Shotguns as a Drone Countermeasure?
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- čas přidán 7. 05. 2024
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Weaponized commercial drones are part of modern conflict zones.
Let's talk some theory about strategies on how to deal with that new reality.
Shooting down grenades with shotguns during WW1 is a myth that was propagated by advertising and propaganda, not reality:
czcams.com/video/hEt3FgUApkg/video.html
No but shooting down carrier pigeons was a reality and did happen.
@@BigMakBattleBlog The range is why he is suggesting TSS shot. Are TSS loaded shells even a thing you or the enemy would have access to over there?
@@BigMakBattleBlog Any chance that multiple people shooting at it with their rifles in tandem is of any better effectiveness in your experience, as it starts hovering? Or someone with a scoped full power rifle being more effective for drone defense (again as it’s not moving around much)?
I've got one funny idea for your drone shooting work: Get some big helium balloons and float up some drone parts to shoot at. A tethered balloon could hold enough important bits to show what your shot does at vertical distance. It might be possible to float two balloons with diagonal tethers so you could hang a laundry line of parts to shoot between the balloons which would give you more shots per balloon.
Well if You thinks drone is pricey (which it is) so better 3Dprint a mockup of a drone, hook it with a real on e and 20 yards of rope, and then shoot thoose mocups,
they also can be filled with parts of dead HDD ans so like stuff to measure damage to drone internals
also bring a blunderbus and a duck-cannon to work
You could put the drone on a pole and shoot it to determine effects of different loads. The drone would not be in flight, so the FAA should have no concerns.
Pepper brand new propellers at distance, attach them to a drone to see if it's still capable of flight.
A fifty yard pole?
@@737215 you could even just shot a powered down drone on a pole then try and turn it on.
I think an even better idea would be hanging it with fishing line from a tree or something so the pole doesn't block shots also it would be easier to set up.
@@storebrandpeas5413 you can put the drone on top of a target and just flip it sideways...
Karl, a clay shooter & hunter here. You might want to look at steel shot. It has a higher initial velocity (doesn't squash like lead), and being less dense you get a lot more pellets per oz - about half as much again. Granted the velocity drops off faster, but if you're after the drone blades they'll provide the collision speed even if you just dropped steel shot on them. Steel is hard, and it'll knock a duck out of the sky at 50 yds. Caveats: Steel-rated barrel, obviously, and pinging steel shot off a steel plate is bad karma.
Having hunted waterfowl my whole life, my uneducated anti-drone opinion would be #4 buckshot, which is similar to what we use (T or F steel shot) when we hunt geese. I'd also go with a made for purpose waterfowl shotgun, 24 inch or larger barrel 3.5 inch chamber.
3.5" imo is very important. More payload more better
Yes, a 28"-34" sporting semi-auto with an extended tube magazine would be a better choice than an 18" Benelli M4 or Beretta 1301.
@@edenironworks2@edenironworks2 I have shot many game birds out of the air with everything from a .410 to a 10ga 3.5, but it is one case where "manumits" actually have results in the field based only on my observations.
Eeee, 24" or longer, a UK-legal shotgun! Finally, we know why they insisted on that rule. They were _planning._
I would think at that distance a heavy waterfowl load be it steel or whatever would work.
One thing to note is that the FAA does not regulate flying in indoor spaces, even just a roof puts a space outside the national airspace system, so if you wanted to do such a test at an indoor range or other covered space it would not be something the FAA regulates.
I fly drones and I have a license. I can tell you the loss of a single propeller will cause a traditional quad drone to crash. Striking a leaf, a small twig, will cause some very light damage to the prop requiring replacement upon landing. In theory, even the lightest bird shot should do more damage than that and damage the prop to the point the drone drops (though uncontrollably).
Two thoughts:
1. I wonder if you could shoot a propeller at 50 - 100 meters, then install it on a drone to see if it will be capable of flight. If you do not post any video FROM the drone’s camera, you MAY be able to post footage of it attempting takeoff. Issue here is that we are attempting to fly a vehicle that will likely be unable to operate safely. If it’s under 150 grams and we don’t use its footage commercially, we don’t need a license. The rules MAY be different enough to allow this.
2. Look into RC flying aircraft. I’m unfamiliar with the rules here but I do recall seeing them at machine gun shoots. Go with a small helicopter design, and any damage resulting in a crash would likely do the same to a quadcopter.
Anyhow, you guys have been onto something with the WWSD AR and now this. Shotguns would be easier to field than the missile systems that keep getting researched by the MIC when we’re talking small commercial drones. I could go on and on here, but I think there’s just one more thing. There’s likely to be a maximum height these drones can operate within while still allowing accurate recon. You’re looking through the drone camera on a phone, tablet, or FPV googles. If we figure that out, then the range/spread of the ammunition might be the biggest factor.
Personal recommendation for the drone shootdown test. Suspend the drone via wire off a tall object or dedicated test stand and engage. Test off camera (we trust you) to see if the drone is flyable still. Great video, cheers!
They could just shoot an old iPad or something like that and see whether it still turns on.
Torsten Heinrich, a historian and host of Military & History is located in Panama and has a Shotgun vs. Drones Video coming up on his second channel soon.
Achtung, Deutsche antreten!
Shoot a non moving drone from the bottom then see if it will turn on and fly. OR, ask one of your friends in Mexico to preform the test. I'm sure it would be filmed on a potato but it would still be cool.
It's funny that a 1897 winchester shotgun could have an application in war again
Great timing. Couple days ago I've read recent news from soldiers that russian army started buying VEPR-12's for shooting drones. Soldiers work in pairs: one with "anti-drone gun" stops drone and holds it in place and then second with shotgun shoots it from safe distance.
Shotguns are also useful for neutralising small mines like "leaf-mines".
The anti-drone gun is crucial to this and the team has to be actively looking for drones because in any other scenario the reaction time is just not fast enough to go through all the motions before the prick with the joystick pushes the button.
There was a case here in NZ not long ago when a farmer noticed a drone flying around his house, he came outside and shot it down with a shotgun, threw it in the trash. Told the police and it ended up in the media. Police said he had a right to shoot it down and left it at that. America is the land of the free though, definitely totally free
A high speed propeller will quickly and catastrophically disintegrate with even a little damage.
My guess is that the bird shot would do a lot better than we might assume.
I fly rockets and at those speeds and g forces, the slightest weakness in any of your parts can cause a “sudden, unscheduled disassembly” of your vehicle.
IMHO, for the various sizes, types etc, #4 buckshot, or BB shot would be better, to ensure both pattern density sufficient to hit it, and do damage to the fragile vehicle? :)
Most fpv drones like the ones being used in Ukraine can sustain more damage than you think.
@@DeathByFryingPan good to know
I would have thought the velocity drop off curve for birdshot would make getting enough range seriously difficult. Mass helps retain momentum after all.
What if you were to tie a few balloons to a drone, float it to 50 meters, and then shoot at it?
"non functional drone replica" isnt an aircraft...
Or kite. It might matter legally if the target was tethered, not free-flying.
How about Balloons tie to a 3d printed drone replicant and tie to a RC car.
It doesn't need to be a drone. How about a dinner plate?
But if it comes down and lands on you what about the explosive?
There are also drones watching the area from a higher altitude.
best idea
bomber drones cheaper than groceries? sounds like the final form of the american dream
and huge legal hassle to keep people from trying to do any real science about drone warfare. my spider sense is tingling
No, it means $200 groceries. Thanks Brandon!
@@Shep01 Humans driving? Not in all cases anymore - for example the long range oil refinery hits are done with autonomously navigating and flying drones. Target acquisition? For now, in the war for Ukraine, yes. (as far as we know)
I think it possibly would be legal to do inside, which is outside of FAA jurisdiction. A big barn or warehouse might work.
I like the idea, but I see a few issues:
1) The range of turkey loads is about 50 yards... when fired horizontally and gravity is only working against a portion of the projectile's speed. You're going to lose range by firing straight up.
2) 50 yards might be where they're currently dropping from, but far below the potential height. Drones can just fly higher in response. Would reduce accuracy, sure, but not what we're going for. That's a lot of extra weight to carry to be an inconvenience.
Finally justifies the price of TSS flitecontrol flex
nothing justifies the price of TSS. bismuth is good enough.
As an unsuccessful (pressured) public land hunter only, I finally found a use for my unused TSS I pad 10 bucks a round for 🤣
@@groomersgotohell if only we could get the flitecontrol and FC flex wads as a reloading component...we could buy TSS by the kilo and load them alot cheaper than 13 bucks a peice.
@@tylerzmistowski5867 There's a reason they don't want to sell the wads made for tungsten. $$$
One problem with using a shotgun, and trust me they are better than nothing, is that even if you hit the drone it still explodes, and is still close enough to catch you with frag.
On funker530 there are a number of videos of attacking drones getting shot, exploding, and still causing casualties. One of the worse ones was a drone carrying a directional explosive. Must have been 20 meters away, and still starched both of the soldiers.
Those drone videos are brutal. Plus it must be terrifying to hear the buzzing around you.
it's the difference between shooting at a drone to defend and armored vehicle, which means you have to be outside said vehicle, and shooting at drones to defend yourself when you're not near armored vehicles and the drone is dropping anti personnel grenades on you
Some combination of an automated detection system with a semi automatic shotgun. Combining audio, visual, perhaps LIDAR for fine targeting. Of course this woukd require a vehicle to carry, but any vehicle, even a quad woukd do.
The problem with jamming is with cheap phone processors you can program in object detection. Lock on while outside jamming or detection range, and ride in GOT style. Or mix old with new and have a second drone outside of the jamming envelope lasing the target & program a beam rider.
Ya, you'd have to catch the drone before it's above you to help with a grenade dropper at all, so this seems more like anti-surveillance than anything else.
... and I guess if you reach a stalemate, that's at least some of your friends safe from the same drone. As cold a comfort as that is
The drone might well go off, but I'd rather one went off 50 yds away than right next to me.
My first thought is something like #4 buckshot. I don't trust the tiny birdshot to do adequate damage. #4 buckshot is the equivalent of a large magazine from a .22 rifle and I trust those pellets to break the drone when they hit it.
@4:37 almost any damage to a drone prop causes instant, unrecoverable, loss off control. The baldes readily shatter, and vibration at their prop rpm is catastrophic.
Do you have any footage of such a failure? And is that all props or just cheaper plastic?
Someone already mentioned using balloons. You could make a mockup of a drone, even if it was just a cardboard box of similar size, suspend it on a few balloons, and tether it with a kite string. That way you could even have someone drag it around for movement, or otherwise just shoot your target, bring the line down, anchor another target and send it up again. It would be a bit of a more involved process, but you could get creative with it.
If you know anyone with a 3D printer, they might even be able to print a drone shaped shell or silhouette for a target. There're plenty of potential ways to get some sort of useful data.
have you thought about using an r/c car as a drone substitute? While not perfect it may be similar enough to get an idea. Plus if you wanted to put a propeller decoration on your toy car that's just a fun decoration like a pinwheel on a bike.
Thats not a bad idea- be easier in winter, using a pusher prop sled. Problem- need someone to make a bunch of the silly things.
Ryan Mcbeth, I believe, covered this subject. I honestly would love to see you two have a lengthy conversation about it. Great video as always!
Ryan covers everything, he’s a really busy guy! Lol
I do think the twocharacters would have an interesting day doing that.
Maybe an equivalent test would be to do skeet shooting at longer ranges? Move the clay thrower 5 yards at a time away form you and see at what range you can still get effective shots on them?
Like that idea a lot. This would be very interesting.
They make a choke for the longbeard that gives you a decent pattern out to around 60-70 yards supposedly.
The irony of this post is funny to me I just patterned my turkey gun if you run a turkey choke it makes a big difference plus 3 1/2 turkey loads are like mortar shells you can get alot of distance out of them also look into #4 buckshot you really got my mind working now thank you so much for the content you provide I always enjoy it thanks Karl!
Reddot for skeet is going to depend on the dot&the day. I gave in a tried another pistol dot sight, and it worked this time, kinda. If I had trees & shadow as a backdrop, I could see it on brightness "6". Against the grey shop, brightness "8". On the sky, I couldn't see it on max (11). It was a sunny ish day, but not nearly as bright as it will be june-sept here in Texas.
Really interesting video. A few points: 1 thanks for not showing the actual deaths of people. Dropped munitions is enough, at least for me. I'm here to learn, not get off on war gore. 2: As others have said, some kind of suspended drone pinata -maybe not 50yds up, but off the ground 50yds out- would be a good penetration test target and not "flying". 3: There has GOT to be some country this is all totally legal and possible where we could set up this experiment. I know it would be expensive, but it would be supremely valuable information. Thanks y'all.
You can 3d print a drone shell and use disks to simulate a propeller arc, and balast the whole thing with a lead weight. Suspend it from a baloon by a 100 yd cord, and tether it to be 50 yds off the ground
Carl, I just got home from from a long exhausting work day, I see this video pop up and realizing I have a backlog of InRange videos to enjoy.
This is just what I needed right now! Been a long time watcher, and your content and personality has helped me through several rough periods of medical problems in the past.
Much love from Sweden, never stop rocking brother
I use 4 shot for turkey, and have never been disappointed. It has never failed out to beyond 50 yds.
Also, if you can hit a clay, you can hit a drone. Also, RC cars? Legal to shoot them? If so, it would be similar to a drone in structure. If you can kill an RC car(or similar) you can kill a drone.
Hahaha, clicked on this one to warn you that shooting down drones with a shotgun on your ranch is legally considered trying to down an aircraft :D
Glad you watch CivDiv-- that's a cool channel.
Just a reminder with regard to "civil unrest"-- you can be damn sure that if you shoot down a drone belonging to some federal agency, they will come try and throw you in prison for the rest of eternity.
Also it's really funny watching the history of military aviation begin again: "Hey we have a flying thing, we could use it to spot enemies! --> Hey what if we dropped grenades from the flying things? --> These grenade droppers are frustrating: we need a flying thing that shoots down other flying things."
One thing that's different about drones is that lots of these things are really small: it would be really funny to see someone specialize in training raptors to engage and destroy them :)
Waterfowling/Goose hunting loads might be more effective.
I'd quite like to see the bead vs red dot in trap/skeet shooting comparison you mentioned in the video. I've wondered if that would actually be a beneficial enough to use in competition
Buck Kicker makes chokes that give standard wads similar performance to Winchester Flight Control wads, and they're available in full choke spec. Not magic, but they give your loads some extra reach.
Also, I think that a lot of the drone drops are done from altitudes greater than 50yds/m and would render shotguns ineffective, though that can also vary on the skill level of the operators. A veteran operator from a UAF unit like Magyar's Birds could probably drop a grenade on you from 300-500ft altitude with lethality, while a noobie who's barely learned how to fly a drone without crashing it on take off will need to fly a lot closer.
I recently had this conversation with a few of my friends, they all went with turkey loads would be best but I propose heavy waterfowl loads of bb or larger would be ideal. I mostly look at it as if you have a drone busting shotgun that's your main weapon and bb or larger shot will still do quite a number on an enemy combatant inside of shotgun range (75 yards and in) and with the size of the shot you'd only really need one or two impacts to knock down a drone or at least severely damage it.
Drone blades are incredibly fragile, wouldn't bird shot be effective against those? you would only need to hit one blade.
I would be willing to bet an irresponsible amount of money that the FAA classified drones as aircraft (and entitled them to the legal protection thereof) is to protect police surveillance equipment.
Bit of a shotgun nerd here, I think turkey loads are a great place to start. Other options would be higher performance pheasant ammunition. My first pick however would Hornady coyote ammo. They have a flite control type wad and use BB size lead shot. I agree the tungsten would be best but at $13 a shot it gets expensive to issue them widely enough.
Seen a few clips of Russians shooting crude FPV drones with shotguns. Not sure how much utility you'd get out of equipping standard militaries with dedicated shotguns though, all they'd have to do is replace those quadcopters with something faster like lancets.
that's how all arms vs countermeasure situations work
just because it's possible to design a weapon that the countermeasure doesn't work against, doesn't mean it's worthless.
Coming soon to a theatre near you, the under-barrel shotgun attachment for your rifle.
Then you have, with a relatively inexpensive action, forced the enemy to spend time and resources on an even more expensive workaround. That's a win.
@@Sableagle that was tested. A 12 gauge barrel with a cartridge already in it, you just put it in a standard GP-25 and it just works. The problem is that it's single-shot and the barrel is extremely short.
@@Fragtastikgold star award - you want to create a dilemma, not a problem.problems have solutions, dilemmas you must choose one which is as bad or worse than other
On another note I find it very interesting that they stack the laws to where it's almost like they do not want us to test being able to take out drones efficiently as citizens...
With drones likely to be a key part of a future economy, is that really surprising? You can't shoot mules just cause you want to either.
When I was deployed in 2020 the Air Force security forces had an anti drone gun. It would send radio waves to the drone and jam the signal. I can’t remember the exact terminology but it look like a prop from a 1980s sci-fi movie.
here in italy you can find hunderds of old but trusty beretta a300 and variants for as little as 50 euros and they are very reliable shotguns, semiautomatic, easy to maintain and in general loved while hunting. i would send those to ukraine, because i know for a fact that they would perform way better than those turkish shi-fi shotguns that simply are not up to the job, and cost more.
hell the franchi 48, a copy of the browning auto 5 with simplifyed mechanic, is sold for 25 euros.
Damn, I want to go to italy then. The A300 is like $1000 în the US
Would those cheap rc helicopters bypass the FAA restrictions even if they wouldnt be that accurate for testing?
Double BB ( edit I grew up in Minnesota goose hunting that's my context and my experience I have taken geese at 60+ yards.)
Surely electronic jamming is the ideal way to protect against drones (assuming your side has the resources for it). I have a friend in the Navy who told me they have this backpack contraption they use while in port that disables drones that wander too close to the ship. I wonder how hard it would be to rig up some kind of high power and highly directional piece of jamming equipment with off the shelf resources.
American 180 bros, our time has finally come
I think the minimal legal test would be taking individual parts (the prop is probably the easiest), suspending it with string and using that as a proxy. You might even be able to get parts that aren't technically for aircraft but are reasonably similar.
When I looked this up, there was another shell type called "skynet" rounds that have a net with weights on the outside that wraps around the drone like something from a cartoon. You can buy the 2.5 inch shells, and when I was looking at it France just bought 28" Benelli supernovas for this that can fire a 3.5 inch shell with a bigger net.
Good and informative video.
Because weaponized drones are going to be a “thing” on the future battlefield, I’d expect purpose built shotguns and ammunition to deal with this threat.
Something like a semi automatic shotgun with a detachable magazine and loaded with #5 or #6 buckshot would be very effective against commercial drones. You used what was commercially available (turkey loads) but I could see the U.S. Army placing a large order for purpose made shotgun shells. In that case, they could order whatever shot/load/size combination they wanted.
The government protections seem to speak volumes.
"It's so easy that it's illegal"
As to needing a drone operators license contact a drone racer, they use the video from their drones for profit and would have all the needed licenses. They also have more knowledge of drones that would be advantageous for your project.
There may be a way to do what you want to film by doing so in specific places, or maybe even taking a small trip over the border with prior approval from the required parties. Again talk to the drone guys, they know far more than me.
When combat drones are cheaper than the infantry's rifle. Shotguns are the obvious choice, but I can see that it could be quite difficult to land hits, since drones are _highly_ manoeuvrable. If the drone pilot flies evasively, I would expect them to be much harder to hit than birds or clays flying in a straight line.
8 years ago rotor riot did a test with off the shelf racing quadcopters (so not 1:1 a grenade drone) and trying not to get shot and the outcome seemed to be hit the props, motors, main electronics or battery as a 9mm(I think) hit to the frame just knocked it about unless it caught said parts,
So, on the legality of shooting drones... Obviously those laws are stupid. But, I do have another question/idea for testing that: What about shooting a grounded drone? What about a "drone analog", that's not flying (that's maybe even incapable of flying, like you've removed the props or the control computer or something)? At least, be able to legally test the damage these rounds do to the body of the drone, right? Sure, we wouldn't get data on whether it would actually knock the drone out of the sky, but... It would be better then nothing.
Agreed. Funny this video comes out now as I just bought a shotgun this past weekend for both survival hunting and drone defense. The federal premium blackcloud 3in magnum #4 steel shot 1450fps did great. Compared to 7.5 and 8 bird shot, it had more pellets penetrate further. It also had flight control wads and was about $1 per round. So not outrageously expensive like the tungsten
I literally said last week that trap shooting would have no real world application.
Turns out that was, it has actual real world use as a training sport.
Its not just in war zones that counter measures against drones are becoming more common as municipalities in the US are using them to search for zoning infractions!
use a long barrelled fowl gun 3 1/2" chamber & steel shot, but ANY shotgun is better than none at all as any damage to a drones rotors will bring it down.
Isak Finnbogason has flown his drones through lava fountains. One came back with damaged props from impacts on airborne red-hot rocks.
Steel shot is the last thing you'd want to use. Only reason anybody shoots it is because it's cheap and non toxic. Performance wise it's the worst.
I have a Part 107 and I'll explain the FAA's thinking. Simply put, damaging a drone like a DJI could cause it to "Fly away." A little DJI Mavic can fly at over 30 mph for a 30 minutes depending on environment. You may shoot at your drone on your property but that drone could fly thousands of feet straight up or over to the next town if damaged, They don't write per drone legislation so they have to err even longer and faster possible fly aways.
There are a lot reasons drones "Fly away" but for this test my concern would be damage to collision avoidance sensors. If one of those is damaged the drone may think it needs to avoid an obstacle and fly unpredictably. Those sensors can be disabled but other damage to the system could cause the same result.
I agree with the FAA on these rules in general, but they lack many common sense exceptions. Like, what if you were in a warehouse shooting at the drone? It can't reasonably fly away but that would still be a violation. I have heard they are working on this and a bunch of other issues with treating quad-copters like real airplanes.
Part 107 isn't that hard and is worth doing especially for someone that uses a camera as much as you do. Drones can really add a lot of perspective and its hard to really appreciate until you actually have it.
Bird shot might be more effective than you think. Birds and drones are both "designed" to be very lightweight so even a small piece of lead hitting with sufficient velocity could still do considerable damage to a propeller blade. If you mess up a single blade of one of the props the drone will probably lose all control authority and tumble to the ground.
FAA doesn't have any power over indoor flights either. All you need is a large enough indoor range and you can do this in the USA totally legally.
The other day a fellow came by my house to warn me that drones would be flying overhead to survey and inspect roofs in the area. His job was to see if the structures were secure enough to support the solar panels his company was selling. I thanked him for the information. I also warned him that if one of his drones crossed my property line, it would be shot down. He looked at me funny, but not in a ha-ha way. He left without turning his back. Oh yeah, for the timid:
The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) generally has jurisdiction over all airspace above the ground in the United States, starting from the surface. There is no specific altitude above which FAA jurisdiction begins-it extends from the ground up. However, there are certain regulations about how airspace is used at various heights. For example, property owners have some limited rights to the airspace directly above their land, mainly concerning their ability to reasonably use and enjoy their property.
Legally, this has been interpreted to mean that landowners control only the airspace necessary to reasonably use and enjoy their land. This has generally been considered extending up to around 500 feet, but this is not a hard and fast rule. In my pilot days, I thought it was a law. Go figure. Anyway, I don't think it's a crime to make the threat unless the President is aboard.
Could you simulate shooting a drone by having a drone, or something like it, mounted on a post and have someone drive you around as yo try and shoot it? That should avoid all those legal issues and should be analogous enough.
Love your work !
Trained hawks or crows to tackle the drones
This is actually a sick idea lol, imagine modern militaries hiring/training falconers as part of a squad
A few years ago I saw an video on an airport using gyrfalcons to do this to recreational drones. Problem with that in a military environment is training a large bird to get blown up by the first drone it hits is not cost effective. Drones are so much faster now too.
Falcon Force😂 I'll start working on the emblem
I have few takes about this topic:
-I have seen not only "top atack" droping bombs drones, but also kamikadze ones still carying hand-granade size loads
-You are in a mud, rain/snow, on a patrol for whole day. It is almost end of your watch after moving to new location. How many, even experienced skeet/trap shooters can reliably neutralize the enemy drone flying towards/hovering above exhausted soldier equiped with semi-auto boom stick in those conditions when you have:
-like second or two to realize that you are targeted
-make sure, that you have correct amunition load apropriate to the task (maybe you have engaged humans at the longer ranges with slugs earlier)
- take those two or three critical to the whole squad shots to neutralize the drone
-..... what if it is more than one of them at once? (I have seen video with coordinated kamikadze strike drones decimating some trenches in SECONDS)
And from broader perspective:
- both sides of current conflict have exhausted at least "some" of capaticity of their sportsmen earlier in the war. Where will you get new bird hunters/skeet shooters from?
- do you have time to train new soldiers to fullfil that particular role in your infantry effectively?
- can any other soldier in a squad, when "drone killer guy" can take his role after basic training?
I am not about this whole idea is bad. But in a prolonged conflict perspective: I see shotguns, mounted on automated platforms in a drone defense role like "CIWIS" type weapons. Two members of the squad can take them to the defended position. Extended magazine capacity is nessesary. Highly acurate, stable, fast, and reliable weapon and mount platform too. But with current technologies I believe that we can make those. It will be and do so much better than any average "Ivan" or "Mike".
Will it be cheap? Propably not.
Will you have to reorganize your troops to have at least a platoon in a company size unit to achieve goals of "air defence"?
Hell yeah.
Will it be fast deliveried reliable sollution to the frontline- It need some R&G so no.
But when, and propably only then, when those technologies (sensing, targeting and reliably providing air cover for at least an hour without human interaction) will be established- you will have your troops relatively safe from this type of danger.
At least for the time, when someone find'sout a new, undefended way to killing people.
There is significant documentation of units carrying shotguns as drone protection. The problem is when an FPV racing drone is coming in at 70+ mph, even a shotgun is tough to hit it with
thanks for looking at this.
Shooting the drone down being equivalent to attacking a manned aircraft is stupid, but it is not a lengthy or challenging process to get a commercial drone license. Watched a couple free YT study guides, took a few free online practice tests, passed the test (albiet with a $150 fee to take it) the first time and the license is good for two years. It was 5 bucks to register the drone, and they send you a license card so you can prove you have one.
With the way technology is advancing, these drones are going to be able to drop munitions with much greater accuracy from far higher than a rifle (let alone a shotgun) could ever hope to hit. These cheap commercial drones can already function well outside a shotgun or puntguns effective range for surveillance and can go much higher than people realize. Staying under 400 feet is an FAA regulation for safety, not a limit of the technology or legal constraint for the battlefield like the Geneva Convention. It's going to take other weapons technologies to actually deal with these in a cost effective manner. Maybe puntguns could serve as point defense against a swarm of drones trying to ram a target, but even then, there are likely better technologies to use.
Finally someone talking about the appropriate shot for these drones. Tungsten would be my choice %100. You could up the pellet size to let’s say #6 or even #5 with a 2oz load. Yeah they are expensive and will kick hard, but they should reach out to 100 yards easy. They are also going to be cheaper then trying to figure out and manufacture some new anti drone tech.
There is an 8 year old video of rotor riot (before they sold out) doing a drone shooting range test with some police shooters and pro pilots
also @InrangeTv those FAA rules only apply inside the US. Most of us drone pilots travel to Mexico for filming once or twice a week 😉
No idea about the filming aspect but for the drone lethality test you can take a page out of the military's book and put a balloon or tennis ball on a string below the drone for a target to see if you can engage a small target that moves like a drone. Then to see if shot would work you can shoot at a drone on the ground at 50 yds. and see if it can still fly after.
My instant thought on what load was number 7 steel shot. Through personal witness as well watching a few guerilla channels, magnum loads of between 5 and 7 shot work well, and I imagine from personal use steel shot would be more likely to break the brittle plastic and down a drone with less pellets having to impact, increasing the likelihood of success. I have heard a few companies have been testing drone loads that are basically fancy turkey loads. Just like breaching rounds, there's always a civilian equivalent
Don't hate the player, hate the game.
Hey, here's an idea. I bet it would still be pretty expensive, but not as much as shooting a drone. Use a helium balloon to hoist something of similar construction to a drone up in the air, You could use it as a target and see how well it can be hit and what the effects are. Aiming straight up would replicate a pretty real situation in my humble.
What’s the max range for those loads? Adding altitude to 100yds would be trivial for the drone.
I've seen turkey hunt vids where they have dropped birds as far as 70 yards with TSS. I'd say it could be possible that TSS might be able to destabilize a small drone at that range but nobody has tested anything like this as everything about it is expensive and apparently illegal.
The payload on the drone doesn't have to be "safe". It could have hairpin trigger characteristics. If something goes wrong it's the loss of a drone. Who cares? So, 44 metersish doesn't sound as a safe distance... A drone approaching you might very well be destroyed and end up where you're standing. A big enough payload (12 cm mortar round with a tampered trigger might kill you if you set it off at that distance). I think the weapon needs to reach out much farther than what a shotgun can reach. But that's what I'm thinking.
Hello Matt,
My first time to watch your channel. As a seventy six year-damn old retired toolmaker, former trap boy, and part time farmer, with a lifetime interest in shooting sports of nearly any flavor, I am scoring this video, as an A+.
Your presentation makes sense to an experienced, show me the numbers kind of guy. Sadly, most people discuss home defense weapons in roughly this order: 357, 9mm, and 12 gauge 00 buckshot. This demonstrates no new thoughts or reasoning.
I am so pleased to see your choice of ammo for this job. Turkey, goose, and duck loads are meant to throw shot a long way, without having holes, and having the pellet mass/ energy to cut feathers, and break bones, on their way to the heart and lungs. Shells loaded with grex or other buffering agents will produce better patters. This might make another program, with a pattern board. A single stage press set up for 3” hulls, small bags of various shot sizes, different wads, and some slowww burning powder, may bring new thoughts to the folks in the front row.
Thanks again for sharing your thoughts on external ballistics, and the state of the union in these times.
I would not be surprised to see an anti-drone shotgun attachment, similar to an M203 grenade launcher in size, made to be fitted under the barrel of a standard combat rifle.
Nor would I be surprised to see anti-drone ammo become a thing in the near future as well.
I think a mix of the cheap 3" steel shot and #4 buck would be good mix for drones and folks.
There would be no point in using steel shot. Steel shot loses velocity much faster than lead due to its lower density. It literally only exists because of environmental regulations, and offers no performance benefit. A mix of #4 Buck and 5 or 6 lead shot would probably be fantastic though.
@sethrich5998 Steel is less dense, but it's harder than lead for when they start making the props out of something harder than printed polymer.
I feel like the standard birdshot would still be effective. Those drones are made of thin plastic and, like you said, it doesn't take a lot to destabilize them
Ty
They issue with drones is detecting it. I fly drones a lot and i have trouble finding it at 50 feet high and rarely can anyone see it over head. By the time you see it shooting down a flying bomb will likely still be bad for you.
I think a industrial 8 guage kiln gun with tungsten shot could be fun.
There's starting to be screw-in choke/compensator/muzzlebreak combos that can match Federal Flight Control groupings with cheap ammo. (Buck Kicker is one brand, but there are others). They can get better than full choke patterns. This is an option I intend to experiment with myself.
In Russia it is pretty discussed topic. So we are making not only radio jam devices for that, we making special ammo for 12g shotgun with metal wires, net guns, etc.
Let us know how far up you can get one of those nets, please!
Also i can give a link to a yt channel where most famous russian guntuber tested various drone counter measures from AK and shotgun to a radio warfare
@@Sableagle I realised that im cannot post links to a video, so search this "Крупнокалиберный Переполох Проводим опыты над камикадзе", there is a test on live drones with a net gun and other guns, but that tests was against Kamikaze drones rather than bombardment ones. In video he said up to ten meters by manufacturer, but in video, i think it throws up to 30m.
where do you come down on tube feed vs mag fed semi-autos for this application?
Is there no jammers that can work? Like those multi attenae cell jammers, but with a directional yagi antennae?
Or those shotgun rounds where its 3 segments connected with wire.
Prior to the advent of “Flight control” I used ‘Patternmaster’ chokes, I wonder if an appropriate turkey load and choke combo would give better reach?
Try having a plastic bin lid with a drone sketch drawn onto it. Tape it to the normal target.
How was that different than what we did already? All you're doing is testing patterns at distance, the difference is merely that the target has the image of a drone on it. It's still not a flying drone.
If you are using turkey loads, you should use a turkey shotgun. Long barrel full choke.
To work around the legalities, could you mount the drone to a frame as a target, shoot at the drone target not in flight, then test if the drone was capable of taking flight again, and not using any footage taken by the drone?
Drones in Ru-Ua conflict are using machine vision now. Now algorithm decides who lives, who dies. Welcome to the future.
I've actually thought about this some time back and settled on Cheddite Magnum with 50g load and 3.9mm pellets and RC JK6 with 36g load and 3.9mm pellets. Good alternatives are Cheddite 60 and 100 metri
I was literally thinking turkey load, turkey load would be good 😂
What frequency bandwidth do most drones operate on
I'd go 10 gauge, semi-automatic. Either the Remington or the Ithaca. (don't know if they are currently on the market, might have to source on the used market) Ammo, I'd look at steel BB shot. i think anything smaller than #2 shot wouldn't have the oomph (industry recognized technical term) to penetrate to the electronics at 50 yards.
That combo would be a substantial step up from 12 gauge. and the Semi auto 10 gauges are pretty smooth with regard to the recoil.
drone is mostly plastic. even one piece of birdshot could knock it out and you probably have very little time to aim properly anyways, so good spread is good. potentially. as long as its consistent and carries enough energy to punch through plastic. also, would a vog or grenade detonate when hit with bird shot? that video would be super interesting to watch. also, no need to shoot at actual drone, as you said with proliferation of the 3d printing - printout a few drone shaped targets with similar thickness and shoot at it. You could potentially tow it with another drone (on a string long enough to keep the real drone out of the harms way)
One thing I was thinking about this stuff, is about using a small net as the payload of the shotgun cartridge, maybe with metallic pellets as mass to add to the inertia effect. If such a thing could be manufactured, it would grab a drone and simply stop its propellers, thus immediately sending them to the ground.
I remember the Taofledermaus YT channel firing a load of buckshot united by a wire, so the concept is not impossible to try out.
This already exists. Someone made them and markets them to the police. It doesn't work very well. I think Taufledermaus did a video testing them.
That gunshot echo is next level.