HP 3458A - Why is this 31 year old Multimeter UNRIVALLED?
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- čas přidán 22. 05. 2024
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HP Journal about 3458A www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs...
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Simulation: Dual slope integrating ADC tinyurl.com/yhcdn78z
Simulation: 3458A Multisloper tinyurl.com/ye9xuu69
Simulation: AD637 RMS Converter tinyurl.com/ye572teb
Simulation: Sample&Hold Frequency tinyurl.com/ydrxrovo
00:00 PCBway
01:27 Intro
03:34 First power on
05:08 History
06:55 Teardown
08:15 A1 Bboard
10:05 ADC theory
14:45 ADC in practice
16:20 ADC repair?
21:39 ADC error speculation
23:03 ADC success
24:34 AC error
25:35 AC basics
28:44 AC repair
32:37 Cable cap
33:19 Outgard PSU
33:47 Cooling fans
35:13 Mains filter
36:13 Plastic parts
36:44 Voltage reference
38:04 Digital board
39:29 Calibration
43:28 Results - Věda a technologie
Super glad you've repaired it !! Marco Reps: Look after his name, as he is destined for greatness !!
Dude! Where's your content! I was hoping for more of this test gear goodness and I'm left feeling bereft. :)
Hey, if it's good enough for Mr. Reps, it's good enough for me!
@@marcdraco2189 the channel was lately "revamped" in a certain sense . The gear goodness and all sorts of ppms :) will be available pretty soon !!
@@pitushi First time subbing to someone with 0 videos based on a single lab image :D
Well done on donating the meter!
dude, add some content to your channel, we want to see some of your work
21:00 No wonder it failed at that point, you mounted it on its side. This causes all the electrons to fall to the bottom of the hybrid chip and floods the ADC.
it all makes sense now 🙈
No sir, it was just unhappy to be standing sideways. It demands respect
@@anhthiensaigon lmao
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@reps gigachad marco
"It just means some non-volatile memory was not even able to do its one job in life: remembering stuff." - Oh god my sides.
I can relate to that chip
It's real stuff, very informative, educational, and interesting with a burst of small humors. We just can't help inadvertently watching till the end every time. ❤
Thanks for supporting this, and other youtube channels. I know its just business for you, but it seems that a bunch of the stuff you do is above and beyond what could be expected from a channel sponsor.
You guys are awesome. Love your company.
This is a good description for what i look for in most things i watch on CZcams
@@ztechrepairs k0
Pcb wayyyyyyyyy I love you
We had a saying at Keithley back in the late 80's and early 90's..."Nobody ever got fired for buying HP". We had a Josephson Junction standard and we monitored it with a 3458A. Incredible piece of engineering.
LOL, thanks for making my day with that tidbit.
Bought/specified/recommended plenty of hp in my day. But I was always particularly happy to get Keithley. Great stuff.
Try buying some of their crappy computer stuff these days. It is utter garbage.
Did you work on say the NIST reference volt? That is a thing of beauty there. Like a thousand perfectly over-filled cups of hot tea leveling off in a chain (the junctions in series AFAIK), poured while jogging so as to shake off the excess charge; I assume the antenna things are radiators.
@@TomAtkinson yes that was it. With a stable frequency reference the output was quantized very precisely. Small changes in frequency did not affect the output which was 8 to 9 digits stable and could be varied through a small range by increasing or decreasing the frequency until you got to the next "step". Was hungry for liquid helium though!
In the IT industry, that slogan used to be "Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM." The meaning is the same: The company is the risk-free option because they have been around forever and can be depended on, even if they aren't the cheapest.
16 minutes in and I've convinced myself I won't be looking for or trying to buy one of these. The pic of Rossmann holding a sign was the icing on the cake :-)
I'm definitely getting a Keysight one as soon as I graduate from electrical engineering. This thing is so fucking sexy.
23:00 that ESD clamp must hurt, quite the dedication.
WTF
why does he do it like that!
Thank you for the nostalgic tour! After an 18 year hiatus from Agilent, I sell EDA software for Keysight today...started with Hewlett-Packard in 1988 just out of EE university. Met Bill Hewlett and Dave Packard not too long before I visited Loveland Division on training tour. It is an incredible privilege to represent and sell products that thousands of HP/Agilent/Keysight geniuses have designed. These are products that design and test the technology that most people take for granted. Many of the largest customers today still use HP test gear that is 30+ years old! what lasting value. amazing. thank you Marco for this review of the HP 3458!
Steve how come today you cant just buy an analyzer that does more for less in a cabinet one 1:6 the size with todays chips ? (Im a plumber) So not holding any knowledge in this industry.
@@AboxofMonsters Yes. electronic test equipment is smaller and far lighter today..and far less expensive. CRTs have been replaced by flat panel displays...heavy transformers replaced by SMPSs...most signals under test are immediately digitized which allows wide analysis both in time and frequency domains - by using math vs hardware (as in old days).
As student of electronic engineering a love these types of videos. I also own the HP3458A. I bought it for 1,000 bucks from a company that went bankrupt.
that was a great deal even if it happened before the crazy price hike of the last couple of years. now even more so!
No one else could make the explanation of a 33 year old circuit more captivating. Thanks, those Loveland engineers sure we're a crafty bunch.
After the intro, I kept wondering what would compel somebody to give away such a piece of history. The next 25 minutes was all the answer I needed.
8:12 "No Quirks and Features will be left out" - Is this the Doug Demuro of precision instruments?
You said it better than I was going to 👍🏻
The first production 3458a's were offered for sale in 1988, but our lab first started using early prototype test units around 1986 -ish.. If you own a 3458a, get the annual insurance policy from Keysight, and it won't cost nearly as much to keep the unit in good repair. It is a good value.
It's impressive that it's possible to obtain insurance for a 30 year old piece of equipment.
@@thecatofnineswords when it's such a high end laboratory equipment yeah, it's kinda of a norm
I was having a rough week and thought, "man, a Marco Reps or This Old Tony video would be really nice." It was. Thanks for coming through for me, buddy.
That is an... _interesting_ and painful looking way of grounding yourself. Beautiful machines, I've been coveting them for years.
1 PPM per Month, that almost made me choke.
And a cal every 1°C, now that's presision.
5:32 The good old days of HP Journal, back when they put enough info out for some brave people to actually try to reproduce their magic. I'm submitting my engineering thesis tomorrow and it's basically my approach to constructing the TDC described in the April 1986 HP Journal, just modernized a bit and done without any custom IC magic (just some BFR93A's and BTF93's).
Since you mentioned the BFT93: Do you know of any fast (GHz-class) PNPs that are still in production? BFT92 going obsolete really screwed me over…
@@DavidNadlinger Hah, you and me both! Aside from getting bft93's and bft92's on ebay from shady sources, we're screwed. The world has decided that npns are enough for rf applications, so they stopped manufacturing fast pnps. The fastest pnp you can get from official sources is a painfully slow one (ft=400MHz or thereabouts, don't remember the part name) or you can pay an insane amount for an ic with 4 or 5 relatively fast pnps on a single die from Renesas (also don't remember the part number, but I remember it being >$10).
45 minutes?!
Thank you Marco for this amazing gift!
Oh boy, the voice, the technical talk, oh boy, so damn good. And I'm just couple of minutes in, cheers Marco
Grab a box of tissues and join us
@@jonathangallant-mills6434 its close to "Kraftwerk" i suppose
A little odd as a voice.
I used to live a mile away from the HP plant. Once a year they would have these open door events with pallets full of old stuff. For a budding electronics nerd such as myself this was heaven on a pallet! I'd spend $30 and came away with 200 pounds of stuff. I still have a few peltier cooler I got from HP.
That's an excellent ground strap you've got there at 23:33!
The binding post are special low thermal emf type. Made out of tellurium copper or beryllium copper. Sometimes directly gold plated with no adhesion layer such as nickel or chromium.
I have no idea what's going on but can tell clearly that I'm witnessing greatness
Hair clippers @ 20'51'' is brilliant. Thanks for another great video :)
As someone who troubleshoots complex systems for a living, this kind of work is inspiring!
Marco is a beast
Can't even imagine how long it took to film, edit, script and narrate this... Oh, also the repairs themselves. Thank you!
These sens of bonedry humor and this deep diving in electronics .. I just love it!
#allmightyBiegelehre
Bone dry humour and Metal Gear Solid reference!! Brilliant!
We have a bunch of these at the calibration lab I work at, and was one of the first instruments that got me interested in precision. One unique use can be found in the Fluke 5520 service manual, where it measures some of the simulated capacitance with a 5700 and a 3458A using its sweep mode, since the frequency response is too low for an LCR to measure. Talk about overkill.
Wow, please send me one, lol.
Thank you for taking the time to make your videos. Informative and entertaining as always.
I rebuilt a 3456a recently. Build quality of the old HP equipment is superb.
That ADC.... They basically made calculus happen in their board, guys are brilliant
Wow, this is the first time I've watched your channel and I already love it! Halfway through I said out loud "how can they add all this complexity and not destroy the signal they are trying to measure"? And the humor, totally spot on! Off to watch more vids...
Just found this channel and I'm hooked! Informative, visually entertaining, and the brilliant sense of humor is an absolutely fabulous combination.
ETA: Even your beverage selection is delightful. Bravo, sir!
My dad worked on the 3458, as did one of my coworkers. They really threw everything they could into the design. I've always liked working on the HP designs from this era as they silkscreen around functional blocks to help us work on them.
Your videos are so technically absorbing, and your switchblade thru the heart humour is to die for. Cheers!
Truly stunning work. Congratulations on the fix.
Your workshop and equipment drive me crazy ! What a wonderfull place with absolutely lovely devices... ! I love it !
I may not understand your passion for PPMs, but I certainly enjoy watching you chase them.
What an outstanding video Marko, love your cometary style, you are fast approaching HP greatness!! Louis
Impressive video, and impressive repair! Thank you for producing such an excellent video about such an excellent meter.
I am fortunate enough to have been given a 3457A as a gift from my Dad. It's not quite as powerful as its younger brother the 3458, it's still an amazingly capable meter to have on the bench! I'm glad you got your 3458 working properly. I hate the thought of such a meter being tossed into the e-waste bin.
👏👏👏👏
The animations you've included are brilliant!
Absolutely fantastic work as always!
Nobody will take my 3458A from me.......I'm making sure my coffin will be big enough for it as well.
baking soda and super glue make a great plastic filler and can be filed into shape. I even replaced snap clamps on plastic cases and the hinge peg on my cars visor mirror cover. You can brush on or dip the part in super glue and sprinkle on baking soda, repeat until you build up the missing plastic, then file or sand to shape.
I have actually repaired resin intake manifolds using this method. Amazed a co-worker over 20 years ago by repairing the intake manifold on his car that way. One thing I learned over the years is to use the runny, original style super glue. The gel style does not work as well and sometimes not at all.
@@capriracer351 the only kind i have ever known is the drip all over your fingers kind
Jeez you have always been the most engaging electronic engineer on earth. Glad the channel is going well. Thankyou for showing me the cool stuff and explaining it all.
Outstanding video Marco, your whit and comments add to the extreme complexity of your videos. Louis
Fantastic video. I keep dipping back into your archive as there is so much to take on, its impossible to catch it all on the first view.
ACAL was the Anchorage Center for Alternative Lifestyles up here in Anchorage, Alaska -- where much probing, measuring, and temperature increases occurred. It really put the "PP" into PPM
I could watch your work all day, why did it have to end ! great stuff...cheers.
Great to watch, we have a trusty Datron 1271 for nearly 20 years and it is used for automated cal of production tools. Every year it gets shipped for Cal I get a bit more nervous and need a backup so am planning to pick up a 3458A as it is compatible.
Regardless of length or complexity I'm hopelessly addicted to your video! Thank you :)
Macroreps 45minute video full of his relaxing voice. This is gold in itself.
I just watched this and didn't understand a thing 10/10 would watch again.
I love these new types of extremely nerdy videos you're posting! I don't understand anything! It's a thrilling ride!
I calibrate a lot of 3458A's and it's really cool to see this type of work because we don't do any component level repair.
Nice work Marco. Your videos/projects are a treat to witness.
Excellent video! Really lovely to see this working again.
If you're looking for higher vertical resolution measurement on the cheap, for future analysis, take a look at some of the Red Pitaya kits. Their 14-bit options start at under 300€ for a 2-channel 60MHz option, and they double up as a transmitting SDR (2x recv, 2x transmit). The software for them is open source, too!
I actually loved the simulation section, it's interesting to see how they parallelised the analog to digital conversion by basically splitting the input
Ihre Videos sind immer das Highlight des Tages! Vielen Dank und weiter so!
with every new video I see , I am extremely impressed with your skill set and abilities.
So happy for discovering this new channel!
I spent time with a 3458A on my bench for a few years in the 90s. It was a sublime piece of gear back then when new.
Well worth every moment of wait for this one.
Keep up the good work.
Astonishing instrument, beautiful work.
Awesome repair! I have wanted one of those for the lab for a while. Great Video as well!
Been waiting for you to step into this world as it is a world standard piece. You have fabulous gear and excellent taste in instrumentation. Can’t go wrong with your choices. Looking forward to more fun in the Marco Reps World. Stay safe my mates!😊👍🏻😷
Your videos are always a treat, glad to see you finally get to the promised land of metrology
That was freaking incredible. Incredible and damn hilarious. The fact that Marco went into “I ’m just gonna change every cheap component” was particularly honest and appreciated. Why is it I can never get anything complicated fixed??? Spectacular. I might have thrown away an immeasurable chunk of my life, but it had some real pleasure to it . . .
Awesome video and epic repair, was wondering how long before you got one, entertaining and educational! Still going through a slow restoration my HP 3458A, thankfully mine just had a faulty outguard power supply, still needs to have some capacitors replaced, the non-volatile memory has gone senile and cleaning oxidised frame from a blown Schafner someone never cleaned up. Unfortunately my 7081 has died this week, looking like 5V power issues, hopefully nothing else.
I'm impressed.. good work. And so good to see Louis Rossman in your video (right to repair) 15:02
Thank you for sharing ..
What a joy to watch! What an amazing masterpiece of engineering
I am definitely one of those two and a half. I Love the logic explanation! Please Keep this trend! I learn more from you than just about anywhere else!
I love this guys' delivery. Even I could get excited by a multimeter.
I worked at a very small business two years ago few month before covid were I was the only employee and I was mounting and soldering together easy pcbs. I had worked there for some weeks when one day a familiar designed instrument on the shelf caught my eye. It was a HP 3458A that had not been used for many years but looked like new, I drooled. The fun part is that the company never ever needed the precision it could give for what was made. An calibrated handheld fluke DMM was enough.
3458A often bought not for precision, but for speed. It can do very very fast measurements (some folk can even digitize 50 MHz signal with 3458A ;).
@@xDevscom_EE Cool stuff. But we didn't needed fast measurements either to what we did. I think the boss bought it just because. :)
I like how the steering hybrid is one of the few things keeping you from making one of these from scratch
Dmanit CZcams, why didn't you alarm me that a new Marco Reps video was up? I needed that sexy voice and dry German humour so badly.
Seriously Marco, your videos do make my day because of those little "IPA---- oops..." jokes have me crying with tears.
Oh and there's the guy from New York with his little sign! Go LOUIS!
Great video!
It reminds me my times in the seventies in a calibration and repair lab. But by then, the HP equipments were stil from the previous generations.
Nevertheless, I have learned a lot reading the theory of operation and understanding all the schematics especially when there was a malfunctioning.
This is the best meter review I have ever seen.
Congrats! Always great to get an awesome reward at the end of the long road!
This video deserves to be liked much more than one time. Alas, youtube restricts it to once per customer.
What astounding troubleshooting. Thank you for making these videos.
impressive hardware and rework 👍
Thanks for sharing your experience with all of us 👍😀
your video is always inspire me to keep on pushing even those things are tough
I love your voice and how you roll off the final worrrrrd. Sounds very cool.
Very amusing Sir. Like your dry wit. Most interesting from a technical perspective also. I have designed several dual-slope ADC's over the years - first one about 1975 using an LM741 & LM311 believe it or not. Worked jolly well.
THX Marco for those long videos!
I still use one every day as a calibration technician. And have used HP and the AGILENT ones.
that infusion in the hand at 23:33 made me lol
My favourite multimeter was the Avometer. Starting as a technician in the 70's, I still remember told to measure the current on the main circuit as an introduction to the to always having your brain engaged.
Excellent. I loved this latest video. Thank you sharing your fun with us. 🤗
Awesome instrument. You certainly went through the wringer to bring it up to spec.
I see vacuum stuff in the background!!!!! Can't wait for the vacuum series :D
nice and relaxing video, it helps me focus
Great Video, as so very often on your channel! And wonderful instrument, you repaired...
This was excellent. Thank you from Colorado.
30:13 "EVERYTHING IS CROOKED REALITY IS POISON I WANNA GO BACK" - When you return to using less-linear digitizers...
You know what amazes me about your channel? It's that you could pull of 50k views in just two days. Well done mate
Hi Marco,
Thank you for such a fantastic video! That was incredible!
Cheers,
Mark
thank you for joining the club :)
@@reps I've been eyeing your Patreon channel for a while, wondering if it was for me. Today's video captivated me completely and tipped the scale...
I loved the perseverance, the thorough approach leaving no stone unturned. I loved the simulation of the convergence methods as well as the historical overview.
It's definitely above my capability and I could not reproduce all your steps, but I learned a lot!
Cheers
Mark
I have and still use an HP3478A Multimeter from 1983. After 38 years, still running strong and reliable.
I also Have a Tektronix 465 oscilloscope prototype. It has a pre-production digital storage unit on top where the optional multimeter would go. It's so rare Tektronix couldn't tell me anything about it, and didn't even know it existed. When they added them in production a year or two later, they fit it inside the regular chassis and added the controls to the front. Sadly the picture tube blew out a few years ago.
LOL Another Amazing video and this time with a huge set of great honorable mentions. .... I liked in particular that reference to Chernobyl: "3.6 Roentgen, not great not terrible ".
"Maybe then my gear acquisition syndrome will be cured" this connected with me on a spiritual level.
Thank you so much for this! This was so well edited and produced, just a fantastic journey. Congrats on your 3458A!!
Thanks for the fantastic video! Your sense of humor and methodical attention to detail have earned you a sub from me.
This is the first time I've come across your channel, so forgive me if someone has brought this up since this video was posted, but I have to wonder if the mains filter was killed by the film capacitors, rather than the other way around. Those film caps look for all the world like RIFA caps, which have a bad reputation for failing short with age and shorting the mains input, which I imagine that sealed mains filter would not be too happy about. You may want to consider putting RIFA caps on your replace-at-first-sight list, if they're not already.
That was hilarious, entertaining, and educational. Thanks so much for making this video