Echo Chamber Ep. 2 (Part 1) - How was Anabaseios (Savage)?
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- čas přidán 27. 08. 2024
- NEST finally finished Anabaseios (Savage). What kudos and critiques do Drak, Jesse, & Rhaya have for the final tier of the Endwalker expansion?
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Jesse be like "don't look at chat, viewer interaction is temporary, THE Zollton from NEST is eternal".
The common struggles in raid of not knowing how to dissect a mechanic, not seeing all the pieces interacting and figuring out why a strategy works/fails all point to one culprit: affordance.
Affordance is an element of design based around intuitive use.
Our FFXIV battle team centralizes affordance in developing content across varying difficulties. From casual dungeons, extreme trials, savage raid tiers, to merciless ultimates.
We as players are taught early on in our adventures to identify a particular icon pattern like stack markers and how to react accordingly. At least, MOST of the time (looking at you, PF...)
As Rhaya points in the next episode: "14 fights are designed for you not to have any assistance [add-ons]". Thus, all the more reliance on intuitive elements in creating and solving new battle mechanics.
Now, how does this tie back to Anabaesios?
Based on NEST's ventures, the team comments how fights [affordance] were fairly tuned save for P10s opening web traps and P12s notorious Kaloric Theory.
P10s web AoE markers don't exactly provide a visual hint relating to the 2 new rules for this new mechanic: 1) The marker is a multi-person stack 2) Those sharing the stack must be arranged as to not form a circuit, where the threads become unbreakable.
In the normal difficulty version of this fight, the markers initially instruct us to stay away from other players but you can break strands by moving through them.
Those are the only conceptual clues provided and only through frustrating trial & error can a solution eventually be found. An approach more appropriate for Ultimate difficulty fights than for savage's tier/step-based structure.
Now comes to P12s Kaloric Theory, the two specific moments mentioned lacking premonition, making the entire second phase neigh insufferable
For point #1, a more conspicuous form of a stack marker is needed rather than a basic beacon icon for appropriate telegraphing, "Hey! This person needs a friend! NOW!" (Wishing there was something like that, IRL... *ahem*)
Fortunately, a solution for issue #2 was addressed as part of a fun mechanic back in Bozdja's 'Delubrium Reginae' for Queen's Edict mechanic; Having the tiles light up as you move across them and a counter above your head indicating your movement quota rather than purely eyeballing an arbitrary distance in 'yalms'.
As a puzzle enthusiast, and for potential game designers, watching a blind prog group like NEST serves as a solid case study.
Watching how a group of individuals with a solid comprehension of FF14's battle system is able to piece together the trail of affordance bread crumbs left by the developers. Identifying where gaps are missing and reflecting their ultimate impact experiencing the content.
Though times have been tough throughout the last few expansions Drak, your thoughts, observations, and opinions are coming across as genuine. Few content creators critique how mechanics encountered were designed and scaled for savage raid difficulty. Keep your chin up during these times and forge ahead. Looking ever forward to your team's next raiding misadventures in the next upcoming expansion.
From what it sounds like, Chlororic seems like it could have benefited from the system used in Delibrium Regine with the little dots showing how many squares you could travel, but they decided to do something different.
Yo... that's great!! The floor is tiled out already!!
Don't think anyone can blame Woops.
Just different folk doing different things and getting frustration from both ends.
Probably better this way. World first and catch-up raiders never mix well from my experience.
I love the theming of P12 in that all the casts she uses are disproven theories.
"I don't understand it, I just do it" is basically my experience for the whole raid series. I had the hardest time teaching a static how to do Dog 2 in P8Sp1 because I didn't parse the mechanic well at all, I just did it. I can't tell you how Pangenesis or Caloric works in P12Sp2, I just did it. No idea what the process is for P12Sp1's limit cut, but I did it. Cachexia 1, Blooddrake and Belone, Light and Dark, not a goddamn clue of the hows and whys, just did it.
Whether this is a comment on my ability to read mechanics, or SE's ability to translate them idk
Dunno, with a competent guide maker and some experience with the mechanic, I did get and that massively helped with my execution, since I was no longer "just doing as told".
Your discussion about pain points in a raid group and your resolution of the conflict really resonated with me. I joined a static for the first time this tier after doing some on and off pf'ing for the previous two tiers and while we started off strong, we have gotten into some disagreements while going through p12. I truly aspire to have a group as mature and understanding as yours one day.
I clearly missed something, whos leaving the static? I think only woops and spofie have other groups now so it's one of those two??
Edit: maybe an idea for furure raid tiers is to have people on the same level for the initial clear and then have guest members for reclears, it would probably help avoid the frustration of having people who have already cleared accidentally spoiling stuff
I'd say woops, just mainly due to his reactions from P1S to P12S so far (him wanting to rip hair out due to nest being blind and not knowing the mechanics) and essentially giving pseudo hints, such as saying something that most of the party didnt see, like how 2 people tethered in P8Sp2 for HC1...
As for why i dont think its spofie? Shes been with them since E1S and is normally very chill/spoiler free about stuff, and i dont think i've ever seen her get legit angry or spoil things out of frustration like woops had done once or twice, such as iirc in P7S (i think) woops spoiled a mechanic that the rest laughed about saying how it would have been great content
@@arceus227100It's definitely Woops. If you watched the P12S streams. Drak was massively tilted at him during caloric prog. Hence why they replaced him right afterwards for the rest of the prog.
@@whisperingshadowXI OH SHIT REALLY? I dont watch streams much or in general, i may stop by here and there, but it DEFINITELY seemed like he was pushing his luck throughout this whole expansion, watching back to P1S-3S rn and he was definitely giving away hits during prog back then... damn, it does kinda suck, bc i liked woops and think he was a great addition to the group, but it will be sad to see him go
My only major complain with P10S was the INSANE body checks. It was constant, if you did not have EVERYONE alive, the run was dead, you could not complete several mechanics at all. And Bonds 3 was such a pain for the community that the 'Always Spread' strat became a normal thing, just sac the 2 role stackers because 2 players dying was better than 6 from the stacks not being full. The concept of P10S was great, but it's demand for perfection when it was a very very janky fight was infuriating. The cannons felt like they had a mind of their own. The number of times that a weird GCD animation would make the turrets snap to the wrong player was immeasurable. And Tank GCD greed on the 2-2-2-1 strat caused more wipes than you can imagine.
I am fine with a fight that wants perfection, but if that's the case, I want PERFECTION out of the mechanics and it just wasn't. Things would snap weirdly, angle weirdly, and the amount of body checks made what should have been a fun fight into an absolute mind numbing test of madness --- only to go into P11S and fall asleep
So who got banned from nest?
I'm gonna guess whoops is going unless he drops his world prog group
Definitely Woops, he loves Day 1 prog way too much to ever drop it while NEST always plays blind catch up. They just don't mesh long-term.
Jesse do truly be the voice of chat
Rhaya forgets Golbez*
Ah even when it's current content, no one remembers FF4 lmao.
Honestly, if it is so frustrating having to deal with static members that have already cleared the fight (or the tier) possibly spoiling a mechanic (out of frustration or otherwise) you should just make it mandatory that no one can be in another static (or prog ahead). The danger will always be there, and it will keep happening. It will cut down your ability to recruit people when members leave, but it completely eliminates the issue
I mean that’s what happens when you have a world prog raider in your group lol
am i just blind and cant find it..? Where is p12s phase 2? :o
Video hasn’t come out yet but they did do the fight
It takes a good bit longer to edit raid videos than these podcast-style discussions, give it time.
@@MyVanir okai. Makes little sense to me to upload video about the raid tier when you havent shown finishing yet but oh well. It is what it is.
@@srco6865 Don't do that on your youtube channel then.