Padan Fain, Mordeth, & The Wheel of Time: Everything You Don't Know - WOT DEEP DIVE
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- čas přidán 28. 01. 2020
- Do you know the origins of Mordeth, Padan Fain, and the evil that drives them? How is it connected to the Shadow? Where does it come from? We promise you'll be surprised at what you don't know. And, if you loved or hated where A Memory of Light left us, we'll be breaking that down, too! Come join us this #WoTWednesday at 9pm ET, for a deep dive into it all, where we'll do live theory discussions. We'll chat with our expert panelists, and you'll have the opportunity to share your own theory about Fain and Mordeth. We'll even invite you to call in and discuss it LIVE.
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The talk about the wheel blew my freaking mind
Great Show. This is my thought. I tend to think of Fain's evil, Mashadar, etc. as being sort of a sponge, soaking up the evil from the souls of men, and the more lives/souls it consumed, the stronger the evil grew and once the Black Wind got Fain, it filled this sponge and all bets were off. It had all the evil it would ever need. The two evils fighting each other being sort of a Sentient evil from the Dark One vs. All the evil thoughts and deeds of men. It's origins could be natural and then picked up magical qualities based on the human souls it consumed. Just my thoughts. Can't wait to see the next one.
Robert Kinkel - I’m partial to Fain/Mordeth picking up something in that exchange as you suggest. Whatever the evil is, it certainly does seem to be able to consume, evolve, or become part of what it touches. Oh...I like the idea that it picked up it supernatural parts from the creatures it consumed. Great addition to the conversation!
Given what they discussed, I like to think of Padan Fain as a loose thread on the Pattern. Think of it this way: he doesn't follow the path he should have, and he causes a great deal of trouble and chaos wherever he goes, even taking threads that should/would have been laid for the Light or the Shadow and making them theirs, and taking some threads out of the story altogether in the form of those he kills with his dagger/Mashadar.
To me, the best way to think of him is a thread that snapped and is sticking out of the greater Pattern, pulling some threads out of the pattern with it and making other threads that would depend on itself for support fail to be woven or weave in misshapen ways. In a way he'd be anti ta-veren.
My thoughts
If the Wheel is an AI Padan/Mordeth is corrupted data. The Wheel has systems in place to balance the Shadow and the Light such as Ta'veren, Heros and The Dragon most notably. Occasionally systems from previous iterations survive into later ages like lines of old code in an updated version ie Wolfbrothers and Min's visions, and also I think what ever it was Mordeth found. When Padan Fain, so corrupt in the Shadow already, came into contact with Mordeth/Mashadar the old code and the new interacted in a way that the Wheel had not accounted for and there-fore ''side-stepped'' the pattern, he became a point of imbalance that the Wheel had no system in place to counterbalance.
Perhaps the cleansing of Saidin and Padan's part in that was guided by the Wheel attempting to remove the corrupted code, Rand was already looking towards cleansing Saidin and the Wheel gave him a nudge to say I'd like it if you did that right here where the corruption is centred. But of course Padan is carrying the viral, corrupted coding around with him.
It stands to reason that Aginor did indeed look into these ''older lines of code'', not only did he express his familiarity with the evil of the dagger but he was also responsible for the creation of Darkhounds through the twisting of the souls of wolves, quite possibly connected to the Wolfbrother magic.
Damn, listened to this one again as a podcast today while mowing the yard (been listening to the whole back catalogue of shows). I so wish I had caught this one live. To me Fain is my favorite mystery left in the series. So much not given but just enough gaps in the pattern to get a few tempting glimpses.
I have so many ideas about Fain, maybe I will call in on a show that might be appropriate for the discussion.
The Aes Sedai knew much about this. Moiraine was a Blue sister who left the Tower immediately after achieving the shawl. Yet she knew the history of Shadar Logoth and Mordeth. When she told the other Aes Sedai about Mat and the dagger they all knew how bad it was.
It must have been a topic of lessons for Accepted, if not novices as well.
Just because we the readers don't understand it doesn't mean that it wasn't understood in the Tower.
The confluence of Fain, the "modifications" he suffered at the hands of the Dark One, and Mordeth is what is NEW to the pattern.
I don't know if RJ ever addressed this question: was the presence of the three ta'veeren unique to this cycle as well?
Thanks for this... I always thought the Padan Fain story was way way in the background for much of the overall story. He seemed like a major nemesis of Rand, then faded in and out until he was brought back in the end to tie up that "thread" of the story. With the forsaken being the main antagonists he kind of seemed out of place in most of the story... like RJ had plans for him that changed. I do understand a little better why he colluded with the White Cloaks and not so much with the forsaken. Considering the dichotomy of good and evil making up his motivations.
Tony Hartzell - That was a fun show! Glad you liked it. I need to go back and watch, wonder if we should do a follow up.
@4:30 - "The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills." Will without consciousness is kind of a great way to put it.
Thinking about the Wheel of Time from a perspective of astrophysics and quantum mechanics, we know that gravity can bend the fabric of space-time. Imagine a galaxy orbiting a supermassive black hole that bends space-time itself into a loop, a stable orbit of the fabric of reality itself that causes space and time to bend back around to the same point over and over again. The black hole, the dark one is a force of ultimate destruction, but the Wheel can't exist without it.
Super late comment lol but here are my thoughts/questions:
1. I never understood how the sun never goes supernova. *When* does the full reset takes place? Is it after the 7th Age (and how long is that then)? What would that reset even look like? So it's not like the universe goes Big Freeze and then there is a new Big bang in the new 'first Age' (which would have to be billions of years in timespan for the physics to be the same)?
2. *What* is this darkness that Mordeth found exactly? Are there even answers in the notes or that RJ left behind at all? Being a leftover from a previous turning that was kept by the Finn in their pocket dimension for a long time makes sense. Also the soul-sucking connection is there. Mordeth having found something in a parallel world through a Portal Stone works great as well. In any case, what was it actually made of originally (before evolving) though? Like if humans made it, what was actually mixed together? Or did it always exist in the Wheel, like the Wolfbrothers?
3. If this darkness/virus was unleashed (accidentally or not, by Aginor and co.) during the War of the Shadow, how did they stop it and why doesn't Lews Therin comment on it at all?
4. I think the Pattern failsafe theory if Rand was to kill the DO is the best one so far. The dagger's "essence" melting in Shayol Ghul is interesting as well, and it would be a logical way to continue into the 4th Age and beyond.
Going back to the Aes Sedai scene where they 'heal' Mat from the corruption. Just how did they even know how to do it and what did that entail? Where did the evil/corruption go? I feel like I need to go back and re-read this scene
I am a fantasy nerd and loved TWOT but this is next level!!
If you look at the progression/ evolution of MordethFain after he is infected and took the dagger, it takes time for the evil to fully blend into the host. As the host comes to accept that blending, they gain more control over the entity of Mordeth as well. The mist was the ultimate manifestation of the evil within Mordeth. It's not a separate entity.
Fain was initially intended to kill and replace the DO. He is literally absorbing different kinds of "man made" evil. Shadar Logoth, Mordeth, the Black Wind. Rand was going to kill the DO, realize that an evil is needed to maintain reality or whatever, and then seal Fain in the bore. Then when the third age comes again, the new DO is Fain
I think thematically this really fits with Jordans writing. The only evil in the world is the evil of man
@cletus jones I know this was forever ago but I completely agree.. it felt like it was a building of a new evil and would replace the current dark one after he was defeated.. because evil must exist in the world... Fain felt like a new and separate evil ... the edge of multiple evils shadar logath, DO, and mashadar... Honestly I was hoping that Moridin would be Fain's evolution .. it was disappointing for me
@@leescience when you accidentally write a secondary villain more interesting than the main antagonist 😂.
No he wasn't, his main arc is the cleansing of saidin. He was never meant to replace the DO. The DO has to be consistent as the wheel turns. Or every 3rd age there would be a new DO. I don't know where you got this but RJ never intended him to replace the DO.
@@elisampley7598 just going off the themes in the story, the difference between man's evil and the "evil" that is the DO.
Oooooo Linda hit on what I was thinking. But the DO exists outside the Pattern. Then again how we think of the DO is mostly through the lens of Age of Legends and the Third Age. Some ages don't know of the existence of the DO. Others may have a completely different interpretation of what the DO is which could be a Fain evolution.
'Side steps the pattern' means that he is a wildcard. He can't be predicted on a thread the way others tied to the Pattern are.
It almost makes sense that Fain became a potential replacement for the DO in the chance that Rand were to actually kill the DO.
Still only 20 mins deep on the video. Perhaps more comments to follow.
@18:35 - The Shadow being so asymmetrically advantaged, the Pattern had to correct by weaponizing humanity's toxic negativity into a cancerous preternatural disease. Then, of course, it had to compensate by making peaches poisonous.
My take. Mordeth was looking for a way to kill /remove the dark one from the pattern. So in essence you can look at his research as a way to remove a thread from the pattern. This is a corruption of the pattern and a different evil than the dark one. The dark one has a directed purpose and wants to use the pattern to bring an end to itself. Mordeth wants the pattern to continue but remove threads that he /it doesn't like. He found the corruption of humanities selfish choices to destroy things it didn't agree with. So when padan fain merged with Mordeth he sidestepped the pattern by in essence pulling his own thread from the weave and then inserting it to attain his own goals without directing from the wheel. I would like to compare it to bleaching a single thread in a pattern but still weaving it through. One single thread won't completely disrupt the pattern but it's easily seen as out of place and in this case is seeking to bleach the threads around it. The pattern would still exist but it would not be the same as the corruption spread.
IMO Fain/Mordeth/whatever's actual death itself? Fine, quite fitting even. The problem was he just disapeared for ages then popped back seeming to be this massive thing who gets ganked almost as an afterthought. If he had been a greater part of events and there had been more struggle against him and THEN he died like that, that would be much better
Oooh, I love that failsafe idea
I never understood Egwene’s distrust and coldness towards Rand in later books. It just didn’t add up. If her interaction with Fain did indeed slightly corrupt her, then that would answer a lot of my questions.
I think it's explained by the books. Eqwene throws herself into everything she does.
When she was on the path toward becoming a Wisdom, she went all in.
When she traveled to the White Tower she was all in, same with her training under the Wise Ones.
Once she became the Amyrlin Seat she was all in.
But her biggest flaw is she knew she was smart, talented, and in some ways manipulative.
Even after she dreams of the Seals being broken she disregarded the vision.
It wasn't until Moraine returned (someone she respected) she relented.
I always had the impression that Mordeth was a guy who experimented with the creatures of the dark one, found a way to harvest their powers or whatever, and went nutso with avarice. I didn't get the impression that Fain's first experience torturing or experimenting with Myrdrall happened in the books.
Mordeth just found a way to harvest the natural magic from things. Maybe that's what he got from the alternate dimension people whose name I forgot.
Too late to call in, I know, but I always felt like RJ set Mordeth up as a means to plug the bore without touching the Shadow directly.
The conflicting scars, then the nullification event of the cleansing... I thought he was obviously setting up that Rand would stuff Mordeth in the bore as something the DO wouldn't want to touch. Whatever the actual plan was though the end we got for Mordeth fell pretty flat for me.
Finally, Lanfear obviously.
Mordeth is the spaces in between the threads of the lace.
Padan Fain/Shaisam was absolutely terrifying at the end of the last battle and even though his death was a little rushed it was still pretty epic and satisfying. I'm also satisfied that out of all the characters to kill him it was Mat with the ruby dagger.
The evil in Mordeth/Padin In my theory is an unintended creation of the pattern. With the idea of the wheel being a super AI with an undeniable drive for balance. In my opinion, the creator is more powerful than the Shadow or Dark One. I would argue this is the wheels attempt to balance this power discrepancy between good and evil. The pattern gave Mordeth the ability to find this living evil it had created for the purpose of filling the power discrepancy. I think of it similar to the way the MCU symbiotic character Venom was able to join with Eddie Brock. The difference is that the evil corrupts and consumes the hosts soul instead of forming a symbiotic relationship.
Great video! Would love to see a similar one about the dark one, the true power and the forsaken
Mashadar is an old thing, Padan Fain was an old "dark friend" Mordeth was an old enemy.
I do very much enjoy the "failsafe" theory quite a bit.
Auron200004 - It’s certainly an attractive theory. However, with Jordan saying he may have side-stepped the Pattern...I have a hard time believing that The Wheel had that level of control over his thread. But...that’s the fun in the speculation. :)
So Rand needed a way to do that thing at the end of winters heart, so does that mean that Shadar Logoth existed because Rand needed it to exist for him to do that? Then you mix in what the shadow did to Fain and Rands need for that opposite evil to exist and combine them is that what makes Fain/Mordeth different, The Light cant win in the end without the events in Winters Heart. Some of the ideas of fate in this series can really mess with your mind.
Greg Hearn - Great point. The Wheel could have directed Mordeth to this evil, to then create Shadar Logoth for that very purpose. But the escape of “Mordeth” and subsequent amalgamation with Padan Fain, doesn’t seem like part of The Wheel’s plan. I love that. Thanks for sharing!
It's kinda funny how possibility and probability are treated equally in fan theories and how strongly someone can disagree with an idea for which there is really only a lot of speculation.
I want to point out how the combination of Fain and Mordeth in their various names and Fains story in general is very similar to Agent Smith in the Matrix movies. Smith was an agent in a higher position but disliked working for the machines and even more being trapped within the matrix itself.
He is ordered to destroy the anomaly, Neo, but as he tries to kill him, he is changed, doesn't follow the machines orders and openly rebels against them. He has formed a strong connection to Neo's fate that becomes increasingly important.
In a similar way high ranking darkfriend Fain is changed and follows his own goals. He also becomes the polar opposite of Rand as they are both part of an equation that tries to balance itself. While Rand as the Dragon Reborn personifies the triumph of light and the Creator, summarized as Order, Fain becomes the personification, not of the Dark One and not even Evil, but of Entropy or Chaos, destroying the Pattern whether its a good human or a bad trolloc. He is a destruction that has the potential to spread all over the world and obviously has gone beyond the control of even the Dark One himself.
Smith is beyond the control of the machines and threatens their entire matrix system by multiplying himself, growing exponentially. And like Fain the new Smith is a brand new entity that formed spontaneously but NOT randomly. Its not random because Fain similarly balances out Rand.
Both gain more and more power as Rand is drawn to fulfill his function as the Chosen One to restart the matrix, the wheel, and Fain is eager to destroy the wheel, doing exactly what Moridin is only thinking about and the same thing that Smith wanted to do.
And its a solid theory that the Pattern created Fain on purpose to kill the Dark One if Rand fails. Therefore Fain is just as purposefully formed as the Dragon but while the Dragon is always the same soul, the strongest of them all, Fain absorbs other souls to become as strong so he can match the Dark One as well. That also explains how he is greeted by Machin Shin as a similar soul absorbing entity and not harmed or attacked.
While many will say that Fains death was anticlimactic it makes perfect sense that because Rand did succeed Fain was not only redundant in his existence but also by far the greatest remaining threat to the pattern itself. But because the Pattern did create him it could also quickly and easily dissolve him by "chance"/bad luck while confronting the ta'veren Mat who is a function of chance as much as Rand is a function of order.
So Fain was just as much a tool of the Creator as the Dragon Reborn, he was just used in a very different way, turning a servant of the Dark One against him, like Smith turned against the machines. Maybe the Oracle had her hand in that, representing Choice.
Rand chose to cleanse Saidin which was quite a risk in many ways. He chose not to destroy the Seanchan and even chose to destroy the Choedan Kal and passed his psychological test at Dragonmount. Had he not done all of that maybe he would have failed and Fain would have been the one to kill the Dark One and be the "champion of light".
Actually he maybe was the true "backup" champion of light all along (unique in this age) capable of killing a potential insane or evil Dragon and the Dark One himself.
In the same way it is a question whether Smith was the actual Chosen One because Neo, while being an anomaly, was part of the structure of the Matrix all along, because not accepting the choices presented to him only meant that it was about time to restart the system which Neo agreed to and also agreed to killing Smith and protecting the Matrix.
Smith and Fain both represent a kind of virus but a natural one infecting and destroying structures of control and Smith sees Neo as part of the control system, because he would have been trapped in a restarted Matrix yet again. And Fain sees both the Dragon and the Dark One in an equally negative light.
On a reread you notice something weird about padan fain... Even though he directly interacts with the main characters it almost seems out of sight out of mind as if the main characters have trouble holding onto the memory of him.
He starts off like a gollum then becomes evil Tom Bombadil to me
I get major Agent Smith vibes.
I know I am late “ to say least”.. I love you guys
Lord of the Morning to yah. Lol In regards to threads in the pattern I always imagined people who weren't Rand, Matt or Perrin an Aes Sedai or Padron Niall as examples had one thread and all the more influential characters as mentioned above had three or more threads. Arter Hawkwing for example mabey had 3 to 20 threads as he pulled cities or nations to a different place in the pattern through his decisions.
RJ majored in physics so I think a lot of his concepts are rooted in the world of physics. If you take the gravity e.g. - what is it - it affects all matter but it doesn't affect energy. If we look at it as a power, where does it originate? He was also a devoted Christian, so he was familiar with the concept of trinity, as in the Son (living being), the Holy Spirit (as a form of power) and God the Father (as a form of will or purpose or creation). There are other philosophies, like Eastern philosophies and gnostics to pull from. And there are also other phenomena that are not organic, but can transform and infect and spread over matter and living organisms, e.g. fire. But we don't have anything that would act like gravity, fire or a virus on the energy or soul level (or at least that I'm aware of). So we have physics, religious metaphysics and ... magic or the supernatural. I feel like a modern physicist or a Christian priest could explain the Mashadar-Mordeth-Fain-Shaisan concept in a way we would all feel like it makes sense as in it's a concept that is known in physics and religion. Unfortunately, I'm neither.
Jordan’s description of the Pattern reminds me of Seldon’s psychohistory and the work of the second foundation (the Seldon plan) in Asimov’s work.
@28:38 - Fain's action on other Threads in the Pattern is generally repellent, as opposed to a ta'veren attraction. He becomes repellent to the extent that the Wheel itself cannot weave him into any part of the Pattern aside from the course he charts. Like a biblical Cain.
It was my pet theory that he was originally a Ta’veren. Whatever the canon explanation was that established the connection between Fain and Rand doesn’t sit right. The Forsaken never replicated such a connection anywhere else, despite how useful it would have been.
Padan Fain was a question mark in the series. Walking outside of the Pattern. Jordan didn’t have notes on him for the end. He could have placed Fain anywhere on the board at the end. Sanderson didn’t know where to place him and just killed him. A tragedy.
I know I’m a bit late and haven’t watched the entire show but I kind of viewed Padan Fain like the wound in Rand’s side with the two distinct evils fighting against each other to destroy Rand ( the light). I have no idea if this is a fresh take or not as I only finished reading A Memory of Light a week ago. Just my two cents
How come nobody ever mentions that Fain has to have encountered the Black Wind at the exit from the ways at Fal Dara? Previous to this event the Wind appears to just wander randomly around the ways, and afterwards seems to be at whatever gate Rand is near, even "guarding" said gate. This suggests to me that there is a transfer of abilities between them at least.
Perhaps this would be a good video for the Innkeeper to post that link to the various metaphysic posts he had mentioned he was going to link to a few weeks ago?
@23:38 - The Creator could have conceivably made other Wheels, spinning their own Patterns. Maybe a Marvel "Many-Angled Ones" kind of thing, tapping into the proverbial "Dark One" of a totally different Wheel.
By *not sentient* it might be more accurate to say it's amoral. If the analogy is with the most advanced AI imaginable then that is certainly sentient though it is a sentience that is aware of not just itself as we are but is aware of everything that is or could be and is charged by the creator to actualize all potential worlds. So we see the world's connected via portal stones as parallel worlds that do exist and are manifest though they are not the pattern selected by the AI as the preferred one. I would say the "actual" world but they do exist and having different kinds of existence is incoherent so they're real but don't have some quality that the AI is selecting for. The metaphysics of WoT would be super interesting to delve into
@39:30 - Maybe also Eamon Valda via Dain Bornhald. Byar's a zealot, but he's a zealot with a code. Dain's downward spiral ended up infecting Valda. When he first shows up to the Dome under the new Lord Captain Commander, he's getting hammered and gets chastistised for impropriety. Mordeth's spread to Valda totally evokes the "whatever means necessary" going too far, I could see Dain as patient zero among the Children because of his alliance with Fain in the Two Rivers.
John Allen he already had pedron Niall’s ear at start of TDR
Ps doesn’t mean you not right
Maybe, the character is created by the pattern because there's too many Taveren at once, from the same town. Unusual cooperation between them needed a balance ?
Love the finn theory
Great video. But I don't quite like the reference of an IA as the Wheel and the Matrix as the Pattern. There's something we all are deeply familiar with, cause we're part of it, yet can't see in its entirety, which can help explain the concept of WoT: the history of life on Earth. Granted, where there was "the" beginning and there will be "the" end, the rest history of life on our planet is just a repeating cycle of evolution with life reinventing itself and creatures emerging and disappearing, evolving directly from each other but totally different and unfamiliar over a long period of time. Nature also is or has a self correcting mechanism, with trillions of ways to maintain balance but adaptable enough not to seem repetitive. From an individual or collective experience in a given period of time we cannot experience all that, but we know each cell is coded and that we are part of one era with eras past and coming. Ok, we do not have a DO in this model or the Dragon, no epic repeating battle of evil vs good, not physically at least, but there are reset mechanism (catastrophes and ice ages) which are just as effective in resetting the world.
If we think about opposites again, well I would place the dagger as the link between Matt and Fain. Now, having Matt's luck, it makes sense that all the evils in the world would meet at one point to make the unluckiest character in the wheel of time. 🤣🤣
Bonus:
The only way someone could be so unlucky, and not ever have things go their way and balance out, would be to sidestep the pattern.
Yay? Nay? 😅😉🤣
I wonder if Mordeth would of had more things to do if Jordan had not passed.
How would one know the difference between the pattern forcing taveren and taveren forcing the pattern? I also think the Aussie missed the idea that because Mordeth unwittingly sidestepped the pattern, then this implies that the pattern can be wittingly sidestepped...and this may be a kind of evil. Super interesting idea if one sees good and evil in classical theological terms where good is that which comports to God, or God's nature, God's will etc and evil is that which does not. So like the myth of Lucifer bucking the will of God and being in rebellion. So there are some unexplored parallels there.
I hated the Fain ending so any sort of theory that gives it a bit more meaning or insight I am all in on.
What is Mordeth, or rather, the evil inside mordeth, is an alien, or rather, an interdimensional traveler
I always think of the wheel like the Deists saw God. The creator creates the system and then leaves it to function.Humans are mad based in a pattern but they function on their own. I suspect it is built on Jordan's experience of Vietnamese Buddhist metaphysics where karma is a law but it's WEAVING is so complex, you can never quite unravel its pattern. Also, it is impersonal in intent. Actions have consequences because that's how things work, NOT because people get what they deserve.
@1:00:16 Preternatural, like Scarlett Letter level.
Fun discussion but humorously irrelevant in the overall context of a fictional theology. ;) Of course, others could say the same about similar discussions I’ve gotten into regarding free will vs predestination in a Christian worldview context. :) thanks for the deep dives, you guys
Rob Christianson - Fun discussion but humorously irrelevant...is very on point for us! :). You’re welcome, and we’ll keep doing them. I’ll try not to make them only about my favorite “things”.
I recently saw episode 2 of The Wheel of Time and I'm a little disappointed (though I do understand why) they cut out Mordeth altogether from the story; just like what they did with similar "In-Universe Anomalies" from other epic fantasy books (like Tom Bombadil from LOTR and Patch-Face from ASOIAF).
My problem with Padan Fain is that I don't believe Jordan was consistent with his presentation of evil and how the Padan Fain evil was an antithesis to The Dark One's evil on the dimension of evil in the early books, and specifically the Dark One's treatment in aMoL, which I think is weak sauce and also inconsistent. Meaning, the main thing, the Dark One A) has intrinsic power, and B) is something outside of the pattern. The Dark One wants to break the pattern because the Dark One wants to be the creator. He is the antithesis to the creator across the dimension of creation, in the sense of he is opposed to creation. This is why the True Power rips apart the pattern. This is why the Dark One wants to break the wheel. If the Dark One is not imprisoned, he's going to break the wheel, and humans aren't going to break it for him. He is specifically an OUTSIDE threat. The Trollocs and Fades and the blight are all twisting of creation. Padan Fain/Mordeth height innate human evil. What this means is that the end of aMoL is BAD and WRONG. It's a Sanderson creation. The biggest tip-off should have been how hokey it was. In the original version of what would become WoT the DO was some sort of interdimensional alien battle lord.
Now that I'm not busy chatting with all the wonderful people in the Live Chat, I can really pay attention to this one. So here follow my thoughts and commentary as I watched this weeks installment of *The* *Dusty* *Wheel.*
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I'm not picturing an advanced, non-sentient AI, my mind is conjuring this image of DNA and RNA transcription from a video I saw once ( czcams.com/video/41_Ne5mS2ls/video.html ). Now, of course this is *_NOT_* an exact analogy by any means, and it is pretty messy, but it can help visualise, sort of, what I am picturing in my hippie brain. My mind imagines The Wheel as that blue molecule you see that zips down the strand of DNA, but instead of transcribing the DNA, it is *weaving* all the threads that it is approaching into the Pattern that it leaves behind (and of course ignore the RNA coming out the side of that blue molecule, it isn't part of the analogy). So I guess you could say I imagine the Wheel more as a _super_ _complex_ _molecule,_ which, when you think about it is really just a sort of analog computer, a computer Charles Babbage would be more likely to understand than Steve Wozniak. I don't attribute any Intelligence to it, let alone Sentience. I think all corrective mechanisms are exactly that: _mechanistic_ and _automatic;_ the basic reactive functions of the system if something in particular goes awry, not keyed off by any conscious "decision," but by the mechanical equivalent of an "If/Then" statement. Now, _of_ _course_ this Wheel in my head is much more "wheel-like" than that blob-like molecule that you see in the video, but the functionality, the way it goes, is what is important to take away from the video, as messy of an analogy as it is. Yes, I realise this is probably crazy and confusing, and a really bad analogy, but it's the closest I can get in under a thousand words. [Continued in replies]
Too many shifts in the Pattern, even if brought about by small choices, could will be self-corrected somehow by the Wheel, over great lengths of time, to keep the Pattern in line. The Wheel weaves as the Wheel "wills," after all. Even though Rand, Mat and Perrin had many instances of free will, there was plenty of time where, at least for Mat and Perrin, they were feeling _pulled_ somewhere (to Rand). And forgive me for asking what must seem a stupid question (it's been years since I read the series), but did Rand ever feel _pulled_ someplace, or like he had a _need_ to do a certain act, some sort of sign that he was struggling, even in a small way, to maintain total free will against what the Pattern was trying to weave? I'll be honest, I don't off hand recall such, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was at least one scene like that out of 4 million words. If there wasn't, at least one of the three escaped that fate. (Pun intended.)
Okay, so Mordeth went searching for something to defeat the Dark One, and basically found Ungoliant (to Shai'tan's Morgoth)? So when Padan Fain was corrupted, was it Mordeth, or that Other Evil (Ungoliant😎) that corrupted the one-time Darkfriend peddler? Having fun with analogies and allusions aside, it seems that Mordeth tapped into some other magic system, a third one that was unknown (if you're count channeling and then T'A'R as the first two; fourth if you count wolfbrothers as a "system," and that's not even getting into what Min sees, or Myrddraal travelling thru shadows, whatever is going on in and with Finnland -- who was it that said *WoT* only had two magic systems?? I'm sure I heard someone on CZcams try passing off that bullhockey, LOL). This system seems another "Soft System," like Tel'aran'rhiod is, at least from the little we see of it. And apparently it was known to some in the Age of Legends, by what Aginor said at the Eye of the World. But that knowledge could only have occurred _after_ Mierin and Beidomon drilled the Bore, since everything we've been led to believe about the world before that point during the AoL is that it was the ideal utopia, that the world knew not evil or ills. So I cannot imagine an evil of the sort that Mordeth uncovered existing, or being known, anytime before the Bore.
*"More* *than* *an* *illusion,* *less* *than* *real,"* said Brandon Sanderson as he smiled at the puzzled faces of the fans. Glenn just looked at him and said "hey man, whatever you're smoking... just puffpuff pass my man, puffpuff pass.😎" (That's the only explanation I can think of, but I know it isn't the factual truth, since I am 100% _positive_ Brandon doesn't smoke, which is fine by me, and I wouldn't even try to get him to, so no _actual_ intent to imply Brandon actually consumes any substances.)
Of course, the "old thing, old friend, old enemy" line from Aginor would make sense if Aginor had some sort of extended soul-memory like Ishamael does, remembering back in past turnings of the Wheel, because indeed this Man Made Evil _is_ _old._ Padan Fain and Mordeth might be unique to this Third Age, but Jordan did _not_ say this Evil was, and the earlier quotes made it clear that the Evil is separate from Mordeth, that it is something he discovered. So it was there even without him and Fain. There could have been other ways and means for it to have manifested or been made apparent in previous Ages, Third Age or otherwise. But we have no real evidence that Aginor has such deep memory, although his description of this Evil is totally apt. I think Matt might be on to something with his idea about Aginor's genetics and biological research, though, it is an intriguing idea. But the idea I like the most (and I mentioned it in the chat, though I couldn't remember the name correctly) is that the Mashadar/Mordeth Evil is actually Redjac from Star Trek (TOS episode 2.14 "Wolf in the Fold"). If not Redjac, then something related, like from the same... _species?_
The fact that Mordeth, or the Evil that has subsumed him, can and has seeped into and corrupted even the pebbles of Shadar Logoth makes it seem to me that this Evil is almost like an energy, or an energy field (as thought of more in Science Fiction or "IRL metaphysics" than in actual _real_ _physics),_ or even a radiation cloud that contaminates everything.
Another thought though, is that maybe what Aginor was talking about, what he was sensing, was simply the waves of *hatred,* *fear* and *anger* that must have been pouring off of the dagger, the very emotions that Shadar Logoth took up to fight the Shadow, yet which were also emotions very familiar to those of the Shadow itself, making them in a way what Aginor described. It really could have been just that simple. Not much metaphysical meat on this theory though. Matt would be bored by it I wager.😎
Fain/Mordeth don't "influence others" "regardless of their own actions" (as Tal was saying) like a _ta'veren._ However, we _do_ see that their very presence can have a seriously corrupting influence on people, an "influence on others" if you will, from Niall to Elaida, to the Whitecloaks in the Two Rivers. I hesitate to equate this to what a _ta'veren_ does, but it really *is* an influencing of people just by being around them, from what we can see.
I'll agree with Linda on this one, the Dagger and Shaisam just melted, they did not then infect -Shallow- -Goal- (😎) Shayol Ghul with their Evil. That was the end of them, thanks, of course, to the coolest character in all of fiction, whether book, film or television (or audio).
I wonder? If the prophecies of the dragon and the Pattern, are for the Aeil People alone? Kinda like the Bible is only ment for Hebrews? They're the constant in every age/ pattern.
Starts at 1:44 btw
Gavin Fernandes - Trimmed it. Thanks for the reminder!
Opposite ta'veran is most people right? People are trapped in their life pattern. Ta'veran are the correction. The people with charisma like Hitler or Jesus. People who change trajectories.
When you have 3 guests and spend 90% of the time doing all the talking even going so far as to talk over them and then change the subject half way through a guests line of thought. I'd go watch Daniel Green but he's even more annoying. Heres a tip for you. LETS THE GUESTS SPEAK AND STOP PUTTING YOUR OWN NARRITIVE ON SOMETHING THATS ALREADY BEEN EXPLAINED. DAMN.