Wheel of Time's Aelfinn & Eelfinn: Sindhol & The Tower of Ghenjei - A Deep Dive
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- čas přidán 14. 02. 2023
- What do we know about the Aelfinn & Eelfinn, Sindhol, and The Tower of Ghenjei? What more can we find in Robert Jordan's Notes and Interviews? What does Origins of The Wheel of Time say? Join us for a deep dive into this Parallel World!
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Starts at 2:25! What didn't you know? What did we miss? And now what are you theories??
Here's an idea: The Finn carved their way into the world, via the Tower. Fledgling Aes Sedai, discovering the existence of other worlds, visited, asked questions, exchanged information and technology, and eventually used the knowledge to build the Portal Stones, bring over the Ogier, maybe even learn about _Tel'aran'rhiod._ Eventually, friendly relations broke down, and the Aes Sedai created the _ter'angreal_ portals that bound the Finn within narrow constraints.
Awesome, I love Tower of Ghenjei deep dives, thanks for doing this one guys! It will be interesting to see how the show interprets this, and I hope it will have a multi episode arc and it isn't just glazed over like Mordeth and Shadar Logoth in general.
If I had to choose...while difficult, I would take the Aelfinn and Eelfinn over any more mention of Mordeth and Shadar Logoth. But, as you said, here's to hoping we continue to get both and not just a passing reference.
Man, I wish I could make these live shows to shop my theories. Even so, I still enjoy watching these in retrospect! Thanks for the hard work and gathering all the facts.
I have an absurd fan theory that the 3 rules (no fire, iron, music) were created in reaction to Aginor kidnapping random finn for experimentation. I picture Aginor (iron...tools for experimentation) taking Asmodean (music) and another forksaken (fire) with him through the tower to capture finn.
I also believe luck has a bigger role in the physics of Sindhol, which is why mentioning the Dark One could bring bad luck, quite literally, to their realm. Like, I picture the sun temporarily being blotted out by storm clouds and winds picking up, etc. with the mention of the DO.
@56:00, that's because it was largely written by RJ. Brandon mentioned several scenes that were largely completed by RJ before he passed. The Tower of Ghenjei raid was one of them. Egwene's White Tower reunification was another. In fact, those scenes were split between The Gathering Storm and Towers of Midnight specifically so that we would have significant chunks of RJ in each book. A few other mostly RJ scenes were the big Verin reveal, the falling of the Kandori watchtowers near the blight (in the ToM prologue), and the very last chapter (though NOT the Rand vs DO dueling fates battle)
Thanks! This made me go look up the citation. Now I wish I would have looked it up while we chatted.
Joshua Cahill (31 August 2011)
Was bringing Moraine back your idea or Jordan's?
Brandon Sanderson (31 August 2011)
Jordan's.
JOSHUA CAHILL
Oh okay, thanks. It's something that's been on my mind for a while.
BRANDON SANDERSON
He wrote most of the Tower of Ghenjei scenes in that book before he passed away.
www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=36#161
My favorite part of the WOT was the Aelfinn & Eelfinn because I saw them as as such a cool reinterpretation of the of the Seelie and Unseelie courts of Scottish Fae folklore and if they are not in the show I'm going to riot
I think snakes and foxes are too important to Matt, Thom, Jain, and Moiraine so it must be kept. Although it might only be one of them. Jain has been mentioned. And so cool to show! Must have Egwene and Perrin in the Dream world, but mirror worlds? Nah. Selene can appear in Randland.
Agreed. Taking them out makes it more generic fantasy, which would take out some of the wonder, intrigue, and horror element of the world/show.
It for sure seems that way to us readers. But i have a si king feeling it would not fly in the story board room when making the show. The show seems to be omitting saidin and saidar so something like interdimensional anthropomorphic foxes and snakes would be omitted as well. That said, i do agree that its so integral to their story. And even the way moraine "dies" and comes back needs that world and those damn snakes and foxes. Id go so far to say even olivers story really does revolve around it. But time will tell. Heres to hoping the show does it right!
Very excited for the upcoming Black Ajah deep dive.
Me too! I can't believe we haven't done one until now.
They get all the objects of power from all the visitors. The ones who don't make it.
ohhh I just got the WOT Companion, I gotta say its great. I have NOT read the books, but My Son has. I bought them for him years ago. He is really excited about "MOM" watching the TV Series and finally reading these books. I have to admit they are great. ie MOM
The White Tower is an inn located in the Kandori village of Ravinda, on the main road from Canluum to Chachin. It was constructed in 979 NE by Avene Sahera, a recipient of the bounty awarded by the Amyrlin Seat Tamra Ospenya to all women who gave birth during the Battle of the Shining Walls.
I'm excited about this episode. I'm sorry I missed it live.
It seemed to me as you all were discussing parallel dimensions and mirror dimensions that the Finns are like 5th dimensional creatures. They're simply outside of the wheel and the pattern (space & time).
I feel this gives some easier answers to who they are and why they do things than they have magic or they are creatures with abilities. They just.. are. Which brings me to my tinfoil hat theory of all things pattern/one power related in the Wheel of Time. It's all just technology that's so advanced, it's indistinguishable from magic. Channeling is just manipulation of space and time. At the height of the 2nd age, they were able to manipulate this to such a degree, they were able to go to different dimensions and alternate universes with portal stones. They were able to fold space with the ways. They were even able to bore through the pattern to something outside of space and time. Of course they would eventually find these beings, or the beings found them... 1st contact style.
What's the tower of Ghenjei? It's a pin the Finns put into this specific space/time to come back to and a bridge to their reality. I believe it came into being in the 2nd age once man had progressed to the point of dimensional 1st contact. Thought experiment for those who thought it was always around, throughout all 7 ages... We're technically living in the 1st age, where is it NOW?
Are the Finns truly ancient? Yes and no... since they're timeless beings who can see multiple realities and multiple possibilities, time doesn't affect them... they're completely outside of it.
How do they know things and can grant wishes? A 5D person has fundamental ability to manipulate all things 3D. They can easily know the future as that information just is for them. Matt (host) had made the comment about the Finns giving Matt Cauthon the Ashandari because they always knew he had it.
Why do they not want to speak of the Dark One in their dimension? While it's very plausible that their 1st contacts would have been with the Aes Sedai of that time and we know some of those Aes Sedai were dark, there could have been negative interactions from that. But also, by being outside of space and time, this put the Finns as neighbors, of a sort, to the Dark One.
Why do they do the things they do to visitors? All I can really guess at is... "Their motives are beyond our comprehension".
Are they evil? Not really... they have as much care for us as we do for the ant that crosses our blanket at a picnic, or the cows that we eat. Individual ants and cows might be cute and deemed worthy of our attention... but as a species (or even our reality) not so much.
What is it with the memories and the aura sucking? All I can guess is... that their existence is so different from ours, that it's a very unique experience for them to experience our existence at all. Much as we might have a favorite color, or a taste, or more like what favorite song we hear when our caged pet bird sings... the Finns like to experience our reality through us as it's so unique from theirs. Maybe it's akin to reading a good book and then manipulating the world of that book to see how the writing changes and they get to experience something new.
Why no One Power in their world? Same reason as was given, different laws operate in a different (5th) dimension.
Great video! I thought I'd give the Finn questions some thought if I was to think about it more scientifically, and less magically. I never really thought about them too much until I watched your show. I really appreciate all the work you do.
TLDR: Legit aliens
Love this answer and all your theories!! This makes the most sense to me, and I love that it’s not just “because magic” haha. Though trying to comprehend a 5D dimension puts my brain in a pretzel. 😅
You make so much sense. Do you discuss this on CZcams or Twitter. Anywhere else?
My personal head cannon, with no citation whatsoever to back it up, is that the Eelfinn can consume and share memories that strongly resonate with the wishes they grant. This is why Mat had memories of men dying that were from men who passed through the portal.
this is great! keep ‘em coming!
The fin are the keepers of past code. Min reviews the new code before it is pushed. They love channelers because they are major pieces of code that have customer impact. Getting their hands on that code is like a drug because it is new knowledge, which would be important to one who's sole purpose is to archive code. If all you eat are leftovers, a fresh steak is like a drug.
This concept of impactful code is born out when Min says that she almost always sees images around aisedi and warders. They are major updates.
Thank you (forgot your name) for explaining Sindhol to me. I believe I can't find your answer anymore because I deleted my question after watching TDW! Thanks again!
If I could have gotten one more book from RJ, it would have been a prequel to back when the original deals were struck...
I wonder if the presence of the Tower of Ghenjei is what 'selects' a given possibility as 'the real world'? Like if you see the Tower of Ghenjei disappear, it's a signal you've been culled into a mirror world. I also strongly suspect that the Tower of Ghenjei extends many kilometers below the land surface, into the mantle of the planet. It is a thoroughly alien object, and it stands out because of its singular nature and its apparent timelessness. The earth might heave and roll around it, but it would not shift the slightest bit. Balefire would cause problems, but keying off the beginning of the comment, it might just relegate the balefire-er to a mirror world. Sure, they made the Tower of Ghenjei disappear, but all they really did was shunt themself into a mirror world.
I think of the Finn as the developer chat interface of the simulation that is the Wheel of Time. 😁
This has always been one of my favorite aspects of RJs world building so thank you for doing this deep dive and I really hope they put it in the show.
My theory about the origin of the Tower of Ghenjei is that it is the spindle that the Wheel spins around. I have not thought this through but it was a fun mental image so I figured I’d share.
Thanks for another great show Innkeeper.
Loved the last theory
Can they read the pattern and see the future, or having watched it from the beginning, are they just really good at knowing the probability of what is most likely to happen. Could it be that having seen it turn essentially an infinite number of times, they know certain milestones that always happen.
If you are curious what we know of what Brandon wrote as compared to what RJ wrote, this is a comprehensive list of statements about Who Wrote What.
www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt=%27who%20wrote%20what?%27
With the question about bringing in instruments of music, I’ve always wondered if there’s a connection to the Jenn Aiel…
Which of the books is matt rescuing moraine because I am on book 9 in the audiobooks?
However it happened, the ancient Aes Sedai accidentally intruded upon Sindhol and over unknown time and struggle, ended up recognizing that there was much worth in making a treaty with the Finns in order to benefit both sides: to access information. Besides their obvious predatory nature and killing of people for unfathomable gain, the inhaling of vapor of strong emotion and even blood was a seductive drug to them. Remember their exclamations when they start getting high off Mat's fear and pain : "the savor!" or intense taste of his emotion/pain.. "so long!" ..they had waited for him to come back and provide this drug as they knew he would.. "how it twirls around him! Scents of blood in the air...[]..I can taste fate itself!". At whatever point the Finns figured out that live humans give off this sublime, transcendent drug when provoked and manipulated, there is no question that they would
A ton of Matt's character hooks depend on the Finn. I hope Rafe really fights for this one. If too many of these "little" things that give us peeks into the vastness of this story then it'll just end up being generic fantasy instead of the masterpiece it is. I'm afraid we've lost portal stones already...which is a huge issue imho since flicker flicker is an overwhelming favorite of most readers.
i hate that we will not get this arc
With Regards to what was shown about Moraine it explains the decisions she makes after she leaves the Fins
I think that if the tower could be destroyed normally it would have been during the breaking but balefire does not destroy it erases so it may erase the tower but not the connection to the world so the Finn can respawn the the tower if you will
Didn't Moraine use one of her wishes to get the Angreal (she asked for the most powerful Sa'angreal they had and they didn't have one so they gave her the strongest Angreal they had) she must have set the terms of the bargain to be for no physical harm or death to come to her. Not sure what else she got.
Yeah. I forgot that Moiraine actually walked away with something.
“With this,” Moiraine said. “I will be strong enough to at least take the pain away. They placed it on me to let me draw more of the Power, to make their feeding more succulent. I asked for it, actually, as one of my three demands. I did not realize they would end up using it against me.”
“They gave you your three demands?” Mat asked, frowning.
“I passed through the ter’angreal,” she said. “The ancient treaty held for both of us, though with the doorway destroyed, there was no simple return. I knew from…previous events that I would not escape unless you came for me, no matter what my demands were or how carefully I worded them. So I used them for the best.”
“What did you ask for?” Mat asked. “Beyond the angreal?”
She smiled. “I shall keep that to myself, for now. You do have my thanks, young Matrim. For my life.”
@@TheDustyWheel of course I make my comment just moments before the caller brings it up
@@LandonTheDM It was the perfect way to end the episode, correcting impression/memory that she hadn't. I love it when that happens, because I hate when I forget details like that.
@@TheDustyWheel I am the same way I hate when I forget important, interesting details or large things. Love when I find out I hadn't picked up on something because now I know!
Feels like balefire could destroy the tower as an access point because it's a physical thing in Andor. But not the world.
Matt, I'm wondering, do you have a schedule for the WOT parody contest yet?
What are the numbers of chaos?
The tower ghenjei is the axel the wheel spins around.
I know that the WOT universe is not meant to be exactly like ours, however, it does seem that RJ barrows heavily from existing myths and legends from our world. That said, there is an idea amongst some of the alternative ancient origins enthusiasts regarding the great pyramids and that they are perhaps portals to a parallel universe. One of the ideas is that either through meditation, or the use of psychedelics, the ancient Egyptians were in communication with beings from elsewhere. I wonder if RJ was aware of these ideas. There is also an idea out there that there are non-physical entities that feed off of our emotions (especially unpleasant ones) and make suggestions to us (that we experience as our own thoughts) suggesting that we do something that ends up creating negative emotions (i.e. get you to make a stupid comment in a meeting, or something like that). I'm not saying I subscribe to any of these ideas (so please don't think I'm a nut-job); however, these ideas are out there....
Where did this idea of Perrin having to go and kill an old friend came from? I finished AMOL 3 days ago and I'm in the middle of the hangover... damn almost as hard as when i quit smoking
Am I the only one who thought they’d be more important, and we’d get more on the multiverse ?
Wow! I knew they were dangerous but.... Moiraine kept trying to warn the kids and go over their questions first and now I understand why. You could end up dying on Mars so you could be King of the World for less than a second. Whoa.
Did Anas just get Matt's old set or something? What's up with that?
Anas built it out to look similar on purpose because he is now my fellow Innkeeper/Host. For now he does one show a month, and will be a consistent part of TDW moving forward.
My theory about Mat's very elaborate Old Blood memories is that when he loses his own, the Pattern / Mat's soul tries to compensate for it by making the Old Blood memories more pronounced.
Haven't finished the video yet, so I'm hoping that they'll bring up confirmation / disprove this theory.
But Perrin finds the tower in tar
Good content, but could have been an hour of my life, not two.
Absolutley cannot wait to see how they ruin snakes and foxes. Assuming anyone involved with the production has read enough to know.
No, I don't think they've read far enough. It's much more fun to adapt a work when you don't know and understand the original. You can be more open to creativity, and tell your own story, and then call the fans that wanted to see an adaptation all sorts of names. And who doesn't like calling people names?
The show is f'd. They are flailing about like a Mydrahl that has been stabbed.
The aes sedai made the red door ter'angreal so I always assumed they made the tower. It's made of iron as a barrier to guard against invasion since the treaties don't apply there (I think).