ELEGOO Mars 4 DLP vs Saturn 3 Ultra 12K resin 3D printer: 2K DLP or 12K LCD for a comparable price?
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- čas přidán 2. 06. 2024
- Affiliate links:
Elegoo Mars 4 DLP $399
shrsl.com/48vmq
Elegoo Saturn 3 12K $499
shrsl.com/48vmt
Buy SUNLU filaments/Resin and accessories from official website:
bit.ly/sunlu-filaments
Aurora Tech Channel:
My 3D Printer Recommendation List with 7 Printers out of Almost 100 Machines I Have Ever Tested, and my 3D printer price tracker:
auroratechchannel.com/
00:00 Intro
03:33 Setting up the Mars 4 DLP
04:54 Mars 4 DLP first print with Elegoo standard 8K resin
06:14 Setting up the Saturn 3 Ultra 12K Mono LCD
07:22 Saturn 3 Ultra 12K first print with Elegoo standard 8K resin
07:44 Compare
08:40 Testing with different types of resin, SUNLU clear water washable resin
09:34 Testing with SUNLU Red Wax resin
11:21 Testing with SUNLU Nylon-Like resin
12:03 Pros and Cons
16:11 Introducing Aurora Tech Channel 3D Printer Price Tracker
Credits to all 3D model creators:
Elegoo rook:
www.thingiverse.com/thing:520...
Honeycomb box with lid:
cults3d.com/en/3d-model/tool/...
Statue of Liberty with base building:
www.thingiverse.com/thing:65869
Eiffel tower:
www.thingiverse.com/thing:912478
Chrysler Building
www.thingiverse.com/thing:934931
Print in Place Suzuki Jimny Jeep:
www.printables.com/model/211483
TITANIC
www.thingiverse.com/thing:272...
Captain America:
www.thingiverse.com/thing:454...
Hulk
www.thingiverse.com/thing:108...
Deadpool
www.thingiverse.com/thing:454...
Resin tray model used in the LCD/DLP demo:
www.thingiverse.com/thing:340...
Nose plier from 3dphw.com:
3dprintedhardware.com/
Get a free 5 piece 3d printable wrench set, just for signing up, no purchase is required.
Use the code AURORA3D at checkout to get 50% off.
Electrical Tape Dispenser
www.thingiverse.com/thing:620... - Věda a technologie
Nice video. You say at 16:56 you don't see any difference, but the upper windows of the Chrysler building look much better on the Mars 4 DLP. The 4 still has the shape and pattern continuing while the 3 has pretty much deteriorated to nothing.
Great video! This has me tempted to venture into resin printing. I'm pumped about the price tracking tool on your website, well done!
The price tracker and comparison tool is an amazing service to the community!
Great video and your price comparison tool, as always fantastic job.
Woot, price tracker is hella cool! Thanks team!
Hi Aurora,
You have the Z=0 set perfectly on the Saturn3 Ultra, your "base layer" exposure time of 35 seconds is WAY too high that's why you have that "elephant foot". You should set the base layer exposure time to 7.5 seconds - 10 seconds (3 - 4 times normal exposure) and you won't have the elephant foot or over-adhesion problems. Also, wait before exposure time is very important on these large build area printers, so the resin can distribute evenly below the big build plate, and stop moving before exposure, for the first 1 - 2 mm of the print.
Also, the "etched" build plate is a "gimmick" or "trick" to "force" adhesion (this includes nonsense recommendations to "sand the build plate") - the actual force that causes adhesion is Van der Waals force, and it is very dependent on properly trammed (aka "leveled") build plate - that's one of the reasons the smoother DLP build plate worked better. Even using a smooth, shiny tempered glass build surface works extremely well, so does an acid-etched (matte) tempered glass surface. You can see many examples on the Tango slicer d.i.s.c.o.r.d, just search "glass build plate" on there.
I know I should know how the print adheres to the build surface, being a PhD student, but my lab has some ceramic DLP printers and the company said we could use glass if we wanted. Their only warning was good luck getting parts off the build plate. I just stopped using the machine basically as it does not have enough energy density for my project and the astronomical costs of vat films with wear using ceramic particles so I switched to SLA.
Thanks for the info!
@@ScuffedEngineer Thank you so much for the valuable comment, my info is all empirical after years of experiments, the objective was to see if good "consumer-grade" mSLA LCD 3D resin printers could be viable for prototyping parts reasonably near the level of industrial pro SLA machines at a fraction of the cost. [ _Spoiler alert: in my case the answer is absolutely, more than I actually expected when I started testing_ ]
Interestingly, I have printed many ceramic parts on my mSLA LCD printers (Nova3D Bene4 Mono, Whale3 SE, and Whale3 Ultra), using Alphasense Ceramic resin, alone or as part of a mixture with other resins (Siraya Blu and 3DMaterials SuperPP), but due to my print settings (way lower bottom layer exposure, etc.), despite the cleanup being heinous, the film wear is reasonable and I never have over-adhesion, and this is true for flat on the build plate with a standard surface, a WhamBam flexplate, shiny, smooth, dark tinted tempered glass, and acid-etched clear tempered glass surfaces.
I assume that the ceramic DLP printers were using the unfortunately recommended outrageous "burn-in" [bottom layer] times and large number of "burn-in" layers? Using my methodology, the removal is like separating "wringing gage blocks" [search this term and look at the Starret-Webber website entry], it should then be very clear why this works [from the Starret-Webber page on wringing gage blocks]:
"Wringing requires two smooth, flat surfaces with surface finishes of 1 microinch AA or better.
For gage blocks, it becomes difficult to wring surfaces if the flatness starts to exceed 5
microinches. The sources of the forces holding gage blocks together are thought to come
from:
1. Air pressure from the surrounding environment as the air is squeezed out when the
blocks are slid together.
2. Surface tension from oil that remains on the gage blocks or water vapor from the air acts
as a glue to hold them together.
3. When two very flat surfaces are brought into such close contact with each other, this
allows an interchange of electrons between the atoms of the separate blocks, which
creates an attractive molecular force. (This force will remain even in a vacuum or if no oil
or water is present on the blocks.)
The last two sources are thought to be the most significant."
@@retromodernart4426 I'm using very high solids loading by volume resins, on the order of 60%+ which means that the ceramic particles make up over 80% of the weight of the resin. We want nearly fully dense parts before debinding and sintering to get as close to a monolithic structure as possible.
The wear doesn't really come from the printing process as much as the cleaning and we've done short DOEs on curing times. Our films also cost $50 a piece. The build plates we were given are powder coated and I haven't had the time to make a flat steel or aluminum plate for the printer.
My actual research is in silicon carbide in which power density is an issue. The DLP printers we have measure out to be 30mW/cm^2 on max power while my SLA printer gives 250mW on a 60 micron spot size. I am also after much smaller particle sizes than published in current papers. I can't say much due to my work currently being IP protected until the paper is published, but I'm in the single micron particle size range with a decent amount of nanoparticles.
I have a background in manufacturing and metrology so I know the concepts, but just haven't put the two together. It's good to have that information out there for others that may stumble upon it though.
@@ScuffedEngineer Thanks very much for all that additional info, I understand, it's very interesting! I've done experiments loading resin mixtures with mica powder "epoxy pigment" [ecopoxy brand], nearly zero warpage in over 6 months so far in one case, and around two years in an earlier experiment...
Hi @@retromodernart4426 , I found your post here very interesting and informative. I would love to learn more about your experiments and printing experiences. How might I contact you? (assuming you are ok with that)
Awesome review thanks for the information - really well put together
Im glad you finally reviewed resin printers they are not for everyone in the art form. I have the peopoly forge 6k large scale resin printer and I love it. With resin as long as you stick to your work flow its easy . I tried fdm printing long ago it was the crealiy cr-10 . It was a disaster i sold it to a friend of mine hes having trouble with it to . I like your reviews even though you im not a fdm guy keep up the good work..........
Thanks for the comparison! I just picked up the Mars 4 DLP. I'm excited to get to printing after watching your video.
The only downside for the printer is the build area.
I'm curious if one could increase the build area by swapping in Mars 4 Max parts (vat, build plate, top) and then using a magnifier to increase the size of the DLP.
I might give that a go one day to see what the results might be.
It would be great if you could do a review of the resin detergents versus isopropyl alcohol - print quality, ease of use, odors, flammability, cost, etc. Maybe toss in general purpose cleaners that have been used for resin printing, such as Simple Green and Mean Green.
Methylated Spirits is the way to go, I believe you call it denatured spirits.
Good as always. Thanks.
Thanks, really nice comparison. In my opinion the DLP prints look better on most of the prints.
Another GREAT review! Thanks! Aurora Tech is the 3D printer review that I trust the most.
12:20 - "Printing 24/7 nonstop, you'd need more than 18 years to wear out the (DLP) projector." By that logic, you'd need over 1.8 years to wear out an LED/LCD MSLA 3D printer's optical path when printing non-stop. Even commercial operations don't print non-stop, and heavy users like that are ready for a newer better machine in two years anyway... and as you said, other parts of the 3D printer would probably fail before then, so I don't really buy the projector lifespan as a real advantage.
The Aurora Tech 3D printer live price tracking and comparison database is very cool. I haven't seen those in a while.
That's kind of how I was thinking about it as well. Nobody seems to keep anything anymore until you've used up every last bit of it, myself included.
Actually, 2000 hours equals approximately 2.74 months of continuous 24/7 operation for an LCD, and 27.4 months for a DLP running nonstop
@@arturvoskanyan2467 - I didn't pay attention to the hours and focused on the years of continuous operation as related by Aurora Tech. As an engineer, I should know better than to trust someone else's math. I've always used 2000 hours as a good estimate of an annual full time job after sick days, vacation... so it's obviously not 1.8 years.
Welcome to the world of resin printing!
You can solve the elephants foot by adding wait before print delay on your base layers of several seconds. There are also other elephants foot compensation options in most slicers that effectively makes the base layers smaller, but if you can set a base layer wait before print separately from your normal layer wait before print, you can almost entirely eliminate elephant foot.
Alternatively, not printing anything directly on the plate will eliminate it as a concern, which is probably the easiest.
As for the dragon's horrid support scars, this suggests either over exposure (resulting in the supports being much larger than they were intended to be) or whoever supported it used much larger support tips than were necessary. Getting your exposure dialed in on a resin printer is a pretty important thing, but also having well supported models is equally important.
Personally I have found resin printing to be significantly "easier" than FDM in my 3d printing journey. While I've had a few struggles with odd behavior on my resin printer, I have been able to print LOTS of things without much more than spending a day calibrating my resin profile. Meanwhile (and maybe it's because I made the mistake of going with a creality printer) I managed to print half a dozen things on my FDM before it just decided to no longer function well enough to print a single layer despite hours upon hours of attempting to tune it. My Ender 3 s1 Plus has sat there for nearly 9 months accomplishing nothing, and I've just decided to pick up a bambu because I'm sick of it.
I think the dlp prints look better. Sometimes if you see roughness it is because the dlp cures at such a sharp line and it is truly more accurate to the model. The projector machines look smoother because there is some light that leaks past the lcd mask, so not as accurate. Plus it is just cool that dlp is tiny mirrors that rotate to aim the light.
Awesome! I didn't expect you to do one of our tools on a resin printer, looks great! How long did the needle nose pliers take to print on those printers?
Around 30 mins on both machines.
I always LOVE your reviews, yet I have to say that just from watching on my poor resolution screen I see big differences but I think because you are more tuned to FDM you will have to change your parameters for looking for differences...plus one of the main reason for resin printers is accuracy which you did not check. I understand this may not be your area but for us who have gone here resin is on a different level and much more practical for a subset of applications plus much faster to quality ratio.
My first 3d printer was a resin printer as the speed was same for printing 1 part or 20 parts as long as they could fit on the build plate. I switched to FDM later on due to requirement of printing PA for functional parts.
I liked the explanation of screen on time vs print time. Excellent point.
On another note. Pixel count doesn't mean higher resolution, just more pixels. Pixel SIZE determines how fine the resolution on the part will actually be. One 8k printer has a pixel size of 18 x18 microns. This printer has a pixel size 19x24 microns. So with the same part, printed at the same size on both printers, the 8K print will have better resolution.
There's another printer that, at 10K, has a 35x35 micron pixel size. Calling pixel count "resolution" is a marketing ploy.
I bought an ender 5s1 a few months ago to get into hobby and used it a dozen or so times and havent touched it in a couple months bc just got overwhelmed bc of other projects/hobbies also. This is 1st 3d print vid ive been recommended since then and thats it im goin back at it today LOL fusion 360 here i come
Wow that is a lot of different Elegoo products.
Very nice!! thanks!
DLP printers not only have the much longer-lived projector instead of a screen, but they're also more durable: LCD SLA printers tend to have the LCD without much protection right up against the resin vat. Any spills or scratches can damage the LCD, whereas with a DLP printer there's just the hardened glass you can easily clean/replace.
DLP printers also use far less energy than an LCD-based one, which can be beneficial when it comes to running a print farm. It's unfortunate that Ti still has the patents on DLP technology, otherwise we might see a lot more competition in this space.
The priuce premium isn't actually from Ti. The DMD in these printers costs $35. It was developed by Ti specifically to make DLP printing more affordable, and is a remarkable piece of engineering, considering the price for DMDs can go into the thousands of dollars.
No, this massive price disparity is purely from the printer manufacturers saying "DLP = Expensive so we're going to mark them up to hell"
Good job!
You know you have a great channel when viewers send likes for the inbuilt ads! Hoping SunLu appreciates your efforts.
I'd happily pay $600 for a 4K DLP to get the cleaner environment, longer life expectancy, and shorter exposure times.
Is longer life expectancy really important though? Will you keep your 4K DLP for 20,000 hours, or will you upgrade to the next, newer model in 100 hours? I've had my resin printers for a couple years now and might have 200 hours on each one and that was only in the beginning when it was new and interesting. Now, I'll only use them if I want to print something with a lot of detail, but knowing it won't last.
Resin wore off on me pretty quickly after a few models crumbled with normal daylight exposure in my home office, not direct sunlight, just incidental light that fills the room. I had an F-16 I printed a few months prior break the wing off when it fell about 4' one the carpeted floor. When I picked it up, it just crumbled easily. I went back to FDM printing at that point.
I still like learning about the new technology coming out, but to be honest, my current resin printers will probably last the rest of my life. LOL!
Nicely presented young lady.
Don't forget to ventilate the area.
Those fumes are not good for you.
Another great video and please don't forget your 'normal' filament 3d fan base.
Hello and thanks for the video! I'm looking for on of these models, but i'm asking about time to print. Is muchas faster one than an other? Thankyou in advanced.
Hello Mam, pls advice me which one i s better machine for jewellery models for casting , extremely minnor printing mark on serface of models.i am eagerly awaiting for your answer pls🎉
To my eyes it appears DLP loses some finer detail but prints sharper line work. Does DLP have less light bleed? If so that actually means the DLP prints are more accurate while the increased edge bleed of the LCD causes a minor blooming effect which decreases accuracy, almost similar to over-exposure. Is that correct? Regardless, thank you for your reviews. They're greatly appreciated.
BTW the reason one is shinier is that's printing at a higher resolution. The tower model is shinier also because its higher res. You struggle to see with the naked eye but your fingers can feel the difference. The 12k model will feel smoother to the touch.
That's an amazing technique! I'm impressed!😄
I would also like you to see the robots I made.😁
Do you know any place I could send my scrap pla from my supports I could donate? I’m just collecting them all in a box. Thought of this question because of the sponsor. Amazing review as always.
what do you suggest for jewellery model prints???
Resin is too messy for me too...
I do hope you already got the new FLsun printers to review though 🎉
I love my Mars 4 DLP
I contacted several Ball Screw and Straight Rail manufacturers and companies, a lil over a year ago, when trying to build my own Printer. I was told Lead Screws and Belt Drive was, and would continue to be, the best way to go. They did not assist me beyond that. A year later, and this is standard on some 3D Printers, huh.
I guess now they are going to tell me that all FDM Nozzles and most Beds, won't eventually be Induction Heaters.
Anycubic used a ball screw on their M3 Premium but discontinued that after 1 year, I assume there was some issue as it was a very good printer.
@@petercallison5765 When I researched into all the variations, you have to do a little more than just replace the Lead Screw with a Ball Screw.
Because it takes greater force to get the same result, you need to use Geared Motors that are within the Specs of the normal ones, as far as # of Positions and Speed of Response. And some suggest using a Nema 23 or 24 instead of a Nema 17 Step Motor, to get more power without overworking the motor are having sluggish response.
CNC machines often use Ball Screws, because they can handle the higher pressures and torque necessary to cut/engrave wood and meta. If they are of good quality, they move as fast or faster, than some FDM printers. So the concept is sound, it just takes some engineering.
awesome, can u compare the prusa SL1-S with the DLP for a functional setting ?
I'm afraid not. In my opinion, a 4K Mono LCD machine priced at $2000 seems quite excessive, especially when most other brands offer 4K machines for $150. While I still believe a Prusa machine is better in some ways, I don't think it's worth paying 13 times more for it.
As someone with a much more expensive DLP printer and a SL1-S available for use in my lab, the SL1-S is great if you need fast prints. It can really knock out prints with good quality if it fits in the volume. Is it worth that much to buy personally is a choice you have to make.
It's interesting that you'd favor longevity over resolution. It's great that the DLP projector lasts 18 years, but a 3D printer isn't a television. I'm not planning on keeping it until it fails. We're still in the middle of a resin printer revolution.
For example, check out the Athena printer - it has build plate levelling and a heated chamber. We will soon (3-4 printer generations) have mature systems with intelligent resin temperature/exposure time controls, strain-gauge levelling and release detection, and probably AI tools to help set exposure times.
It's almost foolish to purchase a resin printer right now. I would lean towards buying the least expensive one that fits your needs knowing that it'll be "obsolete" in a few years.
As someone who has run a resin print farm I can assure you that changing LCDs is miserable and I would personally favor longevity over resolution any day of the week and twice on Sunday. I have changed about a dozen LCDs.
“It’s almost foolish to buy a resin printer now.”
Anytime you wait for the next generation you are missing out on productivity. It’s shocking to me to not buy one because a better one will be out in a few years. At the peak of my printing, my printers were paying for themselves every 2-3 days.
Thanks for sharing your experience!
Resin printing doesn't translate that well from filament printing when applying the same principles
- Models should be oriented different than was done
- The profiles are not tuned for the specific resins. Translucent and non-translucent resins behave way different, same applies for printers and resin brands. Heck, even different batches of the same resin (brand, color & type) can require some testing to get the optimal timings
- The elephant foot is typically avoided when using best practices regarding orientation
- Different printer technologies, as done here, require vastly different profiles / timings. 35 second bottom layers for DLP had me scratching my head
- The support marks as shown can be avoided (mostly) with tuning the support settings: How thick they are, how deep they go, shape... but also with method (warm water can assist) and placement
- Difference in shine has to do with the resolution and the exposure time. Translucent resins can cloud more when overexposed and lower resolutions tend to be more clear
- AA can also be a large part of the quality of the end-product
I appreciate your filament printer reviews a lot. This review was rubbing me the wrong way because of all the "mistakes".
Contrary to "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all", I still wanted to provide an honest opinion.
*sigh* let's get downvoting, folks!
Which device do you recommend @Lizard008? Saturn 3 Ultra x Mars 4 DLP? Mostly for dentistry.
Ha, I found an error on your website. The Bambu X1C is 256mm^3, not 250^3.
or 2mm^8^3.
Need Bambu lab a1 review please
Why are the products of the mars 4 looking more matt?
Probably lower resolution,
Higher = more "glossy" finish,- but i guess any of this only applies if you arent painting your models after anyways.
You are the cutest tech CZcamsr I've ever seen!
Why do resin printers need supports?
You need support because adding another layer on top of the previous ones prevents the small cured resin pieces from flowing into the tank.
Your printing at 0.050mm then wondering why the result are similar
The dreaded elephant foot seams much less on the DLP
👍🏻👍🏻
good job kid
The real difference between the two isn't lifespan. The internals of both will outlive your desire to use them as technology advances beyond them. The real difference is in build size, where the Saturn has an obvious advantage. Splitting and joining parts is not a viable option in resin printing. I own both a 2k DLP printer and a Saturn 3 Ultra.
Lasting 18 years is great, so you will be able to get a 10 year old printer for $5. These thing are seriously out of date after 2 years.
G3
With the ultra, the transparent looks to have yellowed more during curing than the DLP.
😁
I can’t believe you printed with one of those slush boxes. It hurt to hear your time lapse music play to one of those things. FDM forever!!!!!
I love FDM more, but sometimes printing with resin could also be fun :)