Tier List: Khazad-Dum
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- čas přidán 18. 01. 2022
- Sean and Liam decide to tackle Khazard-Dum.
will they say something stupid?
most likely.
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I wish there was an option to take Gimli without Balin. Like a LL representing his adventures before LOTR. Make it a ranger centric list or some sort of buff to Iron Guard. That would be fun.
God I would absolutely love that, get Gloin involved too, have a father/son LL!
-Liam
My idea for the glittering caves is to run gimli as balin for the 'old gimli/dain' reference, gimli as his son gimli 2nd and do a trading caravan with iron guard, rangers and dwarf warriors with cloaks and backpacks. Possibly a ballista on a cart...
That's a fun idea for sure mate! Might have to get Sean on that!
-Liam
Thanks for the vid, enjoy you guys chat in such relaxed athmosphere. Totally agree on the ballista, it rarely struggles to get its points in, either ist killing a bunch of models or its just forcing your enemy to come and negates the dwarves slow weakness (:
Glad you enjoyed it mate, thanks!
-Liam
Floi is my favourite hero to play alongside dwalin in thorins co, but i think he does have a major flaw in which he doesn't give out the "moria" keyword to other models, only Balin does, so his ability to recharge Will only works if you have Balin in the army.
Yeah it's a bit shit aye 😅
-Liam
I used to play dorf bois, sold them cos theyre a bit on the boring side.
I think Balin is B. He brings cool guys to the table (floi and Gimli), but having 2 W 1F and 2A makes him a huge liability. That, and the ENORMOUS opportunity cost of losing Durin, and more importantly, Hearthguard.
Mardin is worse than a captain in my opinion. Less able to play the hold up game with his lower defense, can't shield. And in all my games I think +1 to wound monsters came up once. Hard to beat a monster with f5 no strike. No march either. Even with sworn protector, I took a captain or king. His only benefit is 3 might and sworn protector (not a biggie in a Durin army with +1 C), downsides of no march, no shield, no throwing weapon. If he came with a vault warden shield bearer in his profile (for 10 extra points say) and a rule that let him strike twice from behind his shield, I'd be all over him.
Shieldbearer is C IMO. Just strictly, slightly worse than a captain all round.
I'd put normal Khazad guard A, and Hearthguard top of S.
Always commenting for the algorithm. I might even buy these guys again. I want metal minis tho, I hate finecast. And I want to use SO MANY vault wardens.
Solid points for sure mate!
I still reckon Mardin is solid enough over a captain for that extra might in an army that has almost no 3 might models, might is a huge premium in this list.
Khazad guard are the meat and potatoes of regular Khazad-Dum mate they absolutely belong S tier, they're both fantastic but heathguard are expensive with an equally expensive model to even get them. Khazad's work in any list and you can throw a little more into an army.
-Liam
@@NoobsandMen If you asked me for the best 3 special rules a warrior (not character) can have in lotr, burly, venom and fly take the cake. I pay those points all day and on weekends.
I'm happy with both S tier though.
Oh, and I almost missed it, I liked Dwarf bows as much as I liked rangers. They're still D6, and the s3 is very good when it's good, Just like the shorter range is bad when it's bad. I think they're about the same.
@@judgejudyandexecutioner.5223 Honestly Burly is a fantastic special rule on a character too haha
Honesty fair enough on the bows, but I think the thing that bumps Rangers for me is the ability to spend the extra point to get throwing axes hitting on +3s. its just so nice. Also helps with players not keeping within 6 of you but out of 5, the threat of throwing axes. But yeah, an eternal debate that str3 18" 4+ or the str2 24" 3+....
-Liam
This video is exactly what I needed as I have just begun to build a Dwarf army!
Nice mate! Good luck to you!
Ok, definetly want to build my khazad dum army
You absolutely should mate! They're a blast to play and really solid to boot.
-Liam
I recently found ur tierlist videos and i really enjoy watching them
Haha that Video came at the right time^^ looking at this Army since a long time and it was very interesting hear your opinion.
Also it seems like the first tier list that Not a single really Bad Hero/warrior?
Haha glad we could help mate!
From memory Rivendell might have also not had anyone too terrible as well? But yeah Khazad-Dum is a solid enough list for sure!
Shield warriors are necessary for dwarves because without spears you often just need something to hold up enemies and with F4 3 attacks in banner range as well as D7 that just gives you the survivability that the army needs when it's expensive troops are over somewhere else doing the chopping. Axes are also the best general purpose hand weapons.
Absolutely mate, they're also relatively cheap for dwarves as well meaning you can fill out your army much more than you could with only khazads. Shielding is a fantastic special rule to hold up models with or to stop killing until you're in a better position for points, really a great idea to have a good amount of them in your army
-Liam
years late to the party but just had to say great video (matched almost all of my opinions so has to be good) only niggle was not having wardens in S. they are the army's only support option and work well even when split (throw a shield out to roadblock even with -1 its gonna hold, and stick the foe spear behind hearth/iron guard for example) keep the team together and its basically double ranked iron hills with D9 for an extra point per model. vs S4 that makes them twice as hard to kill as iron hills. very worth it.
Nice video.
you said 'the only downside of the king's champion is that he can take only 10 warriors in his warband'.
Is that correct? If you read the book, it states: 'The heralds counts as independant heroes'?
So that means you can take the king's champion (with heralds) & 12 infantry or am I mistaken?
The heralds must be included into the king's champion's warband as independent heroes so they take up 2 of the 12 slots in his warband
-Sean
Question if say ye have 2 dwarfs with throwing weapons charge a orc. So first dwarf charges throws fails to kill and is now in combat. Can the second dwarf throw his weapon at the same orc the other dwarf charged?
No.
As good models can not ever run the risk of killing another good model.
If you were playing an evil army like Corsairs then yes you could do that.
-Sean
@@NoobsandMen it would treated as shooting in to combat though, right.
Correct and only evil models can't shoot into combat.
Throwing weapons are still shooting weapons even though you can use them in the movement phase.
-Sean
Why did i think vault wardens dont back away??? I feel like that was a thing or should be a thing...
It absolutely should be, same with providing better in the ways for their friend behind em. Tho there are times you can completely hide him behind I guess
-Liam
@@NoobsandMen also since you can't see the dwarf holding the shield front on can the enemy target them with a bow??? I just painted up this army and have no idea how to play them haha.
How necessary do you think march is for Khazad-dum?
Its definitely a great addition to such a slow army, but if you play your army right, there are times you won't need it, saving that might for moves and such instead. Might is such a rare thing in a Khazad-Dum list you've really got to only use it when necessary.
-Liam
The dwarf balista sits in S tier, for the fact that a dwarf is slow, against shooting armies you force your opponent to come to you, even elven a dale shooting have no weak targets to shoot at, one or two of these will dominate the shooting war and force combats to happen where you want them to, and then benefit from the army bonus in melee
A good argument for sure, though even with a ballista decent concentrated fire will take down a ballista pretty easily, Dale or Elves just have to space out and make sure the Ballista can only take out a model a turn, assuming it even hits at all, and it'll be donezo.
-Liam
You also get 6 Bows for the same points
a very cool and beautiful army. However, most models in this army suffer from the *almost good* syndrome. Or at least suffer in comparison to models in more recent releases. Not really any reason to not play iron hills over khazad dum (except rule of cool, of course). Just a couple of point decreases would do well for this army. Balin, Gimli, Durin all could use 10-15pts off (also Mardin why do you exist?). Shield bearer could use a rewrite, make him more applicable. Absence of spears, magic, cav and crossbows would probably still hold them back sufficiently. Durin is nice but too one dimensional and expensive. His horn does not synergise with his fearless warband, the 6+ aftersave is nothing to value and he is such an amazing immobilise target. It is like giving your opponent value. Khazaddum cannot afford that.
You're absolutely right mate, they're just not up to scuff when you look at any other comparable faction. Theyre probably top of the list of major factions that need the biggest rework to make them actually viable.
-Liam
If you're taking requests and want an easy day, do the Rangers. It'll take a while but you'll finish it eventually I'm sure
Rangers will likely be apart of a multi faction video, doing something like Arnor, rangers and Dunharrow in the same video!
-Liam
@@NoobsandMen now that's a video I'd watch. Along with the rest
550pts: Do you go Kingdom of Khazad-Dum or Kingdom of Moria? And why?
Technically Khazad-dum but that's just because at 550, I'm likely taking Dwarf King and Kings Champ and filling with Khazads, bows, warriors, maybe I take an extra hero on top, like a Shieldbearer or a Ballista, I don't think I'm taking either Balin or Durin at 550.
-Liam
@@NoobsandMen I think you're right but it pains me to write a list without them when you have so little might generally. This way though you can get your numbers up and have 2 banners. Your troops will do all the work.
Yeah low might is just something you have to live with when playing Khazad-Dum, its the biggest weakness of their faction. you just have to hope that high defence and relatively high fight give you the power you need.
-Liam
@@NoobsandMen I'd go with Balin tbh, 550 means that you can fill out both his and the Champions warband. When taking a normal King you will most likely have like 20-30 points left over with nothing to put them in.
Fair call, I like to have Iron guard in a lot of my lists so that's likely how I'm filling that gap there
-Liam
What's the reverse of a Nerf? GW need to give the dorfs an update. Free the named heroes from all these restrictions.
That'd be called a buff mate haha!
Personally I'd love it if GW came out and said all unnamed King models now have 3 might. That'd help a whole lot of armies so much.
-Liam
i dont know why but "noob nation" is kinda cringe xDD love it!
It definitely feels cringe to say mate 😂
-Liam
I did the maths and a dwarf ranger is more efficient than a dwarf archer by about 13%.
Ew maths
-Liam
@@NoobsandMen Yep, I'm a weird maths person.
Why isn't Gimli in Erebor reclaimed, so frustrating
He doesn't really fit into either age of the list unfortunately. It would make a little more sense than Kingdom of Moria but still doesn't super work. Who knows maybe Defence of the North will change it up?
-Liam
@@NoobsandMen I get that, just in between the Hobbit and LOTR it's easy to imagine him as a general figure within Erebor. Would be cool to write some custom scenarios with him leading his fellow dwarves
@@hunsler1006 Yeah I would love that myself, especially a list with him and Gloin!
I think you got Ori and Oin wrong. Ori is low A tier and Oin is C. The Healing from Oin is realy bad. All of you heros only have 2W so you only can heal 1W. Also in order to heal Oin is not allowed to move, so the other Hero has to come to him , so he likly does not fight this round onless the enemy attacks him and then is only a 50% chance you realy get that 1 W back. His other ruel is nice but only for 4 times. For the same points you get an capain with shild.
Ori on the other hand is with 55 points the cheapest Hero you can get. His 1 Might is not that bad as you can get might back with his ruel. Also with his 2 attacks he kills more enemys than Oin even with only S 3. His 3 Will are nice but does not realy matter.
Ps. Sorry for a bit bad english, i am from Germany😉
Also Vault Warden teams are S tier. One thing you can do that helps a lot is just put some drawf warriors in front of them to protect them from shooting. (Or between so that the speers are always in 3. line and hard to hit)
And Mardin is B tier. 3 might is nice but his monster ruels does not work as he needs an Hero with strike to win fights against 90% of the monsters. Also he is only D7, a normal capain does better. He is like the 3. Hero in any list.
Fair points mate! Hindsight Ori could be higher, though Oins little reroll with will is also nice given it stacks with banner, if you're really chasing a 6 every reroll helps. Plus all your heroes might only be 2 wounds but with their defence it's quite often they only take the one wound, being able to heal Balin or Gimli or whoever you have him follow around is very nice still.
I still rate Mardin even if it's just for a move battery to save Durins might for strikes and combats, he basically becomes Durins spear support at that point which isn't terrible.