Integrated circuit, MOSFET, processor decapsulation with fiber laser! Peek inside 👀 semiconductor

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  • čas přidán 25. 05. 2022
  • Here is the one without the music:
    👉 • ASMR IC decapsulation!...
    Enjoy!
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Komentáře • 498

  • @DjaniAgain
    @DjaniAgain  Před rokem +16

    Here is the video without music!
    czcams.com/video/sPK9VVOaaUI/video.html

    • @Blue.star1
      @Blue.star1 Před rokem +2

      Are they gold bond wires @7:36

    • @DjaniAgain
      @DjaniAgain  Před rokem

      Someone says, they are, but I'm not sure 🤔

    • @simonsmith2802
      @simonsmith2802 Před rokem +2

      @@DjaniAgain hi what laser did you use to do this to the ic's

    • @DjaniAgain
      @DjaniAgain  Před rokem

      It's so called Fiber laser or marking laser 👍

    • @simonsmith2802
      @simonsmith2802 Před rokem +2

      @@DjaniAgain thank you well because I'm a electronics repairs engineer if I get a eprom that I need to get inside I can with this tool

  • @Bramon83
    @Bramon83 Před rokem +55

    I’m still convinced all computer parts are just containers of magic.

    • @Calliber50
      @Calliber50 Před rokem +8

      It is magic. The vast majority of the people on this planet would not be able to figure out how this works even with the part in their hand. They could take it apart and still be left with more questions than answers. There's only a very small fraction of a percent of people who could. If we forget how fragile our systems are and how valuable lives are and decide to go for an all out war. This magic could die and take decades or more to bring back. This is just one component of the magic that makes our species flourish. Doesn't matter who you are, there's some rare piece of knowledge you hold, if you aren't around to share it, it could be gone.

    • @DjaniAgain
      @DjaniAgain  Před rokem

      👏👏👏
      @Calliber50, you are totally right!

    • @Boycott_Wendys
      @Boycott_Wendys Před rokem +1

      It comes from the aliens 🛸

    • @Gerdion
      @Gerdion Před rokem

      The blue smoke is the secret. If it gets out, it stops working. Can confirm from personal experience.

    • @ianhosier4042
      @ianhosier4042 Před rokem

      They are containers of magic smoke as they stop working when it is released

  • @drsamuelk
    @drsamuelk Před rokem +7

    My whole childhood unfolded before my eyes. Thankyou.

    • @DjaniAgain
      @DjaniAgain  Před rokem

      I'm so glad you like it! ✌️

    • @drsamuelk
      @drsamuelk Před rokem +1

      As a kid, I would laboriously file off burnt IC's and 3 pin transistors to see what the hell is inside one. Your laser is amazing.

    • @DjaniAgain
      @DjaniAgain  Před rokem

      ❤️

  • @alvinnorin8820
    @alvinnorin8820 Před rokem +8

    4:50 It's amazing how accurate lightsaber sounds and visuals are, or maybe the other way around. 😂

    • @DjaniAgain
      @DjaniAgain  Před rokem +1

      😁😁😁
      May the force be with you!

  • @4dirt2racer0
    @4dirt2racer0 Před rokem +7

    thiss one of the coolest Fn videos.... i have no idea how it doesnt genuinely have literally millions of views

  • @TMS5100
    @TMS5100 Před rokem +51

    You can see the structure but sadly the IC is destroyed. For real decapping, nitric or sulfuric acid is used to keep the die intact.

    • @DjaniAgain
      @DjaniAgain  Před rokem +20

      You are right, this is just a fun experiment. 👍

    • @dominikschutz6300
      @dominikschutz6300 Před rokem +8

      But you can reduce the epoxy layer :)

    • @Bedfford
      @Bedfford Před rokem +13

      yeah you are rigth, but this is a fine method can use to reduce the thickness of the epoxy layer, then you can use the acid to expose the die.

    • @Clancydaenlightened
      @Clancydaenlightened Před rokem +2

      need a different type of laser

    • @DjaniAgain
      @DjaniAgain  Před rokem +1

      ✌️

  • @ErCanEverything
    @ErCanEverything Před 2 lety +13

    Very cool video Brother😲👏
    Thanks for sharing🤝
    With this laser it is possible to scrape precisely and to restore a defective track in encapsulated boards.

    • @DjaniAgain
      @DjaniAgain  Před 2 lety +2

      May be possible. I saw videos of people repairing SD cards!
      When first saw these types videos on CZcams I was shocked, how easy is to decapsulate IC's. They are very.

  • @mochamadharso6545
    @mochamadharso6545 Před rokem +9

    wow, that's the contents of the inside. It's been almost 30 years, so the technician just found out about the inside of the IC

  • @thehobe2111
    @thehobe2111 Před rokem +44

    Nice decapsulation! I worked in IC design for over 30 years and had not seen this process.

    • @DjaniAgain
      @DjaniAgain  Před rokem +13

      Wow, thats a lot of experience 👏

    • @The_Koolaid_Control
      @The_Koolaid_Control Před rokem

      I wonder how the design process works.

    • @AnalogDude_
      @AnalogDude_ Před rokem +3

      they used to do that with plain simple roll "masking" tape on a large scale and with photographic tricks reduce the size to ultra small.

    • @The_Koolaid_Control
      @The_Koolaid_Control Před rokem +1

      @@AnalogDude_ so they cut stensils out of the tape?

    • @AnalogDude_
      @AnalogDude_ Před rokem +2

      @@The_Koolaid_Control no they used the tape to make the tracks and transistors & fets.
      Just as making a PCB, they use masks and light sensitive solutions to etch away pieces and grow other type of crystal there (P/N junctions) or deposit metal to make conductors.
      check this channel: Asianometry, has "old" skool footage showing how it's or was done.
      A person hanging from the ceiling working a "giant" semi conductor using a roll of masking tape, like 100.000x bigger in it's size
      it's not really magic, just the scale where it's done is awesome, imagine every one having a main frame at home, lol.

  • @puppyloves4573
    @puppyloves4573 Před rokem +5

    I instantly smelled burning electronics……
    Thank you so much for sharing. It reminded me of using polishing compound on glass to get heat sinks and cpu flatter.

    • @DjaniAgain
      @DjaniAgain  Před rokem

      I'm so glad you like it! Greetings! ✌️

  • @thetruthexperiment
    @thetruthexperiment Před rokem +4

    Wow, lasers actually sound like the movies finally.

  • @killsnake777
    @killsnake777 Před rokem +2

    I don’t know why it so satisfying! But I like this stuff!

  • @eeledahc
    @eeledahc Před rokem +4

    I love the sound it makes.

    • @DjaniAgain
      @DjaniAgain  Před rokem +1

      Check the description of the video, there is a link to a video with no music ✌️

  • @ermalkoci1361
    @ermalkoci1361 Před rokem +5

    So cool! Always wondered how they're on the inside

    • @DjaniAgain
      @DjaniAgain  Před rokem +1

      I hope thos helps a little bit! 😊

  • @bill5206
    @bill5206 Před rokem +2

    All I can say is WOW! Great Video!!!

  • @rollbot
    @rollbot Před rokem +2

    beautiful video on this process ! love it

  • @thorr3095
    @thorr3095 Před rokem +1

    I always wonder about this many years back and thank you for share this , awesome 👍

  • @ivailotodorov89
    @ivailotodorov89 Před 2 lety +7

    Very interesting 👌!

  • @DrakkarCalethiel
    @DrakkarCalethiel Před rokem +19

    Was really surprised how big that die inside that power MOSFET was. I would have guessed it only 75% as large.

    • @DjaniAgain
      @DjaniAgain  Před rokem +2

      I did with bigger one, will see in futere how big the die is! ✌️

    • @jnharton
      @jnharton Před rokem +2

      Mostly speculation, but perhaps a larger die affords more surface area to radiate heat from?

    • @NatasPvPMontagesz
      @NatasPvPMontagesz Před rokem +5

      @@jnharton not only that but larger current can flow due to lower resistance, just like a larger wire

    • @fightington
      @fightington Před 10 měsíci +1

      ​@@DjaniAgainomg do more!!!!!!!!!!! this is the coolest thing ever!!!!

    • @fightington
      @fightington Před 10 měsíci +1

      ​@@DjaniAgain do you know that old components can contain BeO?

  • @buckstarchaser2376
    @buckstarchaser2376 Před rokem +2

    Good goin' Purcel. You just greased yourself some chips.

  • @Mosfet510
    @Mosfet510 Před rokem +2

    Nicely done!

  • @ligarubezniece3338
    @ligarubezniece3338 Před rokem +3

    SUPER NICE LASER + CHECK

  • @KernsJW
    @KernsJW Před rokem +2

    That's awesome! Mind blowed

  • @konsul2006
    @konsul2006 Před rokem +2

    Thank you so much for sharing.

  • @jamesharris8951
    @jamesharris8951 Před rokem +5

    Nice Decap. My suspicion is that the laser decap will damage the IC, making FA difficult to do at the very least. Still physical properties (Wire, ball bond integrity) should be visible.

    • @DjaniAgain
      @DjaniAgain  Před rokem +1

      Oh yes my friend, it damages the silicon itself and everything on his path.
      When combined with traditional methods like acid it can be useful!
      Although I use the word Decapsulation, it may not be the best choice 😁

  • @stanleydsouza6723
    @stanleydsouza6723 Před rokem +2

    May God Almighty protect, keep all these beautiful people, Scientists Scholars, researchers creators of so many innovations from others and evils on this blessed Planet Earth 🌏

  • @plageran
    @plageran Před rokem +2

    explains how they got rid of the labels, thanks dude

    • @DjaniAgain
      @DjaniAgain  Před rokem +1

      And its very easy as you saw ✌️

    • @plageran
      @plageran Před rokem +1

      @@DjaniAgain i know someone stated that they use sand paper also. it can get frustrating to reverse engineer at times

    • @DjaniAgain
      @DjaniAgain  Před rokem

      ✌️
      I did sanding on an optocoupler, sometimes there is no other choice!

  • @jozefnovak7750
    @jozefnovak7750 Před rokem +2

    Super! Thank you very much!

  • @user-jo8es1ys2w
    @user-jo8es1ys2w Před rokem +1

    최고입니다. 이렇게 내부가 나타날 줄 몰랐습니다

  • @carademarlene9556
    @carademarlene9556 Před rokem +1

    Great job.

  • @user-hj1uh1zo5z
    @user-hj1uh1zo5z Před rokem +2

    После этого видео я понял как это работает, теперь я буду самым крутым электронщиком! Спасибо!

    • @DjaniAgain
      @DjaniAgain  Před rokem

      🤔🤷👌
      Check this:
      czcams.com/video/I0g5G0dm9KI/video.html

  • @tw19801113
    @tw19801113 Před rokem +2

    I guess the wires in those chips are pure gold

    • @DjaniAgain
      @DjaniAgain  Před rokem

      They look like gold, but I'm not sure 🤔

  • @robtom4367
    @robtom4367 Před rokem +1

    Super video thk y so much.

  • @FixitEasyDIY
    @FixitEasyDIY Před 2 lety +11

    Не бях виждал такова чудо. Супер е!

    • @DjaniAgain
      @DjaniAgain  Před 2 lety +2

      Благодаря! 👍👍👍

  • @davidmismomismo
    @davidmismomismo Před rokem +1

    Gran vídeo se abrió el misterio de esas cápsulas negras para abrir varias preguntas más, Gracias...

  • @vorperaxeses3187
    @vorperaxeses3187 Před rokem +1

    Love your videos mate, I wish that the deconstruction was to replicate some of the chips like the custom Amiga chips

  • @user-bf6bt9vi5h
    @user-bf6bt9vi5h Před rokem

    Awesome²‼️

  • @AmixLiark
    @AmixLiark Před rokem +2

    The resistor next to that first ic 🫣

    • @DjaniAgain
      @DjaniAgain  Před rokem

      Couldn't resist the charm of the laser 😅😂🤣

  • @dantosrock43
    @dantosrock43 Před rokem

    Artistic solution

  • @Tyranosaurus_Xer
    @Tyranosaurus_Xer Před rokem +2

    And those IC price just looooooooow, how incredible mass production are

  • @THISisBoSS007
    @THISisBoSS007 Před rokem +8

    This would work perfectly for documenting multilayered pcb. Would love so see something like this.

    • @DjaniAgain
      @DjaniAgain  Před rokem +2

      I'm not sure if it would peel layers 🤔

    • @africanelectron751
      @africanelectron751 Před rokem +3

      X ray would be better at that along with software processing.

    • @TheMrTape
      @TheMrTape Před rokem +1

      Check out Zeptobars.

  • @adrianosalesoliveiraadrian4662

    Video Impressionante a laser...muito bom

  • @weerobot
    @weerobot Před rokem +1

    Very Cool

  • @andreicheptea8020
    @andreicheptea8020 Před rokem +1

    Nice, whoah

  • @IowaMan
    @IowaMan Před rokem +2

    love these laser videos

    • @DjaniAgain
      @DjaniAgain  Před rokem +2

      I have plans to upload more, and different IC videos

    • @IowaMan
      @IowaMan Před rokem +1

      @@DjaniAgain i'll watch them all

  • @curtisnewton895
    @curtisnewton895 Před rokem +1

    omg this is so cool

  • @transmescars
    @transmescars Před rokem +2

    Bravo j'avais pas pensé à faire cela avec un laser que je suppose au co2 vu la puissance

    • @DjaniAgain
      @DjaniAgain  Před rokem

      Yes! I also have access to CO2 laser but, i think it's not precise like Fiber laser, also I'm not sure if it will interact with IC chips material. 🤔

  • @104d_3rr0r_vince
    @104d_3rr0r_vince Před rokem +1

    Hypnotic

  • @Bruno-oj3zb
    @Bruno-oj3zb Před rokem +2

    WOW, you could do that to an op amp, ( maybe sett the laser power not so much so it only "destroys" the plastic not the metal too? ) then epoxy it and make it a unique look , and it still working.
    0:33 looks like it would still work i think.

    • @DjaniAgain
      @DjaniAgain  Před rokem

      Your idea is good, but the laser to reach so deep needs power, and by the time it reaches the crystal, it has already destroyed it. 😢
      So in 0:33 chip is not working anymore 😓
      Maybe it is possible with acids, but in my country is a bit hard to get these kind of stuff.

  • @bangarre8391
    @bangarre8391 Před rokem +1

    We need video from macro lens... Thats must be amazing..

  • @professorquack
    @professorquack Před rokem +1

    That looks like a scifi movie

  • @diamonddan7086
    @diamonddan7086 Před rokem +2

    iv been eating imitation crab since i was like 2 and im 34 now. i just recently looked up what it has in it as for nutriance! it has a non-metal semiconductor compond in it!!!

  • @easyfrp5699
    @easyfrp5699 Před rokem +2

    Great thanks ☺️

  • @exabyte2402
    @exabyte2402 Před rokem +1

    0:06 Terminator skull!

  • @jamesbonner692
    @jamesbonner692 Před rokem +1

    This is the first step to getting the magic blue smoke back into the chip.

  • @dcocz3908
    @dcocz3908 Před rokem +1

    Some of the chips, amazing, packaging must be a costly part of making with all those little wires

  • @pedrocabr6242
    @pedrocabr6242 Před rokem +2

    cara simplesmente incrível

  • @jackflash6377
    @jackflash6377 Před rokem +2

    I would drop the power down and defocus the laser to create a larger dot that would melt the plastic but not damage the metal or silicon.
    I'll give that a try later.

    • @DjaniAgain
      @DjaniAgain  Před rokem +1

      Actually this sounds good, i have to try it sometime 🤔
      Thank you for the idea my friend! ✌️

  • @user-zg3nb1mk5b
    @user-zg3nb1mk5b Před rokem +1

    The wires are all 24 carat pure gold

  • @infatum9
    @infatum9 Před rokem +1

    Imagined for a moment, they cut stone like this in Ancient Egypt. Laser precision.

    • @DjaniAgain
      @DjaniAgain  Před rokem

      ✌️

    • @DjaniAgain
      @DjaniAgain  Před rokem +1

      According to some conspiracy theories, they cut by aliens and they maybe used lazers 🤔

  • @tonymunasinghe8073
    @tonymunasinghe8073 Před 5 měsíci +1

    Thanks

  • @adservicechannel
    @adservicechannel Před rokem +1

    wow👍

  • @Centar1964
    @Centar1964 Před rokem +2

    WOW!

  • @THEPUNISHER2024
    @THEPUNISHER2024 Před rokem +2

    amazing!

  • @joshuaplank883
    @joshuaplank883 Před rokem +9

    That is awesome to watch. Did you ever check the state of the bond wire in a microscope to see how well it stayed together?

  • @floorskin1
    @floorskin1 Před rokem +2

    That was so cool.

  • @Cornz38
    @Cornz38 Před rokem +2

    SOund effect at 07:50 ish reminds me SO much of a ZX-Spectrum game intro....

  • @Mr_Lambda
    @Mr_Lambda Před rokem +1

    this might be a great method to make sure that highly sensible data gets premanently erased whenever you decide to throw away your old smartphone. same for sd cards and thumbdrives

    • @DjaniAgain
      @DjaniAgain  Před rokem

      You are right my friend, this could be a standart practice. All the information literally evaporates. 😅

  • @user-eh8gs2hd8d
    @user-eh8gs2hd8d Před rokem +1

    SUPER

  • @markb1911
    @markb1911 Před rokem +1

    Is that sound being recorded from the from the interaction of the bream with the material, or is it from the control electronics driving the laser? Or all?
    It’s a unique menacing sound, really cool.

    • @DjaniAgain
      @DjaniAgain  Před rokem

      Control electronics produce sound, but it can't be hear here. Also the constant noise in the background is coming from cooling fans. But this awesome alien or digital sound all is coming from the material. The rapid expansion of lasered material, creating this.
      And you are right my friend, it's menacing! ✌️

  • @Cineenvenordquist
    @Cineenvenordquist Před rokem +2

    Hey you should run compressed air across the work and into a filter so you don't have so much loose particles ready to breathe in or ingest through skin. I like how you try to view with better magnification later, about 10x more oughtta do it...or fancier illumination, too.
    Capacitors should be neat to cut into also, maybe? All kinds? Maybe inkjet integrated jets would take a gradient cut?

  • @kuzukinoko
    @kuzukinoko Před rokem +2

    シリコンの半導体は本体はめちゃくちゃ小さくて、それのカバーや端子類が大きいだけってことか。
    すごいな、全然知らなかった。

    • @DjaniAgain
      @DjaniAgain  Před rokem

      Believe me, I'm also amazed how such a small thing can bear such a big load 🤔

  • @ronivansilva6447
    @ronivansilva6447 Před rokem +5

    Doing this are you able to put into a microescope and do reverse Engineering into some old chips? Or this fries the integrated circuit?
    Amazing video btw!!

    • @DjaniAgain
      @DjaniAgain  Před rokem +3

      This fries chip, atleast i did 😅
      But on the other hand if you do this carefully and under microscope I am sure that results would be much better compared to mine. And you can do some reverse engineering.

  • @emrdeko6824
    @emrdeko6824 Před rokem +3

    harika teşekkürler

    • @DjaniAgain
      @DjaniAgain  Před rokem +1

      Kanalıma hoşgeldiniz!
      Videoyu beğenmenize sevindim!
      Devami gelecek ileride.

  • @FijiLaw
    @FijiLaw Před rokem +1

    Thats a big mosfet

  • @fredrickrari9338
    @fredrickrari9338 Před rokem +1

    That makes me curious how all that was made to begin with

  • @jayc2469
    @jayc2469 Před rokem +1

    C1 and C2 Capacitors look like they were vaporized too 😆

  • @r.t.8650
    @r.t.8650 Před rokem +1

    Great

  • @explodingonc2782
    @explodingonc2782 Před rokem +1

    Doubt how practical this process really is... The silicon seems to be completely destroyed, and there isn't too much left to peek inside...

    • @DjaniAgain
      @DjaniAgain  Před rokem

      Yes, you are right. This is my first attempt, in future I will try to keep more of the chip 😊

  • @chevy5Gen
    @chevy5Gen Před rokem +1

    wow wow

  • @Dinco422
    @Dinco422 Před rokem +2

    lol... don't let Daft Punk hear that sound 🤣🤣

  • @msylvain59
    @msylvain59 Před rokem +1

    Is there some affordable and compact chinese laser machine I can order to do the same thing, or does it require over expensive industrial grade laser ?

    • @DjaniAgain
      @DjaniAgain  Před rokem

      This is not an industrial one, atleast for me. Here in my country 20W fiber laser is about 4000 USD.
      This is a chinese machine too.
      Maybe there is some models. Search for fiber laser!

  • @gta5onlineshorts
    @gta5onlineshorts Před rokem

    very well

  • @Mario-ye9pt
    @Mario-ye9pt Před rokem +2

    Incrível.

  • @hatceosman8069
    @hatceosman8069 Před 2 lety +2

    🤩🤩🤩

  • @xaruto0551
    @xaruto0551 Před rokem +1

    When deliding comes to the Extremes

  • @RetroJack
    @RetroJack Před rokem +1

    This would be so much more interesting if the chip itself wasn't reduced to a featureless grey slab.

    • @DjaniAgain
      @DjaniAgain  Před rokem

      Yes, you are totally right, but this was my first attempt.
      Check this out: czcams.com/video/zhZEi7bOAjY/video.html

  • @dindi159
    @dindi159 Před rokem

    Oh, bagus laser nya, coba ic jrc4558, ic lm324 transistor Toshiba

  • @ovalwingnut
    @ovalwingnut Před rokem +1

    All the while it's in place. Cleary advanced alien technology (AAT)

  • @krasimirkrastev287
    @krasimirkrastev287 Před 2 lety +1

    👏

  • @marvelstudios3595
    @marvelstudios3595 Před měsícem +1

    👍 👍 good

  • @rhalfik
    @rhalfik Před rokem +1

    You can make jewellery out of these.

    • @DjaniAgain
      @DjaniAgain  Před rokem

      🤔 This is an idea! 👍

    • @rhalfik
      @rhalfik Před rokem +1

      @@DjaniAgain My friend makes jewellery out of entire pcb sections, but you have better looking parts with the golden wires and all.

    • @DjaniAgain
      @DjaniAgain  Před rokem

      Share some link to his arts, so i may have some inspiration 😊

  • @spicyeddie
    @spicyeddie Před rokem +4

    This is awesome. The fiber laser with rotating mirror ?

    • @DjaniAgain
      @DjaniAgain  Před rokem +2

      Yes, exacly! Fiber laser with mirror 👍

    • @spicyeddie
      @spicyeddie Před rokem +1

      @@DjaniAgain that’s cool.

  • @4dirt2racer0
    @4dirt2racer0 Před rokem +3

    what machine did u use?? or at least what kind of laser is it??

    • @DjaniAgain
      @DjaniAgain  Před rokem

      It's known as Fiber laser or marking laser

  • @NikolaNikola69
    @NikolaNikola69 Před rokem

    👍👍

  • @raymondzhao9557
    @raymondzhao9557 Před rokem +1

    coool

  • @sempiternal_futility
    @sempiternal_futility Před rokem +1

    really cool
    just hope that either that stuff was already broken or you're rich, otherwise that was expensive as hell lol

    • @DjaniAgain
      @DjaniAgain  Před rokem

      These are from old power supply! I hope you enjoy watching! ✌️

    • @sempiternal_futility
      @sempiternal_futility Před rokem

      @@DjaniAgain yeah that was very fun to watch

  • @AnalogDude_
    @AnalogDude_ Před rokem +2

    That's extremely cool!
    You wonder how they manage to get the bonding wires done.

    • @oskimac
      @oskimac Před rokem +1

      actually: czcams.com/video/mvZ1dJuvenw/video.html&ab_channel=SamZeloof
      these guy is doyng chips al home, insane

    • @AnalogDude_
      @AnalogDude_ Před rokem +2

      @@oskimac Yeah, saw that, he has a manual bonding machine, but still i would like to see both end of the wire, how it's cut, welded. pretty thing wire.

    • @DjaniAgain
      @DjaniAgain  Před rokem

      Thanks for the link! Really cool ✌️

    • @oskimac
      @oskimac Před rokem

      @@AnalogDude_ yes. I don't remember if is in this video or another. But he shows the entire process. And how dificult isnto thread the thin gold wire along the machine

  • @omsingharjit
    @omsingharjit Před rokem +1

    I stopped at last last layer because It should be shiny .

  • @ivanenko8762
    @ivanenko8762 Před 6 měsíci +1

    super, what parametr do you use? I think that the duration is about 14 ns, but what is the speed and frequency?What is the filling density?

    • @DjaniAgain
      @DjaniAgain  Před 6 měsíci +1

      I'm glad you liked it!
      Firstly I used 50W Fiber laser with JPT source.
      Settings were generic
      Speed 1300
      Power 50-80%
      Frequency 30kHz
      Line distance 0.031
      Laser is not Mopa so I don't know what the laser pulse length is 😒