Sighting in a Rifle with Open Sights
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- čas přidán 23. 09. 2022
- In this episode, we'll show our method for sighting in a rifle with open sights. Join us as we take a few shots with a Colt Lightning large frame rifle in preparation for this year's deer hunt.
Hi Mike! Enjoyed the video. I guess it seems funny for “vintage” shooters like us to have to explain the process for sighting in with fixed sights, but I’ve found; as I’m sure you have too; that many younger than us are not the rifleman we were raised by or raised to be. Looking forward to the next video!
Really enjoyed the video! I'd love to see a cleaning video as well. There are many cleaning videos that focus on muzzleloaders so it would be nice to see one on a BP cartridge rifle.
Really glad you're using a lightning for a hunt and I hope you video everything even butchering to see bullet performance. I for one would pay for the extra coverage as VT probably won't be happy. Thanks, can't wait.
My grandpa taught me to look at sighting in iron sights on a clock face.
imagine your sight picture as a straight line from the 6 and your target is the 12. The sight picture is a straight line. The front sight is the hand pivot point in the center of the clock face. Imagine the point of impact is at the 1 position on the clock. To keep a straight line on the clock, the rear sight is moved in the direction of the 7. If the point of impact is on the 11, the rear sight is moved toward the 5.
You can also use this analogy to adjust the front sight as well. Rear sight on the 6 position, point of impact on the 1. Move the front sight to the right to be in line with the imaginary line between the 6 and the 1. This will bring the line back to an imaginary line between the 7 and 1.
Mark - as usual, another great instructional video! I use a similar method of sighting in old iron sighted rifles. In fact, a recent Colt Express rifle I have been sighting in looks about identical to the one you were using except it is chambered in .40-60-260. With this rifle, like many of my old lever rifles with old bores, after I take that first shot, and I want to move the point of impact right or left, all I need to do is is take another shot. There's a 50% chance it will move in the direction I want and a 50% chance it will move further from the bullseye. I know you have previously done some shooting with this Express rifle. And you mentioned it has a nice bore. Hence, you know it groups fairly tightly. That is far from the case with many of the old rifles I shoot. I usually have very little confidence that the second shot I take will hit near the first. So, I always fire at least three-shot groups before I start any sight adjustments.
Hey Mark! Howdy from Gods most favorite state, Kentucky…! Thanks for the supreme content again. I just plain ol’ become giddy like a little child when I see a new episode. I haven’t found anyone else that delivers the quality content on the beautiful older examples of quality guns. Thanks!!
You're very welcome and thanks a bunch for the compliment. I'm sure glad you enjoy what we're doing.
The cartridge nomenclature reminds me of winchester taking sharps calibers like the 45 2 4/10” sharps straight and just renaming it based on powder capacity and a smaller bullet to feed in lever guns and to make it their own. Glad there’s more standardization today.
Definitely! Can you imagine what a mess it would be today if we had two different cartridges with the same name.
Great video 🙂👍☕
FORS:
Front opposite, Rear same
This has helped lots of folks remember point of impact shift
I think this is very important people because I have a friend that said his rifle shot had no matter how high he raised the back sight, so I reminded him when we were shooting at 1000 yards with a 3030 we had to stick a 30-30 cartridge under the back side to get it up high enough, then he swallowed kinda hard move the sight down to the lowest point shot it when it hit dead where he was aiming , he didn’t say anything for like 30 minutes, he was a crack shot with a gun and just never used anything but scopes
From my experience 5gr of bp in big bores is negligible until you are starting to compress the load pretty significantly. I would have to say your theory-about just being a marketing ploy is probably 100% accurate.
There's not even enough difference in powder volume to change your bullet weight enough either without going with a longer projectile or more compression and seating deeper if the bullet even would allow you to.
Really nice to see this old girl getting ready to go out and do what it was meant to do. I believe in preserving what we can but not letting them just sit in a safe. As gunsmiths I think we both know that with proper maintenance, a good bp load, and not shooting it just for the sake of burning ammo she'll go another 100yrs.
PSA for those of you who are afraid to take your antiques out. Guns aren't delicate tools, they need to have their legs stretched from time to time. Any damage or accident, sans a catastrophic failure, is fixable. When you do take your classics out, go over them each time and make sure nothing has loosened up, especially buttstock through bolts.
It only takes one or two heavy recoiling shots with a slightly loose bolt and you end up with a cracked or even split wrist.
That doesn't mean you need to gorilla it down as tight as you can turn it either, wood expands and contacts get it snug and then use your best judgment to give it just a little more rotation to get a solid clamping force.
I always tell people, you should be wiggle testing the stock everytime you get any 2 piece stocked gun out. Especially if the season's changed since the last outing.
Miniscule movement side to side, with moderate force can be acceptable and even preferable if you're going out on a winter hunt and the gun will be going in and out of the heat.
Besides that make sure it's got a light fresh coat of oil and make damn sure your load is right for what the gun was proofed for and only buy from a reputable manufacturer for your antiques.
Double loads, cartridges that received the wrong powder, and other mix-ups do happen in large plants with so-so qc measures and most older firearms are not going to survive those levels of over-pressure.
Some manufacturers will also take all their remaining powder from the bottom of the bins and combine the ones with very close burn rates to use it up and not mix it in when they refill the bins with fresh powder.
In modern arms, this isn't really a big concern, it just will perform a little different on paper or the chrono. Modern guns are proofed well above whatever theoretical peak this mixing might cause though. You put the same mutt cartridge in something that's right at edge of being unsafe already and things can go bad very quickly. It's not worth it to save a few bucks buying the cheapest or mid range and a lot of that stuff won't really be loaded to a pressure spec that won't wear out an old gun in a hurry and might not be safe to shoot safely from a 100yr old rifle, pistol, or shotgun at all.
Always enjoy your videos of vintage western firearms. I shoot SASS cowboy action competitions every weekend year round in North GA, put a lot of rounds through my guns and just really like shooting single action revolvers and lever rifles and SxS shotguns. It makes you appreciate those old guns even more.
I really enjoyed this video I can listen to you all day talking it’s very educational thank you
You're very welcome, Paul. Thanks for watching!
Thanks for the tip. Always enjoy your videos. Especially with a fresh cup of coffee. Now I need to get out and do some shooting of my own.
Great video I can’t wait too see your deer hunt with that Colt rifle
Nice to get out and shoot older iron. I haven't done any black powder, in fact don't shoot my Flatband 94 much as I don't want to wear the old girl out. Mostly shoot Mid and Long Range competition. Consistency is critical to accuracy and I get into discussion all the time with hunters that say it isn't as import in hunting as competition. There is some truth in that, in that it doesn't require the insanity that comp requires but it is just as important to have good consistent rounds and to use the exact same round in the hunt as you sight in with. Doesn't matter if it is black powder or smokeless.
Thanks very much for sharing.
In my experience, the first round with black powder out of a clean cold bore is almost always out of the group....most times high. Some barrels and loads don't settle down until several rounds have been fired and fouling evenly distributed. Black powder is most times also much more consistent on velocity extreme spreads than smokeless. It is really good powder for many applications.
There is also a phobia by many about using it due to potential cleaning issues. Black powder cleaning has been very overblown over the years. A few minutes and the job is done with nothing more than warm water and then a little oil to coat the bore after cleaning.
Another good video Mark.
I've done this a few times. It's a straight forward procedure AFTER you understand it. I've also found iron sights that didn't have or barely had adequate adjustment to zero correctly with a given load. Usually elevation issues. Had a 30-30 94 carbine that had plenty of adjustment for factory ammo, but with a full load of H335 and a 170 grain bullet it shot higher consistently with the rear elevator at the lowest notch.
To help keep this straight in your mind, remember this word. "FORS". It stands for " Front Opposite, Rear Same"... easy way to keep your sight adjustment process on track.
That's a neat old rifle, i like it alot.
Great Video Mark! I love watching your channel and all the neat old guns you get to shoot. I always learn something. Like the 45-85 in a Colt Lightning is the same as a 45-70 Government. I never knew that! I passed one up a few years back, thought I would have a heck of a time finding or making brass for it. keep up the good work. Yes, the next video would be great to watch on cleanup!
Great video as usual. Thanks for keeping them coming.
My Marlin 1881 Is Marked 45 Govt Love the old guns. I sure would like to see you do some vidios with the 1881 Marlins. Keep up with the great work. Love your vidios, Especially the ones on the Colt SAAs.
Thanks Ron! I really like those 1881 Marlins, but don't have one in my collection, so I'll have to wait until I can get my hands on one to shoot.
Excellent! Only other thing I can think of is to use a homemade target using a thick black line in a "frown" shape. I use a chisel point Sharpie to trace around 180° of a coffee cup. Longer distances need a heavier black line and a larger half-circle. Then you just nestle the top of the front bead up tight against the inside of the half-circle. Your eye can do it the same way every shot precisely and repeatedly.
Square front sights need square-shaped aimpoints. Thanks for the vid, awesome!
THANK YOU SIR FOR A GREAT RIDE
I very much enjoyed the video, keep them coming. Happy trails to you and yours.
Thanks a bunch, Lindell!
Another great video. I grew up hunting in the central Sierra's with my father and his buddies and they hunted using black powder rifles. Most shots in the timberline on deer trails or the edge of meadows were 100yards or less. My dads friend Chuck had a Marlin 444. Dad had a Shilo Sharps Big Timber in 45-110 using 500gr paper patch bullets. Bill had an original Win 1886 in 45-90. I could never afford those rifles so my choice was a Marlin 1895. I had the oddball new gun so I loaded smokeless with hard cast 300gr gas check bullets using Reloader 7 pushing 2,100 fps. Sometimes we hunted with our Hawkins 50cal rifles. All with iron sights. Nothing like a one kill shot with a large expanding hunk of lead. Seen guys hunt deer with 7mm mag and taking three shots because they just punch holes in deer that R-U-N-N-O-F-T. The Colt Lightning would be wonderful to have in 45-70. Good luck on your hunt.
I have always wanted a lighting but never saw one that was for sale? Of all the rifles I had my Winchester 1895 4570 was my sweet heart. Enjoyed your video!
Very interesting thank you for your fine work. Really enjoy the classics you show.
Thanks SGT!
Thanks for the share!!
Needed a cup of coffee to enjoy with the video.
Hope you enjoy your coffee and the video! 🙂
Great video, very informative 👍
Thanks Mark: seem like I'm still aiming a flat vertical hand over the barrel to visualize bullet path and line of sight ! 40 yrs of sighting iron sights , and it still requires train of thought. Good video! Keep um coming !👍
Haha! I still have to really think about it when I haven't sighted in open sights for a while, too.
i really enjoy your videos.......thanks for sharing
Well done as usual. I can confirm that a lead 405 grain 45-70 bullet will get the job done…..on a whitetail anyway. Used an 1886 SRC. Good luck with your hunt.
Congrats!
Excellent video. Good information. A follow up video after the hunt would be cool. God bless.
Beautiful old lightning 👍
Thanks a bunch, Graham! My wife has excellent taste - in guns. 😃
11:12 Got a curious visitor seeing what the noise is all about
Great catch! I didn't see that one when I was editing.
If you do end up trying to sell it once hunting season is over let's talk. You've got quite the collection.
Have a great hunt!
Fortunately, the seal between the cartridge and the chamber almost always isolates the fouling to the bore and keeps it out of the action. In many ways, its no more difficult than cleaning after shooting smokeless.
When I ran a police range my saying was “Franklin Delano Roosevelt’s Sister” = Front Different Rear Same
Good luck on your deer hunt look forward to seeing that video also that is a good shooting rifle I don’t think I could sell it if it were mine.
I use this acronym to remember. F.O.R.S (Front Opposite, Rear Same) the direction you want to move your shot group.
Great Tip!
I hope you show how you clean the rifle after firing black powder through it.
At around 11:12 minutes in there is a good sized deer (no antlers) coming down the hill just over his left shoulder. Of course there's a sump there and grass so probably lots of animals come around. JWC
Good Video, sadly shooting Iron sights well is becoming a lost art, My Dad started me shooting and Hunting with Irons from 6 years old, I didn't start shooting Optics till around 16 years old.
Needless to say I can hit well with either, but still love Shooting Iron sights, I have taken the same approach with My Daughter who can shoot both Irons and Optics equally well.
Can't wait to see you hunt that Old Rifle, I really loved the Winchester 1895 30-40 Krag Hunt Video you posted last season.
Keep up the great content, I look forward to your future Videos.
👍👍
Good hunting! Our season has just ended over here.
Where is it that you hunt?
@@thecinnabar8442 i am in South Africa
What I could have benefited from is a discussion of the placing of the front "bead" in the rear sight, and the usability of that for on the fly adjustments. Do shooters put the bead in the bottom of the rear notch, or at the top, and can that (perhaps significant) movement be used to raise or lower the point of impact with any confidence by those who know their rifles--or pistols? I know that my 7 1/2 inch colt clone in .357 when I was getting used to the shooting it at the range I put the very bottom of that big front sight (where it meets the barrel) in the notch aimed at the 500 yard Ram and was astonished to see a huge explosion of sand at the feet of the Ram and just about 10 inches to the right. It got me to thinking that, "well, maybe you could use a big pistol to protect your perimeter and if nothing else scare the Be-Jesus out of those who might want your food and ammo!
Note: when I was teaching myself to shoot--with books, videos, and range time--I was so confused by the counter intuitive nature of sight setting that I made charts so that I could actually see the geometry involved in moving the point of impact Left or Right. Of course others may be able to see it in their mind's eye, but I am old and dull and needed to see it on paper. And being a teacher I know that many if not most of my colleagues falsely assume that the students already know one or two of the steps that are involved in moving from ignorance to understanding and in the process, as teachers, prove themselves to be, shall we say, not completely mindful of just what they are doing.
And of course that is saying something that may not be obvious to many, but when amplified across the whole country might be a devastating blow to our youth. But then a thing that is never spoken of is the fact that education in America, especially Higher Education, is a complete fraud since one can not come to understand anything, much less "Higher" things, by just memorizing facts that one has not learned what to do with, eh?
Thanks for the video, and the good timing with the deer at 11:12. Did any of you ever notice at the beginning of the film "Shane" that before the mother was framed momentarily in the window of the cabin, Nature set it up so that the entrance of the Hero was framed in the antlers of the deer that the boy was "stalking?" I think the film artist put the mother in that window. But only God could frame that Stranger within the antlers of the deer with the top open to Heaven, eh? It says quite a bit about the relations between the sexes and what the needs of each might be. And it is very interesting that it was the boy and no one else who watched the Hero both come and go, both ride down and in, and ride out and up. It's a truly fine film and I have renamed it, "Shane: or the Teacher." It's very much worth revisiting with the whole family--or of course alone! JWC
My brother and mother were both teachers. Personally I would keep the sight picture the same and just aim low, medium and high on the target as archers do.
@@redtobertshateshandles: Well you didn't mention where exactly YOU keep your sight front sight in relation to the rear sight, but one might assume that a person puts the top of the post at the bottom of the rear notch. And that said, if one had a fairly tall front sight such as is found on the Model P, if one had a visible mark half way up the sight then one could experiment and measure the distances to see (of course with your particular bullet at its particular velocity) what the distance was if the notch was placed 1) where the post met the barrel, or 2) where the half way up mark was in the notch, and 3) where the top of the post was in the notch. And that would give you three known distances. And if you used the top of the notch (instead of the bottom) as your reference point for all three of the above, that would give you a total of 6 known distances with no guess-work using a fixed sight system. Now this system IS systematic and has some science in it though both you and I know that in most situations hold overs are all you need. But in a SHTF situation and if you have visible perimeters at 4, 5, 6, and 700 yards, it might be helpful to know just where to place your sights so as to stop some moronic Zombi at each of those distances, eh? And in any case it seems to me that it is foolish to not know where the bullet will land when 1) you put the top of the rear sight where the sight touches the barrel, etc. As I said, when I did this with the hottest 158 grain .357 bullet our of my 7 1/2" Model P, that little bullet made a pretty dramatic explosion in the dirt just at the feet of the 500 yard Ram! And for me that was an awakening because I knew that I could repeat it every time--provided I was using the same ammunition every time. And with practice one can of course do this with iron sights on a rifle as well.
As for your note on your parents being teachers, were you attempting to pick up what I said about bad teachers who assume that the student knows what he the teacher knows--in which case there would be no need for the teacher! Or in your case were your parents wise teachers who led you from the first steps right on up to where you with their help came to know what they knew? I hope it was the latter. I have been in schools all my life and I know for a fact that the majority of my colleagues are morons when it comes to understanding Human Nature and therefore being able to re-create it! My father was a builder and knew many practical things but never taught me one thing--a sad waste of knowledge--not to mention poor economics, eh? Ideally, if the father had a heart attack at 45, the teenage son could pick up and run the farm and handle also the economics of the whole enterprise. But that was not what happened in my case. On the other hand, that is no doubt part of the motivation behind the fact that I am a very very good teacher.
Take care. JWC
I have a pretty 1902 Colt Lightning small frame 22 with a very rare 26" octo barrel and the Colt pedigree paperwork. Sure would be nice to have you look at it with an educated eye.
You live in a beautiful area. What county is that? It would be nice to buy some land there before it turns into Idaho.
A pencil works good to mark a blued barrel.
Thanks for the info. This should apply to my model 94 in 30-30 of 1966 manufacture also. Need to ask about a recent acquisition of a Colt SAA manufactured in 1876. I have not shot it yet as I do not reload. Do I have to use black powder loads exclusively? Is there a very light smokeless bullets available commercially that I can shoot once in a while? Gun was brought up to mechanical working condition by a former Colt employee that is known in the SAA world. So far I only have the pleasure of listening to the 4 soft clicks of the hammer. would love to take it out to the range sometime without blowing it up.
Clean bore shot almost always high on my rifles. I use a wet rope from breach to muzzle to keep the fouling out of the action, would like to see how you clean and preserve those old beauties.
Fortunately, when shooting black powder cartridges, the cartridge seals to the chamber and almost always keeps the black powder fouling isolated to the bore and out of the action
Another great informative video - out in the field a hammer & brass punch can be quite a handful in trying to drift a dovetail - have you given any thought to acquiring a Wyoming Spring loaded sight drifter? Probably the most useful tool I own when playing with my lever guns - these are available from Buffalo Arms & make any sight adjustments a breeze - all the best.
I use the rule of FORS, Front Opposite, Rear Same
anyone else notice what looks like a deer at 11:20? in the tree line. also great video
just found a browning 1886..tryin to find best load for 300 gr h/p…im 70 yrs old so these open sights are how i started..so need to remind my 70 yr old eyes to focus..yeah right..
11:13 deer passes in background down the hill just to the right of your collar in the clearing
As always, a great video. I might be a bit off on this, but I thought that the 45-85 express indicated a load of 85 grains of black powder with an approximately 300 grain bullets as you stated in a 45-70 case, I've never been completely clear on that being so and have never seen anything to confirm that. I have an 1881 marlin and in reading about it ran across some vague information indicating that. I wish you well on your hunt and be safe.
Yes, the Marlin and Colts used a lighter bullet and that's how they were able to get more powder into the case. Sorry, I didn't go into more detail about that. As I mentioned in the intro, this large frame was designated 45-85-285
Great video Mike! Wishing you great success on your hunt with such a Classic rifle. A question about the .45-85, did it use the standard 500 grain, 405 grain, or lighter bullet?
HI Mike,
I just acquired a 1884 colt lightning Uberti replica (pretty accurate).
The questions I have in mind now, are:
- how to properly clean and maintain a colt lightning rifle?
- How to properly disassemble and reassemble a colt lightning rifle (quite useful when shooting black powder)?
I cannot find any real and good stuff on these two topics.
Would it be possible for you, to make and post such videos?
Thx
Keep bringing us your passion, expertise and this magic of the old west.
Yes, I have plans to make an assembly and disassembly episode next time I take a Colt Lightning apart. I wouldn't recommend completely disassembling a Colt Lightning as part of cleaning after each shooting session, even after shooting with black powder. The cases seal to the chamber and isolate nearly all residue to the bore. A complete takedown and cleaning is only needed on well-spaced occasions, depending upon how much it's fired. They can be quite problematic for those not accustomed to how they function and the geometry of the component parts.
@@thecinnabar8442 Thx a lot for your quick answer and advice. I’m so glad you plan to do such a video.
As a matter of fact, the reason why I’d like to disassemble mine, is because it’s a second hand rifle. Although it looks great and works fine, I can’t be 100% sure how well it’s been really maintained by the former owner. So, I’d just like to make a good in depth checkup at the beginning. The only pb I’ve noticed is, I sometimes have light strikes. May be it’s due, to too much oil in it, or even grease.
I’m quite used to disassemble Winchester rifles (even the browning ones), revolvers and pistols, although I really don’t do it too often (it’s not necessary, as you said).
But since this is my first lightning rifle, I’m not used to it and I’d like to benefit from your expertise before doing it.
Thank again.
Great video what did you do to get the rear elevator to stop moving under recoil I have the same issue with my Hawken I have to look into.
Do you have a video or some thoughts on breaking in a new barrel?
I’ve watched plenty of single shot black powder videos and those guys are cleaning their barrels after every shot. How are you able to shoot the Colt Lightning multiple times without cleaning and without affecting accuracy? Curious.
In most long-range black powder competitions, they take a "fouling shot" prior to shooting for score. The rifles will shoot a slightly different with a clean barrel than after there is some fouling in it. Of course, when hunting there isn't time to clean the bore between shots.
@@thecinnabar8442 Totally agree. I guess I thought you might be concerned about the corrosive effects the black powder would have on your original Lighting shooting multiple rounds without cleaning (or just swabbing the barrel) in between each shot. You know better than I.
Does the Colt Lighting rifle have any issues when carried in a scabbard compared to a lever action? Very interesting video.
I've not carried a Lightning in a scabbard, but I could see where one could accidently rack the slide while putting it in a scabbard if not careful. This large frame with a 30" barrel probably wouldn't make a good saddle gun.🙂
@@thecinnabar8442 that was what I was wondering if it could be racked like that, thank you.
Nice Tips Mark 😀😀😀😀👍🏼 I’m Very Curious How You Clean A Colt Lightning After Shooting Black Powder The Thought of Pitting and Rusting of a Beautiful Rifle Has Always Deterred Me From Using Black Powder in My Leverguns and Pump Action Shotguns That Are Not That Easy To Field Strip to Clean
The cartridges seal to the chamber and nearly always keep the black powder fouling isolated to the bore and out of the chamber. In many ways, it no more difficult than cleaning up after shooting black powder.
@@thecinnabar8442 Do You Use Boiling Hot Water and Run It Thru The Bore or Just Your Normal Smokeless Powder Hoppie #9 and A Bore Brush/Boresnake Followed By a Light Coat of Oil
@@chrischiampo7647 Personally, I use Balistol and water (mix 7/1) in a spray bottle. Some people use windex. Hoppe's makes a special version of the #9 for black powder, but I have not used it yet. I run 2-3 wet patches between loads, and the patch/brush at the end of the day.
Remove rear sight bend down slightly replace rear sight replace elevator....Don't try to bend with it on the barrel....You already knew that I'm sure....Lol....
I'd just build up the front sight with putty if required.
Why is there 4 marks in the barrel
New hat?
No, It's one I keep clean for the videos. The one I wear daily on the ranch is pretty sweat stained and grimy.
First
Man, you're right on top of it! You must have been stalking our page. 😉