Is The EV Market Actually Doomed? - The Carmudgeon Show w/ Jason Cammisa & Derek Tam-Scott - Ep 147
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- čas přidán 9. 09. 2024
- It's largely being reported in the media that Electric Vehicles are in trouble - sales are down, inventory is up, and customers just aren't interested. Is any of this true?
...or is this just a blip in the now-unavoidable transition away from combustion vehicles?
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Hyundai is making great EVs. BMW is making really good EVs. Tesla (despite the controversy) is still selling the dickens out of its cars - and the new "Highland" Model 3 is nearly perfect.
But the rest of the industry? Perhaps no one is interested in their cars because the cars are crap. We don't know.
But the Carmudgeons certainly have opinions on it.
Im old enough to know, people who write about cars professionally, are the wost at predicting the future of the car..
Yeah, there's only one group who's even worse: The general public.
I really don't think you're making the right judgments about attitudes towards cars, and the general degree of automotive electrification in this country called Europe, based on encounters in downtown Berlin. I don't say I disagree with you're point necessarily, but there is more to Europe than Berlin, Stuttgart and Zurich. Just as there probably is a country called USA outside bay area.
Yeah I do think he has his blinders on right now. The brilliant engineering of the cybertruck means you void the warranty going through a car wash and risk bricking the truck. Not to mention IT CANT BE SOLD IN EUROPE because it won’t pass pedestrian safety tests.
This is a fantastic point. Sometimes Jason and Derek get lost in the weeds thinking about things from a California perspective (they live there, so it's not like that's weird), but occasionally they realize it and pull back for the bigger picture. It seems like this is one of those instances where they needed to do a "Cali vs the world" check again.
If the visited a small village in Thüringen instead they'd probably make a point about hiw the fascist population of Germany will leave the EU, if the ICE sales ban isn't lifted or something equally extreme.
One has to love when people generalize based on ONE sample point. Even more so when they try to homogenise a region as diverse as the 26 Nations of the European Union.
But it really shows that they are, in fact, US citizens.
@@aprtur Not that they just live in California, but San Francisco. Which is not at all similar to any city, for example, say rural kansas or even like bakersfield or fresno, they forget how conveniently built that city is.
@@ThmsPtrsn also a good point. To clarify, I don't think it's anything negligent - they just lose sight of what the rest of the country (and world) is like when they have the blinders of San Fran on.
Better public transit would be the best solution for urban environments
But we need EVs for NON personal car use. You can't replace Electric City Buses with Public Transit. They ARE Public Transite.
@@Neojhuntrolley busses and trams buddy.
@@Neojhunthe one with the overhead wires and shit.
@@Neojhuntake the large batteries out of the busses. Especially in countries where it snows
lol you need better public order first.
I don't in good faith believe the claim regarding the culture around internal combustion. As a European, living in Europe I see no evidence to back it up. Maybe in countries such as Sweden that is the case, but I by and large, apart from governments I don't see anyone else wholly embracing EVs in the manner that you describe
Neither does the law back it up. There isn’t a move to EV anymore in the EU as the ban on ICE has been scrapped here.
@@indiebekonnnot scraped per se...prolonged until 2035; bad news for the french whom, as always, embrace fully with "the enemy"
@@eugenux uh no, 2035 was the date and now it’s a ban on ICE that can’t burn synthetic fuels so not a ban at all.
You have allowed me to sleep a bit better tonight. As an "American" who desperately wants to live in Europe & as someone extremely against the engineering philosophy regarding EV's (which have nothing to do with environmentalism), I'm very glad to hear this.
I don't think that's the case even in Sweden, from what I've seen. US publications make headlines about stuff like city center Stockholm banning ICE, but they don't comprehend that we have this thing called "working public transportation", and you don't really want a car downtown anyway.
I do feel like every time Europe is mentioned it’s an over generalization. I’m Italian and I never EVER heard about such extreme things against cars, most of the time cool cars are applauded, especially old cars.
And I personally never heard of other countries being so extreme. I think it might just be a select handful of very left winged cities like Berlin where such things happen.
ps: My family has a 1971 Fiat 500 and whilst driving it around I see nothing but smiles, drivers will literally yield to me if I'm waiting at a stop sign. Never encountered any hate from anyone.
second to that; Berlin left wingers would rather ride on electric scooters and trams than ever see a car in their life; most of them are too high to drive anyway.
This is common brain rot in the north of Europe
This! Never encountered anything like that in Finland, Sweden, Norway, Estonia, Germany, Austria, Italy, France... Let alone the eastern parts of Europe & EU where 1.9tdi is still the king.
Than you never heard of your neighbor, Austria.
@@MrHanswurst47 a country where I never have seen more sports cars, old/retro cars and convertibles/cabriolets driving and parading during sunny weekends.
edit. ppl are using bicycles and public transport during weekdays and go out for drives during the weekends, exactly as it should be. Their government though would ban cars tomorrow, if they could. High taxes, speed cameras everywhere, very low speed limits everywhere. It is an anti-car state.
You surprised me when you mentioned that Europe is so ahead in the EV journey. I was in Portugal and Spain and I did not see a single EV in my trip. Almost all cars are still manual transmission. I don't see them moving as quickly as you think!
That is because Europe is not a single unified entity, the culture and ecomonic level of Spain, Italy or Portugal has nothin to do with Germany or UK, in the first ones the average salary is 25k and most people lives in old flats whith have no garage so you cant afford an EV and you cant charge it, in the second ones the average salary is nearly double and there are a lot more single houses with their own garage where you can install a charger.
So the problem is people in goverments are disconnected from reality and are not having this kind of differences in mind
Completely agree, we are all far from having an infrastructure that supports EV including cities in the US that cannot charge at home which is a key to have an EV car. My point that the EU is not any further in the EV journey compared to the US even UK.
Last time I looked Portugal and Spain are not the whole of Europe, oh I think one Chinese BEV Auto company has plans of building BEVs in an old abandoned Nissan factory, Spain if I'm not wrong.
@woodendoorgarageyes, but bicycles: the e-bike transition happened fast in the NL as the civil transport infrastructure is already in place. there’s a less compelling case for any car, especially expensive bevs…
EU and Japan are the most behind. They can’t seem to accept change
The last thing people need to be worrying about is the grid. It takes 25 years to replace a fleet and even if everyone was to convert to electric cars over 20 years (which they won't) the grid planners in all parts of the country are well aware of electric cars and are engineering capacity to accomidate accordingly.
A bigger 'threat' to the grid is AI than EVs.
There is scant evidence to back up any of what you said. Instead, the grid is more akin to nyc's sewer.
The real myth is that every owner will return home at the same time every evening with a completely empty pack, then plug in Immediately.
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In truth, 50% will "charge as the do things" during the day, either "fast", or "graze charging" during "the 1 hour shop", with that covering their full week of use.
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Those who charge at home will arrive at different times and plug in at different times.
In either case, by the *local Industry* will be "switched off" (many of those users WORK at that industry... They're not in 2 places at once!)
The smart ones will set a timer for..... 02:00, 5 hours, 35- 60kWh depending on pack size, if they MUST use that much AND have an 11kW charger.
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THAT ALONE solves the "Evening/ Overnight charging" issue.
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Supercharging?
The times when every charger is occupied?
Zero.
Same principles apply.
As someone who’s entire family are pretty much utility workers I can confirm. Steps are already being taken in expanding the grid to be able to fully support electrification by 2038.
I still don't have a backup camera or Bluetooth in my car. I can play tapes though.
You are blessed. I hope it stays that way for you for as long as possible.
Freedom!!
The freedom of not being able to afford a new car
USA USA USA....
/s
@@leviathan5207 My wife and I have two houses and I'm paying off her new Tesla even though she could make the payments herself. I live frugally by choice. Cybertruck might be my first new car purchase for myself.
8 TRACKS FOR LIFE...!!!
It is ripe for an EV conversion. Maybe. No Uplinks, no cams, no insurance scam.
Is it a 5speed mini truck? Those things are lighter than the Leaf you'd get the battery and components from. It'll do 120mph (in Reverse, if you choose to).
I have driven 49,000ish miles in two years on my Bolt EUV and it’s been awesome not paying for gas. I have a 40amp plug in my garage and it charges about 25 miles per hour so my car is fully charged by morning. My wife also has an ev and she loves not paying for gas. My fun car is an NB Miata, manual, LSD, hard dog roll bar and it’s a blast to drive around mountain roads. Both ev and ice can and should exist. I look forward to solid state batteries for our next EV.
While EV is fine, the gen 2 bolt is not in my book, simply for the anti-human rear lights setup.
My wife has been renting a Bolt from Hertz for a few weeks now. (We tried to get a Tesla but for some reason they don't have any 🤔) She likes the carpliance just fine, it does what it's supposed to do. Biggest issue is lack of at home charging and the 50kW max rate on CCS. If you're commuting and can't charge at home, your EV has to be NACS. Anyway, 90% of driving is boring, and EVs are a much better way to do that. There's no going back for us.
Where I live I’d be paying $3.50 for those 25 miles you charge per hour. So basically slightly cheaper than gasoline. As electrical demand goes up though, so will the kWh rate. Superchargers for Tesla’s are already costing a lot more in a lot of places than gasoline.
For 90% of people they only care about the cost of energy - gasoline or electric. Most people can’t have, or can’t afford, solar, so that doesn’t help either.
I think electric is fine for urban, but people won’t pay more for it just because it’s electric unless they are forced in to it - which then reduces their standard of living, impacting lower income households disproportionately.
31:51 f150 lightnings are NOT selling like hotcakes...
34:50 EU already retraced the ban on ICE, the only restriction is that ICE will have to be able to run on synthetic fuel which isn’t a real restriction at all. That’s why they’re going back to what they do which is building cars that customers want. The fact that the new 5 series etc. Looks the same in any engine configuration isn’t for consumers, like you suggest, but for them to offer an EV at a minimal financial loss.
Wording! The sale of ICE cars (bikes and trucks were never part of it) after 2035 is currently only permitted if they RUN on carbon neutral fuel ONLY. Being capable of using those fuels but getting the goodl E5 95 Octane would in fact be a violation.
Seeing how a litre of carbon neutral 95 Octane costs ~1,60 to make, vs the 60ish cents production cost of fossil based 95 and ignoring the lack of large scale production capability, I think ICE cars will vanish, except for the toys of the rich obviously. Getting a Yaris instead of a cheap Renault EV will be uneconomic and downright idiotic in lue of those petrol prices.
@@leviathan5207 “only” doesn’t make a difference when both are chemically identical. After all we have laws that made carrot into a fruit and snail are legally classified as fish here. 😉
@@leviathan5207 Yeah.. no way we are not getting all full electric in 10 years. Something will have to give. Small EVs definitely make sense and I like them too, but people still want SUVs. I really hope that we start to think about this rationally without all the political baggage and focus on things that actually work like trams and trains.
@@leviathan5207you’re being slightly ridiculous - even the most naive of lawmakers knew it isn’t possible to make a car that runs on synthetic petrol that won’t run on conventional fossil gasoline. It’s a deliberate loophole against compulsory EV adoption that’s been built into the planned regulations.
@@leviathan5207If gasoline becomes too expensive, I will just convert plastic to gasoline.....if it becomes cheaper to do so than buy it. Currently, it is much cheaper to buy it.
Contradicted himself in the same sentence, "51% ev sales in Marin county where the distances are short, and the climate is mild. Therefore, this will work everywhere around the world." Thats a hell of a logical jump he's making in the same statement.
So nearly 42 minutes later and I still don't have an answer ---are EVs doomed?
Did you watch with the sound off?
I8 needs a revelations. Cause it was a bad idea but it was beautifully done. And I love seeing it. Never will own one. But I like seeing them
German car makers don't want to make EVs because they lose money on every one they sell.
I think you need to explain why German EVs are so bad? Dacia are selling an EV now and it's the best selling car in Europe. Bear in mind Mercedes only covered their print advertising budget for 2022 with the EQS sales.
You are telling me that the EQS is losing Mercedes money?
Stop snorting ground lead at 3am and washing it down with hydrochloric acid, it ain't good for you :)
@@fraserwright9482 EV's are all about software and over the air updates, that's where German EV's lack, I'm told. I haven't driven one, l own a Tesla model Y.
@@fraserwright9482
Where did you get that "data"
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Even the Dacia website suggested "3rd"
Many of the reasons for “EV is doomed” are distinctly US only
True
ev's aren't doomed, ICE is doomed :)
it's over. it was a scam from the start.
Europe too, this year the sales are lower than last year. In some of the countries people are not allowed to charge at home over night because the grid can't handle it!
@@mihailatanasov3808 are you talking about Switzerland? The same country that is 30% nuclear and 60% a hydropower? Funny how easily solar farms and batteries like Tesla megapacks making micro grids would solve that problem
8:40 "EVs aren't being forced down your throat by government regulations, why do you think that??"
34:40 "It's strange that European manufacturers think they can go back to making ICE cars - the government regulations would never allow that."
Jason??
I think in the first quote he was specifically referring to the U.S. government.
We went from 100% horses to 99% cars in a bit over one decade. It was not several decades needed to build that whole fossil fuel infrastructure!
Since Hagerty sold out to State Farm their rates have tripled. RIP Hagerty. You are missed.
Everyone's insurance rates have skyrocketed. It's called International Inflation.
blame the people responsible for mismanaging the world's reserve currency (on purpose)
Really? Hagerty has NOTHING to do with auto insurance. Educate yourself and watch: czcams.com/video/mxzXkmlQrXg/video.html
Hagerty has nothing to do with auto insurance. Vehicle theft rates are the biggest cause for insurance going up. Especially in CA, TX and FL
@@shumann1605 No, vehicle theft isn't the leading reason for rising insurance rates. While theft is up since the pandemic, its still 50% lower than it was 20 years ago and more than half as much as in 1990.
The leading reason is increase in repair costs, with parts and labor being up double digit percentage points or more just in the last couple years due to the pandemic.
Hyphen doesnt sound any better
What the hell has he caught ?
Likely recorded multiple episodes...
I believe they often record two or three episodes in advance, the same day.
really ignorant takes here, its like yall forget the rest of USA isnt the Bay Area
EV is only great for those in dense urban areas with enough chargers AND own a house with a personal charger AND can afford a 2nd gas car for when they do leave the city. everyone else, gas still better
Love this comment. Jason is so myopic in his People’s Republic of Kalifornia perspective, which is surprising given all the places he claims to have lived.
All you do is have to watch his Cybertruck video and see him slobbering all over Elon.
And you don’t lose range six months out of the year in a winter climate.
If a battery cell is damaged in an accident, insurance company consider the vehicle a total loss in turn causing insurance rates to rise.
I love Jason's point - It shouldn't be a fight. It doesn't need to be this or that. It will be both for years to come. Many households need two cars. My wife and I have an EV and an ICE. It makes a lot of sense for us. I much prefer the driving experience of my EV.
The problem is since they are trying to force it down peoples throats, it is a fight. We didn't start it.
@@user-io4sr7vg1v Who's they?
@@user-io4sr7vg1v100%
Most adults do not like things forced upon them by higher authorities whom manipulate data to support a “greater good” ideology. It’s suspicious and grating. It feels like we are being lied to. If they don’t trust us enough to tell us the truth then we can’t trust them. Therein lays the predicament.
@@user-io4sr7vg1v Yeah, but you're being stupid. You've just admitted you don't have a reason to fight it -- just for the sake of the fight.
If half you assholes would exercise any semblance of open-mindedness and TRY the EV thing, most of you would be like, "Yeah, shit, this is better. Huh..."
But you fight it just for the sake of fighting. So dumb.
What if Tesla becomes the leading safety and autonomous supplier to ground, air, ocean, and space vehicle production?
My main reason for not wanting an EV is not necessarily any range/charging issue (it is an issue currently but if it was solved it wouldn't really change my mind). Its that I just don't find EV powertrains very exciting. Sure they can be really powerful but current ICE performance cars are already so fast that its not really worth trading the sound and feel I like with good ICE powertrains just to go even faster. This is even more true in motorcycle world where gas bikes are already outrageously fast and the noise and feel are even more central to the experience.
I would however take an EV pickup/SUV/Van as a "workhorse" people mover/ tow vehicle as I don't really need to be excited by that kind of vehicle...but range and charging currently do hold those vehicles back pretty significantly.
This!^ 👍
Jason is wildly incorrect regarding the overhaul of Twitter. The company was full of bloat and unproductive actors.
re twitter he fired 80% and it now runs better. what are you talking about? twitter has better economics and is a better experience for most people because most can now use it. you can talk about trans, covid, mass immigration, biden/trump, jan 6th etc etc. the narratives you can talk about aren't set by whatever the latest thing is in msm.
It has to be one vs the other because among the people that can afford cars, most of them can only afford one car.
This is an important point. I work making 90k a year, and even I really can't afford a second car. Hell, I can't even afford a house in my state. I'm a car enthusiast, and no EV is going to solve all of my issues. Am I a minority? Perhaps, but my circumstances are not unique. There are more of me out there.
FINALLY a rational, well-educated discussion on EV's. The thoughts you both expressed about Tesla/Elon in this episode almost exactly mirror my own. I was a day 1 Model 3 reservation holder who's been daily driving a Model 3 performance for 6 years now and use my enthusiast ICE cars for the weekends. It doesn't have to be a "this or that" mindset that so many people get caught up in. You can do both and experience the advantages that each provide. Elon's missteps are so disappointing because I feel that Tesla and specifically their supercharging network could've been the next iPhone moment for the car industry if he didn't keep ruining his reputation.
So if he had continued the ramp to the point where there were too few cars using the chargers (ref the "PULL BACK" by Ford, etc) which meant those chargers weren't profitable, the rates began to rise and servicing suffered, you'd be fine with that?
(Imagine the FUD?)
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Now, there will be *sufficient* chargers, and when the others pull their heads out, either Tesla will ramp or he might say to Ford, etc
"Here are the plans and the methods, YOU put your reputation on the line, pay a royalty and build them yourself!"
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Does that sound like a plan?
Poor people choose between A or B whereas wealth ones A and B, that's the main difference among them.
Elon isn't turning his back to the Supercharger network, he knows that's @Tesla competitive advantage. He's stream lining the network growth prepping the company for the next growth phase as he emphatically said. 🤔
If youre a real automtive enthusiast then you understand that walkable cities and good public transit networks are superior to having to drive everywhere. Leave driving for outside of congested cities and thatll help reduce traffic which will make those of us who like driving for pleasure to be able to actually enjoy it as a leasure
Well, in that case, find politicians willing to push those solutions, then vote for them, then approve the funding, then back them as every other "interest group" tries to knock them down.
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(Does that scenario strike a chord?)
@@rogerstarkey5390 I'm well aware of the fact that Governments in North America are inept in dealing with these issues as they are clouded by decades of corporate lobbying, selfish outlooks, and other cultural and economic sentiments that make implementing changes slow or next to impossible.
LOL does Randy falling out of the sky (in a Sky) hint at Randy being in an episode soon?
So, electric cars are all fine and dandy for home owners. Please explain to me how apartment dwellers are going to fair with the switch to electric cars.
Contrary to Jason's opinion, an EV is not simply the better choice. An EV is a better choice when people (who don't have a garages, i.e., poor people) have a place to charge them. It will be a better choice when the weight of the EV's battery + powertrain is at least close to that of the ICE battery + powertrain. Also, people will tend to rebel when they're being forced by the government, especially in the U.S., and especially when it involves what many consider a symbol of freedom (and Jason, don't act like that last part isn't so when so many car magazines push that very point).
Let's say if it fits your lifestyle it is a better choice. If not you need a different solution. If you have a public charger close and have a larger battery car - works mostly. but not always yet.
@@bavariancarenthusiast2722I've found it also becomes less and less worth it the fewer miles you drive per year. The cost parity still isn't there yet for those people. In my instance, I'm working from home - I bought an IS350 in 2021, and have put 7400 miles on it. No way would I have a similar EV and the difference in cost have broken even yet. If I didn't want a higher end car, it only gets worse - Civics and Corollas are cheap, and if you don't mind an appliance, Corolla Hybrids are REALLY cheap.
Really depends. Where I live I can charge at public parkings, apartments offer charging place, grocery stores have charging places, most hotels do now. So even if we assume you don't have a charger at home but everywhere you go has then it's not an issue. I know that's not the case but it can be.
Also, when it comes to weight, how many vehicles are significantly lighter than 4000lb EVs?
@@ruturaj47basically every car produced before the mid 2010's is lighter than a 4000 lb EV.
Oh, & they can also be diagnosed & repaired.
I come here for the Subaru roasts
I even own a Subaru, and I'm still here for it.
The day I give two shits what people think my vehicle says about me I’ll give myself a lobotomy.
Same….subarus are driven by old people, LGBTQ people or the “wrx long haired, cloth belt cladden, vaping emo” people.
25:58 The fact that you used Toyota to prove a point and then don't even point out the fact that they (literally) said they do not believe EVs are the way forward, and aren't making any (unless forced to) says everything (about you and the market).
To be fair, both extremes are wrong - Toyota believes that EVs are one small part of a multi-pronged effort including ICE, H2, HEV and EV. Their thought is reducing carbon footprint through multiple options, so people can choose what is best for them.
Toyota is not the end all be all of reference points.
The offer the ES in Germany with only the 213PS hybrid and are surprised that everyone buys a 5 series, E class or A6, with engines ranging from 150 to 600+ PS and some great diesels as well.
If I've learnt anything from Toyota's/Lexus' marketing and offerings in Germany it is that they don't know what the fuck the market demands. Heck, even god damn Skoda has more engine options suited for different customer preferences and now we are really starting to scratch the bottom of the barrel!
@@leviathan5207you seem to be confused about market segments and brand positioning.
@@aprtur They are the kings of HEVs (while also doing more PHEVs now (begrudgingly)) and have stated, quite emphatically, that when it comes to both - economy of scale and environmental impact that Hybrids are the only way to go (at this point).
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They can use the same battery etc to make a single BEV or 10+ Hybrids.
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The hybrids cost less, are more accessible to EVERYONE and have the added benefit of using less precious metals etc.
@@obsidian.... You stated exactly my point here - it's not that Toyota's roadmap doesn't include EVs, it's just that they're a part of a much longer timeline. Even then, they're still a partial solution based on customer need/interest/etc. But yes, to cut their 20+ year plan short, they do not see EV as a sole, or even viable, majority alternative at this point in time for all but the most wealthy customers who are in the "trial" or "beta" phase.
"If a headline ends with a question mark, the answer is always No."
EDIT - you should do a carmudgeon show on H2! Is Hydrogen really good for long haul trucking though? You need massive super high pressure tanks on the truck, you still need batteries, the fuel cell and storage architecture is very problematic given the pernicious nature of hydrogen - meaning more and frequent maintenance costs for vehicle, depots and production facilities.. fuel and equipment costs will be very expensive until proper scale can be reached, and it's unclear what the actual range of the vehicles will be.. as of right now doesn't look great. It will always be less efficient than a BEV and if we are talking about some amazing H2 future tech that will make things mo' better then also worth mentioning that battery tech is also improving albeit at a much faster rate.
Hydrogen isn't even good for long haul trucking.
It's either a really inefficient EV, or a less efficient combustion engine.
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As for development, the laws of physics are a problem.
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Every time you change the state of a liquid or gas, you're using "Energy".
Since the whole system of energy transfer from the electrical grid to the wheels of a vehicle is reliant on "system efficiency" using a system that requires:
2 changes of state,
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Energy hungry cryogenic storage,
and
Physical transport of the medium to point of use (in vehicles requiring fuel)
Is simply illogical.
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Now pay that to an industry where one of, if not THE most important metrics is fuel cost per mile driven....
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Long haul trucking is probably the LAST place you want Hydrogen.
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Here's where some says "Ah! But the RANGE!
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OUTRANGE the driver.
EVs can.
"Top-up" while the driver rests (mandatory).
EVs can.
Complete the shift.
EVs can.
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Charge to full while the driver sleeps.
EVs can
(DOES NOT have to be a "fast" charge! Nobody seems to consider that.... Yet)
there are two types of usage of hydrogen in vehicles; they refer to the one in which the vehicle is not an EV.
@@eugenux Hydrogen combustion internal combustion engines have very poor efficiency, much worse than gas or diesel. Engineering Explained has a few videos on it if you want to check them out.
@@takeshikovacs02that's beyond the point; hydrogen is everywhere, we just need to get more efficient at processing it.
EVs were never the answer. Trains are the answer. Any transportation that isn’t for the fun of driving is better done as a passenger of a much more efficient vehicle.
And that will never happen because ever since the invention of the car we have not liked trains unless gen z takes power soon
A great example: trains in Japan.
Nope you are wrong. There is always both writing from Europe with a dense network infrastructure of public transport - this can never displace all individual means. EV´s are the cleanest answer for now to Individual traffic cars.
I daydream a lot now about freeing the automobile from its current role as mass transport. Probably not possible to do COMPLETELY (some people are still going to have specific needs that public transport can't fulfill) but cars are at their worst when they're appliances.
Conversely, cars are at their _best_ when they're allowed to just be tools for adventure - ANY adventure.
@bavariancarenthusiast2722
The issue from the U.S. point of view is that ALL of our transportation is via cars. Europe (and most other modern countries/areas) have good enough public transport for using a car to be a choice. EVs may be the answer if the U.S. has usable public transportation/walking.
Like it or not, electrification has been politicized. The Carmudgeons stepped in dung on this one.
Nah. They're fine. They can talk about things, have opinions. My opinion, EVs are done. Fire safety and cold temperature range ended them.
@@pgtmr2713my opinion is you couldn’t be more wrong. Fact is EV’s are as bad as they will ever be right now and they’re competitive with ICE cars. 10 years from now EV’s will far surpass anything being built today.
@@mrh3085quite the prophecy. I heard the same thing about self driving cars 10 years ago.
@@mrh3085 Electric car companies will be out of business before they can ever solve their problems. If one syas Pinto, people think of car fires and slow. Electric cars the memory will be car fires, slave labor mining, cold problems, people other people don't like.
@@pgtmr2713Pinto also stopped production. Mustang would be a better example, which went from a secretary's car to "the last remaining american muscle car on sale" today. Do you think anyone calls the S650 Mustang's secretary's cars?
Wow! What a clap!
“I intentionally handicap my EV so that I have to drive one of my 10 other cars” isn’t particularly relatable to the rest of us. I’m fortunate to have 3 cars (1 for wife, 2 for me) and both of our DDs need to go long distances in remote areas regularly in all weather, and the third sports car certainly isn’t being traded in on an EV. Anything remotely affordable is a penalty box (and don’t tell me about the Inoque 5 N, you know Hyundai dealers are going to Hyundai dealer ADM that thing to the moon) and I don’t want it.
Yea, I couldn't relate since I personally only use the heli or the yacht, since my 250GTO and 300SL Uhlenhaut are to precious to be druven around. /s
Twitter is operating just fine with only 10% of the previous staff numbers.
"Operating just fine" is quite a stretch
Twitter is filled with bots
Problem of this is Europe is not a single unified entity, the culture and ecomonic level of Spain, Italy or Portugal has nothin to do with Germany or UK, in the first ones the average salary is 25k and most people lives in old flats whith have no garage so you cant afford an EV and you cant charge it, in the second ones the average salary is nearly double and there are a lot more single houses with their own garage where you can install a charger.
So the problem is people in goverments are disconnected from reality and are not having this kind of differences in mind
I agree, let the market, the free market decide. To answer the question honestly whether EV adoption is really slowing, don't tariff safety compliant Chinese cars (ICE, Hybrid or EV) in NA and then check the results. The MSM are going to be loyal to their big advertisers like legacy OEMs. The politicians will be loyal to their donors, including the auto worker unions. Remove the distortion--no tax deductions or subsidies for EVs, Hybrids, ICE or oil companies. If people can purchase a compelling, affordable and reliable vehicle, they will regardless of whether it has an EV drive train.
You raise several good points I agree with, but I’d take issue with the idea that government policy should play no role. For one, it’s not really feasible. Cars need roads to work: roads that are funded by government. This is a huge distortion in the market. But as a community, we (mostly) agree it’s necessary.
There are other externalised costs the community bears, and government has an interest in addressing these. Exhaust gases have significant costs because of the effects on both climate and respiratory health. Meanwhile the US spend trillions on wars in the Middle East - would they if there was no oil there? These are not issues any one car company or consumer can address. But as a community we can (if we think these issues matter).
So government policy can and (I think) should play a role in incentivising and accelerating desired outcomes. We just need to choose where we want to go, and make sure any incentive structure is calibrated to deliver that outcome in a cost-effective and non-corrupt way. (And yeh those caveats aren’t trivial).
As with many new technologies, to be able to get to scale and be competitive, the catalytic effect of incentives has been necessary - and that’s to be expected. But maybe you’re right - and going forward, subsidies for EVs won’t be necessary, particularly if all oil/gas subsidies are also removed? I fully believe EVs would outcompete ICE cars - they are far simpler, less maintenance, and their components are better-suited to mass manufacture.
Now, if there was just a way to price in the cost of wars and pollution…
guys you really should talk less about subjects like mass layoffs if you don't understand the fundamentals of running a large corporate like tesla. also, stop making assumptions about what elon's doing based on your ignorance of his personality and how he does stuff. just read walter isaacson's biography of elon musk, it will clue you in on why elon does what he does (mostly).
re the super charger team, the director refused to make hard decisions. tesla isn't a club it's a business, it got where it is and will get where it's going with more hard decisions. you can't have directors that can't make hard decisions. he was right to fire her. whether firing them all and hiring SOME of them back works only time will tell. but let's not try to second guess someone like musk and assume he's 'maverick' style is now harming tesla. please. tesla's about to launch robo taxi's for real which will revolutionise transport over the next 10 years.
While I am very much anti-EV personally, they do have their place. The final statement about "there's not one silver bullet", I completely agree with. EVs have their place, hydrogen has it's place, ICE has it's place. Porsche has even been working on synthetic fuels, which I certainly can get behind. I'm fine with the possibility of needing to convert to a different kind of fuel as long as I get to keep my ICE vehicles that have the soul, sounds and personality that an EV simply will never have. There should be options for everyone, it just sucks the EV agenda is getting shoved down our throats left and right.
Flaming liberals hating on Elon. How ironic...
Let’s go Brandon!!
HURRDURR POLITCAL SPORTS TEAM
I feel a big over looked factor in going all EV is the African market. If all manfucatures goes EV what will happen to Africa. I live in Africa and we don't have stable electricity. Alot of horse holds still don't have eltricty at home. Internal combustion engines are still required for Africa and other places that does not have the infrastructure to support going full EV.
We all pay pretty much the same amount for petrol, give or take local discrepancies, as others in our geographic locale. The price people pay for their electricity, particularly away from home, varies by an order of magnitude or more!
With most in densely populated urban areas unable to charge at home, being beholden to an unreliable and highly contested public charging network which will multiply your costs of operation is just not an attractive proposition.
The people with a level 2 charger and dual rate off peak metering at home will be fine… but also might struggle to empathise much with those who don’t.
Most I’ve seen is roughly 0.5 usd per kilowatt hour in the UK, lowest is 0.05 usd. So one order? And the UK is an outlier
Great conversation, thanks guys!
Elon seems to only make erratic and shortsighted decisions these days. I hope all those engineers end up in places where they can better support the EV industry as a whole.
Sure. I see your point, and i can't imagine being on the end these firings, however, why does that seem to be a trend in innovative companies? It may look like erratic and shortsighted, but i doubt the latter is true. Elon may be erratic, but he isn't stupid. If this firing truly impacts Tesla negatively, he wouldn't have done it.
You probably know this, but, here it is again. It's sometimes better to make a decision now, and face the consequences quickly, rather than pushing it out. Sometimes these decisions end up premature, but in the end, this culture of "hard core" as Elon likes to describe, is what builds up a better long term for Tesla, even if it hurts everyone in the progress.
I remember hearing an ex-Tesla employee describe that each of his companies always feel sorry for whichever company Elon is focusing on at the moment. Whenever Elon comes to your company, everyone hates it, but it always works out, and once they've rebuilt after the mayhem, a better company exists than what was there before.
Love it or hate it, it's what runs all Elons companies, and its one of the many factors explaining their success.
Maybe i'm wrong, but this at least makes sense to me.
Revisit your comment in 3-6 months
Elon is just an insecure ass dude. First he hates on every other EV company openly on X. Hates on Instagram and Facebook in order to boost X. Lies all the time about release dates, what teslas will be capable of doing, range estimates, uses rollout for all their claimed "0-60" times, etc.. I wanted to like the guy but he really is a straight up deceiver. The worst part is tesla sheep fans will believe everything he says. I think he does most of this out of insecurities
@@sebastianorye2702 well said! Meanwhile over at rivian and lucid? Rivians CEO has authorized 23% of his staffing cut in the past 20 months.
Lucid has cut 18% in just the last 12 months, fisker is going bankrupt again etc.
Heck lucid&rivian per Forbes have vaporized over $31,000,000,000+between them just since 2019. For about 125k vehicle's produced. 😂👍🏻
Elon went through similar firing sprees in 2012, 2014, 2017, 2019 and 2021 and probably before 2012 as well.
He did the same thing at SpaceX (publicly we know of the Raptor Engine layoffs and the Starlink layoffs).
The only thing left to say: It ain't stupid if it works.
To everyone saying there is no obvious trend towards mass EV adoption in Europe: at least where I am from, Belgium, most people are holding off on buying new ICEs and waiting for EV prices to drop, because it is mostly agreed upon it is the future. No one wants to be left holding the bag on an ICE they can't sell down the line. The group that is buying new ICEs in large volumes are rich people who need the extreme range or who want that noise or old school interior opulence not yet available in mass market EVs. The shift is real. Every EV supporting aspect on a societal level, from home solar panel installations, at-work and roadside charging infrastructure to some cities needing paid passes to be able to enter with fine particle polluting vehicles point in one direction: EV transition.
I do wonder when these guys last drove in Germany . Long gone are the days when you could drive at 250kmph for 7 hrs !
Full speed limits coming soon?
Totally agree with the views Jason ans Derek stated. We need to use the different tools at our disposal for different purposes whether it is the automobile or the power source. Everything has it's strength and weakness meaning somethings are better suited to a particular purpose.
Will EV`s save the planet ? i don't know, but, what i feel is THE main benefit of EV`s is, reducing the pollution our children breathe, the damage lead did to people we are still seeing in human populations today, lead sticks around a long time.
There is still of course pollution from EVs driving by, in some places, stirring up pollutants deposited over years by combustion engines and more recently, catalytic convertors, to a lesser extent to the past, but, ...EV`s for the win as far as pollution on roads beside our children, the roads that take us to our homes, not just highways, roads in cities where millions live and work, places we`ve made it difficult for all but the toughest animals like rats to survive (i know, i know, *chuckles*), also, imagine how quiet, hopefully, the world will become, or quieter, ...so we can hear that domestic argument six blocks over, clear as day.
Save gasoline/petrol for us `old car` lovers, the `old cars` cars that drink dinosaur juice, while using EV`s for transport ...that's my five cents worth on the EV debate, i know a younger generation will never look back at `classic` cars that we all love today, even the love of engine sounds has changed, people like the EV futuristic sound, and even gas/petrol cars today have fake engine noises, the shift is there, even fake manual transmissions are impressing people, so ..i don`t know, perhaps EV`s have begun seeping into what current drivers want too, im more a 350Hp at the wheels is PLENTY kinda guy, more is more, but so is the weight, so more power needed, more battery needed, more mass, less fun for me personally, but the times they are a changing (charging ?) .
The latest EV`s discussed/reviewed seem to me personally, as marketing asking,
"what do performance car drivers want ? no wrong answers, what do people love ? " "well, power, big Hp number, okay, quick 0-100kmh/62Mph with launch mode, okay, and longer range than people need to avoid range anxiety, and a manual transmission, they want to take their hands from the wheel to play with a gear shift ..even if its not real for some reason, oh, and gadgets, lots of gadgets, people want to forget they are in a car, and have a sound system and comfy seats like a living room ...only better "
So most of those things are easy boxes to tick but now we end up with a heavier than necessary car, unnecessarily heavy electric motors to still make the car fast, despite the fact it needs a heavier than necessary battery and all its associated wiring and cooling systems, and the extended entertainment systems.
To some of us, that's all unnecessary, a smaller battery, lighter car, lighter motors, big brakes, and a fantastic handling characteristic, no powerful entertainment system, just the things required for driving, maybe aiming for no power steering too, that's a target perhaps not mentioned to the marketing people, cornering and stopping was less important than drag racing to 100/62 and having electronic distractions and eco tires.
To a younger generation, it may not matter about the handling and such, the shift i think HAS happened, the overly powerful thing may die down eventually, a family car with 1,000 Hp though may become a constant still in some form as the halo model, my thoughts always are `but what happens when you get to a corner with those speeds ? how do you change physics ?` design and tech has done well to hide EV`s mass, but ...its still there, and when you need to stop or change its direction in a hurry ...physics, not just a good idea,... its the law!
...i could go on, but, ill keep it brief for`reader losing interest` reasons.
Thank you for todays episode, feel better now ive had my Carmudgeon fix, much appreciated.
Be good (or not, ...im not your dad), and keep smiling.
Candy and Dan. 🐶❤🧙♂🍄
(todays edit inserts gave me some hearty chuckles, good work)
All hail the Al Gore rhythm
Just read the Master Plan (2006)
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It's not "EVs"
It's "Energy transition"
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EVs are a means to an end.
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(Plus, Tony Seba)
Y’know, Jason, after two and a quarter years and 40k+ miles, we still love our ID.4. Just because you didn’t like it in your brief experience doesn’t mean they are as bad as you constantly claim they are.
The ID.4 is such an overhated car by some journalists.
I think all of them hate it mainly cause of the software, but just because the software the press 2021 launch cars had wasn’t that good doesn’t mean it hasn’t improved since over three years ago, it has improved significantly.
I like Jason and I genuinely believe he is one of the best journalists in his space but it especially felt like Jason’s initial review was very nit-picky imo, especially parts like when he was talking about how VW “skimped” on the safety or whatever because he saw a support bar he didn’t like, even though the ID.4 is rated as being safer in safety tests by multiple sources compared to cars like the IONIQ 5, EV6 and Mach-E which he goes gaga over.
Also talking about those other EVs he likes despite hating the ID.4, the ID.4 still does things better than them. For example the ID.4 fast charges significantly better, is more efficient, has better thermals and rides better than the Mach-E, has more standard horsepower than the IONIQ 5 and EV6, has a much nicer interior than the hard plastic fantastic interiors that you find on most IONIQ 5s and all IONIQ 6s, has more headroom and storage than the EV6, and has much better QC and ride than a Model Y. The ID.4 also qualifies for the full $7500 tax credit which none of those cars listed besides the Model Y qualify for.
The ID.4 makes a good point for itself in this market, especially with its updates lately, the hate it gets from Jason is just way too much imo, basing his entire perspective of the ID.4 based on limited experience with a 3 year old model running much older software than what is available now.
I’d like to see Jason try a 2024 model without the stigma of his brief experience with the 2021 that he hated, majority of the issues he didn’t like about the 2021 have been fixed.
The ID.4 is proof that a mediocre EV is still a fantastic car.
@@sjwright2 What is mediocre about it? I have had 30+ cars, including 8 VWs (which is why I got an ID.4) and 6 Lotuses, so I have had other cars to compare it to. The build quality is better than Tesla and it is nicer than the Mazda CX-9 that it replaced. It has left us stranded fewer times than the Mazda (why did they put the BCM at the base of the a-pillar where the sunroof drain overflows into?) The biggest problem that we have had is the lack of charging infrastructure when we drive further than the range of a single charge, which is easy to do when you live in a semi-rural area.
@@alanperry8676 As I said, it's a fantastic car. Nice ride, quiet, well built, etc. It's also a mediocre EV. Software build quality below par. Range is good but below par. Performance is good but below par. Interior plastics are fine but below par. No choice of one-pedal driving.
@@sjwright2 The plastic bits are the same as my Mk7 GTI and it isn't a premium-priced vehicle. And the general build quality is better than the Model 3s that I have seen. I don't care about one pedal driving (or a frunk). CarPlay support is as much software as I need and the version in our ID.4 is better than my GTI (as well as most of the rental I have used it in). A friend at the state motor pool (which has a big mix of EVs) say they have found the range of their ID.4s to be average, not "below par".
To be honest, I wish every episode was 2+ hrs since I listen to you guys while working, but something is better than nothing at the end of the day
300 gaz stations for... 2million trucks? 🤣 Sure....
Elon does that a lot: Fire people to a point where it becomes necessary to hire them back. He even said, if you don't fire enough that you have to hire 10% back, you have not fired enough.
He does this about once every 2 years with all of his companies. Its his algorithm.
Regardless of how you think of the morality of this: It is the opposite of a rash decision.
Kind of baffling you talk about this extensively without knowing Elons firing and hiring practices
Yup pre 2020 he averaged cutting 6% of tesla staff annually. Since 2020 he only cut 2% once!
It was way past overdue imo! People should've been more careful demanding he focus on tesla. 😁
Also how about those clowns running lucid and rivian one cut 23% of his staff since July of 2022 and the other cut 18% in the past 12 months.
They've burned up over $31,000,000,000 now between them per Forbes and produced about 125,000 evs in total! 😀
Germans will always ask you to turn the engine off when parked it’s happened to me many times . Chucking the keys is an escalation!
Germans like telling others what to do. It’s in their dna.
What a ridiculous brain rot.
Hence BMW having offered the REST function for years and years 🙂
As they should! There is literally no good reason to keep the engine running when PARKED! Unless you are a getaway driver I guess.
@@leviathan5207 It’s nobody’s business. Keep your nose out of mine or it might get broken.
Hybrids are the half way point between EV and ICE.
Too many car manufacturers took too long to make hybrid vehicles.
I never considered buying an EV until I bought a hybrid. That is when I realized for myself that my preconceived notions on EV's may have been wrong.
The biggest hurdle keeping me out of the EV market is that I can't charge them from home.
EV is the answer for now... We are told. We can't argue their performance, quietness and like all other digital things their rapid evolution... But buying an EV feels like buying a computer, phone, digital camera .. it's great the first 6 months and then it's usurped 6 months later... And 2 years later... Irrelevant... The OS and other things get upgraded... But the battery tech stays the same and quickly becomes outdated.... Sigh
be rapid changes. Of course there are going to ICE is at the top of it's development curve with nowhere to go
I think that just illustrates how quickly evs are getting better and better
Performance= handling, braking, and top speed. Not just straight line acceleration. EVs aren't even close to the top 10 cars around nurumbring. Plus they cant sustain multiple laps without severely degrading in performance. But anyways what makes a car special has always been the character and driving engagement. EVs have none of that. They impress average Joe's that have never been able to afford a fast car but that will die off quickly. I've already seen people get bored of them.
@@G82Watts they rule that track you absolute muppet! The top 3 cars at the nurburgring are all evs or hybrids now. 😂
Porsches new taycan turbo gt ran a 7:07 at 4,900#, Porsche gts hybrid ran 8s faster despite weighing 107# more vs the last gts.
The ice age is OVER period=the end. You'll been seen as smokers are within 3-5 more year's and completely ignored within 10. 👍🏻
You are aware that the lucid, new model 3 performance, lotus, rimac and various other CAN handle as well if not better than combustion engine cars, their ability to torque vector allows them to put handle most anything.
It may not give them classic character, and top speed and lap time don't really mean much on the road... A car that has engaging handling and offers driving experience at lower speeds is actually a lot more relevant
Toyota had the right approach with sticking with hybrids
Note from Tesla-fan land:
Musk has forced drastical changes including massive layoffs multiple times at Tesla and even at SpaceX - it certainly helps against rot and is something that happens in silicon valley but never at other car manufacturers.
If it's a huge mistake _this time around_ ? - I don't know. But betting against Musk has been known as a dangerous game for 20 years now.
Remember the Tesla price increases early ...2022(?)
When everyone was laughing, predicting "the end of Tesla"?
Then by the end of the year every other manufacturers were all raising prices?
THEN, in Q1, Tesla prices REDUCED and it was "Elon's started a price war!!!" (Where NOBODY could match the drop)?
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He's *proactive*
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Wait for.... Jan '25..... See how the Geopolitical and Fiscal landscape lies.
My bet is "not good" with Tesla healthy.
20+year's and 6 different companies He's started up or helped found have now reached valuations over $10,000,000,000+
Never bet against Elon!
Wasn't it in 2021 or 22 he fired most of the spacex starlink team and less than 3 years later they have over 3,000,000 paying customers on over 7,000 orbiting satellites. That teams boss told him they couldn't accomplish what he wanted=goodbye! 😁
Finally, some discussion in line with reality.
Considering the grid, we are at capacity in many places in the US. I hear what youre saying about already having electricity, but wouldn't we be going backwards? Most states wont allow new nuclear construction so that means coal plants. And alot more of them.
This is a very good point. Collectively we’re quite narrow sighted when it comes infrastructure. The non-Texas south and basically anything that isn’t a popular city between the coasts are just falling apart/extremely outdated without plans to upgrade or fix any of it. Hell even coastal states/wealthy population centers aren’t very far ahead either.
Coal isn't competitive economically. It's use has been in decline for nearly 20 years. Solar and wind coupled with batteries are on an exponential growth curve, half as expensive as coal on an equalized cost/MWh. "The grid" isn't static (staying the same over time). 160+ gigawatts (nominal) of renewables were brought online in the US in 2023. In 2023 renewables contributed 23% to all electricity in the US, a 2% increase over 2022.
@@kng128 oh I get it. I'm not for coal plants except if we are in dire need. Renewable are a viable option in a mix of power options, but they aren't the future in and of themselves. Some places don't have consistent wind. Some places don't have enough sunlight. I think our best bet is a mix of all. I would like to see more nuclear especially with current technology.
Jason just because you live in the exalted world of being an auto reviewer does not mean that EVs are a given or any kind of eventuality. I love you but this is by far your hottest take.
In short, EVs are a much much longer term process. Aside from consumer preferences, we don’t have nearly enough raw material production online. We’ve never doubled any commodity’s production in a year, but we need 8x the copper, lithium, nickel, zinc, and additional metals to hit the current EV targets. That’s just one macroeconomic challenge.
EVs subsidies need to stop.
Tesla's biggest problem is that they're a publicly traded company. Elon has the philosophy that the best part is no part; the best process is no process. When he deletes things like the supercharger team and then hires some of the members back, he's simply following his algorithm. One only has to look at the developments at SpaceX to see that he is on the right track.
If your reading this comment. For as long as you are alive there will be ICE powered vehicles and equipment due to the nature of just how ICE works. There will also be electric vehicles and equipment too for the same reasons why there are ICE powered vehicles and equipment. Its mainly just down to the situation where said vehicles and equipment is being used. To keep it real simple you would not take an electric vehicle or equipment to a place or situation where it cant be recharged, you would take a ICE vehicle or equipment and vice versa. I really don't see what the problem is? Also just a little note, the oil and gas companies seem to not care either way ICE or electric mainly due to how much dependence we have on there product. The ICE vehicles and equipment use most of the same stuff as an electric vehicle and equipment, plastics, metals, electronics, organics. Same stuff in the end.
Its like a funny game of "Who has what resource" and why YOU cant have it for what ever reason it may be lol.
There is more nuance to the supercharger team being fired.... a Tesla subcontractor called Smart Charge America mentioned that installation jobs that were supposed to take 4 weeks were being done in 8 to 14 months. Elon found out and fired them all when Rebecca said she could not fire more people....
That was destination charging, not supercharging
I don't see how that, even if it is accurate, justifies what he did
@@thedownwardmachine
Think it through.
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Elon sees a possible recession coming (mentioned many times)
He's "Housekeeping" to preempt and effect (true to form, he's taken action before)
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He looks at DATA on the way back from China.
(We don't have that data, do we?)
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Realises that since "THE 180° PULLBACK" by Ford etc the rate of charger installation decided after Ford and the others said they were "IN" would mean essentially TOO MANY chargers to be profitable.
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Then he realises that upgrading V2 to V3/4, completing new installations in progress and filling some gaps, will be more than sufficient until those other companies "grow a pair" and start producing the thousands of cars *they promised*
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He then wonders why management didn't see this and get him up to speed.
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Makes the calls, doesn't get the right answers.
(They don't want to make cuts)
Since he can't trust the managers, he's looking at either interviewing 500+ people, or taking the hard but fast method of "you're out.... Do you want your job back?"
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Clear?
@@thedownwardmachineyou likely have more insight than someone who oversaw the benchmarks in an entire new automotive category and made it succeed against all odds. Surely, you know better
Tesla in 2018 was $50B now is $500B
Model Y best selling car in the world in 2023
Best charging network in the world
Tesla has the best profit margin of any mass car company
All of this under Elon’s leadership… I don’t think it make sense to talk about Elon hurting Tesla yet.
I'm surprised that Jason actually thought Elon was smarter than him. Smart oligarchs don't let themselves become famous supervillains.
Haven't you understood that it's the REAL "supervillains" that have convinced YOU that he is one?
This is a complete Systemic Disruption in progress.
I'm talking transport, energy, medicine, (diagnosis, treatment and drug supply) labour market, money(!) and Geopolitical influence.
The whole thing.
Those *above* media, industry and government are threatened.
Until they see and seize the opportunity, it's going to be "misinformation central"
What exactly makes him a supervillain in your eyes?
The Sky is falling. Nice pull and Easter egg, editors!
the question is: how good can EV be if the government has to mandate them and use taxpayer money to heavily subsidize them? It's mostly governments and a few very vocal activists pushing this agenda.
I got burned out with all the EV hype last Christmas...right before the stall, and anti-EV hype. Two and three tonne EV are not going to "save" the world. We're still three years off from practical, commodity EV.
practical, commodity ev: tesla model 3 and Y.
they've been selling for a while now. the Y was the best selling passenger car in 2023 worldwide. not just the best selling ev, the best selling car in general.
@@delusion2987 A $50k+ vehicle with a $22k battery is not a commodity. Owners were trading them like stocks. I'm talking about the $15k Chinese EV that are coming.
@@chrisstavro4698 average new car price is $47k. a model 3 goes for $40k new, a model y goes for $45k new. they are by definition commodity cars. on the used market a 2y old 25k mile model 3 goes for $25k.
by far the most popular car segment, the "commodity" car is a model y size crossover, a rav4 kind of car. NOT a tiny tin can like the $10k (in china) BYD seagull. btw BYD cars sell for double the price in europe compared to china. cheap chinese evs are a myth for now in the west. they are super affordable domestically in china but outside not so much. a BYD dolphin (think Golf size) costs only 5k euro less than a model 3 and is a smaller and worse car in every way.
@@delusion2987 The model Y *starts* at $45. $47k isn't affordable for most. Even at $15-20k, chinese EV will sell well. They may not be "top shelf" right now, and they're improving at a scary rate.
The chinese buy a new car every 16 months. That's a commodity. I saw the seagull last month. People in industry are very concerned, as they should be.
There are "many" chinese companies, and it's very much China against the world. We'll have to wait and see how it plays out.
@@chrisstavro4698
don't need anything more than the base Y or 3, the LFP CATL/BYD packs are superior to the NCM Panasonic/LG of the LR in terms of battery life and you don't sacrifice much in terms of range and charging speed. it's not worth to upgrade to the long range in my view.
but in any case, the Seagull has been talked about yes. They are even putting a cheaper Sodium Ion battery in it next year but the problem with this car is that it is too small and the price jump will be noticeable when it comes to the west. unfortunately BYD doesn't give us here in Europe the bargain prices on their cars. of course i would buy a BYD if it were priced like it is in China or marginally more but it isn't.
chinese cars are good, im more looking at ones like the Li Auto Mega and the Zeekr 001 which have the new LFP CATL pack and charge from 10-80% in 12 minutes with a 300mile/500km real world range. those cars cost about $40-45k in china currently but it's early days for that battery pack, the cost should come down.
Rivian and Lucid have the same issue. They are selling 150K cars for 85 or in Lucids case 500K dollar cars for 90K or even in the case of the sapphire, what 750K car for 250K. Making a car is easy. Making the machine that makes the cars at volume is hard. They should stop trying to compete with Tesla and sell them for what they are worth.
They are only “worth” what you can convince someone to actually pay. If there were buyers at those inflated prices they wouldn’t be lowering the price.
EVs are NOT a march of progress; not even close, no matter what the other countries think.
Agree with 99% of what you experts say. Just one small point. 80% of Twitter staff fired and the app is now better than before with more features. Different situation to Tesla, which is mostly engineers and not activists.
The more I listen, the more I think Jason is not objective at all in his views. He just rationalises his subjective opinions to the point of thinking he is objective and fair.
BINGO!
"No longer viable to make a vehicle just for the U.S. market"....are you that dense?
Ive been out of the new car market for decades now. Unfortunately that means im at the mercy of those who do buy new. Where i live E.V.s as they currently exist wont work. So limbo we are
Where do you live where it doesn't work.
@@LaJuanHughes Shenandoah Valley virginia. Wasn't that long ago where they were pulling ev's out of the snow a couple hundred miles south of us
@@blaineadams7484I agree with you 100%. There are many areas in US (quite vast) that EV's just don't work financially challenging and practically.
Their range takes a beating here in Detroit during the winter.
@@Turshin yes they do, and NY is no better
People with evs won’t be like the ones you speak of after 12 years because the battery will be more valuable then the cars at that point. Doing a battery swap, to compare with motor swaps, won’t win out to new car purchases. Killing the used car market. Not sure what this will mean or if it would happen but evs would in the end be detrimental to the average market buyer over time. Unless we figure out power, maybe this is that lull between technology jumps. Interesting topic.
legacy auto can'T make compelling ev's, that's whats doomed. grab the popcorn
Bottom line in EV adoption is the cost of electricity vs the cost of gas. Always follow the money.
Hertz foray into EVs is a perfect example of culture trumping strategy. I purposefully rented Teslas and agents tried to talk me out of my rental twice.
Paying people shitty wages, providing poor instruction and expecting them to go the extra mile to explain how to operate simple things like a the key card on a Tesla is impossible.
Getting into a Tesla for the first time is daunting. The last place you want to do that is in a new, unfamiliar town.
You're exactly right about the e-Golf, I've got 60k miles on my 2017 and it's brilliant. It only needs two motors and 50% more range to be perfect. Also a working phone app. Looking forward to the R3.
We also have an e-tron SUV, you're not wrong about that too. Boring af, but smooth, and great in snow.
"DISINGENUOS CALIFORNIA THINK GARBAGE" IS WHAT THIS EPISODE SHOULD BE TITLED.
Yes! My finger is waving over the unsubscribe button
Elon's next move.... buy Hagerty so he can fire Jason for hurting his feelings.
EVs still need time. Right now, they cost more and come with additional inconveniences compared to ICE equivalent cars. These are significant factors for many buyers.
Agreed. I’m not anti EV at all, but I’m not sure about the long term value prop of these early products. I tend to keep cars longer than a three year lease, do my best to avoid a lot of depreciation, and I tend to lean towards long term durability. Right now, a 10 year old EV seems to be as economically risky as a Maserati Quattroporte smg. I’m not sure that will change much until new battery chemistry comes to market. The other factor is not just EVs, but software defined vehicles… how long will OEMs maintain the software in models they no longer sell?
Model y is cheaper than the national average of a new car.
@@jmtzero1 Not in my nation.
I don't think EVs need time. People and charging infrastructure need time. Most of the early issues have been solved. For example battery life, EVs haven't been around long enough to prove that they will last a long time, the Tesla model 3 is only 6 years old. Most of what people know about EVs they've learned from headlines from early model S. Also charging roll-out will be slow. Charging is a low margin business.
@@kylem324 LFP has been here for 3 years. 10 year old LFP 3s and Ys will be the bargain of the early 2030s.
You guys are Awesome!!!! thanks
It doesn't need to be "this or that" but EV drivers have this ideology that they are saving the enviroment, and pushing it on others. As a 20 year old, I lust after jaguar e types, mercedes 6.9's, aircooled 911's. No EV can replace that, and I'm not going to be guilt tripped into a fad.
Amen, more power to ya!!
I once had a drooling EV idiot tell me that his ID4 was delivered to him "net zero". I congratulated him on getting an EV that didn't have a battery in it which also runs off of unicorn smiles & pixie laughter, rather than a large pile of extracted rare earths at the hands of 3rd world slave children & electricity that comes from burnt coal & gas.
Driving EV is Just like being a vegan.. 😃
So you have met and talked to ALL EV drivers to independently confirm this stereotype then?
Counterpoint: My neighbour bought an EV to charge using the solar panels he already had and thus safe money on his commutes but runs around in an R129 SL600 on the weekend.
Truly sounds like someone pushing his ideologies on others /s
EV driver here. I bought my first EV for performance and because it excited me as a driver. Same for my second as well as for the tech. Not at all like being a vegan - no sacrifice here, I think the cars are better…depending on your use case, preferences, and access to charging.
I like those cars (the old jags, Porsches old and new) - go get one if you can and enjoy it. Don’t let yourself be judged… and please don’t judge others
@@leviathan5207 it was meant it as a joke, i haven't talk to all ev drivers and i don' t want to.. if you want to drive ev thats your decision just dont go out and critisize the people that don't want to do nothin with them.. thats all
It is really odd to see Jason get bent out of shape for the criticism of his review of the Cybertruck. Despite developing a public reputation of a knowledgeable person, he will often fudge facts to make the story better. His Cybertruck review was no exception. But people are just picking on him or choosing a side when they call him out.
At least be consistent. How episodes was it where he said that no one cared about stuff like the poor panel gap on Teslas and now people shouldn’t care about the low quality ratings that Teslas get because it is only stuff like panel gaps. What happened to “no one cares” about that stuff?
Jason is very optimistic and will unfortunately be proven wrong in the long term, not regarding how good evs are but regarding you being able to drive your gas cars. More gas for us all is not a real thing, once most people have evs your local governments will largely forbid you from driving your combustion cars around. I’m sure he’s aware of how many places in Europe are like this with cars that are a mere 15 years old, imagine when most cars are electric and yours is a demonized fuel consuming car. The infrastructure will also slowly disappear the more people have evs. The virtue signaling tree huggers will regulate your gas cars out of existence. This is the definition of a slippery slope..
The example Derek brought up of that asshole in Berlin taking the keys out of an idling classic car is a sign of things to come. Idk how so many people can be so oblivious to how bad this is gonna get for people that like gas cars.
Im not some antivaccine moron but remember how tyrannical things got with the pandemic, instead of covid it’s gonna be emissions.
that won't happen before you rationally decide to move over to electric. when there's chargers everywhere, the car goes 600km and charges in 10 minutes, what is the point of owning combustion? novelty? well, they won't ban historic cars im pretty sure. but what value does a golf or corolla have? it's just an appliance. if a better one comes along, you rationally switch.
The regulatory environnement will be postponed, as always
I watch this podcast and am also shopping for a Subaru. I am the problem.
Unless it’s a BRZ, you should buy a mirror first and have a good long look at yourself.
Signed,
- a recovered Subaru fanboi
@@EUC-lid Cosigned. BRZ is fun (I own one), the rest of their lineup is sad. Used to have some diversity in there with things like the BRAT and Baja, now everything is a crossover.
Subarus used to be unique when they were AWD cars that got 30% better fuel economy than anything else with AWD. They actually were CARS! Now they are a ubiquitous SUV/Crossover in a saturated market, with a wannabe cult following. I no longer see them as a vehicle that stands out as different on the road. In most of the US EVs still stand out on the road.
Here’s a take I’ve not heard in the mainstream media. If someone that works for defies a mandate that is designed keep the corporate culture “hard core” which is literally single most defining trait of Tesla represents then person is challenging the vitality of the whole company. That’s a coup and it can’t be tolerated. Everyone at Tesla has more work than they have people to do it with, that’s the point. It forces a level of resourcefulness that keeps the company ahead. You can’t tolerate that in your organization unless you want your corporate culture taken over.
Absolute nonsense thatICEs are over. There is no consumer groundswell here in the UK for EVs. Theyve flatlined at 16% market share for 3 years running.
In many countries the highest selling product is a Toyota Hilux
I’m pretty sure your figure is either 100% false or you got fooled by someone stating the rate of acceleration of growth is stagnant (which means growth is still happening).
The first figures I can find with Google suggest that UK buyers have already purchased over 1M BEVs this year (
i have zero interest in an EV....not suitable for locations which have a real winter and not interested in any vehicle which cannot be filled/charged in about the same time as an ICE vehicle...
Guys, 3.6M applicants at Tesla in 2022. 5.9M job applicants in 2023. It's harder to get a job at tesla than to get into Harvard. I saw a podcast with an MIT engineering professor that said when he runs names of big companies that his students would like to work at, like Amazon, Google, Apple, by them more raise their hand for Tesla than any other company in the world. Tesla will have zero problem finding the best talent in the world to work for them for quite a long time.
Cool story. Now poll the people who’ve actually worked for Musk’s companies. I’ve been pitched by Space-X to come build rockets for them.. the ice cream/coffee counter is 50% of the factory tour. 😂 Being told that Space-X is saving the human race by going to Mars is 45% of it. 😂😂 The other 5% is seeing their bumbling workforce in unsafe environments not wearing appropriate PPE. I’ve no doubt it impresses dumbass kids fresh out of college. They don’t know anything yet. They’ll take a pay cut because they buy the cult message.
Building someone else's poorly thought out ideas instead of inventing and innovating. We're doomed.
@@joshuahenry7482🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡
Not anymore mate - since they have now a CEO which is erratic - the best and brightest are somewhere else
@@joshuahenry7482 I don't know man , Tesla has innovated more than the whole car industry combined. Don't let the Elon hate make logical fallacies