Choosing the Best Zero Distance
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- čas přidán 24. 08. 2022
- We often get asked about zero distance, but with the rise of risers, understanding how optic height alters you holds is crucial. Joe from Bruiser Industries helps us choose the best zero distance for our application.
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Joe is just awesome man. Dude is genuine and as real as it gets. Always willing to offer his expertise.
I’m so glad I stumbled upon this channel. Great stuff
Great content as always. I started with a 1.93 so it took some getting used to when I used my friends setup that was not as high. Hold overs are very important and this video helped put some of those peices together in my head. Loving that Type A, almost wish I went with that color, can’t wait to hear your take on it.
Great when people with the knowledge share. Thanks for facilitating this.
Good info thanks for bringing it!
Used 100 yard zero on duty rifles to hunting rifles
With any zero, understand it and know your holds
Great simple and short explanation.
Always appreciate you sharing your knowledge and your videos Jim, very informative. I noticed the BG Defense pistol. Any plans on an upcoming review of BG Defense?
Always impressed with the info this page is putting out. Here's my take on how I have my zero's setup after decades doing this.
first you owe it to yourself to get a ballistic calculator for rough data and a chrono. Seriously. Without one, just zero at 100 and stop asking.
Ok next is MPBR now for me I dont care what that number is I care about my hit radius. I want to say be able to center hold and hit a 6" circle (human head or deer vitals zone) for as far as I can. Chrono and calculator tell me that my round from my barrel puts my MPBR at 257. So my max ord is 2.9" at 130yds. And I fall out of my 6" circle with a center hold at 257. NOW here's the fun part from here I can start working some fun go fast math (this gun is a semi precision 12.5 recce)
So we know I drop out of my 6" circle at 257, and I can assume I hold top of target now out to say 300 ish for quick hits.
with my chrono and calculator, I break ranges into blocks and I open my hit zone to a more torso sized box like 12". Looks like this 3-400, 4-500, 5-600, 6-700.
I do the math and I'll use mils since that's what I work in. for example, my 4-500 section works out like this. -1.9 mils at 400 and -3.3 at 500. Average there is 2.6 mils. So if I have an engagement (I can dial or hold) 2.6 mils and this will move me back into a center of target area for 12" at the 4-500 range. I do this for all the blocks. Target presents at 410 I hold 2.6 center. Target at 480 I hold 2.6 center and adjust from there. My new quick holds are 3-400 = 1.75mills, 4-500 = 2.6, 5-600 = 4.1, 6-700 = 8.
Now, there are some limitations. For example my round from 4-500 is traversing nearly 30 vertical Inches. So If I know exact range, I can hold high or low to increase first round hit on my 12" plate. if not worst case I'm high or low, a possible 10" with a center hold. From 5-600 it's more. And 6-700 is going transonic anyway.
So I have my real drops from 5-700 in 50m increments on the side of my scope. So ideally I use MPBR 0-300 move to my quick adjust MPBR out to 500 and at 500 I should have more than enough time to grab a correct measurement and dial or hold.
My #1 advantage for the 100yd zero is all holds will be over no under.
Only until 100, changes past that distance
@@senorFrog2032 for 99% of rifles out there, holds will also be over past 100 yards.
@@wallace9045 sorry, you are correct. Read the comment incorrectly on my part
@@senorFrog2032 thinking about the 50/200ish zero.
With a 25yd zero I am between 3" and 9" high out to 250 and dead on and 275. 30" low at 400. Pretty easy combat zero.
Something else to consider is different scopes (LPVO's) call for different zero distances based on the reticle design to maintain correct holds at distance. For example, my Steiner P4xi reticle is calibrated for a 50yd zero at max magnification, whereas my SIG Tango6T calls for a 100 yard zero throughout the magnification range. Obviously a simple red dot or holographic sight is different. I'm getting a little older now, so I still zero those at 50 yds. (Easier to zero without magnification) I like the POA/POI to be at 50 and 200 yards anyway, as most self defense situations will most certainly be within 200 yds. I know if it's within 200 yards, just aim at target and shoot, without worrying too much about holding higher or lower.
I use a 30-06 with base mounts on my scope 150 grain bullet 0 at 25 yards inch and a half high at 100 back on it 280!! That's about the longest shot I taking in my area, has worked pretty good since 1973!! AR-15 with a carrying handle three by nine scope on the carrying handle zeroed at 25 I was almost off the target dead straight over the X!!! That's when I learned about the height of the scope on the barrel or on the receiver!!! Nothing like personal stupid experience. So you learn pretty quick it changes from rifle to rifle and whatever weight bullets you use!! I did like your illustration explaining it !!!
I use a Eotech EXPS on a BoBro rail riser and with a 50yrd zero, on my 12.5”. I’m stacking rounds on a 8” plate at 300yrds only aiming 6-8” high…… had to aim well over a foot before adding the riser. Was very surprised when I started hitting the bottom edge when aiming at the top of the plate. Definitely bought in to this concept now
Just DMd Brusier to try to get some info that goes a bit advanced outside this video but holy shit this video just made learn something wayyyyyyyy new
I've got dots zeroed at 25 and 50, Andy 308 is zeroed at 100 with an 1x8 lvpo, different applications for different guns
My go to is a 36 yard zero. From a few yards out to 250 yards you can hold on the same point of aim and still be within six inches
Barrel length and optic height matters here folks, 36y works for some cases and is worse for others. I think for example the Unity red dot mounts have a 3.47” HOB and the 36y zero is wack for them, you’ll be high at 200. If I recall correctly 57y works great as a zero for that? So uh yeah your setup matters
What’s your optic height over bore?
@@TheVinceZampella Yup, it’s hard to explain this to a lot of people. I’m 6’4” with a long neck so everything I own has Unity risers or Unity LPVO mount. Long story short - chose your round and HOB and plug them into a BC, then chose the zero that gives you a max ord of 2.5-3” and zero at that. Done
Edit - And for Christ sake, know your god damn hold overs for 7yds and in CQB
@@TheVinceZampella huge fan of your work vince lol
Awesome content
Appreciate the support!
i rock 100 yd with hunting rifles....anything else is always 36 yards....will put effective shots on a torso sized target out to 400 yards....no other zero has a tighter hold over or under spread...
I’m much the same but 36 for “tactical” and 200 for hunting. I work too hard to get shots at critters to trust the math, so I shoot in all my zeros at all of my hunting ranges.
@@Loganthehunter11 lol yea ive never tried the 50/200 for hunting but im out east so the farthest youll shoot out in the woods is a couple hundred yards. ive gotten pretty solid with the 36 and 100 yard zero. at least comfortable out to 300/350
Great stuff
Thanks!
All personal prefrence folks!
As long as you can make your hits!
Content and application matter
Knowing your holds from arms length out to distance is the ish
Thank you.
All my red dots are 50yd and scopes at 100yds. My astigmatism doesn't allow me to aim well past 200. Even with a magnifier I'm not going past 300 on my short bois. Anything with a scope on it is midrange for me (I can rarely shoot past 300). But for the times I can, 100yd zero is easiest for me to deal with. 2 zeros on one rifle hasn't been an issue so far.
*important note on height over bore*
The proper way to measure your bore axis offset (height over center line of bore) is to measure from as close to the center point of your barrel to the center of your optic as possible. Most cantilever scope mounts on an AR leave you pretty close to +2.5" above bore. On average, mounting a dot over a magnified optic gives your dot a +4.5" height over bore. A tenth of an inch isn't really going to throw off your zero all that much, but a quarter inch, or even half an inch can put you off target if you're trying to accomplish something very specific. The easiest way to measure this on an AR is from the center of your handguard to the center of the objective lens on your scope. You can measure it from the bottom of the ejection port to the center of the tube on your optic and get close enough, though.
Depends heavily on your height over centerline of bore, velocity and, depending on what distances you're shooting for, your projectile weight/BC.
My go to rifle is a 20" 5.56 1-8 twist with a PA 4-14x44 w/ HUD DMR reticle. I'm zeroed for a quarter inch high at 100 per the reticle recommendation for m193 at that velocity. My secondary optic is a top mounted dot, and I run a 70 yard zero on that. For m193, that gives me a pretty tight zero out to 300. -2.7" at 25, +2.7" at 175, and -2.2" at 300, roughly.
Run your height over bore and projectile data through a ballistic calculator, and play with different zeroes to see what works best for you. In some cases, a 25 yard zero, a 50 yard zero or even a 100 yard zero may be best.
I do my best to keep the 0-300 trajectories as close to the same as possible across all my rifles. Sometimes that just doesn't work out, though. My 10.5" runs a 50 yard zero, because backing it up to 36 gives me way too much of a spread at the distances that are important to me on that rifle. (0-100 primarily, with consideration out to 200)
Basically, it depends on you and what you want to do with what you're working with.
Haven’t watched vid yet but you always have the coolest caps! I tried to find that Skoal bandit from some two six defense or something like that but couldn’t find them. Do you know where I could?
26 defense tell them I sent you
2 6 defense
Sure glad I got a beginners explanation on what a zero is. That’s two minutes I wish I had back.
When are you putting a video out on that Type-A?
What distance do you recommend for a backup, 45° offset red dot? 25yd? 50yd?
Whether it’s 25/300, 50/200 or 100 yard zero as long as you train at a variety of ranges and know your holds you’re good. I’m stupid so I just do cqb guns 50/200 and long range guns 100.
Are you running that canted rmr because the eotech battery life ?
Hey Jimmy, what offset mount is that? Looks like Unity but I thought that one only worked with the LVPO one and not the Eotech riser.
You have to trim it to make it fit the eotech
What's the rise name where you can put magnifier and optic together. At the same height
Where I stay they don’t have outdoor ranges so what would be best between 25,36, or 50
J nailed it
What’s the best zero for a Ak 762x39mm; with a 1x6 LPVO?
That Dallas hat come in red and black?
I have discovered that, for my 5.56 AR, the "36 yd zero" provides the least amount of error between 25 and 300-ish yds, with my intended "combat targets" being 200 and in, fwiw
How did I achieve the 36 yd zero? If you're putting your rounds one to 1&1/2 inches above the 50 yd target, you're pretty much there
With a 36yd zero and 55gr m193, 16"bbl and 1:7, Eotech XPS 3-0 we see printing of about 6-8" high at 100. Everything we see shows about 3" high at 100 yards. What are we doing wrong?
I'm kinda curious why use a offset red dot with another red dot if as you said both are zeroed at 100 meters, is it just so you have a back up option that is better than iron sights or is there some other reason that I'm not aware of?
Did a whole other video on it. It’s also linked in this video
That is his main reason, his back up is “better than irons”.
Though, both are in the same mount. Both are electronic and are both a red dot. Doesn’t make sense to me. A LPVO, with a red dot or acog with red dot, or red dot with BUIS. That all makes more sense to me. I have back up aiming, but one is slightly different to reap benefits of each one. Example, LPVO with red dot, LPVO has magnification and red dot doesnt. Red dot with irons, well with irons, you dont need to worry about batteries.
@@ACGBLR 1.) Are red dots faster than irons? 2.) Do you buy into red dots on acog and lvpo because they are faster than offset irons? If you agree to all of this then the logic would state that a backup aiming system that is a red dot regardless of what the main optic is, is faster than irons. So a double red dot ain't that much of a stretch if at all...unless of course, you're saving weight and just want one aiming system. That's how I see it. Now do I have double red dot yet? No. Frankly because I run a T2 and trust that sight implicitly and it's not on my go to rifle which is a kac lvpo with offset T1.
Thankyou to all of you for your input.
Awesome
36y zero here works for me with minimal shift out to 250
Subbed after watching 1911 Syndicate's video of their favorite GunTubers.
I spy a Type A Rifle. Been running mine since pre-pandemic. I have some Gucci setups, but I absolutely love my Type A 10.5.
Jim we need a 300blk one 😬
36 yard zero for the win
yes for red dots, for LPVO I still like 100 yard
I've never heard anyone make height over bore, sound so difficult.
What 45 degree off set is that?
36/300 yards for CQB and general, 100 yards (with scope dope) for designated marksmen or sniper.
Why run a holo with an offset red dot?
A lot of AR owners don’t necessarily have access to a 100 yard range, but have access to a 25 yard indoor range. I know it has been covered before with other channels but they rarely take into account how much to adjust the POA vs the POI taking into account the mechanical offset of the optic. It would be great to see how to make your own DYI offset target to simulate a 100 yard zero at 25 yards or 10 yards.
Arma dynamics (google or whatever browser you heart) has a target for 25yds for 100yd zero. But remember you must confirm at 100yds.
3" high at 100. From .22lr - whatever else and in-between and above calibers. Tried and true MPBR.
I go with a 36 yard zero best for everything in my opinion
I think the arbitrary 100yd zero for magnified optics is obsolete. It originated when scopes had a tiny objective lens and sat low to the bore and 300yds was considered long range.
To 95% of shooters mils, moa, and the rest of external ballistics geometry is voodoo anyway, so just pick 50 or 100y and be done. For the small remainder who actually understand what Applied Ballistics or 4DOF is telling them, Maximum Point Blank Range tuned to your desired target hit radius, velocity, optic height, barrel twist, and bullet bc is the most versatile thing there is.
My 16" AR is zeroed at 43 yards (226y 2nd zero) which lets me hold dead center of a 5" plate and hit it from 0 to 267 yards, no holds needed.
Agreed! Surprised yours is the first comment I've seen about MPBR. I have a 13.9 that's zeroed at 43 yards and will keep me within 6" of target from 0-278 yards with a 1.6 HOB. This is the best method for anything other than long range competition
@@rustyschackleford5273 I shoot prs as well, and though MPBR makes less sense simply because of the wide range of distances involved, I have my 6.5CM zeroed at 250 instead of the usual 100.
There's hardly ever a target inside that range, and at 700 I'm holding 3.7 mils vs 4.4 with a 100 zero. Makes no difference to the bullet, and holding closer to the reticle center (or dialing fewer clicks) is just essier. But people still swear by that magic 100 yards.
Favorite pewtube content creator!! Keep up the amazing work. Also very stoked for your thoughts on the Vortex Razor III and how it stacks up to the ATACR
Type A rifle ? michigan in the house, how you like it?
combat zero which is the 36 yard zero is by far the best, 5-300 yard target with roughly a 6in difference with point of aim, point of impact
Yeah...if 300m is your max range. Otherwise there are objectively better zeros.
@@Whiskey.Tango.Actual yes ofc, im well aware of that, but from a CQ combat standpoint, theres no reason to go beyond that
@@NoDayz0ff I suppose. I'd rather be able to do 5-600m and just know a few holds tho. From experience.
@@Whiskey.Tango.Actual ahhh, I see what you mean, I guess if someone's trained and feels comfortable with that type of shot, then by all means enjoy, combat zero is for quickly getting on target without having to worry about hold/wind etc
@@NoDayz0ff I was originally just kinda being an ass...but I appreciate you not clapping back. We need to be nicer to each other and I failed that. You definitely make a good point about the 36y zero...especially for iron sights it's gas.
Jeez, Joe has so many brain wrinkles. They think he had head surgery for skin stuff, but it was the size of his brain trying to make room and escape
💀💀💀
🤣🤣🤣 brain sizzle madness 🔥
Sad that I’ve never seen a video about that Type A Rifle….
It just didn’t perform well no matter what we did to it and the guy that owned it decided he wanted to sell it
Red dot 36 yard zero lpvo 50 yards anything 8X or higher 100 yard zero for rifles in my opinion
All depends on what you’re trying to do
@@BCarnes it does. Essentially out to 300 just POA center mass and you’ll get a hit assuming all fundamentals are rigut
There is no magic number actually. To sum it up, the perfect zero distance is to give your weapon system the minimal holds across practical ranges, which is based on the application of the system. So depending on the purpose of your rifle, says if you want to use it mainly to engage CQB out to 300 yards. What you need is the Over Bore height (center of your sight to center of the bore), muzzle velocity of your rounds, bullet coefficient. You then need a ballistic app to simulate your round trajectory, base off these parameters. Each zero distance will result different POI at other distances. You’ll then pick the zero that yields the least shift in terms of POA and POI across the range that you intend to use your rifle with. Bottom line is you want to zero so that your gun shoots at flat as possible across the range of your choice.
I’m just going with 50 since I live in the middle of the city and don’t have any place to shoot past 200 yards without driving for hours.
@@willa1975Ain't nothin wrong with that. I used 50 for years
What trigger is that my G
Just the stock type a trigger
I like the 50 yard zero
Everyone here is such an expert all of a sudden. Yet watched thos whole video in an attempt to learn something. Lol
36 yard zero never more than a 5 inch +/- out to almost 600 yards from 0. Total deviation 7 inches across the board. And if you run an EOTech the bottome of the donut is zeroed for point of aim point of impact sub 10 yards.
+/- 5 inches out to 600 yards? How are you figuring that? There’s 80-90 inches of drop at 600 yards with a 36 yard zero.
@@JGoodZX6R pretty sure he meant 300 yards
If you use a lower 1/3 Eotech on a Unity Riser you have 3.47” height over bore. 57 yard zero is your flattest trajectory out to 300.
Yeah I use a 57 yard zero aswell, runnin a holoson dot on a unity fast mount. I put a 36 yard zero on it initially then when I stretched it passed 120 yards I was like....... wft is happening? I can make these shots in my sleep and didnt realize until later I was shooting over all my targets. Ballistics can be strange at times.
@@tylertapp131 haha same happen to me
Which round are you using?
@@aaronalvarez2646 regular ol M193
@@daven8905 hmm.. I’ve been trying to find a better zero for my 7.5” .300 with the unity fast LPVO mount. I’m only going out to max 300 and the LPVO is for more accuracy for harvesting what we hunt… 😫😫
36yd zero forever
Since you said the best rifle for most shooters is the 10.5", the right zero is 36 yards. Strelok is giving me a 6.7" spread for 1 foot to 200 yards with this zero so every center mass shot is a hit, even with just a simple red dot. (Longer barrel and higher velocity tightens the impact area).
Very true.
50yd is smaller to 200.
I run the 36 zero on my 11.5, and I'm certainly no pro, but I can aim center on a 6" steel from 15-200 yards and always hits 🤷🏻♂️
36yd is 🤌
@@ericraymond1274 You would do the same with 50yd zero to 200.
100 yd zero ftw.
I totally agree. It is the simplest one because all of your holds are holdovers with no hold-understand. Some people say the 50 or 36 yard zero is the simplest, but then have holdovers and hold-unders that they have to remember if they want to be more precise.
Off top. Sorry. So You take open red dot. Quite fragile for environmental conditions etc, as a backup, for rock solid eotech?
About zero. Good tool is some ballistic calc. To check what zero will need smallest holdovers at the distances that You think You will be shooting at.
Sick sallad hat
I do love a good cesar
36 yards
36 Yard Zero.
Depends on the optic. Many optics have zero you have to use for the holds and BDC to function.
Not only do you have to zero at their designed range, you also have to use the bullet that their BDC was designed for, and that bullet has to be going the same velocity as they designed it for. This is why BDCs generally suck. MIL reticle that you know how to use, this is the way.
@@wallace9045 Primary Arms has a bunch of different rounds and barrel lengths and calibers, so I can dial it for my specific setup. Burris has a ballistic calculator so you enter in what you're running (even multiple types of ammo) and print them out or write them down so I know my holds. That's just a couple of BDCs I have experience with. Much faster and easier than learning MILs in my opinion.
MPBR
As a competition shooter I can verify that a 36y zero with a 1.7 HOB and a barrel length between 11.5" and 16" (and 10.5 suppressed) gets you in the box out to 300 yards before hold-overs are needed.
I think you’re confusing HOB with height over rail
@@jrcumming997r6 yup
Holy shit reading these comments 😂
Never seen so many “experts” in one place at one time
This right here
Where can I get that offset mount?
Link is in the description
Make sure you folks confirm your d.o.p.e. with shots and not heresay.
50yd zero for all my ARs. 50Yd zero simplifies it to I can hit a combat effective zone, which is from your shoulders to you waistline, by simply shooting center mass from 0-300yds with my 11.5. for 400yds the hold over is now the head. Easiest to remember and i have no need to shoot over 350-400 with an 11.5"
I stick with 50 too. Even when I switched to a Unity FAST mount I did not notice enough difference on practical sized targets out to 300 to change anything
36yrd zero all day
That's what I thought.
36 yard zero is best
For an lvpo would 50yard be best?
All good points, though I would suggest anyone here who's curious about the height-over-bore issue to watch the MDT 'comically-tall' scope mount video. A zero is a zero is a zero. Train accordingly.
Man, some folks commented before watching the video. :facepalm:
Just my opinion but sounds like the high risers and worse then I thought
Great info, thanks! PS: Height, not heigth :)
Zero just depends on application. For magnified optics, 100 yard zero is king due to consistency across different environmental conditions. I run dots at 100 yard zero as well, but it’s primarily about knowing your DOPE. Most guys do some 25/200 or 36 yard zero on a cqb gun but use various types of ammo and probably don’t confirm at distance. With my 12.5” and Trijicon MRO I can keep hits centered on a 66% silhouette at 300 yards from a barricade. Not hard, if you actually take the time to true data. That said I’m a precision guy which apparently is a different breed 😂
So glad someone actually talked about height over bore for optics. IMO, the lower over bore equals a much more accurate rifle, period!!
Let’s cut the bullcrap,
Where is the hat from?
That’s classified
The best zero is going to be whatever your maximum rain shot you’re gonna take is going to be that’s what you should zero at.. Now mind you you in the military do a zero at 25 m, but then you go out to a known 300 m range target to confirm your zero. Or that’s the way it supposed to be done.
In the end it all depends on what the firearm is being used for. If it is cqb in your home, what ever the furthest shot you will take in your home, if outside your home what is the the purpose, if defense then how far is largest open area.
100 yards bc thats what my ACSS BDC is designed for.
Always confirm your data. Bdc reticles are designed for specific rounds and barrels
@@jimmybrodriguez Are there any calculators you suggest? I don't have any ranges near me that are over 100 yards.
Depending on the rifle, caliber, ballistics, and application.
Hit up Bruiser industries on IG
61 yard zero
36yrd
50 meters
a 36 yrd zero shawn ryan from vigilance elite put that to the test and see results
Well yes but actually no
yep it works great when using a EXPS Eotech on the upper receiver rail, but when you put same Eotech on a unity fast riser you change the HOB and need to re-calibrate your zero and i believe 57 yd zero with this riser would be close to the same 36 yd zero without.
Does not matter because the zero is nothing more than a placeholder.
Problem Solved
36 yard battle zero
Ima Dave yall 10 minutes. 25 yards
I like a 36 yard zero
36 yards and call it a day 😴
The best zero depends on the rifle, and the rifle depends on the mission. There is no best anything
Here we go again…… The one comment I will make is that too many look at optic height and mistake it for height over bore. There are benefits to higher and lower HOB. It just depends on what you are trying to achieve with that platform.
Absolutely and I’ve covered this difference at length on my IG as well as people mistake riser height, optical centerline over pic rail and HOB all the time. Ballistic apps give zero fucks what riser height or optical centerline only the distance of optic centerline to bore centerline like you said.
36 yard zero hands down.
Where's that at at 100, 200, 300?
36yd zero with what barrel length/load/velocity?
@@dexterous187the 36 yard zero, when used for 5.56 NATO M855 from a 20” barrel has a “duplicate zero” at approximately 300 yards. Assuming your height over bore is the same as a marine corps issued ACOG. It’s what the marine corps uses for a “battle sight zero” before a deployment. Any changes in barrel length, and therefore velocity, ammunition, caliber etc. makes this less than ideal. One must run their ammo out of their rifle over a chronograph, and figure out, with all the other necessary information, how to maximize your “maximum point blank range,” which is dependent on your zero distance. Ron Sooner did a video on this about a year ago, I’ll link it if I can find it.
I was in afghanistan in 200-2005, and we never had any issues lol. Since we were trained to shoot out to 300 meters to a point target with either iron sights, m68 (aimpoint), acog reflex sight, or the acog 4x sight.
So who ever told you that it would take that many rounds either was scared or could t shoot.
People are making this why more complicated than it is. The best zero is one that requires fewer holds out to 300. This is dependent on weather its iron sights, a red dot or a magnified optic which is dependent on what type of reticle the optic uses. No matter what zero one uses an offset must be used at closer distances because of the height over bore with an ar known as barrel sight relationship or the mechanical offset. A taller mount will create more of an offset to account for. You don't know if your rifle is truly zeroed until you confirm at distance.