 2 of the head(amame) and you can use whatever material you want. The design is much better now.
I printed those pieces on mine out of PETG. Don’t use them every day, but the connection is still stiff a year and a half later!
Years ago when i first got into 3D printing and design i quickly found PLA to creep and deform against pressures. ABS or PC would be much better for the job, or even PETG if you're printer doesn't do well with those materials. I still have the flashlight mount i designed for my bike from about 8 years ago on my bike, printed in translucent blue PETG. I only ever retightened it once and has held tightly in position for said 8 years 😁
Hmmmm, isn't PC a better candidate for creep issues? CNC kitchen and My Tech Fun are great resources when contemplating the right material for your projects. ABS ASA and PC would of done a much better job Joel and your PLA part will probably fail even faster than the nylon one TBH. PLA is very strong contrary to the preconceived notions about it but being strong also has it share of cons PLA is known for being too brittle, creep, heat deformation and UV degradation.
You may find that eventually the PLA "fails" as well and that it's actually a design failure, and the mechanism is simply over-leveraged for the degree of constant tension produced by the tolerances. There's no real structural design testing for a part like this, it's assumed that it will just work, but at least for one material you've discovered that it needs further refinement.
Simple answer from the title: Yes...
In higher heat, strength and UV situations: No
So, we don't think PLA is going to do the same thing? I would expect any rigid material to eventually conform to the stresses applied to it, at least more than something semi-flexible.
Each experience, is a good experience. Good to know this. Nice that you made a video for this. 👍
Hey this brings up another issue: where might one go to find a table of filaments listed by there Shore number? With that info it would be much easier to get the right filament type for a particular job. For instance if PLA is too rigid but TPU is too soft what's the distribution of filaments left in the hard-to-squishy spectrum to do the deed?
The technical term is creep. Nylon is fairly ductile so it's tough and can take impact better than PLA but with that ductility comes a higher amount of material creep.
Is there a channel that concentrates on material selection per application? Interested to know which materials will work best with environmental/mechanical/geometry considerations better!
Is there a good channel that covers materials in application or concentrates on that topic deeply to know about?
Good explainer as always... also the world needs more Tay Tay and 3DPN collab content! 🎶
yeaaa… but what if you leave the pla part outside in the summer for a moment? I would goto ABS and if its not stiff enough make it thicker. I have had huge problems with PLA heat deflection. Its not uncommon for it to go over 100 here.
What exactly do you mean by "fully supported"? Only compression load, no bending?
I hope you do another update down the road to show if the PLA has experienced creep at all.
In fact, in the printing guide for the head(amame) it is explicitly mentioned these parts should be printed in ASA, ABS or PETG.
I had this failure as well and then their new version came out and removed that failure point entirely
Nice video, though I think you are being overly kind to headamame. That is a flaw in the mechanical design. Should have utilized a mechanism where the tension is not dependent on a single mount point with a fairly long cantilever, and instead used a two point mount, with an additional spring mechanism for the band adjustment. Heck, they could have used the design AKG uses and just used elastics to provide the suspension and adjustment.
CF Nylon like you used is going to creep in that scenario, just like PLA will long term as well. ASA and ABS are going to last a little longer, but ultimately you are going to get creep, and the fit will get sloppy. The mechanical design should have been around the material, and not just looks. It's a poor design.
This is the best comment. Thanks @evanprentice. @3DPrintingNerd please pin this!!!!
when will the voron 2.4 r2 upgrade videos come?
I feel like the design was partially at fault as well. If the Clipper-Doodle was made to go all the way to the other side this wouldn't as much of a problem. It wouldn't be as aesthetic though.
V2 has this exact feature!
PLA will do the exact same thing. PETG would be a better choice there imo.
Polyamide66 (nylon) which is what Onyx is made from (maybe it’s pa6, i can’t be bothered to even look it up as it would be similar conclusions) is a hygroscopic material. When these materials take up moisture they exhibit a fairly big dimensional change. This is not necessarily creep, but can be due to dimensional changes. The conclusion is still the same, the material choice could have been better.
Nylon is hygroscopic, so it pulled in water/humidity from the air and relaxed into that state with the assistance of the earcups likely pulling on it.. did you hang them up and put the weight on the springs continuously? The CF can only do so much when the deformation is a result of overall subtle material swelling and cyclic reformation, what happens if you toss it in a food dehydrator?. PETG would likely be better as a springy material, possibly ABS. But as long as the PLA doesn't undergo stress that causes localized fractures it will stay intact.. but it can also creep to some degree.
Flow is definitely a factor in printed nylon. You can significantly reduce it by annealing the printed parts. Probably wouldn’t solve the issue here, but definitely improves performance.
Repairability is King! 👑
Or you could have added a padding material in between or the design could have called for a small amount of padding material. The point of the padding material being to make the pressure to get the clicking.
I'm still very new to 3d printing. I bought a roll of cf petg off the jungle site, and found this out too. Wear resistance seems to be great and I love the finish, but certain directions of force have tended to cause premature failure for me. I did print my own direct drive mount for my Neo with it and that's holding out great.
Use PET-CF instead of PET-G CF. The G modifier is why you're experiencing creep
@@3dPrintingMillennial Thanks for the advice. I'm in Canada; I see that I can get Ultrafuse from BASF in that spec. A little spendy while I'm learning, but will probably go that way once my current roll is out.
It goes a long way when the main thing you print is joycon latches for your kid lol.
@@kstricl Bambu Lab sells it too. $57 CAD for 0.5kg. Still pretty pricey
@@3dPrintingMillennial pretty much all materials creep. It being glycol modified does not mean that is why it creeps, it just influences how much it creeps.
You need to make sure you orient the piece properly, the properties in the Z direction are much less than in the XY directions, so ideally you want all force to be transmitted in the XY direction.
Thats crazy, I just downloaded the files for these headphone and was looking at my filament stash and nearly went to use my pccf. Good to know.
PC-CF should be fine. Nylon (PA) is the reason for the failure. Nylon creeps terribly as it absorbs atmospheric humidity.
PC-CF (polycarbonate with carbon fibre) is not PA-CF (nylon with carbon fibre).
ABS, and PETG are also options!
i got the same problem happen to me and i used PLA it was wood PLA so i dont know if that changes it.
Polycarbonate or asa would be better wouldn’t it? Or a pc-cf base filament even better perhaps?
This! I use cf asa for hanging hooks precisely to avoid creep. Cf pc would be even better. Also, the “My Tech Fun” youtube channel has the best materials testing I have seen, and a creep test is included.
Lol? The PLA will fatigue and creep just as bad. The part is just not designed well for 3d printing being cantilevered like that. It does look like they fixed it in V2, which is good.
Why not add spine on back of piece or make it more triangular?
The issue with pla is you can't leave it in the car or it will fail in a few minutes. The only materials I can think of that will hold are pc or abs. Something less "creepy"
Could it be the introduction of moisture?
Hope u can review SUNLU filament dryer S4, it seems appealing.
Looks like a design issue to me
Come on Joel, PLA creeps more than nylon, these will last half as long as the last. The instructions for the headamame lists PETG for most of the parts for a reason.
They've changed the design now to stop the clip wearing out, as they say on their website: Longer lasting - spring adjustment mechanism no longer wears out
A. The part is a terrible design. B. The PLA will also deform over time.
🎶 hold on loosely, but don't let go! If you cling too tightly, you're gonna loose it, loose control!🎶
‘…she told me…’
nothing a hot air gun doesn't fix *gives an evil stare*
The new version of Head(amame) has a different clip that is supported on both sides, wonder why...
Would making a part that is anneal-able work better?
This is similar to people always asking if they can print their Voron parts out of some less-common material that they have access to. Really, though, your first pass should always just rely on the bake-time experience of the community - if they say PLA, do PLA, if they say PETG, do PETG, if they say ABS, do ABS. Then, if you want to use alternate materials as an experiment, you have a reference which works as well as the designers and community expect it to, so you can debug where the problem is.
None of this is to argue that the recommended material is the RIGHT material, or the PERFECT material - it's just a material which is known to WORK. Which is where you want to be the first time through.
What do you mean with "nylon is strong if fully supported"? Thanks
Nylon can sag over time, so if it’s fully supported along its length, it won’t sag and remain strong.
Will you be reviewing the Creality K1 Max?
That moment at 5:46 was slick!
Hard to realize nylon/CF would creep worse than PLA. Could the part have warped during printing? Nylon will absorb moisture, but PLA will too. I kinda agree w others the cantilever clamp isn't ideal, and may not have had proper tolerance. Fully supported clamp on both sides with spring detent would be better. I've printed PLA+ flat springs myself. They work for while then deform over time. I think you will be reprinting them again in a month or so.
I experienced the same issue with my first heademame headset it was PETG
You mean cf-nylon creeps. I tought we all found that out when the voron 0 cnc- kitchen built didn't work. Using the material the designer designed the parts for is actually really important. I remember a story that the brittish sniper rifles had accidents because the manufacturer subcontracter decided to use a different steel alloy. Also some people have replaced aluminium extrusions on some 3d printers with carbon fibre square tube and it was a complete disaster.
Moral of the story here is you can't always substitute one material for another, most of the time it's fine but sometimes the material choice of the designer actually has a purpose.
The designer recommends using PETG. And the V2 design is better.
Annealing helps with nylon creep.
Pla isn't the one. It also sufferers from creep. You'd need ABS or PETG as both these resist creep.
Nice! It takes a lot to admit your own failures, over blaming whatever else. Most people fail this.
Big Thumbs Up for owning up. Respect +High 5!
(now what are those headphones, maybe i need to build a set myself! ;) !)
and another Respect +High 5 for the apple joke ;)
Those are head(amame) headphones and they are cool - look them up!
I have experienced MASSIVE mechanical creep with PLA, I'm not sure it's much better material here
We are going through a design revolution.
For decades everything was injection, blow, or vacuum formed. Now with printing a new world of design is possible. The issue is in the design theory. Many designers and engineers still instinctively think in injection mold world when it creates shapes that are not ideal for printing.
When we break through the bias and the stigma of printing things will really start to change.
Another issue is texture. People don't like layer lines. Not because they are ugly but because they aren't the normal appearance of parts. When people get used to layer lines in day to day life we will see a surge in product acceptance and overall demand.
The revolution will take time. The best thing to do is represent the science of additive manufacturing in a professional way. Don't produce bad prints and allow people to assume thats normal for the industry. We all can produce great looking models. Especially with all of the great people and resources on our side.
I learned this about nylon long ago (including CF nylon) and stopped using it.
You should really update to the V2 model, this will also fail over time
i followed the instructions nad have the same problem. its a bad design
that piece needs metal. Impression 3 is not a general solution
look for the nkh headphones on printables
The issue is nylon when printed for thin parts is very flexible..the addition of CF is not enough to overcome this limitation to a proper degree in certain parts. I have done A LOT of research on this matter. I spent months pouring over mechanical specs of different filaments and combinations from every brand there is. The more expensive CF infused filaments are in reality crap. If you are paying more than $50 a kilo you are getting ripped off by name branding. Anything Atomic or below in price will be very stiff but not quite pla stiff. We're talking petg-CF only. Nylon is just too flexible in thinner geometries. A quality petg-CF like Phaetus or Atomic bring stiffness close to pla. Especially along the Z axis( pushing down ). Be sure to slice and orient the part in the best possible way of course.
But... doesn't PLA have the same issue? Over time, it will stress-creep (or whatever the term is). It's why printers are often made with PETG or ABS. You can screw them together and over time, it won't creep.
What about the PLA-CF I just got 😮😂
So the best question is: Did you know they would fail prematurely based on your material choice?
You choose the material for the design and also design for the material in mind… I don’t PLA will last any better, especially with its poor heat ratings. The design needs improvement to be honest.
It's so sad that nylon is that prone to creep. Having pla parts on my headphones and being afraid to leave them in my car during summer doesnt seem like a proper solution to me. CF-ASA would be perfect for this application though...
PLA deforms over time even more? That is what i always learned.... Am i wrong?
It creeps
When it comes to creeping, ABS is basically the king of materials for a hobby level printer.
Just about everything else creeps if under any load for long durations... ABS has a big lead on just about every other material.
Now, if there isn't a load, it isn't as bad for most other materials. Nylon is awful when it comes to creep though.
eww silver bolts, I always try to order and use black where I can, unless it has to be stainless
Let the kids hear words!
One hot summerday and those are ruined.
That seems like an odd design choice for plastic.
This isn’t a material issue, it’s a crappy design issue.
you could have just heated it up and put it back into shape...
The same will happen with PLA. You should use ASA or ABS.
Yeah just anneal the part this won't happen lol. At least a lot less. Annealing is extremely important for nylon printing and reducing creep.
6:25 i have a bridge to sell you...
i support most of my prints you cant print enough stuff
I would use PC or PC CF. You need higher surface hardness, impact resistance and stiffness.
This is why the low rider cnc is pla... super ridgid
TPU... a good tpu even at a mere 4 walls /. 30% is stronger and more durable than any other filament, so long as you don't need rockhard stiffness.
SWIFTIE!!! ❤🎉
Nylon is self lubricating. So not ideal for friction-fit pieces.
Sorry dude, and please don't read this worng. That actually is a bad design for headphones if long term durability is the goal. If I got all the stuff for those for free, and the stl's for free, I still wouldn't make them. That "mechanism" is crude and is not enough for me to spend any time on a project like that. Having kids has taught me to look at everything with an eye for durability. They do look really cool though.
😂 he thinks the same thing won't happen to PLA lol. I bet the same thing happens in HALF the time!
So far so good! Surprisingly 😂😂
Pla is Not a good choice I would go with Asa or pc
Yep! Nylon creeps quite badly. Anything that you make that has a constant load should be done out of ABS. PLA still creeps, but not as bad as Nylon. Assuming you don't put the headphones in a moderately warm situation, they should last two to three times longer than nylon.
If you make that part out of ABS, it won't creep at all for longer than the life of just about every other component on those headphones.
The creep problem is one of the biggest problems with nylon and one of the biggest draws to ABS.
Nylon is garbage material. You really want PET, ASA, or ABS for this, but even PETG or PLA would be better than nylon.
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Ok....somebody listens to Taylor Swift.🤣