Street VS Race Car Driveshafts
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- čas přidán 25. 07. 2024
- A look at driveshafts and CV joints as found in street cars, what you can do to get the most out of them, and how to modify and maintain them for daily and/or racing use.
- Auta a dopravní prostředky
Small note: Driveline components should be rated to transmit torque, not horsepower.
Boosted 2 is correct. However, since engines usually spin at around the same range of RPM (1K to about 9K) and power = torque * rotational speed, you can sensibly correlate engine HP to stress on the axles.
@@BaliMystic But on race cars you're most definitely going to be modding your engine to have more horse power and low end torque so what's "usually" the case literally doesn't matter seeming as your engine is not going to be the usual.
Winking Walrus well often in rally you want to keep your power close to stock to complete in many classes, typically cars are most competitive in the class they started in or maybe one up. Which is just to say massively increasing rpm or torque is not very common in beginner rally, since an engine swap or big turbo will just put you in a class your car (or more importantly your skill level) isn’t competitive in.
Racer: Slow in fast out
Mechanic: Grease in dirt out
hahahha genius
Other way around, dirt out grease in
This was interesting, especially after finding out from the service writer at my deslership that the car I daily is starting to sling grease from the CV boots.
what we used to do to the cv's on the vw baja bugs was to take the cv a part and have the cages re heat treated to a rockwell c38 i think and it would make them not to brittle and they would last a lot longer
Wyatt is a rare talent. Thanks for all the great videos!
Outstanding show as always 👍🏼thanks for sharing your knowledge, cheers.
wyatt! your videos are the friggin best, bought a fiesta st because of you guys
Thanks, I clicked to find a good race “driveshaft”... but now I am well caught up on axles and cv joints.
You guys are great! Now I won’t complain about my MK3 Focus RS horrible turning radius anymore;-)
Thanks
i find adding just a couple drops of gear oil to EP2 or 3 axle grease will keep it from drying out inside the boot and allows the grease that is flung outwards while driving to flow back easier through the CV joint
Thanks for all your videos !
Very good explanation why rear wheel drive is great. I one broke a cv joint on a 75HP VW Golf, guess what, it happened when the steering angle was maxed.
Thank you for your knowledge I am learning alot about different car parts iv only got into this in 2016 and I'm 32 years old
Loving these videos, Wyatt is a good presenter.
I was going on a 300 mile journey, so I inspected my car, and the cv boot was torn. Put some high pressure moly grease in and made a patch out of gorilla tape, worked like a charm! Made the trip with no vibration clicking or complaints while maintaining 75 the whole time. Definitely works in a pinch.
Because you really think it would suddenly cause vibration at 75 lol? It'll take a while for grease to get out and dirt to get in to the point of causing actual damage. Plus, at 75 you're not giving much steering angle so I really don't see how you could expect vibration or noise from a torn boot.
rock while I do agree with you, I also drove another 1000 miles like that, and while putting the car in situations where much more steering angle is required would cause premature wear much quicker, the cv joints do have angle even while going straight down the road, no need to be such an a-hole buddy, not sure what your problem is
Dante DeSimone sorry man stay safe
Quite often the diesel version of the car has a higher torque capacity drive shaft fitted. Ford does a sports diesel variant and I have found the drive shafts to be very tough with almost no failures other than driver errors.
Great video Guys!
Thanks for all the valuable info! 🙏
Wyatt, man, your boss is awesome 🙌
Now I know what to watch out for when I have a pick up lifted. Thanks.
I had a Mits Cordia GSR Turbo front shaft pop going up a long hill , a few clunks then it hit the rev limiter , ballbearings and shells everywhere lol...had to wait 3 days for one to arrive from another state!
Love the vids Wyatt, keep em coming guys! Can you please do a video for the more grass roots motorsport competitor wanting to take their car from a road going car to a more competition based car. Going over what to start out with changing weather to go for harnesses first or a good pair of seats and that sort of thing in an list of what to do first to last, and than once getting on things like suspension and roll cages weather it might be a better idea to build our own suspension or to buy it from a company that already makes it or may it even be better to use the suspension out of a heavier car from that manufacturer if it happens to bolt in for rally use? Also as a lower budget competitor would it be better to pay someone to build a cage for my car or is it going to be worth building a cage at home with a bit of help from someone that may have done it before, and what are the types of things that are top priorities when building a rollcage. I'm currently building a Mercedes 190e for autocross competition in Australia (what you call rallycross in the states) which I plan to eventually do rally's with once I turn 18 and am trying to work out all of those little type things and choices of what I do when modifying the car. Also could you please do some videos on how to set cars up out in the field for different conditions like where would I would want to have a higher or lower spring rate with examples of the different terrain and conditions. Sorry about the paragraph but I'm trying to learn all I can about how to set up a car and your videos are the best and so far have been helping me heaps aswell as practicing the driving techniques that have been explained in some of you're older videos and I have been getting much quicker in competition! Thanks for the amazing videos and please don't stop making them!
This was fantastic!
I have also had fwd cv shafts also called half shafts and a transverse transmission a trans-axle
I just recently did a video. Where I replace my CV boots. It's a messy job. But having custom axles. It's definitely worth just replacing the booth.
Thanks guys, very interested.
Thanks, very informative video
great educational videos
Sooo good info keep up man
Very interesting insights
the auto parts store i work at has split boots-- two halves that are glued together, it saves a lot of time and you need far less equipment to replace them. this plus the ghetto version the video mentions means there is NO excuse for naked cv joints.
Wyatt you are my favourite
It would have been useful to discuss those aftermarket split boots that could be installed without taking the joint apart; are any of them any good? There was some car model back in the '80s (maybe a number of them) that had a lifetime warranty on the CV joints as long as the boot was not broken, but I have no idea if it covered joints with boots that had been replaced.
I need help on my 2012 Acura tl sh awd , i want to take the bmw 7 and use their setup on my car, and I can’t find any information on how to build a custom front or rear cv axle.
I hav a question I install exedy performance clutch on my ford fiesta and my 5 gear counter shaft teeth worn out.Does this mean the the countershaft 5 gear cant handle the power of the clutch
Do you guys have any good automotive books or online data loggers so we can track mileage, parts, buy date, how long it last, maintenance and so on for aftermarket and maintenance intervals?
Is there a video along these lines for RWD live-axle cars? Most of these parts are for wishbone or a-frame suspensions and are most commonly found on FWD/AWD cars. I can't imagine everything you'd find in a rally event has that heavy double wishbone. What would be good suggestions to keep a long driveshaft and differential in use?
Suggestions for axle grease? Synthetic? Brand?
super informative ... where can I order driveshaft - cv joint for evo 4
I build fiesta proto with evo 4 mechanical at my garage
big thanks
Any problems with breaking other parts when using upgraded cv shafts? Like trans issues or diff issues?
hi bro just asking which size the axle of b20b engine manual using ek 4
I've heard most rally cars run about 540 deg of steering. Is this because of the limited steering you guys mentioned or do some rally cars actually change the steering ratios as well for less turns to full lock?
Thank you for the video.
I do some grip turn/trac racing with a lowered suspension. I noticed my rear cv joint boots leaked(rwd) and I know the boots can be replaced. Does it make more sense to have higher grade cv joints for cars with lowered suspension?
If you're doing any kind of racing, upgraded CV joints will definitely add longevity and peace of mind. The lowered suspension probably doesn't have much to do with it unless they're at a more extreme angle than they were stock, usually that's more of an issue when the suspension is taller or longer travel than stock so you should be all set. Good quality CVs with good grease should last quite a long time.
this just confirmed that I need a new drive shaft
Why
If u break it yes
935 racers found some kind of coal furnace cart grease that could handle 3x heat and pressure of what racers usually used. I would have to look at back issues of European Car to find manufacturer and product name for bullet proof CV grease.
YES!!!
YO IF YOU FIND THAT GREASE LEMME KNOW PLS
thank you! 👍
Super informative as always, I didn't know a thing about drive shafts before this. At 4:51 ish, Tim starts talking about absorbing energy. In a rally car is it sometimes preferable to use stock clutches and mounts so that they can absorb more shock, rather than have solid parts everywhere?
GardenPT Thank you so much for answering! Makes a lot of sense
You won't have many failures in normal street cars, and you won't have many failures in full race cars... The problems happen when you're halfway in between. If you do a race clutch and solid mounts for the engine and trans, something down the line is probably going to grenade... Might be the transmission, a driveshaft, differential, mounting point on the chassis...
The inner joint can also wear out. I had one causing problems on a car I had - and it wore out because it was right above the silencer that overheated it over time.
Ohhhh yeah too close to the exhaust baked the grease! Good to know, never heard of that but that's great info.
Okay where can I buy me good front cv axle for my 3" left element 2003
Do you ever notice any significant longevity gains when increasing power and decreasing the weight on a race car? I have a Mini Cooper S that I am looking to rally and swapped with a AWD 4g63. I am wondering if my stock Mitsubishi axles can handle more power in the Mini chassis since it's overall weight is lighter than the original donor car by about 400 lbs. Perhaps it's not significant enough of a change though
Nothing to do with power or weight, just extreme angles and loading.
Beaver Lake Motorsports Angles do play a part in really specifically but that's not what I'm asking. Loading is literally a factory of weight and power. If you accelerate faster or weigh more, you will have increased torsional load on the axle. My question is if being 400 lbs lighter (current estimated weight is about 2900 to 3000 lbs) will be significant enough difference to make them last longer than on the original car.
As a reference my drift car can snap axles and it doesn't ever have significant side impact loading like on a rally or in an accident. I can snap the stock axles doing a drag launch. And with my original question, I'm not asking about impact loading because obviously it's not design as a contact part in that capacity.
You're still gonna want to get the biggest outer cv you can use in your application, it's clear in the video.
Drift cars break shafts because of power, rally cars pull outer cv's apart because of torsional loads on a joint that's in an extreme position.
0:24 I was used to the term "half-shafts" for shafts that go from the differential to one wheel.
Definitely a correct option, especially in Europe they're always "half-shafts"
Another reason I insist on RD. Some excellent ideas there.
Great video! How often do you reckon I should *service* them joints?
Depends on the vehicle and how hard you're using it, but at least once or twice a season if you're racing.
Thank you!
i had so much problems with this parts on my 350 hp cupra but i was faulty cause didn't put nought grease inside it was overheating :) learn by mistakes to put more then lessss
How many miles and/or years should OEM CV axles last with basic on the road regular driving - Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.7L V8 and Toyota Camry 3.0L V6?
At least 100k miles
In Brazil, Ford only sells a complete driveshaft, not parts.
And if you has a Focus MK2, most of the original parts are difficult to find.
Thats Ford in general, Most American mechanics despise Ford because they rape you for the entire assembly and to make sure you buy the parts from Ford they change the designs constantly so aftermarket suppliers can't keep up so you're stuck buying from Ford and Ford only sells the entire assembly.
@ Rockauto(dot) com my guy...
Yeah Ford sucks, just trying to do brakes on one of their trucks is a perfect example.
soo if my half shaft is rated to withstand 500hp can my left and right cv joints be rated for 1000hp? :P or vice versa? I dont know what the hell im talking about
how do you stop boots from getting cut open, seems like something that would happen a lot in rally.
We just keep a close eye on them, the easy thing to do is have a spare driveshaft in service so that if you have a problem you can just swap the whole thing in a hurry, then take your time cleaning the bad one out and rebuilding it later.
If I gently lower a fwd car to keep the cv closer to level under normal driving conditions, is it feasible to dial in a little more steering angle? If so, how does one go about it?
You can usually get a little more steering angle pretty easily, but it's kinda case-by-case with different cars what's possible. Google "steering angle kit" and you'll see what the drifters are using, also you might find an OEM solution that works well enough for your purposes.
excellent video!
looks like the upgraded CV joint is from the diesel fiesta
I race in Lemons, and I've replaced axles at least a half dozen times, and it has ALWAYS been the inner cv joint that failed. Never the axle or the outer joint.
spraying some silicon lube.. wether dry or wet type even some rubber conditioner on the outside of the CV boot from time to time will help it last longer..
Wheel hop really likes to break half shafts.
No mention of replacing a torn axle boot?
How often do you see Subaru engines blow up? I know ringlands are a big issue for modified street cars, but do all the (close to stock) Subaru rally cars have the same issue? I would assume a racing driver knows how to take better care of their car than the average tuner, I'm not sure if that makes a difference though.
Subaru engines... You hit the nail on the head already I think, you can build one close to stock and go a little easy driving it but don't expect to bring too many trophies home. The guys that are winning go through a couple engines a season, more than that and there's probably something weird going on.
Does braking while in gear (or just engine-braking with throttle lift) wear out CV joints and/or the gearbox?
Rice Y I don't think so, theres much less load on it than on throttle.
It doesn't if you don't downshift from 4th to 2nd and lock the wheels with releasing the clutch.
I always rev-match if not together with double-clutching when down-shifting without passing over redline to reduce wear as much as I can
If so, everything should be fine.
When under steer do not give more steer give it less and brake put wait on the weels and get your traction back
Ye, my ultimate question would be on normal cars, street drivinv, buf fast. is there any risk? Grip(not rally) sport driving with normal car(or basic sports car).
English please?
I believe you got some basic human intuition; I am asking what can happen when driving fast but on the roads, not dirt, with common cars, and next with more sporty but still common cars(some hatchbacks-Cupra, Focus ST, Clio GT..and stock Impreza too. Clio with Impreza are the two more oversteerish, so...
You won't wear out your driveshafts as fast as a rally car, but if you're driving hard and/or have more torque going through them than they were designed for, definitely take a look at them once in a while.
Thank you very much. And always avoid the electronics interference, right?
Did anyone notice the heat marks on the outer from prob no greese
please hire me ! I am excellent at cleaning stuff !
RWD for the win.... Mad angle :)
Sooo, what's the difference between street and race car driveshafts?
Not much. Build quality
Material, custom application, cost, intended purpose that's a broad question.
#ProtectYourShaft
Wish you guys would have done some close ups. But cool video nonetheless.
I'd like to see a real Bendix CV joint...
just a little nugget of useless info, in Bahasa 'Tim' means Team, so Tim O'Neil means "team o'neil" to someone who speaks Bahasa :)
so your profile name would be Team Beck right?
Well I would appreciate greater steering angle in modern cars, it amazes me how it is easier to parallel park Volvo 940 (aircraftcarrier) in busy city or at stuffed yard than tiny C30. Every car is AWD (which actually doesn't turn rear wheels) nowdays anyways so it would be much of a journey to make RWD cars again, you get better economy, greater steering angles and more fun for the skilled (more death to stupid and collateral if everybody goes initial D).
AWD better in every way. Who gives a shit about steering angle in a street car lmao. I'd laugh at your RWD car when you'll try to accelerate from a standstill going uphill during winter. Enjoy my exhaust smell.
I broke the axle on my mercedes 300 while taking off from a green light...
brakes the spline section off of the ball socket then their is nothing holding the wheel hub and bearing together... rally use, get 800 miles out of a set so your throwing them in the trash every 300km?
Ive snapped an axel before, and the story isnt that exciting.
I live in NH too, was on an offramp in the snow, main road had been plowed already, spun the wheels a little at the light on the offramp, when the tire hit the pavement where it had been plowed better, the shaft kept spinning the the tire didnt.
My mechanic said hed never seen it before.
Sorry, guys, but that video was about three times longer than it needed to be with so much repetition and rambling.
Some points you missed were
The importance of using a GOOD quality CV grease due to the very high loadings on the components.
A basic precaution that can be used with driveshfts - when they are new draw a line along their length - sometimes a shft will fail catastrophically without warning but normally the shaft will twist first and the line will show this, a replacement would be a good idea with a 1/8 twist and certainly by the time it got to a 1/4, if it got that far. Shot peening will extend their service life, but may not be financially viable.
Some things to watch out for when cleaning the joints, if they are servicable, is if any discolouration is present (indicates hot running), any metallic particles (can indicate breaking up of the cage or other part) or any markings on the balls.
When purchased, the joints should be stripped, cleaned (not unknown for manufacturing debris to be left behind), inspected and, if budget allows, crack tested. Dry assemble the joint and check for tight points and, if they are present, polish them out with some W&D as they will affect the steering feel, add drag, and could cause hot spots - some teams will even replace the supplied balls with slightly undersized ones to minimise the joint friction.
Many/most vehicles have the steering stop between the stub axle/bearing carrier and wishbone or elsewhere, if so, it is much better to build that up than build a stop into the rack - especially if that is solidly mounted - as otherwise and hard impacts will be fed directly into the rack on lock, increasing the probability of a breakage there (a flexible material will help cushion this, though).
"GordoWG1 The Overkiller". Good points though, you definitely know your stuff.
I hope people realize that this applies to racing / heavy abuse application. Total overkill on a street car. Felt the need to clarify because I didn't realize I was on a rally racing channel lol
So im guessing theres no "Extra Angle" CV joints that we could purchase to allow for increased total angle? Allowing for more steering and more droop? Also, something ive wondered, is why drift cars will get massive angle but rally cars don't? cause i would assume axtra angle would be helpful in a rally as well. Is it just because a rally car has to put up with much more wheel vertical movement than a drift car and therefore the angles would be too great with extra steering angle?? thx
Colinator4321 I maybe wrong on this but I think it's different because drift cars are RWD,where the front wheels that handle steering aren't powered.The rear wheels always point straight.The angle kits I've seen allow greater steering angle at the front and not at the back.Being in flat asphalt also helps I guess.
Rally cars are different since most of them are FWD or AWD,meaning the front wheels that turn are also powered.This means there are CV joints in the front and they have to turn,droop aswell.
I think the scenarios are more closely related to drag or offroading since the CV joints in those suffer from the same loads.Drag with its hard launches,usually breaking axles and offroad with massive wheel droop and suspension travel
DavisSgt fair enough, makes sence. Thx
Exactly right, if you have a RWD car you can have as much steering angle as you want because there are no driveshafts in the front.
Team O'Neil Rally School ah rats, surprised no one has built a way to add extra angle up front when the front wheels are driven. Something like a triple joint axle would probably work. But that would be extremely complicated, expensive, and potentially in reliable.
3:50 duct tape death match ~ initial d's night kids. Kenji?
When repairing cv's, have plenty of brake cleaner or spray cans of degreaser on hand. Rags too. Ughh
52100 is ball bearing steel😁
Interesting. I wonder if anyone is working on AI that can predict part failure?
Can you all work on my car for your class project. I be most grateful.
Uhh, i really don't think propeller shaft is one of them, half shafts would be one of them though.
The driveshaft from the transmission to the rear diff is commonly called the prop shaft (propeller shaft, the shaft that propels the car), a half shaft would be one of the two driveshafts that go from the diff to each wheel (hence half shaft). Prop shaft is a little old-school and also much more common in the UK than here, but most of the best rally mechanics are from the UK... That's why you'll hear "gearbox" instead of transmission a lot, "sumpguard" instead of skidplate, "uprights" or "dampers" instead of shocks... It goes on and on
Torque snaps shafts, not power
So where are the solutions ?????
You put in a steering angle limiter, (which is unacceptable for a variety of reasons),
but you don't appear to be upgrading anything.
Do you really use stock parts on a race car ??
Fiesta R2 rally cars use a mix of the bigger Focus CV joints and the GKN motorsports shafts. That's plenty overkill for the ~200hp in this application, and limiting the steering angle (slightly) is something that is pretty necessary in most decent horsepower FWD rally cars to save the outer CV joints from exploding.
Are there other options? Yes.
Are they much more expensive? Yes.
Do they still break? Yes.
All these problems will be solved if you have a RWD.
Some, not all.
Wyatt seems to have ADHD.
Too much coffee as usual haha
Ford Fiesta, High horse power. Pick one, cuz we all know you cant have both.
Speak for yourself.
www.motor1.com/news/69542/tech-ride-ken-blocks-ford-fiesta-rs-rally-car/
no wonder front wheel drive cars drive so bad