The fact that the 260 remington never took off and the 6.5 creedmoor has exploded is a testament to marketing executives and the herd mentality. Funny how they are ballistically very similar but suffered very different fates in the commercial market.
Have a little 260 REM in a model 7 Remington. Beautiful little rifle. I’ve always said if the social media popularity was booming when the 260 came out, it’s popularity would have been through the roof
Social media or not- Remington screwed up the 260 with a 1-9" twist .Just like in the 1950's when screwed up the launch of the .244 Remington . They used a slow 1-12" on it and by the time they relaunched it as the 6mm Rem with a 1-9" twist, the 243 Winchester already had too much of the market..
@@JamesClark-lw6sw Cannot but agree, Mr. Clark. However, as I already have a couple of Swedish Mausers and a couple 6.5x54mm MS rifles, it's too late to get a .260 Rem and rebarrel it with a suitable twist barrel. Too soon old, too late smart.
Merry Christmas. I have a rifle in 260 rem. It is a custom rifle built on a Ruger Hawkeye SS action. It is a great rifle. The only real advantage I can see with the 260 rem is I have virtually unlimited access to brass. I can easily resize 308 brass to 260, but creedmore requires specific brass.
@@ronniepoteete5510 It sure is Ronnie. My 260 has a Shilen no 3 taper SS barrel. It is a very accurate rifle. Also put on a Timney trigger, glass bedded the action, free floated the barrel. She shoots.
If I didn't already have 6.5x55mm rifles (two to use and a couple collector items) I'd go for .260 Remington. The head size is convenient at the least.
Hey Tom great video! I have loaded and shot a little over 4,000 rounds between the 6.5 CM, 260 rem, and 6.5x55. They basically all three do the same thing. I’ve personally harvested 34 whitetails just between these three cartridges, and I can say there is not one single bit of difference between the three in on game performance! Not one bit at all. Here is my experience on these three chamberings for what it’s worth. 6.5x55- wonderful classic that has the case capacity to outrun the other two. Handloader only cartridge due to American factory loads being watered down terribly. Invest in quickload database, and and use reloading manual as a starting guideline and work up loads slowly. That’s mainly why I think this cartridge is better for experienced handloader. 260 Rem- great cartridge will say it struggles with 140 grain bullets in certain actions. The Abolt I had caused bullets to seat deeply taking up a lot of powder space due to the detachable mag on the older Abolt rifles. If you buy an older rifle almost all come in 1:9 twist which isn’t bad for hunting style bullets, careful though some came with a 1:10 twist like mine which was terrible. It only would stabilize one 140 gr bullet which was the old Hornady flat base spire point. It was lightning on deer with 120 gr nosler ballistic tips though, and extremely accurate with them. The 260 owes a lot to the creedmoor honestly because it gave it a resurgence and now they all come with 1:8 twist barrels and a lot more ammo choices. In 2006 when I owned the 260 there was only 2 or 3 factory loads I could find for it luckily I was a hand loader. Today so much more factory ammo for it. 6.5 creedmoor- if your not a handloader this is your cartridge! The amount of extremely accurate factory loads is honestly hard to fathom. If you do handload well almost anything I’ve ever thrown together has been extremely accurate in this cartridge. Its chamber tolerances are very tight, and I’ve owned 4 rifles in it that were absolute tack drivers. 260 rem and 6.5x55 chambers can vary a good bit in my experience from rifle to rifle. Some may not agree with my post, but felt the need to share my experience with these cartridges. I’ve loaded all three to 2800 fps with 140 grain hunting loads and all three were amazing whitetail cartridges. Just pick the one YOU want!
The 6.5 creed hit the market at just the right time and with the lighter recoil and Hornaday making the ammo easily available and the 1,000 yard snipers 🤔😳 were using it and making outrageous claims and CZcams claims and history is made! Great history lesson Tom! Being a gun collector for 6+ decades and hundreds of rifles and never seen a cartridge I didn’t like but some just more then others!
The 6.5 Creedmoor was introduced as a 1000 yard target cartridge. Hornady's video "Product Overview" from 2008 is still on CZcams and it didn't mention hunting. It was designed for High BC bullets with ogives too long for a SAAMI-length 260 Rem at 2.80". As Tom mentioned, it took almost a decade for the Creedmoor to catch on with the general public. For hunters, I agree that they are pretty much the same. I disagree about the popularity of the 6.5 CM being from CZcams, though. I think it was that more and more shooters started ringing steel at 600 - 1000 yards. It was easier to find good factory target ammo for the 6.5 Creedmoor. There was also some prestige to shooting a "target cartridge" that probably was a factor. The whole point of the 6.5 CM case being shorter was to allow a sleeker bullet with a longer ogive to be used in a 308 length action (limited to an OAL of about 2.83"). It is generally not an issue until you get to the long-range 140-150 grain class (lead core) bullets. That seems to be where the ogives of bullets designed specifically for the 6.5 CM get noticeably longer. The Hornady 147 ELD-M is an example. The shorter 140 grain ELD-M is the longest that will fit in a SAAMI-length 260. When you load the longer-ogived bullets in a 260, they wont fit in the magazines of some rifles. The difference mainly shows up well beyond 500 yards, or, in other words, beyond typical hunting distances. If you have a longer action and magazine, the 260 catches back up, provided the rifle can stabilize the longer bullets. Black Hills loads hunting and target ammo for both cartridges in their SAAMI forms. They can use the 147 ELM-M for the 6.5 CM but are limited to the 140grain for the 260 Rem. Interestingly, it is not uncommon for the 260 to be a little slower (typically about 50 fpm) than the 6.5 Creedmoor when factory loaded with the same bullet. Back when Black Hills loaded more 260 Rem ammo, it was more obvious. Despite the larger case, more of the bullet is in the powder compartment of the 260, so the useful powder capacities tend to be within a grain or so for bullets 120 grain and over.
Merry Christmas to everyone. I have a Ruger Compact in 260 Remington and have taken many whitetails with it. I got it mainly because no one else that I hunted with had one and I fell in love with it.
Great video Tom! Merry Christmas. I hunt in South Africa with another oldie- 6.5 Mauser aka 6.5x57 and sometimes with my other slightly more interesting 6 5. I bet it is the next round to be "invented"....except it also exists for nearly 100 years already. It is called 6.5x68 aka 6.5 Schuler. It will be called 6.5 Super or 6.5 Magnum. Or...6.5PRC😂😂😂. BTW. it is basically the norm here to use suppressors when hunting now. We still call them silencers though... Cheers Cobus Wessels
Merry Christmas.Thanks for talking about the old vs new.I will keep the old.260 rem,264 win mag,280 rem,25-06,ect..They do the job and no bling or modern bs.They (new) will learn..
Not a fan of the 6.5 creed I don’t see the need for new cartridges when the ones we have been using for decades are still doing the job and out performing a lot of the new stuff on a regular basis
Hi Tom, I just watched your video again today for the second time. Just as great. The second time is the first time. I just built a 260 Remington off of a Savage Axis long action. I can pull those Hornady 140 grain bullets out to a COL of 3 inches. It’s much easier to find 308 brass and just neck it down to 260. Very accurate and very easy on the shoulder. Keep up the great work. God bless.
The Creedmoor does have the advantage of keeping the bullet out of the neck-shoulder junction where donuts can form. I'm a fan of belt-less 7mm and have wanted a 280 Remington for some time now as a step up from my 7x57. I'll be looking forward to anything you have to share on it.
The 6.5x55 is ancient then lol. Basically all 3 are the same. I also have a vintage 80’s Remington 700 mountain rifle in 280 rem. As I get older I find myself carrying it more
As a reloader I prefer the .260 because of the vast amounts of brass to make the cartridge out of, .308, 7mm-08, .243 brass is quite plentiful. Enough said.
Merry Christmas Tom. God's blessings on you and your family. The story of the 260 and the 6.5CM cannot be told without telling the story of the 6.5x55 Swede should have been your lead in. 6.5 Swede loaded to modern specs outperforms both. Absolutely right about the popularity of the CM. Had the 6.5 Swede had the same advertisement and exposure as the CM, well, you know the rest. But it was a military cartridge first in Europe, then caught on with the hunting public and slowly gained a slight foothold here in the US but was never popular because we Americans don't like to say millimeter lol. I doubt the 30-06 would have been the cartridge it is today if it had been referred to as the 7.62x63 lol. Good video Tom. Cartridge makers have to keep the cash cow mooing so the need for new and better products keeps the younger folks excited lol.
I commented on your earlier video about accessories for your Christmas rifle. Mine arrived 2 days before Christmas and turned out to be a Weatherby Vanguard in 243 Winchester. Can’t wait to get it out to the range and start learning to drive it. Looking forward to seeing how your new rifle performs.
I have a Ruger M77 MKII in .260 Remington. It has a 1:8 inch twist. I love it and it has become my preferred deer, hog and black bear rifle. One interesting thing I noticed is that the guys who, for whatever reason hate the 6.5 Creedmoor like the fact I’m shooting the .260. As noted, they’re basically the same thing, but some guys just hate the 6.5.
As a 51 year old who’s been a gun nut since was 7. I appreciate and like your video. What ever happened to the 280 Remington, I always thought that was a great cartridge.
Merry Christmas Tom, congrats & welcome to the 280rem fan club. Bought my mod 700bdl stnls brand new in "97" great "obsolete" cartridge as im sure you know. Hard to beat a handloaded 7mm bullet loaded to it's true potential. Looking forward to some videos featuring your new 280rem!
Thank you, Tom.. idk if it was my comment. You read about doing a review on the 260, but thank you. I have a cpl 260 rifles one I just built in an AR10 rifle. I took it to northern Michigan and shot a nice 8 point with it. Merry Christmas & Happ New Years!
Merry Christmas Tom!! I'm living through this scenario with the 6mm Remington. My first deer rifle chambered in this cartridge built on a Mauser 98 action by my uncle for varmint hunting, but sold to my father to give to me as a deer hunting rifle. At the time it was competing with the 243 Winchester and lost. The 243 Winchester is still popular today, but these newer cartridges are coming on strong. Anyway, I still load for my 6mm and still use it to this day, but I also like new things too and right now the 7 PRC has my interest.
Cervus, I was just mentioning the 6mm Rem to someone. I was speculating that the 6.5x57 would probably be about perfect because it would probably pick up over 100 fps over the short action cartridges like the 6mm Rem did over the 243 because of the extra case capacity and if chambered in a long action rifle then bullet length issues due to magazine restrictions would a thing of the past.
@@TomRiverSimpleLiving yes, the 6mm Remington derived from the 7mm x 57 Mauser and the 257 Roberts has that case capacity like the 6.5x57 for the extra powder and thus the 100 fps extra velocity. Remington just missed their opportunity with marketing in my opinion. They changed the twist rate early enough in the late 50's to a 1:9, but did not change the ammunition and continued to only produce the 75 and 90 grain in the 244 Remington. It wasn't until 63 along with the intro of the Remington 700 that they rebranded the 244 Remington to the 6mm Remington as well offered the 100 grain ammo loads, but the Winchester 243 was so far ahead in the marketing of their 24 caliber that Remington could just never catch up. With the introduction of the new 700 Remington, I'd love to see someone introduce a 6mm Express, 6mm LR, 6mm PRC s etc. with the same cambering as the 6mm Remington except extend the throat a bit and have a twist rate of perhaps 1:7 to accommodate the longer high BC projectiles of 115 to 120 grain. This would make for a great duel purpose rifle (target and hunting) Maybe varmint too depending on what people need to shoot projectile weight wise.
Merry Christmas nice video . Kinda funny I’m 64 and have a 6.5 creed. My son who is 34 has a .260 rem. I bought him the model 7 Remington for his first rifle at age 10. He wouldn’t sell or trade it for anything.
It's funny for me to because I never did get a 260 but I do have a 6.5 Creedmoor now and I chose that because the brass was so much easier to find and cheaper than 260. Plus I couldn't get the rifle I got in 260.
I have 2 260 remingtons. 1 bolt, 1 ar10. No creedmoor. I would put both up against any 6.5 creedmoor. They shoot 140s lights out and 130gr sig elite hunter just drops whitetails in their tracks. I'm glad to see someone put it straight for the 2 calibers. Merry Christmas and happy new year.
For hunters, two groups to be divided into. Hand loaders and strictly factory ammo shooters. 6.5x55 U.S. factory ammo is relatively anemic because of low SAAMI MAP. If you want to shoot a low recoiling inexpensive 6.5 for deer or whatever go ahead and get a Creedmoor. It has been proven to work. If you hand load, the 6.5x55 when loaded to it’s real capacity in a strong bolt action (not a Krag-Jorgensen) will leave the Creedmoor in the dust,especially with the heavier longer bullets 140 and 160 grain weights. I have one of the Sporterized by Kimber Carl Gustaf M96 6.5x55. All the Swedish Mausers, both Carl Gustaf and Husqvarna 6.5x55’s were proof tested to almost 63,000 psi. Case capacity wins here. The longer action M96 and M98 actions allows the bullet to be seated farther out to take full advantage of the Swede’s case capacity. If you’re one who can’t stand the thought of shooting anything with Creedmoor in its name AND you want a short action rifle then find yourself a 260 Remington. You probably won’t easily find brass for it, but you can form it from easy to find .243 Winchester cases. If Winchester had been able to see the future, they probably would have standardized the 6.5mm-08 and the 6.5 Creedmoor probably would never have come to exist. If you want to shoot a hotter 6.5, look at the 6.5-284 Norma or better yet the 6.5-06. Merry Christmas and happy hunting boys and girls!😊
Thanks for your Christmas blessing and for the fine video. I bought a ruger 77 - 11 in .260 Rem and it's the only rifle I have scoped myself with. Where I live in NZ ammo costs so much and I am happy to say all my brass is either 243 or 7mm08 it is so easy to correct to 260. I was looking for brass in Ohio wher I bought it and needless to say due to hunting regs bottle-neck cases are a no go. But when I asked a gent in a gunstore about brass he got so excited and spoke of the virtue of the 260 as a 1000 yard cartridge, that it surpassed the .300 Win mag at 1000 yds. I haven't used it past 100 and that on goats mostly. I now make sure I have a tight hold on it when swinging from one target to another for a quick shot. Thank again for you easy listening discussions.
I have a .260 t3 tac tikka & I love it I had several 260s over the years including a 700 mountain rifle that shot 140grs in a hole wish I had it back but had to have a 270wsm i can't complain about it either 😊1 reason i got the 260 t3 tac was I already had the dies lol some times that old comes in handy
It'll be like the .264 mag. I think you are right on the big scopes...heavy guns etc. I just ordered a light howa and a scope with a 32mm objective. Had back surgery #4 on Dec 13th, heavy stuff is out. Absolutely loved the video. I want something in .280 eventually. I may barrel a model 70 in that. Merry Christmas!
Merry Christmas to the River family. Really enjoyed this episode. As a keen owner of both the 7mm-08 and 243 win (used exclusively for deer hunting in Australia), I have a soft spot in my heart for the 260 rem but don't really need one. Selling my 243 as the 7mm-08 does everything I need, and it will eliminate the risk of a stupid, avoidable accident with the ammunition. I am always extremely careful with my ammo, but 243 and 7mm-08 are similar at a glance - and I only need to make a stupid, stupid error once if I'm tired, cold, hungry and not concentrating.
TrailerYacht, I had that same concern for a moment with me just getting this 280 and already having a 270 and 30-06 but then realized that it would be hard to mix them up. The main concern would be putting a larger caliber in a smaller bore but I don't think a 7mm would even chamber in a .243 because of the bullet diameter being so much larger (but that might be worth checking?) and I don't think a smaller diameter cartridge fired in a larger diameter bore would be a problem either? I've heard of people accidentally firing 243 in 7mm-08 without issue other than really scaring the person that did it. I know they also made the shoulder slightly longer on the 270 and longer still on the 280 just so they wouldn't chamber in a 30-06 by accident but I'm not sure about the short actions? But either way it's good that you aware of our ability to make mistakes and are concerned about being as safe as possible.
Merry Christmas everyone🎄 Well the gun and ammo manufacturers couldn’t just bring back in the 260 REM , because people always think something new is going to be better it’s just all marketing ploy , look now we have the 6.5 PRC , a lot of people will think something newer is always better and 270 Winchester , 308 win and 30-06 spr will cover nearly almost everything
A friend of mine passed away about 7 years ago and I ended up buying his 6.5-06 Rem 700 which got me a lil wildcat and helped his widow out. Being a target shooter I hand loaded it and shot it routinely out to 600 yds. After shooting my 40X 7.62 NATO target rifle which was using only 42.5 gr of Varget I decided shooting the 6.5-06 using 52 gr was nothing more than an added expense. An old military armorer friend mentioned I could easily ream that 700 to a 6.5-08 and have a nice shooting rifle. It was already shooting well so I wasn't up to spending money on another reamer but he said he had one and would recut the chamber and rethread the barrel. When he got done he handed me a rifle and said, "you now have a .260 Remington". I broke it in the old fashion way. 1 shot, clean, 1 shot, clean, until I no longer had any copper fouling. I ended up retiring right after, ended up moving then had a heart attack and this summer I plan to work up a nice load for it. Some of the Creedmore shooters tried telling me my .260 was a poor man's target gun. LOL Edited to add the 6.5-06 uses a long action and so does my 6.5-08/.260. :)
Dear Tom, very good video, I use the 6,5x57R in my bespoke build cape gun. They did it in Suhl, Thüringen in Germany fifteen years ago. The shotgun barrel is chambered in 28ga. Paul Mauser introduced this cartridge in 1893, so I think this is old, very old. The muzzle energie is just 10% lower than those of the 6,5CM, so I don‘t care. Happy new year!
Recently picked up a Rem 700 chambered in 280 Remington. Came to look for ammo... and no one had any. Good thing I hand load. However, came to look for brass... and no one had any. Finally got some 1x-fired brass off of Gunbroker.
I am glad the 6.5 came along as it increased the variety of bullets I can use in my 260s. With lighter bullets I can squeeze a lot more velocity for varmints. If I want to improve, I can AI the 260. If I want a heavy bullet for efficiency in long distance shooting I throat my 260AI and approach a 6.5 PRC. I look at brass that is being made currently in 260 Rem for reloaders is plentiful. Last time at the range with a straight 260 I was getting 10fps es with a 105 grain bullet at a mild 3130 fps. I do another old thing too. I moly coat my bullets. Great video and my God bless you. By the way I have quite a few 280 brass around too!!
6.5 fanaticism has infected the reloader community since the 6.5 Krag. About every 20 years the infection returns. shouldering aside 25 Caliber and 7 mm. then it goes away and nobody missed it. 6.5 Krag short AI had the exact same capacity.
To me, new and interesting means; my knowledge and experience with this rifle is limited, and I don't know what to expect. I'd rather have a rifle that has been ran through it's paces, and leaves nothing to guess at. Feeds, fires, and extracts, every time. That's a fine rifle you got there, Tom. I hope it leaves nothing to guess at for you. May you and your family have a blessed, and peaceful Christmas.
Remington has a way of bringing out great cartridges and letting them die on the vine. They don't have a very good idea of what people want. When Winchester came out with the .243 they offered it in the model 70. Eye candy. When Remington brought out the .244, they offered it in the plain old 722. I don't believe the .244 was a less effective cartridge. There a few more examples. 7mm-08 in the 788 rifle. Huh? 6.5 Remington magnum in the 600 Remington space gun. The 7mm express Remington was confused with the 7mm Remington magnum by a few shooters. By the way I am loading up some .257 Robert's ammo. That one doesn't require CZcams for me to know know about. Merry Christmas to all!
I picked the 260 remington for the fact I can neck down the 308 brass. I will always have brass for the cartridge. The 6.5 Swede was the first 6.5 that I wanted ,but never got.
I love this video. So much hype about new calibres. Getting good research and data is hard when comparing calibres for use. Form follows function. What do you want to do to achieve your outcomes? Hunting or targets, long range or close, open terrain or thick bush. Finding one calibre to do it all seems difficult if you have a limited budget. In australia .260 factory seems hard to get, 6.5mm ammo is very expensive. Reloading is a budget focussed direction to enjoy the calibre of choice and save money. Your discussion of these issues is fantastic. Thankyou.
It’s funny you talking about the creedmore that Hornaday made a hit with all the ammo available then your new 700 in 280 which just so happens to be Steve Hornaday favorite cartridge!
I have the magazine article that Guns And Ammo did on the .260 when it was released. I called my gunsmith in Refugio Texas to see if he had a reamer and he did so I ordered a short chambered barrel right away and he fit it in a 98 Mauser action for me. I bought dies and couldn't find brass the first I had was formed from .308 then I started buying the correct brass. I ended up having two built one went to a friend of mine and I kept the other one but didn't shoot it for many years. I handloaded for my friends rifle the entire time he hunted with it unfortunately he was in a tractor accident and lost his life. I started doing load development five years ago for mine and to this day has never been hunting. I tried selling it last year but never got an interested buyer. It just isn't too popular ammunition is hard to find and expensive. I also have a 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser that was my only hunting rifle for years and I still have it. I did buy a 6.5 Creedmoor just because my neighbors grandson got one and wanted to handload for it. I bought all the dies and components for loading Creedmoor and he decided it just wasn't really his favorite rifle. He didn't come out and say it but shot his last deer with his 30-06, I figured the love affair was over. I had all this brass and dies so I bought one. Do I regret it? No not at all, just another tool in my toolbox.
I've had 2 different 260's through the years and I just can't remember ever being able to do with it what I can do with my creedmoor. However it is a great cartridge without a doubt.
25 December 2023: Merry Christmas, by the way. What you point out, Mr River, is formally called ' a difference without a distinction'. Two 'items' - things or arguments - that have minor differences in structure or formulation, but are functionally equivalent. I completely agree and have - without much effect - argued that fact for a couple years now. If I may - and no one seems able to stop me - I will point out a couple bit of slightly different perspective. I rather like the 6.5x55mm Swedish cartridge. Except for the odd head size. I have a couple and between 200 and 27 pounds of ammunition. Plus reloading dies and assorted components. If I didn't have all that stock, I would choose the .260 Remington. Has the standard Mauser/Springfield head size. Fits in a short to middle length action. Fits in an action rated for more pressure than the initial - weaker - Mauser action. It is in my mind the ideal modern upgrade to the 6.5x55mm round. Except Remington thought no one would want to use the 160 grain (10 gram/ 154 grain original) bullet but the 140 grain. So the 'accepted' twist rate is slower than needed to stabilize the heavier bullet. However, the faster twist rate will stabilize the lighter bullets as well. :silent scream: Later, as you said, came the 6.5 Creedmoor with a bigger publicity campaign and flashier advertising. Much ado with no real substance. Good for middle sized game. Ignored is W. D. M. Bell's killing of 300 elephants with a 6.5x54mm Mannlicher Schoenauer. That cartridge having much the same bullet and velocity as the 6.5x55mm. Not that one can legally use the .260 Rem on elephant and African buffalo with impunity, but it will likely dispatch a Moose, if correctly applied. All differences of opinion aside, I like your knowledge, your style and your videos. And I think I'm a bit older. And I serve the same Lord. Amen.
OldMan, I wish a had studied philosophy more because there are a lot of things now that I suspect would make more sense viewed through a philosophical lense? I've also always been humbled by how logical our Lord's statements were. And I've thought for years that a 6.5x57 +P loaded to modern pressures would be about perfect? Standard head size and if chambered in a long action rifle then magazine length would no longer be a concern. The extra case capacity over the standard short action cases would allow for extra velocity but it still wouldn't be terribly overbore like the 6.5-06. Sort of like the 6mm Rem vs 243. But I can't imagine that ever becoming very popular?
@@TomRiverSimpleLiving First: The Lord has given you a good mind with the ability to grasp a concept, problem or idea and wrestle it to the ground. Which happens to be the basis of 'philosophy' in the broader sense. The Lord has seemingly given me a push in that direction, which was sharpened by practice when I worked as a federal lawman and constantly had to be prepared for court testimony. Not to mention the ability to pick out potential suspects. Enough horn tooting. Yes. The 6.5x57mm Mauser or RWS would be just dandy. It was developed about the same time as the 6.5x55mm, but the Swede was adopted by the Swedish military and the 6.5x57mm was never a military round. So the 57 version did not get the same publicity. (I think.) But a '98 Mauser (or derivative) action with a good barrel of 1:7 twist would have - in my mind - outrun the 6.5 Swede and made the .260 Rem nearly unnecessary. Yeah. I didn't think of that one. But like the others mentioned, it's older and not cool. Too many current shooters seek high velocities and perceived 'progress'.
Congrats on receiving such a nice Christmas gift! Looking forward to seeing how it shoots! Most importantly, It's fantastic to see you share the great news of our savior, Jesus Christ!!!!! God's Blessings to you and yours!!
I agree with you on the 260 Remington and it does seem on its way out. It is a fine Deer Cartridge. I had one in a Remington Model 7 at one time and sold it to a friend. Regret it to this day. That rifle shot very well and my young son took a deer at a measured 366 yards on a power line right of way. The 6.5 Creedmor just never interested me, I guess it was all the marketing hype that sorta turned me off. Besides, I always kinda leaned towards the classic calibers anyway. And speaking of a classic, that 280 cartridge is a superb round. Yes, it may be hard to find ammo for but it does so many things well. I helped a young teenager with his first deer rifle and I found a Remington 700 chambered in 280. It was on the used rack and a friends gun shop. I was allowed to take that rifle to the range and see how it shot. Man, it was a shooter!! I even zeroed that rifle while there and saved the target. I took it back to the gun shop and they held it until his Mother could come in and purchase it. Also bought two boxes of ammo of the same that the rifle was zeroed with. He still has that rifle to this very day and has taken many deer over the years with it. Gotta love the Classics. Thanks for sharing, God Bless and Happy New Year to you and your family!!
I have a 260 AI built on rhe South African made RSA single target action. I shoot 143grn ELDX a around 2870fps and can print a clover leaf hole at 100m anytime.
Think of it like the 45-70 being at the end of the first generation of cartridges. Bullets shaped like slugs moving slow dew to powder technology. Invention of smokeless powder and spitzer bullets enter generation two and the fast and flat shooting cartridges. 260 was at the end of this generation. Scopes become more popular, shots can now be made much further away. Affordable range finders and scopes that can be dialed making way for generation 3. The Creedmoor was one of the first cartridges designed to take advantage of these technologies. Now look at all the cartridges modelled after it. Is a 6.8 Western not a scaled up 6.5creed?! What's good about the high bc heavy bullets is the wind deflection, were range is defeated easily by dialing at a known range. Merry Christmas Tom 🍻
Kyle, I love that analogy of the 260 being the end of Gen2 and I agree that we are entering Gen 3 but I don't think that the cartridges themselves are a part of that? I actually mentioned the advent of laser ranger finders in this video but edited it out because I was starting to go down a different rabbit hole and I was trying to keep this from going on for an hour. Like you pointed out there was a big change going from the old straight walled black powder cartridges to bottle neck smokeless powder cartridges but there was an actual change in performance there. The changes today that actually make a difference are for everything except for the cartridge like twist rate and laser range finders. I don't see the 6.5 Creedmoor as actually being a change from the 260? You can load longer high b.c. bullets without seating them deeper into the case and taking away powder capacity but they already took away that little bit of powder capacity to move the shoulder back. And I can't see any advantage to trying to squeeze every new cartridge into a short action except for maybe saving the rifle manufactures a few dollars in material? I also don't see a lot of the changes as being of any real benefit to hunters? I can see it being of benefit to guys shooting F class at 1000 yards but for hunters there has to be a maximum ethical range for hunting. What that is will vary from person to person but I can't imagine anything over 500 yards or 600 max being ethical for hunters shooting in field conditions. And there aren't that many people capable of shooting well enough, including myself, for even those ranges to be ethical without a bench or some type of support. And that's in ideal conditions with zero wind. So there has to be a point at which twist rate and BC have done all they can do and we're just at the limit of a person's ability to confidently know they can always hit vitals on a game animal at whatever distance. I think any changes past that are just for target shooters and that we have long since reached that point for hunters? And at this point I'm wondering down another rabbit hole again! LOL But this is an interesting topic and again I love your analogy of us entering gen3.
@@TomRiverSimpleLiving it's definitely about the cartridges themselves. 260 vs 6.5cm, 7rm vs 7prc, 270wsm vs 6.8west. all doing exactly the same. Pushing the shoulder back, pushing the walls out and properly seating a heavy for caliber slick bullet. This to me is what I'm calling generation 3 cartridge design.
@@kylemartin832 In no way can you compare the transition from 45-70 to 6.5 Swede or 7x57 etc….. to the difference between the 260 vs the creedemoore. There simply IS NOT that big of a difference! Especially, as Tom said, to real hunters. I was about 18 or 19 when the short magnums and the ultra magnums and the ultra short magnums came to market. They were pretty exciting at the time to a hunter my age. Luckily, I never bought one. Where are they now? The 300wsm looks like it might hang on. The rest? Doesn’t look good. I have a feeling most of these new age cartridges will suffer the same fate. Do they offer higher performance? Yes they do. Is it revolutionary? Not even close.
@@mildbill222well, the 6.5x55 Swed (a favorite of mine) started with a round nose 160gr moving pretty slow. Very similar to the first generation of metallic cartridges heavy and slow. Took 2 decades before the spitzer style pills were used. Real hunters? What's that? Like my uncle that thinks hitting a pie plate at 100 is good enough. Or the "minute of deer" saying that makes me cringe. Give me a break with the "real hunter" bs. I'm glad you brought up the short magnums. What did they bring to the table? More velocity and more recoil with the same bullets. So, lighter bullets moving fast to defeat drop is what generation 2 of cartridge was all about. The 260 was designed around a 130gr bullet going as fast as possible (gen2 theory) using a 1-9 twist. The Creed was designed for the heavier 140gr with a 1-8 less velocity but a much more slippery bullet. Two completely different design philosophies. The difference in the three generations is the way we utilize bullets. Gen1, slow and heavy. Gen2, light and fast. Gen3 is all about efficiency. A perfect example of this is 6ARC. The efficiency of that round is simple amazing. So, if you think these new guys on the block aren't going to stick around because of the short magnums of the 90s I'll remind you Remington and Winchester still struggle to release new cartridges. Example 6.8 Western. Excellent cartridge with a terrible launch and little support.
History shows us that many cartridges are not marketed correctly. I always thought the 270 Winchester would make a great target cartridge as well as a hunting cartridge. The 280 Remington is an excellent cartridge that never got the credit it deserved.
. ?Will common sense ever come to play in the marketing of rifles and cartridges? I doubt it. Yes, I bought a tikka in 260 Remington and yes, it does well off a bench. . But. When I go to the Field I take my 270. Why? It steadies up faster than a lightweight 260, it hits harder at any angle, and the bullets are about the same. I tried to love 6.5’s but there is nothing they do in the field, hunting, that my 30-06 or my 270 hasn’t done. 6.5’s really really work but any cartridge based on a 308 Winchester, you pick one, will do the same.
The 260 was a target cartridge first developed for Metallic Silhouette shooters. It provided lower recoil and sufficient power to topple 500-meter steel ram targets. It was a wildcat based on the 308 case the same as the 7-mm 308 wildcat. Target shooting cartridges often convert to hunting cartridges. All it takes is seeing a cartridge winning matches to see target shooter switching to a new cartridge. However, bullets for target matches are not hunting bullets. Hitting steel targets at long ranges is much different from hunting game. I have to wonder if a bullet will perform the same at short distances as at long distances. That issue is important to consider. 🤔
A lot of good points there Gizmo. And I was just pondering earlier about what the maximum ethical range is for taking a shot at a game animal and I was thinking specifically about so many shooting steel at whatever range and then thinking that means it's ok to shoot at game animals that far. And you are spot on about how a bullet will perform at different distances.
Something that also occurred to me. The 6.5 Creed is very popular in South Africa for LR target shooting and plains game hunting. The .260 Rem is practically unknown. Maybe it caught on partly because it has a "cool" name. Remington has had some bad luck with the .244/6mm Rem and the .280/7mm Express, offset I guess by the success of the 7mm RM and .25-06. As for the .280 Rem, I read an article in Guns & Ammo (I think) in the mid 70's about forgotten calibres - the 16ga, the .38 Super (before it was "rediscovered" by competition shooters) and the .280 Rem. It is the ballistic twin of the 1917 7x64 Brenneke, and as I had a VZ24/M98 Mauser action, I had a gun shop import a Douglas Premium barrel in .280 Rem. This rifle has a 1:10 twist and has turned out to be all I wanted, with that little edge over the .270 with the heavier bullets. Good luck with your .280 and Happy New Year!
If I wanted to buy another 6.5mm firearm I would buy a .260 Rem because I don't want to add another unique to me cartridge to support with ammo. Ammo is the most expensive part of a shooting rig over time. I bought a Remington 700VLS chambered in .260 Rem in 1997. It's a great rifle. .260 Remington is is a very good caliber. Am I a fan? No, but 6.5 Creed has no attraction for me. I'm not a fanboy of the the .260 Remington like I am a fanboy of .25-06 and the .243 Winchester. It's all good - you pays your money and you takes your choice.
Hornaday has been responsible for more long range wounded game then all the other ammo manufactures🤔😳 pushing for long range hunting doesn’t make you a man hunting within proper range for an ethical shot does🤔😳 just my opinion after 60+ years of hunting reloading and being a gun collector and seeing what the long range has turned the great outdoor sport into🤔😳🥲
Looking forward to the 280 load development. Spent the last year loading, shooting, and hunting with a 280. Curious what powders and velocities you'll use and get.
The difference is money spent on advertising and i am guilty of not knowing the differences til i started reading more just believed what i heard good show
The 260 is truly overlooked and with all the new calibers coming out, I would dare say the 327 federal magnum is the best on due to the versatility in a revolver and lever action rifle shooting a 32 long colt to 327 federal magnum too bad it didnt catch on. What are your thoughts on a comparison of the 45 long colt vs 44 magnum in lever action rifles and reloading .
There is a huge difference for me. I’ve never seen 260 rem or 6.5 Swede, rifle or ammo or heard of them until the creedmoor got popular and the haters started coming out. Maybe it’s small town Mississippi syndrome where 30-30, 308, 270, 30-06 ruled the roost. Shopping at a big store like bass pro is an all day full tank of gas road trip. 6.5 creedmoor is everywhere here now and the 260 and Swede are still not present. I waited 10 years after its release and got a ruger in 6.5 creedmoor and I love it. I thank hornady advertising for popularizing the creedmoor and getting it into every corner store here. P.S. still only know one person who claims to have a 280, never seen him bring it out. Merry Christmas!!!
The fact that the 260 remington never took off and the 6.5 creedmoor has exploded is a testament to marketing executives and the herd mentality. Funny how they are ballistically very similar but suffered very different fates in the commercial market.
Have a little 260 REM in a model 7 Remington. Beautiful little rifle. I’ve always said if the social media popularity was booming when the 260 came out, it’s popularity would have been through the roof
Affirm.
I have a model 7 260 also. I use the Federal Premium 140 grain Sierra GameKing, and it drops them in their tracks!
@@hillbilly03richardson61 Ballistics much like the 6.5x55mm Swede; should work a treat!
Social media or not- Remington screwed up the 260 with a 1-9" twist .Just like in the 1950's when screwed up the launch of the .244 Remington . They used a slow 1-12" on it and by the time they relaunched it as the 6mm Rem with a 1-9" twist, the 243 Winchester already had too much of the market..
@@JamesClark-lw6sw Cannot but agree, Mr. Clark. However, as I already have a couple of Swedish Mausers and a couple 6.5x54mm MS rifles, it's too late to get a .260 Rem and rebarrel it with a suitable twist barrel. Too soon old, too late smart.
Merry Christmas. I have a rifle in 260 rem. It is a custom rifle built on a Ruger Hawkeye SS action. It is a great rifle. The only real advantage I can see with the 260 rem is I have virtually unlimited access to brass. I can easily resize 308 brass to 260, but creedmore requires specific brass.
The 260 REM. Is a very accurate round in most good rifles!
No harder to make creedmoore from 308 than the 260 rem is.
Cool... still not interested in creedmore
@@joegreen4089 Hi Joe. To my surprise it can be done, but it is not easy from what I can see on youtube. Good luck. MH
@@ronniepoteete5510 It sure is Ronnie. My 260 has a Shilen no 3 taper SS barrel. It is a very accurate rifle. Also put on a Timney trigger, glass bedded the action, free floated the barrel. She shoots.
I'd much rather have the 260 over the 6.5 any day . I'm just not gonna drink from the Creedmoor punch 😊
Why? Just because many people hate it?? Ok makes sense
Because it isn't appreciably better @titomish5914
If I didn't already have 6.5x55mm rifles (two to use and a couple collector items) I'd go for .260 Remington. The head size is convenient at the least.
Enjoy your videos. I'm a fan of the 6.5x55 and the .260
Hey Tom great video! I have loaded and shot a little over 4,000 rounds between the 6.5 CM, 260 rem, and 6.5x55. They basically all three do the same thing. I’ve personally harvested 34 whitetails just between these three cartridges, and I can say there is not one single bit of difference between the three in on game performance! Not one bit at all. Here is my experience on these three chamberings for what it’s worth.
6.5x55- wonderful classic that has the case capacity to outrun the other two. Handloader only cartridge due to American factory loads being watered down terribly. Invest in quickload database, and and use reloading manual as a starting guideline and work up loads slowly. That’s mainly why I think this cartridge is better for experienced handloader.
260 Rem- great cartridge will say it struggles with 140 grain bullets in certain actions. The Abolt I had caused bullets to seat deeply taking up a lot of powder space due to the detachable mag on the older Abolt rifles. If you buy an older rifle almost all come in 1:9 twist which isn’t bad for hunting style bullets, careful though some came with a 1:10 twist like mine which was terrible. It only would stabilize one 140 gr bullet which was the old Hornady flat base spire point. It was lightning on deer with 120 gr nosler ballistic tips though, and extremely accurate with them. The 260 owes a lot to the creedmoor honestly because it gave it a resurgence and now they all come with 1:8 twist barrels and a lot more ammo choices. In 2006 when I owned the 260 there was only 2 or 3 factory loads I could find for it luckily I was a hand loader. Today so much more factory ammo for it.
6.5 creedmoor- if your not a handloader this is your cartridge! The amount of extremely accurate factory loads is honestly hard to fathom. If you do handload well almost anything I’ve ever thrown together has been extremely accurate in this cartridge. Its chamber tolerances are very tight, and I’ve owned 4 rifles in it that were absolute tack drivers. 260 rem and 6.5x55 chambers can vary a good bit in my experience from rifle to rifle.
Some may not agree with my post, but felt the need to share my experience with these cartridges. I’ve loaded all three to 2800 fps with 140 grain hunting loads and all three were amazing whitetail cartridges. Just pick the one YOU want!
I think 260 Rem is rare enough to have a cool factor , 6.5 is so common its old news , Merry Christmas Everyone !
The 6.5 creed hit the market at just the right time and with the lighter recoil and Hornaday making the ammo easily available and the 1,000 yard snipers 🤔😳 were using it and making outrageous claims and CZcams claims and history is made! Great history lesson Tom! Being a gun collector for 6+ decades and hundreds of rifles and never seen a cartridge I didn’t like but some just more then others!
The 6.5 Creedmoor was introduced as a 1000 yard target cartridge. Hornady's video "Product Overview" from 2008 is still on CZcams and it didn't mention hunting. It was designed for High BC bullets with ogives too long for a SAAMI-length 260 Rem at 2.80". As Tom mentioned, it took almost a decade for the Creedmoor to catch on with the general public. For hunters, I agree that they are pretty much the same. I disagree about the popularity of the 6.5 CM being from CZcams, though. I think it was that more and more shooters started ringing steel at 600 - 1000 yards. It was easier to find good factory target ammo for the 6.5 Creedmoor. There was also some prestige to shooting a "target cartridge" that probably was a factor.
The whole point of the 6.5 CM case being shorter was to allow a sleeker bullet with a longer ogive to be used in a 308 length action (limited to an OAL of about 2.83"). It is generally not an issue until you get to the long-range 140-150 grain class (lead core) bullets. That seems to be where the ogives of bullets designed specifically for the 6.5 CM get noticeably longer. The Hornady 147 ELD-M is an example. The shorter 140 grain ELD-M is the longest that will fit in a SAAMI-length 260. When you load the longer-ogived bullets in a 260, they wont fit in the magazines of some rifles. The difference mainly shows up well beyond 500 yards, or, in other words, beyond typical hunting distances. If you have a longer action and magazine, the 260 catches back up, provided the rifle can stabilize the longer bullets.
Black Hills loads hunting and target ammo for both cartridges in their SAAMI forms. They can use the 147 ELM-M for the 6.5 CM but are limited to the 140grain for the 260 Rem. Interestingly, it is not uncommon for the 260 to be a little slower (typically about 50 fpm) than the 6.5 Creedmoor when factory loaded with the same bullet. Back when Black Hills loaded more 260 Rem ammo, it was more obvious. Despite the larger case, more of the bullet is in the powder compartment of the 260, so the useful powder capacities tend to be within a grain or so for bullets 120 grain and over.
Merry Christmas to everyone. I have a Ruger Compact in 260 Remington and have taken many whitetails with it. I got it mainly because no one else that I hunted with had one and I fell in love with it.
Love mine. Same one. Wood blue m77
Merry Christmas. Ive wanted a 260 rem for awhile now it would be a great deer hunting cartridge.
Great video Tom! Merry Christmas. I hunt in South Africa with another oldie- 6.5 Mauser aka 6.5x57 and sometimes with my other slightly more interesting 6 5. I bet it is the next round to be "invented"....except it also exists for nearly 100 years already. It is called 6.5x68 aka 6.5 Schuler. It will be called 6.5 Super or 6.5 Magnum. Or...6.5PRC😂😂😂. BTW. it is basically the norm here to use suppressors when hunting now. We still call them silencers though...
Cheers
Cobus Wessels
Merry Christmas.Thanks for talking about the old vs new.I will keep the old.260 rem,264 win mag,280 rem,25-06,ect..They do the job and no bling or modern bs.They (new) will learn..
Not a fan of the 6.5 creed I don’t see the need for new cartridges when the ones we have been using for decades are still doing the job and out performing a lot of the new stuff on a regular basis
Very well thought out. Merry Christmas!
Hi Tom, I just watched your video again today for the second time. Just as great. The second time is the first time. I just built a 260 Remington off of a Savage Axis long action. I can pull those Hornady 140 grain bullets out to a COL of 3 inches. It’s much easier to find 308 brass and just neck it down to 260. Very accurate and very easy on the shoulder. Keep up the great work. God bless.
Good conversation Tom, thank you. Merry Christmas....
The Creedmoor does have the advantage of keeping the bullet out of the neck-shoulder junction where donuts can form. I'm a fan of belt-less 7mm and have wanted a 280 Remington for some time now as a step up from my 7x57. I'll be looking forward to anything you have to share on it.
Merry Christmas Tom and thank you for your videos!
Merry Christmas!
Love your videos.
Merry Christmas good sir and thank you!
John
Merry Christmas to you and your family too, Tom
The 6.5x55 is ancient then lol. Basically all 3 are the same. I also have a vintage 80’s Remington 700 mountain rifle in 280 rem. As I get older I find myself carrying it more
As a reloader I prefer the .260 because of the vast amounts of brass to make the cartridge out of, .308, 7mm-08, .243 brass is quite plentiful. Enough said.
You realize that the 260 rem is a fairly New cartridge that has already faded away it was a good round like the 25-06 and the 35 whelan both are good
Merry Christmas Tom. God's blessings on you and your family. The story of the 260 and the 6.5CM cannot be told without telling the story of the 6.5x55 Swede should have been your lead in. 6.5 Swede loaded to modern specs outperforms both. Absolutely right about the popularity of the CM. Had the 6.5 Swede had the same advertisement and exposure as the CM, well, you know the rest. But it was a military cartridge first in Europe, then caught on with the hunting public and slowly gained a slight foothold here in the US but was never popular because we Americans don't like to say millimeter lol. I doubt the 30-06 would have been the cartridge it is today if it had been referred to as the 7.62x63 lol. Good video Tom. Cartridge makers have to keep the cash cow mooing so the need for new and better products keeps the younger folks excited lol.
Amen brother. Merry Christmas to you and yours.
That's a great looking rifle. Merry Christmas Me Tom
I commented on your earlier video about accessories for your Christmas rifle. Mine arrived 2 days before Christmas and turned out to be a Weatherby Vanguard in 243 Winchester. Can’t wait to get it out to the range and start learning to drive it. Looking forward to seeing how your new rifle performs.
I have a Ruger M77 MKII in .260 Remington. It has a 1:8 inch twist. I love it and it has become my preferred deer, hog and black bear rifle. One interesting thing I noticed is that the guys who, for whatever reason hate the 6.5 Creedmoor like the fact I’m shooting the .260. As noted, they’re basically the same thing, but some guys just hate the 6.5.
Merry Christmas to you and yours, Tom Rivers.
As a 51 year old who’s been a gun nut since was 7. I appreciate and like your video. What ever happened to the 280 Remington, I always thought that was a great cartridge.
Common theories for lack of success for the 280 are bad marketing and slow twist rates.
Merry Christmas Tom, s always I enjoyed the video!
Merry Christmas Tom, congrats & welcome to the 280rem fan club. Bought my mod 700bdl stnls brand new in "97" great "obsolete" cartridge as im sure you know. Hard to beat a handloaded 7mm bullet loaded to it's true potential. Looking forward to some videos featuring your new 280rem!
Thank you, Tom.. idk if it was my comment. You read about doing a review on the 260, but thank you. I have a cpl 260 rifles one I just built in an AR10 rifle. I took it to northern Michigan and shot a nice 8 point with it. Merry Christmas & Happ New Years!
And a Merry Christmas to you too sir.
Church was the sort of fun this morning where children really play their part in leading worship.
It is so nice seeing the excitement of children this time of year!
Merry Christmas to you and your family Tom. God bless.
Merry Christmas God bless you awesome video.
Merry Christmas Tom!! I'm living through this scenario with the 6mm Remington. My first deer rifle chambered in this cartridge built on a Mauser 98 action by my uncle for varmint hunting, but sold to my father to give to me as a deer hunting rifle. At the time it was competing with the 243 Winchester and lost. The 243 Winchester is still popular today, but these newer cartridges are coming on strong. Anyway, I still load for my 6mm and still use it to this day, but I also like new things too and right now the 7 PRC has my interest.
Cervus, I was just mentioning the 6mm Rem to someone. I was speculating that the 6.5x57 would probably be about perfect because it would probably pick up over 100 fps over the short action cartridges like the 6mm Rem did over the 243 because of the extra case capacity and if chambered in a long action rifle then bullet length issues due to magazine restrictions would a thing of the past.
@@TomRiverSimpleLiving yes, the 6mm Remington derived from the 7mm x 57 Mauser and the 257 Roberts has that case capacity like the 6.5x57 for the extra powder and thus the 100 fps extra velocity. Remington just missed their opportunity with marketing in my opinion. They changed the twist rate early enough in the late 50's to a 1:9, but did not change the ammunition and continued to only produce the 75 and 90 grain in the 244 Remington. It wasn't until 63 along with the intro of the Remington 700 that they rebranded the 244 Remington to the 6mm Remington as well offered the 100 grain ammo loads, but the Winchester 243 was so far ahead in the marketing of their 24 caliber that Remington could just never catch up. With the introduction of the new 700 Remington, I'd love to see someone introduce a 6mm Express, 6mm LR, 6mm PRC s etc. with the same cambering as the 6mm Remington except extend the throat a bit and have a twist rate of perhaps 1:7 to accommodate the longer high BC projectiles of 115 to 120 grain. This would make for a great duel purpose rifle (target and hunting) Maybe varmint too depending on what people need to shoot projectile weight wise.
Bless you buddy really enjoy all your videos
Merry Christmas nice video . Kinda funny I’m 64 and have a 6.5 creed. My son who is 34 has a .260 rem. I bought him the model 7 Remington for his first rifle at age 10. He wouldn’t sell or trade it for anything.
It's funny for me to because I never did get a 260 but I do have a 6.5 Creedmoor now and I chose that because the brass was so much easier to find and cheaper than 260. Plus I couldn't get the rifle I got in 260.
I have 2 260 remingtons. 1 bolt, 1 ar10. No creedmoor. I would put both up against any 6.5 creedmoor. They shoot 140s lights out and 130gr sig elite hunter just drops whitetails in their tracks. I'm glad to see someone put it straight for the 2 calibers. Merry Christmas and happy new year.
I have owned both in custom rifles one i kept an thats the 260 rem. 130gr berger is my choice
Merry Christmas Tom.
Merry Christmas from Winston Salem ! 🙏 🌲 🇺🇸
I shoot a 260 rem Savage XP! Awesome cartridge to shoot, best to know your rifle and what it's capable of!🤙🏾👍🏽
Merry Christmas, Tom.
For hunters, two groups to be divided into. Hand loaders and strictly factory ammo shooters. 6.5x55 U.S. factory ammo is relatively anemic because of low SAAMI MAP. If you want to shoot a low recoiling inexpensive 6.5 for deer or whatever go ahead and get a Creedmoor. It has been proven to work. If you hand load, the 6.5x55 when loaded to it’s real capacity in a strong bolt action (not a Krag-Jorgensen) will leave the Creedmoor in the dust,especially with the heavier longer bullets 140 and 160 grain weights. I have one of the Sporterized by Kimber Carl Gustaf M96 6.5x55. All the Swedish Mausers, both Carl Gustaf and Husqvarna 6.5x55’s were proof tested to almost 63,000 psi. Case capacity wins here. The longer action M96 and M98 actions allows the bullet to be seated farther out to take full advantage of the Swede’s case capacity.
If you’re one who can’t stand the thought of shooting anything with Creedmoor in its name AND you want a short action rifle then find yourself a 260 Remington. You probably won’t easily find brass for it, but you can form it from easy to find .243 Winchester cases. If Winchester had been able to see the future, they probably would have standardized the 6.5mm-08 and the 6.5 Creedmoor probably would never have come to exist.
If you want to shoot a hotter 6.5, look at the 6.5-284 Norma or better yet the 6.5-06. Merry Christmas and happy hunting boys and girls!😊
Thanks for your Christmas blessing and for the fine video. I bought a ruger 77 - 11 in .260 Rem and it's the only rifle I have scoped myself with. Where I live in NZ ammo costs so much and I am happy to say all my brass is either 243 or 7mm08 it is so easy to correct to 260. I was looking for brass in Ohio wher I bought it and needless to say due to hunting regs bottle-neck cases are a no go. But when I asked a gent in a gunstore about brass he got so excited and spoke of the virtue of the 260 as a 1000 yard cartridge, that it surpassed the .300 Win mag at 1000 yds. I haven't used it past 100 and that on goats mostly. I now make sure I have a tight hold on it when swinging from one target to another for a quick shot. Thank again for you easy listening discussions.
I have a .260 t3 tac tikka & I love it I had several 260s over the years including a 700 mountain rifle that shot 140grs in a hole wish I had it back but had to have a 270wsm i can't complain about it either 😊1 reason i got the 260 t3 tac was I already had the dies lol some times that old comes in handy
Merry Christmas. God Bless
It'll be like the .264 mag.
I think you are right on the big scopes...heavy guns etc.
I just ordered a light howa and a scope with a 32mm objective.
Had back surgery #4 on Dec 13th, heavy stuff is out.
Absolutely loved the video.
I want something in .280 eventually. I may barrel a model 70 in that.
Merry Christmas!
Merry Christmas to the River family. Really enjoyed this episode. As a keen owner of both the 7mm-08 and 243 win (used exclusively for deer hunting in Australia), I have a soft spot in my heart for the 260 rem but don't really need one. Selling my 243 as the 7mm-08 does everything I need, and it will eliminate the risk of a stupid, avoidable accident with the ammunition. I am always extremely careful with my ammo, but 243 and 7mm-08 are similar at a glance - and I only need to make a stupid, stupid error once if I'm tired, cold, hungry and not concentrating.
TrailerYacht, I had that same concern for a moment with me just getting this 280 and already having a 270 and 30-06 but then realized that it would be hard to mix them up. The main concern would be putting a larger caliber in a smaller bore but I don't think a 7mm would even chamber in a .243 because of the bullet diameter being so much larger (but that might be worth checking?) and I don't think a smaller diameter cartridge fired in a larger diameter bore would be a problem either? I've heard of people accidentally firing 243 in 7mm-08 without issue other than really scaring the person that did it. I know they also made the shoulder slightly longer on the 270 and longer still on the 280 just so they wouldn't chamber in a 30-06 by accident but I'm not sure about the short actions? But either way it's good that you aware of our ability to make mistakes and are concerned about being as safe as possible.
Merry Christmas everyone🎄 Well the gun and ammo manufacturers couldn’t just bring back in the 260 REM , because people always think something new is going to be better it’s just all marketing ploy , look now we have the 6.5 PRC , a lot of people will think something newer is always better and 270 Winchester , 308 win and 30-06 spr will cover nearly almost everything
A friend of mine passed away about 7 years ago and I ended up buying his 6.5-06 Rem 700 which got me a lil wildcat and helped his widow out. Being a target shooter I hand loaded it and shot it routinely out to 600 yds. After shooting my 40X 7.62 NATO target rifle which was using only 42.5 gr of Varget I decided shooting the 6.5-06 using 52 gr was nothing more than an added expense. An old military armorer friend mentioned I could easily ream that 700 to a 6.5-08 and have a nice shooting rifle. It was already shooting well so I wasn't up to spending money on another reamer but he said he had one and would recut the chamber and rethread the barrel. When he got done he handed me a rifle and said, "you now have a .260 Remington". I broke it in the old fashion way. 1 shot, clean, 1 shot, clean, until I no longer had any copper fouling. I ended up retiring right after, ended up moving then had a heart attack and this summer I plan to work up a nice load for it. Some of the Creedmore shooters tried telling me my .260 was a poor man's target gun. LOL
Edited to add the 6.5-06 uses a long action and so does my 6.5-08/.260. :)
Merry Christmas Tom
Dear Tom, very good video, I use the 6,5x57R in my bespoke build cape gun. They did it in Suhl, Thüringen in Germany fifteen years ago. The shotgun barrel is chambered in 28ga. Paul Mauser introduced this cartridge in 1893, so I think this is old, very old. The muzzle energie is just 10% lower than those of the 6,5CM, so I don‘t care. Happy new year!
Recently picked up a Rem 700 chambered in 280 Remington. Came to look for ammo... and no one had any. Good thing I hand load. However, came to look for brass... and no one had any. Finally got some 1x-fired brass off of Gunbroker.
Great video! I can now refer to the 6.5 Ceedmoor as the social media round....I hate that cartridge for no other reason but the over hype it got.
I am glad the 6.5 came along as it increased the variety of bullets I can use in my 260s. With lighter bullets I can squeeze a lot more velocity for varmints. If I want to improve, I can AI the 260. If I want a heavy bullet for efficiency in long distance shooting I throat my 260AI and approach a 6.5 PRC. I look at brass that is being made currently in 260 Rem for reloaders is plentiful. Last time at the range with a straight 260 I was getting 10fps es with a 105 grain bullet at a mild 3130 fps. I do another old thing too. I moly coat my bullets.
Great video and my God bless you.
By the way I have quite a few 280 brass around too!!
A model 700 in 280. Great combo! I can't wait to see how it shoots with the 140's you picked.
6.5 fanaticism has infected the reloader community since the 6.5 Krag. About every 20 years the infection returns. shouldering aside 25 Caliber and 7 mm. then it goes away and nobody missed it. 6.5 Krag short AI had the exact same capacity.
To me, new and interesting means; my knowledge and experience with this rifle is limited, and I don't know what to expect. I'd rather have a rifle that has been ran through it's paces, and leaves nothing to guess at. Feeds, fires, and extracts, every time.
That's a fine rifle you got there, Tom. I hope it leaves nothing to guess at for you. May you and your family have a blessed, and peaceful Christmas.
Thanks Hammerhead!
Remington has a way of bringing out great cartridges and letting them die on the vine. They don't have a very good idea of what people want. When Winchester came out with the .243 they offered it in the model 70. Eye candy. When Remington brought out the .244, they offered it in the plain old 722. I don't believe the .244 was a less effective cartridge. There a few more examples. 7mm-08 in the 788 rifle. Huh? 6.5 Remington magnum in the 600 Remington space gun. The 7mm express Remington was confused with the 7mm Remington magnum by a few shooters. By the way I am loading up some .257 Robert's ammo. That one doesn't require CZcams for me to know know about. Merry Christmas to all!
I picked the 260 remington for the fact I can neck down the 308 brass. I will always have brass for the cartridge. The 6.5 Swede was the first 6.5 that I wanted ,but never got.
Great video.. Thanks .
Merry Christmas brother!
Same to you!
I love this video. So much hype about new calibres. Getting good research and data is hard when comparing calibres for use. Form follows function. What do you want to do to achieve your outcomes? Hunting or targets, long range or close, open terrain or thick bush. Finding one calibre to do it all seems difficult if you have a limited budget. In australia .260 factory seems hard to get, 6.5mm ammo is very expensive. Reloading is a budget focussed direction to enjoy the calibre of choice and save money. Your discussion of these issues is fantastic. Thankyou.
It’s funny you talking about the creedmore that Hornaday made a hit with all the ammo available then your new 700 in 280 which just so happens to be Steve Hornaday favorite cartridge!
Merry Christmas.
Merry Christmas
I have the magazine article that Guns And Ammo did on the .260 when it was released. I called my gunsmith in Refugio Texas to see if he had a reamer and he did so I ordered a short chambered barrel right away and he fit it in a 98 Mauser action for me. I bought dies and couldn't find brass the first I had was formed from .308 then I started buying the correct brass. I ended up having two built one went to a friend of mine and I kept the other one but didn't shoot it for many years. I handloaded for my friends rifle the entire time he hunted with it unfortunately he was in a tractor accident and lost his life. I started doing load development five years ago for mine and to this day has never been hunting. I tried selling it last year but never got an interested buyer. It just isn't too popular ammunition is hard to find and expensive. I also have a 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser that was my only hunting rifle for years and I still have it. I did buy a 6.5 Creedmoor just because my neighbors grandson got one and wanted to handload for it. I bought all the dies and components for loading Creedmoor and he decided it just wasn't really his favorite rifle. He didn't come out and say it but shot his last deer with his 30-06, I figured the love affair was over. I had all this brass and dies so I bought one. Do I regret it? No not at all, just another tool in my toolbox.
Thanks from New Zealand…and my Ruger M77 Mk1…rebarrelled in .260
Merry Christmas 🎁🎄 Tom have a Blessed day
You to Travis!
I've had 2 different 260's through the years and I just can't remember ever being able to do with it what I can do with my creedmoor. However it is a great cartridge without a doubt.
MERRY CHRISTMAS Tom
25 December 2023: Merry Christmas, by the way.
What you point out, Mr River, is formally called ' a difference without a distinction'. Two 'items' - things or arguments - that have minor differences in structure or formulation, but are functionally equivalent. I completely agree and have - without much effect - argued that fact for a couple years now.
If I may - and no one seems able to stop me - I will point out a couple bit of slightly different perspective.
I rather like the 6.5x55mm Swedish cartridge. Except for the odd head size. I have a couple and between 200 and 27 pounds of ammunition. Plus reloading dies and assorted components.
If I didn't have all that stock, I would choose the .260 Remington. Has the standard Mauser/Springfield head size. Fits in a short to middle length action. Fits in an action rated for more pressure than the initial - weaker - Mauser action. It is in my mind the ideal modern upgrade to the 6.5x55mm round.
Except Remington thought no one would want to use the 160 grain (10 gram/ 154 grain original) bullet but the 140 grain. So the 'accepted' twist rate is slower than needed to stabilize the heavier bullet. However, the faster twist rate will stabilize the lighter bullets as well. :silent scream:
Later, as you said, came the 6.5 Creedmoor with a bigger publicity campaign and flashier advertising. Much ado with no real substance.
Good for middle sized game. Ignored is W. D. M. Bell's killing of 300 elephants with a 6.5x54mm Mannlicher Schoenauer. That cartridge having much the same bullet and velocity as the 6.5x55mm. Not that one can legally use the .260 Rem on elephant and African buffalo with impunity, but it will likely dispatch a Moose, if correctly applied.
All differences of opinion aside, I like your knowledge, your style and your videos. And I think I'm a bit older.
And I serve the same Lord. Amen.
OldMan, I wish a had studied philosophy more because there are a lot of things now that I suspect would make more sense viewed through a philosophical lense? I've also always been humbled by how logical our Lord's statements were.
And I've thought for years that a 6.5x57 +P loaded to modern pressures would be about perfect? Standard head size and if chambered in a long action rifle then magazine length would no longer be a concern. The extra case capacity over the standard short action cases would allow for extra velocity but it still wouldn't be terribly overbore like the 6.5-06. Sort of like the 6mm Rem vs 243. But I can't imagine that ever becoming very popular?
@@TomRiverSimpleLiving First: The Lord has given you a good mind with the ability to grasp a concept, problem or idea and wrestle it to the ground. Which happens to be the basis of 'philosophy' in the broader sense. The Lord has seemingly given me a push in that direction, which was sharpened by practice when I worked as a federal lawman and constantly had to be prepared for court testimony. Not to mention the ability to pick out potential suspects. Enough horn tooting.
Yes. The 6.5x57mm Mauser or RWS would be just dandy. It was developed about the same time as the 6.5x55mm, but the Swede was adopted by the Swedish military and the 6.5x57mm was never a military round. So the 57 version did not get the same publicity. (I think.)
But a '98 Mauser (or derivative) action with a good barrel of 1:7 twist would have - in my mind - outrun the 6.5 Swede and made the .260 Rem nearly unnecessary. Yeah. I didn't think of that one. But like the others mentioned, it's older and not cool. Too many current shooters seek high velocities and perceived 'progress'.
Congrats on receiving such a nice Christmas gift! Looking forward to seeing how it shoots! Most importantly, It's fantastic to see you share the great news of our savior, Jesus Christ!!!!! God's Blessings to you and yours!!
I agree with you on the 260 Remington and it does seem on its way out. It is a fine Deer Cartridge. I had one in a Remington Model 7 at one time and sold it to a friend. Regret it to this day. That rifle shot very well and my young son took a deer at a measured 366 yards on a power line right of way. The 6.5 Creedmor just never interested me, I guess it was all the marketing hype that sorta turned me off. Besides, I always kinda leaned towards the classic calibers anyway. And speaking of a classic, that 280 cartridge is a superb round. Yes, it may be hard to find ammo for but it does so many things well. I helped a young teenager with his first deer rifle and I found a Remington 700 chambered in 280. It was on the used rack and a friends gun shop. I was allowed to take that rifle to the range and see how it shot. Man, it was a shooter!! I even zeroed that rifle while there and saved the target. I took it back to the gun shop and they held it until his Mother could come in and purchase it. Also bought two boxes of ammo of the same that the rifle was zeroed with. He still has that rifle to this very day and has taken many deer over the years with it. Gotta love the Classics.
Thanks for sharing, God Bless and Happy New Year to you and your family!!
Tom your a old school boring guy like me! I love ya man.
I have a 260 AI built on rhe South African made RSA single target action. I shoot 143grn ELDX a around 2870fps and can print a clover leaf hole at 100m anytime.
Merry Christmas Tom. I amswered that when i saw the 6.5 Creedmore released....why? Thats the same as the 260 Rem. The power of marketing.
Think of it like the 45-70 being at the end of the first generation of cartridges. Bullets shaped like slugs moving slow dew to powder technology. Invention of smokeless powder and spitzer bullets enter generation two and the fast and flat shooting cartridges. 260 was at the end of this generation. Scopes become more popular, shots can now be made much further away. Affordable range finders and scopes that can be dialed making way for generation 3. The Creedmoor was one of the first cartridges designed to take advantage of these technologies. Now look at all the cartridges modelled after it. Is a 6.8 Western not a scaled up 6.5creed?! What's good about the high bc heavy bullets is the wind deflection, were range is defeated easily by dialing at a known range. Merry Christmas Tom 🍻
Kyle, I love that analogy of the 260 being the end of Gen2 and I agree that we are entering Gen 3 but I don't think that the cartridges themselves are a part of that? I actually mentioned the advent of laser ranger finders in this video but edited it out because I was starting to go down a different rabbit hole and I was trying to keep this from going on for an hour. Like you pointed out there was a big change going from the old straight walled black powder cartridges to bottle neck smokeless powder cartridges but there was an actual change in performance there. The changes today that actually make a difference are for everything except for the cartridge like twist rate and laser range finders. I don't see the 6.5 Creedmoor as actually being a change from the 260? You can load longer high b.c. bullets without seating them deeper into the case and taking away powder capacity but they already took away that little bit of powder capacity to move the shoulder back. And I can't see any advantage to trying to squeeze every new cartridge into a short action except for maybe saving the rifle manufactures a few dollars in material? I also don't see a lot of the changes as being of any real benefit to hunters? I can see it being of benefit to guys shooting F class at 1000 yards but for hunters there has to be a maximum ethical range for hunting. What that is will vary from person to person but I can't imagine anything over 500 yards or 600 max being ethical for hunters shooting in field conditions. And there aren't that many people capable of shooting well enough, including myself, for even those ranges to be ethical without a bench or some type of support. And that's in ideal conditions with zero wind. So there has to be a point at which twist rate and BC have done all they can do and we're just at the limit of a person's ability to confidently know they can always hit vitals on a game animal at whatever distance. I think any changes past that are just for target shooters and that we have long since reached that point for hunters? And at this point I'm wondering down another rabbit hole again! LOL But this is an interesting topic and again I love your analogy of us entering gen3.
@@TomRiverSimpleLiving it's definitely about the cartridges themselves. 260 vs 6.5cm, 7rm vs 7prc, 270wsm vs 6.8west. all doing exactly the same. Pushing the shoulder back, pushing the walls out and properly seating a heavy for caliber slick bullet. This to me is what I'm calling generation 3 cartridge design.
@@kylemartin832
In no way can you compare the transition from 45-70 to 6.5 Swede or 7x57 etc….. to the difference between the 260 vs the creedemoore.
There simply IS NOT that big of a difference! Especially, as Tom said, to real hunters.
I was about 18 or 19 when the short magnums and the ultra magnums and the ultra short magnums came to market. They were pretty exciting at the time to a hunter my age. Luckily, I never bought one. Where are they now? The 300wsm looks like it might hang on. The rest? Doesn’t look good.
I have a feeling most of these new age cartridges will suffer the same fate.
Do they offer higher performance? Yes they do.
Is it revolutionary? Not even close.
@@mildbill222well, the 6.5x55 Swed (a favorite of mine) started with a round nose 160gr moving pretty slow. Very similar to the first generation of metallic cartridges heavy and slow. Took 2 decades before the spitzer style pills were used.
Real hunters? What's that? Like my uncle that thinks hitting a pie plate at 100 is good enough. Or the "minute of deer" saying that makes me cringe. Give me a break with the "real hunter" bs.
I'm glad you brought up the short magnums. What did they bring to the table? More velocity and more recoil with the same bullets. So, lighter bullets moving fast to defeat drop is what generation 2 of cartridge was all about.
The 260 was designed around a 130gr bullet going as fast as possible (gen2 theory) using a 1-9 twist. The Creed was designed for the heavier 140gr with a 1-8 less velocity but a much more slippery bullet. Two completely different design philosophies. The difference in the three generations is the way we utilize bullets. Gen1, slow and heavy. Gen2, light and fast. Gen3 is all about efficiency. A perfect example of this is 6ARC. The efficiency of that round is simple amazing.
So, if you think these new guys on the block aren't going to stick around because of the short magnums of the 90s I'll remind you Remington and Winchester still struggle to release new cartridges. Example 6.8 Western. Excellent cartridge with a terrible launch and little support.
God bless you as well.
History shows us that many cartridges are not marketed correctly. I always thought the 270 Winchester would make a great target cartridge as well as a hunting cartridge. The 280 Remington is an excellent cartridge that never got the credit it deserved.
.
?Will common sense ever come to play in the marketing of rifles and cartridges? I doubt it. Yes, I bought a tikka in 260 Remington and yes, it does well off a bench.
.
But.
When I go to the Field I take my 270. Why? It steadies up faster than a lightweight 260, it hits harder at any angle, and the bullets are about the same. I tried to love 6.5’s but there is nothing they do in the field, hunting, that my 30-06 or my 270 hasn’t done.
6.5’s really really work but any cartridge based on a 308 Winchester, you pick one, will do the same.
@@maxcontax The 270 Win is getting a better selection of bullets all the time.
The 260 was a target cartridge first developed for Metallic Silhouette shooters. It provided lower recoil and sufficient power to topple 500-meter steel ram targets. It was a wildcat based on the 308 case the same as the 7-mm 308 wildcat. Target shooting cartridges often convert to hunting cartridges.
All it takes is seeing a cartridge winning matches to see target shooter switching to a new cartridge. However, bullets for target matches are not hunting bullets. Hitting steel targets at long ranges is much different from hunting game. I have to wonder if a bullet will perform the same at short distances as at long distances. That issue is important to consider. 🤔
A lot of good points there Gizmo. And I was just pondering earlier about what the maximum ethical range is for taking a shot at a game animal and I was thinking specifically about so many shooting steel at whatever range and then thinking that means it's ok to shoot at game animals that far. And you are spot on about how a bullet will perform at different distances.
I know that 280 Remington will work great on Whitetail Deer with Remington 140 grain PSP Core Locs . Have a happy new year .
Something that also occurred to me. The 6.5 Creed is very popular in South Africa for LR target shooting and plains game hunting. The .260 Rem is practically unknown. Maybe it caught on partly because it has a "cool" name. Remington has had some bad luck with the .244/6mm Rem and the .280/7mm Express, offset I guess by the success of the 7mm RM and .25-06. As for the .280 Rem, I read an article in Guns & Ammo (I think) in the mid 70's about forgotten calibres - the 16ga, the .38 Super (before it was "rediscovered" by competition shooters) and the .280 Rem. It is the ballistic twin of the 1917 7x64 Brenneke, and as I had a VZ24/M98 Mauser action, I had a gun shop import a Douglas Premium barrel in .280 Rem. This rifle has a 1:10 twist and has turned out to be all I wanted, with that little edge over the .270 with the heavier bullets. Good luck with your .280 and Happy New Year!
i have a remington mountain rifle in 260,,,love it.
If I wanted to buy another 6.5mm firearm I would buy a .260 Rem because I don't want to add another unique to me cartridge to support with ammo. Ammo is the most expensive part of a shooting rig over time. I bought a Remington 700VLS chambered in .260 Rem in 1997. It's a great rifle. .260 Remington is is a very good caliber. Am I a fan? No, but 6.5 Creed has no attraction for me. I'm not a fanboy of the the .260 Remington like I am a fanboy of .25-06 and the .243 Winchester. It's all good - you pays your money and you takes your choice.
Merry Christmas, Tom and all the those that watch the Chanel.
“You can’t say one’s better than the other”
Oh Hornadys marketing team will disagree with you there 😂
Hornaday has been responsible for more long range wounded game then all the other ammo manufactures🤔😳 pushing for long range hunting doesn’t make you a man hunting within proper range for an ethical shot does🤔😳 just my opinion after 60+ years of hunting reloading and being a gun collector and seeing what the long range has turned the great outdoor sport into🤔😳🥲
@edwardabrams4972 If you watch their 2008 launch video, they only mention target shooting
Looking forward to the 280 load development. Spent the last year loading, shooting, and hunting with a 280. Curious what powders and velocities you'll use and get.
I have a .260 Rem and a 6.5 Creedmoor, both with a 1:8 twist. While I shoot the .260 more, the Creedmoor has been easier to load for though.
The difference is money spent on advertising and i am guilty of not knowing the differences til i started reading more just believed what i heard good show
Merry Christmas everyone.
Modern mainstream news media popularized the creedmore! Ballistic Nerds and MONEY is what promoted this cartridge on a younger generation!
The 260 is truly overlooked and with all the new calibers coming out, I would dare say the 327 federal magnum is the best on due to the versatility in a revolver and lever action rifle shooting a 32 long colt to 327 federal magnum too bad it didnt catch on. What are your thoughts on a comparison of the 45 long colt vs 44 magnum in lever action rifles and reloading .
There is a huge difference for me. I’ve never seen 260 rem or 6.5 Swede, rifle or ammo or heard of them until the creedmoor got popular and the haters started coming out. Maybe it’s small town Mississippi syndrome where 30-30, 308, 270, 30-06 ruled the roost. Shopping at a big store like bass pro is an all day full tank of gas road trip. 6.5 creedmoor is everywhere here now and the 260 and Swede are still not present. I waited 10 years after its release and got a ruger in 6.5 creedmoor and I love it. I thank hornady advertising for popularizing the creedmoor and getting it into every corner store here. P.S. still only know one person who claims to have a 280, never seen him bring it out. Merry Christmas!!!
Been jonesing for a 280ai.
It's all about hand loading and customization of your rifle.