Reading Nietzsche Politically - Matt McManus x Spencer Leonard converdiction
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- čas přidán 9. 07. 2024
- Should we read Nietzsche politically? Matt McManus x Spencer Leonard
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Spencer completely changed my mind on Nietzsche in this conversation
For a moment there, when Leonard said ”Learn how to read” (to Matt who has read and written more books than most of us) I thought the screen would blow up in my face
Spencer fuckin rules
I appreciate Mr. Leonard’s intervention.
This was an incredible talk. Time to relisten.
Matt really misses the actual majority of what Marx criticizes in the Critique of the Gotha Programme. Most of it is aimed at the nationalism and democratic idealism of the workers movement!
And who did he think were utopians?!
"What this reveals, on the other side, is the foolishness of those socialists (namely the French, who want to depict socialism as the realization of the ideals of bourgeois society articulated by the French revolution) who demonstrate that exchange and exchange value etc. are originally (in time) or essentially (in their adequate form) a system of universal freedom and equality, but that they have been perverted by money, capital, etc. [23] Or, also, that history has so far failed in every attempt to implement them in their true manner, but that they have now, like Proudhon, discovered e.g. the real Jacob, and intend now to supply the genuine history of these relations in place of the fake. The proper reply to them is: that exchange value or, more precisely, the money system is in fact the system of equality and freedom, and that the disturbances which they encounter in the further development of the system are disturbances inherent in it, are merely the realization of equality and freedom, which prove to be inequality and unfreedom. It is just as pious as it is stupid to wish that exchange value would not develop into capital, nor labour which produces exchange value into wage labour. What divides these gentlemen from the bourgeois apologists is, on one side, their sensitivity to the contradictions included in the system; on the other, the utopian inability to grasp the necessary difference between the real and the ideal form of bourgeois society, which is the cause of their desire to undertake the superfluous business of realizing the ideal expression again, which is in fact only the inverted projection [Lichtbild] of this reality. And now, indeed, in opposition to these socialists there is the stale argumentation of the degenerate economics of most recent times (whose classical representative as regards insipidness, affectation of dialectics, puffy arrogance, effete, complacent platitudinousness and complete inability to grasp historic processes is Frederick Bastiat, because the American, Carey, at least brings out the specific American relations as against the European), which demonstrates that economic relations everywhere express the same simple determinants, and hence that they everywhere express the equality and freedom of the simple exchange of exchange values; this point entirely reduces itself to an infantile abstraction."
(Grundrisse)
Well said
Great talk
I enjoyed Matt’s Postmodern conservatism, also The political right and equality. I like following his line of thought even if the books are pretty expensive 😂 I could see him going further into the aesthetics of the political complex in the future ? A semantic map of Leviathan ? Anyway - nice conversation with an exciting writer.
Spencer reads Nietzsche as if he knows him better than Nietz knows himself. THIS is the wrong way to read.
Let me give an example via Nietz: "Let me therefore say clearly that war is just as necessary for the state as the slave is for society....a condition of illness..that illness, blatantly desecrating a well-meant word, is call 'liberalism'. The whole of that liberalism, built on an imaginary dignity of man..." -Nietzsche, The Early Notebooks 10 and 11, 1871 Cambridge Press [pp. 75, 81]. I can see so-called negative dialectic in Nietz, the sublation of David Fredrich Strauss, but of Rousseau??? No no no. He hated Rousseau...especially "the Rousseau in the Revolution". Slavery is perfectly natural and necessary for Nietz in order to actualize his version of the aesthetic (not ascetic) ideal that was originally found in the Greeks. Nietzsche is our most worthy adversary indeed
These guys should read Evgeny Pashukanis' "The General Theory of Law and Marxism". All these liberal categories "freedom, equality, rights" fall into the "form of law" discussed in that book. Supplement that with Karl Held's "The Democratic State: Critique of Bourgeois Sovereignty".
Interesting discussion!
@30:00 Spencer says that the idea of subjectivity arising from social relations is original to the high Enlightenment period seems wrong to me. Isn't that the very thing that Plato is pointing at with the cave analogy? The point is to transcend inherited cultural ideation and then re-enter with new insight to make changes. Sort of a de-teritorialization and re-territorialization. Iamblichus and Proclus are very clearly focused on the sensual world as being the basis (or vehicle) of the Psyche (soul).
I'll keep it simple: Plato gives no account of his society, the underlying form of its social relations. Indeed, neither he nor any other pre-modern thinker has any concept of society whatsoever. So how could Plato or anyone else possibly account, specifically, for the subjectivity of that society? (Incidentally, this is why Marx undertakes a critique of political economy, as the self-consciousness of bourgeois society. There is no such thing as classical or medieval political economy, no real precursor to, say, Adam Smith in the premodern world. Marx takes this up explicitly in Capital when he addresses Aristotle's incomprehension of, inability to conceptualize the commodity form.) You make my point, incidentally, when you write that "the point is to transcend inherited cultural ideation." That's not the Enlightenment's project, which is rather to grasp (and thereby advance) the inner potential of society. Rousseau, Adam Smith, Kant, and Hegel, for instance, are engaged in an immanent dialectical critique of society. Alternatively stated, "cultural ideation" is not subjectivity, which is rather the self-consciousness of society's freedom. Recognizing the crisis of the bourgeois dialectic, Nietzsche takes the Enlightenment (which, in classic Hegelian terms, he calls "Christianity") one step further into an immanent dialectical critique of the dialectic of the ascetic ideal (the will to truth / nihilism). As he writes, "what meaning does our being have, if it were not that that will to truth has become conscious of itself as a problem in us?" This is what I refer to, borrowing Adorno's phrase, as Nietzsche's "negative dialectics."
Its crazy how Spencer Leonard sounds like a religious apologist when discussing Nietzsche. I don't see how you can read Nietzsche words, as well as the details of his life, and walk away not seeing that he is a reactionary. Why else does he glorify slavery? Or the domination of woman? Why does he hold such contempt for the masses and slave morality? The right wing Nietzschians see this very clearly, yet the left wing seems confused.
"Slavery made man interesting" is one of the lamest cope outs I've ever heard. An absolute insult to anyone who actually lived as a slave or slave master. Also an insult to Nietzsche.
I’m digging Alan watts at the mo…thinking on nothing
God kisses us with each other….
Boring
Keep listening it gets good.
@@Panama_lewis Nah Champ time has been wasted already, no more. Thanks though
@@marioalvarez4316 alright chief