Ken vs. Bombsoldier - ORIGINAL SET
Vložit
- čas přidán 14. 04. 2016
- The famous Ken vs Bombsoldier set has primarily been viewed as the VCR recording of the matches. However, Bach did record the set in person during the trip to Japan during August of 2005.
That said, enjoy this scarcely seen view of a historic set.
You can support the next season of Last Stock Legends and receive exclusive content by supporting us on Patreon!
/ laststocklegends
Follow us on twitter to stay updated with our upcoming productions!
/ laststocklegend
Team Members:
/ progducto
/ papapaintvids
/ gangly_
/ cartega_
/ brentos_fresh
/ tafokints
Bombsoldier is insane, it's crazy how far ahead of every other Falco he was, awesome set.
and he was 14 at the time if i'm correct.
14. Check the doc. He says it himself.
Was this a best of 7? I saw ken win 4 times!
Yeah honestly looks like a modern day Falco.
Rare footage of a Marth chain-grabbing spacies without hearing "AYE...AYE...AYE"!
Back then, people bashed Ken for chain grabbing during that set.
you mean "¡Olé!...¡Olé!...¡Olé!"
i was thinking about that and saying aye myself lol
I think I remember hearing that Marth chain throw wasn’t as prevalent in the Japanese scene so both bomb soldier and Ken were combing each other with tech neither of them had seen before
More like “wha.. wha.. wha”
Got damn Bombsoldier was truly ahead of the curb
+GimR curve
+GimR
You mean ahead of the *CURVE*.
+GimR Yeah, he would have won if he had not counterpicked FD everytime where he got chaingrabbed to hell and back.
starfox300 That's debatable.
+BoredOfYou I think it's fair to say he would of been better off with platforms.
This boy literally changed the entire falco meta forever. Incredible.
We see matches today where adaptation does occur, but it's very hard to tell. However in this set where both players saw things they had literally never saw before, it's actually incredibly noticeable. Pillar combos with Falco seem so obvious, and it's such a staple of Falco play, but this was one of the first times someone actually thought to do it. It seems obvious now, but imagine seeing that for the first time? That would be crazy. The same for chain grabbing.
I hope people never forget these two. Both were pioneers for their respective characters, and they deserve all the credit for that.
Bombsoldier is fucking sick
Man bombsoldier really is such a legend
3:40 did bombsoldier really do a slide-off intentionally in 2005? wtf???
Anyone else love the Japanese crowd? They sound so genuinely exited for the matches
+Prof. TEACHER is this bait? USA is 50x more hype in general
+Prof. TEACHER id also say more respectful towards both players
More respectful, but the melee scene wouldn't exist today if this was how the western scene was. Imagine wombo combo.
"........................................."
"clapclapclapclapclap"
melee is alive today because of the crazy over the top reactions of HMW et al
@@AlexRoseGames yeah melee is fun because of the hype but this set was seriously a welcome change of pace. it felt so calm and fluid and you can seriously take in the matches for what they are, exactly how each play is being made, just good solid melee not OOOOOOH OOOOOH OOOOH at the easiest of edgeguards
Hasan K It’s not just that. People just don’t understand the cultural differences between the US and Japan. In japan, everyone is much more respected and there isn’t that sense of hierarchy that exists in the US. Here, everyone just tries to be better than everyone else, while in Japan it’s about holding a level of respect for both their people, as well as outsiders.
And here, we see the origin of Falco
Can't believe this set is 11 years old. Bomb soldier was ahead of his time.
Worth the tons of allowance I saved up to buy "prepaid internet cards" to use Dial-Up & download the set. Very young to know the significance of this set but I remember the 'cool thing' (10:58) by Bombsoldier as I kept repeating it. I never knew Smash was going to get to such heights today, it is mind-blowing to me.
I always thought of Smash, before I moved to N.A., as the game 'nobody' (very very few people, maybe literally a handful) played as the MVC's, SF's, MK, CVS', Tekken's were what everyone played. Literally, the word 'Smasher' didn't exist in the gamers' collective vernacular at the time
Bombsoldier, the OG Falco main.
It's honestly beautiful to see how far this game has come.
Interesting stuff. It's weird to think about how revolutionary this looked... I joined the smash scene in 2013, so I'm learning about all this Melee history waaaay after the fact. Some honest thoughts:
To me, this match looks incredibly sub-optimal, but all that really means is that Melee players have intensely refined their play over the years... especially defensive play. Heck, the prevalence of Falco knowledge these days means that I could DI out of a lot of combos Ken got hit by. But could I invent this stuff? Nope. I'm a benefactor of a well-aged Melee metagame.
Side note: Japanese crowds seem awesome.
"I'm a benefactor of a well-aged Melee metagame."
The truth has never been put so eloquently. ;_;
+FlashingFire USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA
+FlashingFire Dat combo at 17:00 from a 12 yr old
+Zhuge Liang I'm lost. Some people keep mentioning 12, but when interviewed Bombsolider says he's 14 (in the LSL episode).
ThisIsWEB Maybe 14, still impressive, double lasers, jab down tilt double laser, laser nair to dair, creative noticed ken was looking to swipe him intercepting his jumps
this is absolutely legendary. thank you for preserving this piece of history.
5:29
Did I just watch bombsoldier invent the bombsoldier?
+Darth Plagueis Yes, yes you did.
3:26
thats not safe!
MrSupahnin10doh shorthop double from the ledge my guy
MY GUUUYYYYY
This set is so fucking cool man, it was the first time a falco ever did pillar combos, and it was the first time marth ever chain grabbed spacies on FD. both of these are absolute staples in the marth v falco matchup today. this is history right here. this is some dbz shit, it's like when vegeta went ssj2 in the buu saga and goku's like I can do that too
SSJ Goku vs Lord Freeza on Namek
Probably the most legendary set in Melee's history. I remember seeing this for the first time off of the Smash Hub. My god he was so fast, and reacted so quick. It's like a 2016 player went back in time to 2005. Somehow this being live makes it more epic too.
ItsBmeGaming the legend
-Rebaz
If they played other maps ken would've lost
Man, take a look at this. An amazing match, you could see actual adaptation, and respectful cheers from all of the audience. Man what a legendary set.
I honestly thought fire fox/Falco stalling at the ledge was something we started doing just pretty recently. Were spacies doing this since 05?
3:40 the slide off thooooooo
At first it's easy to say "probably a fluke", but Bombsoldier crouched a lot preemptively in the set, and was doing a lot of modern tech. His counter play was very good at the time and really ahead of everyone else. If he didn't take that break up to Zero Challenge 3 he probably would've beaten Forward and made it farther.
Yeah I did a double take at that. CC slideoff in an MLG-era set??
@@kardar233 it was almost certainly accidental...or was it? 0.o either way, he acted out of it pretty good. insane to see in such old gameplay
@@noodletribunal9793 Pretty sure it was on purpose. He used CC a lot and the way he reacted after the slideoff tells me he knew what he was doing.
I love how polite the Japanese are. They don't scream excessively and they clap appropriately. Such a civilized people.
3:39 Did bombsoldier do that slide off intentionally ? In 2005? The immediate shine afterwards makes me think so. That’s insane.
Yeah it appears. Throughout the finals he was crouching a lot for his counterplay at low percent.
13:19 Randy double shine in 2005. Who is this guy?
+Tselel He would definitely be top 10 atm if he kept playing
+globalHell How? the metagame has caught up to a lot of oldschool players
@kravten because they stopped playing.
***** True but a lot of oldschool players who kept playing have kinda fell of like Ken and Chillindude (They would still fuck me up but they definitely aren't top 10)
they didnt play it as consistent as other people would. when melee start hitting its peak they were no where to be found and even if they did, they werent putting in the time and effort to be a top player anymore.
Wow. I Felt Like I Just Saw A Piece Of Good Smash History!
Well you did so that's probably why
one of the most iconic and important melee matches.
is crazy and amazing to see how the meta has evolved.
so much nostalgia :') even during this time these guys are still miles ahead of me lol
The super polite clapping at the end of each of the matches, gets me, every time.
14:00 I love the use of the 4th dancing blade down right there. I didn't even know you could make marth's and roy's side B do such fancy stuff untill yesterday when I found it on accident while playing myself.
awesome sweet spot ledges and techs by bombsoldier
You know its 2005 when the Marth counterpicks to Dreamland
Why is it that watching Mew2King chain grab is fun, but when I see Ken do it to BombSoldier it makes me want to cry?
if only he had battlefield
da Melee metagame has evolved so much since this set but u still see Marths and Falcos doing exactly what Ken and Bombsoldier r doing in this set... rlly goes to show how ahead of da times they were
Wow bomb-soldier even pioneered the falco tech of miss shorten to SD. Truly a pioneer 3:54
doubleshines in 05?? he made falco lol
And the shortens, don't forget about the side-b shortens
Bombsoldier was the reason I switched to Falco for a while back in the day. Glad to see this set is preserved for the history books
Yes thanks!
Ken would've definitely lost if 5/6 games weren't on FD.
+Ambrosios Aurorous Just because he lost the first two not on FD? Ken knew how to clutch. That was his greatest strength. Doesn't matter what stage he was on.
+Philosophicational Prod. Smh he won because he was effective, and efficient aka good
Vimal Joseph Either way, I'm pretty sure it was Bombsoldier who picked FD both times, so he knew what he was in for the second time around.
Anyone who doesnt agree is blind Abrosios. its kinda obvious that bombsoldier was outplaying Ken untill he started to chaingrab. he even almost lost the games where he was chaingrabbing.
holy shit, even 2 years ago you were posting terrible opinions apocalypse.
on Dreamland he wouldn't have been able to chaingrab this easily. He won on chaingrabs alone.
On the one hand, it's awesome how revolutionary Bombsoldier was as a Falco player.
On the other hand, it's crazy how bad these guys are, being used to today's matches. Bombsoldier has no mixup game at all. Just in in in in in. Ken is more strategic, but messes up so many followups that M2K today would never mess up.
Also, WHAT 2005 HAD LEDGE TECHS? AND THEY'RE NOT EVEN CHEERING FOR THEM?
I agree with everything you say except that these guys are "bad," because I think it's more appropriate to call their playstyles/performance "primitive." After all, there aren't many sandbox fighting games competitively played in 2005, so there was still a whole lot to learn.
I do like your other points and comments though. :P
Bad is definitely not the right word here. This is one of the very first times that pillar combos were used, and Ken just barely created the chain grab... no one knew that you could follow it up the way all the Marth's do these days.
Like the other guy said, the playstyle is primitive. Like the monkey using a tool for the first time in "2001 a Space Odyssey." Awe indpiring because this is the evolution of smash taking place before our very eyes!
some of ken's play is actually bad, e.g. how he repeatedly double jumps before he side-b's, and how he seems to think that multiple side b'ing is giving him momentum. Also some of the DI is like.. absolutely no DI at all, even though DI was known at the time (especially in Japan). Plus random counters and side-bs which are basically just praying to hit.
Likewise tonnes of Ken's chaingrabs were sloppy and Bombsoldier could've gotten away if he tried to flee and regroup and maintain a bit of distance. It's also crazy that he picked FD so many times in a row after he won on Dreamland.
I remember watching this match as a kid. It introduced me to competitive melee. I got pretty mad over bombsoldier losing though, he was so sick, lol. This match is part of smash history, and my personal history as well.
It was insane, Bonbsoldier is amazing, good old melee ! :)
Bombsoldiers falco is like a super saiyan
As soon as bombsoldier gets knocked to ledge, instantly double lasers. This guy is gonna be amazing and I just watched 4 seconds.
Nowadays I don't think a falco player would keep going back to FD. Putting myself back when this wasn't as know (I also don't know what, if anything, there was stage striking). I think that bombsoldier went back to it either because he thought that pillaring was equal to chain grabbing, or he wanted to play more to try to figure it out. Whatever the reason it is still amazing to watch and see how far we've come. I see stuff we're are still doing, just not as efficient as we've gotten. That's to be expected when the stuff is just being found out. Love the sets, nice to look back and see our roots.
0:50
Did Bombsoldier know that might DI a back-air nearly straight up in this moment? Or did he simply know that down-tilt was a better kill move, so he executed it instead? I don't know how much people knew about DI at the time, but either way, it was a strongly conscious decision to do that down-tilt instead of a quick aerial and he ended up with a clean kill.
PogChamp
I think at the time in America DI wasn't a super well known thing, but in Japan it was fairly well known.
Wow the way Ken fought back and adapted...impressive!!!
He started hitting so much harder in games 3-5. He also DI'd Bombsoldier's combos so much better as well. I think Bombsoldier should have taken him back to Dreamland for at least 1 of those games since it can be a struggle for Marth.
From here everyone Falco main had the same style of play, example for mango, ppmd and westballz.. Bombsoldier was a genious, big geunious really..
okay that combo to end game 1 was an amazing zero to death
See it’s crazy to see players like Ken and bomb soldier just completely invent a lot of the stuff we see today. Seriously I would’ve never thought to use down b (shine) as an attack. Never in a million years. It’s just crazy how some people can just flesh out and lab they’re characters. Im thankful for these players. I take what they do and practice as much as I can to get better id be way worse than I’m already am if not for these pioneers. I could never come up with anything on my own. I play peach in ultimate and Never would’ve came up with the combos she has in that game. It’s just really awesome tbh. I wish I was smart enough to think outside the box like these players.
Man bombsoldier was still the first player i ever saw that tech'd the fmash and was able to forward b right back onto the ledge.. That shit was so mindblowing.. Will always love bombsoldier/jing
I can’t believe Bombsoldier is younger than Jerma
Wow, this was more interesting than a lot of current matches with big names. You can see them improvising and learning.
We need this kid back :(
17:07, I feel like BomBSoldier knew about ending this combo with a dair but held back out of respect. In the previous matches he's kept going for up airs instead. Maybe he did improvis on the spot
This is the set that got me into melee
I love the fucking golf claps.
Holy crap, at 5:21 it sounds like there's a crowd saying "Westballz! Westballz! Westballz!"
lmao
Yes lol, so I'm not hearing things
LOL!! I just heard it!! They must have edited that!
Japanese for Falco
Thanks for posting. Super interesting to see how the metagame has evolved since then. Correct me if I'm wrong but that many FD picks in one set is super illegal in tournament play nowadays right? Haha
+Grayzone As far as I'm aware, the Japanese ruleset at this time only included FD and Dreamland.
is it just me or are falco lasers on NTSC-J faster? his double laser from ledge came out really quick.
at 15:13 that was some frame perfect counters in between the cooldowns.
I love the japenese reaction to that
@@johnnycrash4892ouooooh
Literally came here after th Zero video cuz I wanted to check this guy out. He's insane
I remember when this happened. I think this is when a lot of spacie players started ledge stalling with up-b.
3:29 thats not safe
did bombsoldier pick FD on purpose twice in a row? im not sure how map bans worked back then.
What ever happened to Bombsoilder. Did he just get sick of the game and leave or did something happen to him. I assume he was pretty popular and it was impressive since he was 12
Nationally and internationally, it doesn't seem like Bombsoldier achieved very much after JGT. However, he did later come to America for OC3 where he placed 17th. He also played Brawl for a time but did not achieve as much success.
I would do anything to go back in time and show him the Marth killer...
Do you have any Brown Mario videos? :'(
+A Rookie lol what up. why you on here?
Firebird stalling and double shining in 2005 holy shit
Why do they keep going back to FD on bombsoldier's counterpick? Were the rules different back then or did he actually want to keep going there?
Not sure about the rules, but I think he purposefully went back. He probably didn't know about chaingrabbing, and the lack of platforms was healthy for his laser game, as counterplay back then was pretty much vertical movement on platforms. He may have also been more proficient in pillaring on FD.
its so weird watching this gameplay of smash compared to now crazy we really need to make smash 5 more technical like this even now melee still is evolving.
+Scoot Hiryu That's depends on Smash 5 being made to be E-Sports, or Melee HD, but doubt that's going to happen.
At times I was like "BOMBSOLDIER CHILL!"
Japanese people clap very enthusiastically
Jesus Christ those short hop lasers
I really hope melee lives for another 20 years
What were they saying at 14:28?
10:52 MINDGAMES
Andy Nguyen omfg
Where was PC Chris at this time?
they were smash players in Japan?!
I feel like if they had enforced DSR Back then, Bombsoldier would’ve won maybe
So just wondering, What's Bombsoldier doing now? He used to be so good and innovated great falco gameplay.
Adalbert Molina He plays fighting games like Street Fighter and Tekken now. He has a Twitter that you can check out
Up Throw. Up Throw. Up Throw.
Why would he run it back to FD 3 times in a row? Weird.
+Quick Well I believe FD and dreamland were the only two legal stages at the time.
+MrLasagna Also Chaingrabbing wasn't a thing in Japan and maybe Bombsolider thought FD was ideal for pillars.
+MrLasagna what happen to Pokemon and Battlefield they weren't legal as well?
+Manny Deluna Not in Japan. Several more stages were legal in American tournaments, but Japan stuck to those two.
+ThisIsWEB hi
holy shit that kid was cracked.
Bombsoldier's Falco would get it's ass kicked by Westballz's Falco.. The way Falco has evolved as a character is so amazing
Depends. If bombsoldier was still playing to this day, that probably wouldn't be the case.
ChillTerumi very true
it probably would be the case, bombsoldier was a lab beast but his success was mainly through matchup unfamiliarity. In East Coast Japan they knew how to beat him, he only got to GF here because west coast had never played him and didn't know how to deal with pillars.
Just like Ken isn't able to keep up nowadays, even if Bombsoldier still played there's no reason to believe he would be able to keep up with the likes of Westballz or Mango when he wasn't even considered great in japan in his prime. He got 17th the next tournament he entered and then gave up.
Ah yes back when I could tell wth was going on by looking at it lol
6:06 T H A T S N O T S A F E
I know you are a time traveler Bombsoldier how did you do it
Can confirm, Westballz chant @ 5:21
0:17 That’s not safe!!!
0:18 That’s not safe, my guy
Bombsoldier Kreygasm
Did Bombsoldier take Ken back to FD on his last pick?
No offense yes one of the comnents said back in japan 2005 the legal stages were fd and dream land!
Its crazy how much the Marth meta game has changed since then
Matthew Nazaroff not at all lol
What was the set count?
It was a best of 7 that Ken won 4-2
it intrigues me how quiet this crowd is.
+kirjian it's japan, it is to expect.
its japan, Japan have matches and tournaments that are full of respect, they respect the players and the fact that they concentrate best when its quiet and it is common in japan to do this, I think its great but it means the hype isn't there.
Idk why but I just love the respectful claps after a sick combo.
Bombsolider would still do okay at mid-level play. This Falco could have gotten like top 64 at a 2016 major. Same with Ken's Marth honestly, how's he placing lately? I know he's PR'd in SoCal so...point proven??