I'm the "Jerrold" mentioned in the video. Prior to 2006 / 2007, I would not have been able to get by with just my Marlin 336 in .30-30 as my only center-fire hunting rifle. For general-purpose big-game hunting in North America, I need a rifle that shoots flat enough for me to reliably hit a 9" pie tin out to 300 yards and the ammunition has to have enough terminal performance at that distance to take elk with proper shot placement. Hornady's LeverEvolution ammo in .30-30, and the availability of component bullets and powder required to duplicate it, are what transformed my 336 from a specialized, "situational use" tool into a general-purpose hunting rifle, Around the time that LeverEvolution came out, I was making my living as a licensed guide, a lecturer and seminar presenter, and a freelance writer with masthead credit as a contributing editor for multiple publications One of the perks of that "hunting and fishing lifestyle occupation" was access to products for testing and evaluation. That's how I got my hands on the first few boxes of LeverEvolution I tried. Testing revealed that the stuff didn't just "add a little extra range" to my "dense eastern woods whitetail whacker." Here's what the stuff did out of my rifle, expressed as Distance) Velocity / Energy: M) 2380 / 2013 100) 2176 / 1683 200) 1983 / 1397 300) 1801 / 1152 400) 1631 / 945 In shooting calibrated 10% ballistics gel at 300 yards, the bullets demonstrated reliable 2X shank diameter expansion and striaght-line penetration of 24" to 26" . That transformed my old 336 from "dense eastern woods whitetail whacker" to "capable of killing elk out to 300 yards" in my estimation. My general purpose hand load duplicates this performance. This load has the same power at 400 yards that my prior 170 grain Speer Hot Core tipped load had at 225. My particular 336 got 2.5 M.O.A. groups with it when it was still in the form I received it in as an 11 year old kid in 1976. There wasn't any significant lateral dispersion of the groups, but there was significant vertical stringing, I modded the rife by cutting a dovetail in the barrel to accept a Marlin 336 XLR mag tube hanger block. I located that in a position appropriate for a half-length magazine, cut my mag tube and spring to the required length, replaced the follower with a new "gummy tip compatible" unit, replaced my retained rear carbine band with a new one having the sling stud attached and relieved that band where it goes over the barrel to give the barrel space to expand when it heats up, and I glass-bedded the butt to the action and capped the butt off with a thin but effective recoil pad. The rifle had pro trigger work done to it before it became mine, so I didn't need to do anything there. The result is a 1.25 M.O.A. or better lever-action with sufficient ballistics to take any game I care to in North America out to 300 yards when paired with the right ammo. That "out to 300 yards" bit is significant to me, because in 47 seasons of hunting, mostly in the wide open spaces of the wide open west, the longest shot I've ever taken on game in a sport-hunting situation (as opposed to the shooting I've had to do when guiding) was a 278 yard double-lung poke at a broadside California high desert mule deer. 300 yards also happens to be about as far off as I can reliably hit a common 9" pie tin from unsupported standing, sitting, kneeling, and prone positions on every single attempt. As a still-hunter, I can't imagine a more perfect combination. I had the right rifle from the beginning. I just didn't have the right ammo for it. Now I do. PS: You might have to be a hard-core still-hunter to appreciate the significance of getting 300 yard power and reach from a modest average starting velocity of 2380 fps, but I think most who follow the still-hunting paradigm would agree with me that even in open country, most of their shots are fairly close range affairs. Most of the game I've taken has been bedded or just getting up out of bed when shot, and generally at ranges measured in dozens of yards rather than hundreds. When the overwhelming majority of your kills happen from 0-100 yards, high velocity isn't necessarily your best friend because of the blood-shot mess of the secondary wound that is a byproduct of high impact velocity. That "magic" was the same "magic" I found when I first tried a sporterized Lee Enfield in the field. With the .303, I could reach out to 300 yards if I had to, but I could "eat right up to the bullet hole" on 30 yard shots. If you're the kind of person who would take a broadside double-lung poke at a bull elk from 300 yards with a .303 British, like I am, then compare what my general-purpose .30-30 load does with a common .303 hunting load shooting a 175 grain bullet at 2,400 fps. In the real world, no animal shot with my .30-30 load is going to notice the missing ..004" of bullet diameter, or the missing 15 grains of bullet weight, or the missing 20 fps in starting velocity.
I just remember what Jack O’Conner used for deer that that is good enough for me! Craig Boddington is a 30-06 or 7 rem mag. If that’s good enough for the hunter who has hunted more then any other living hunter in the world today then it’s good enough for me! In my short 60+ years of hunting collecting and reloading I have been shown be reasonable about the caliber and practice enough where your good with it!
30-06 definitely works, l once grazed a running buck at 100yd and a few pieces of rib managed to destroy both the heart and one lung without the bullet even penetrating the rib cage. I shot a huge buck in the center of it's chest and blew a baseball sized hole out the back ham. I'm older now and don't jump hunt anymore so just use 5.56 and take my time. Plus there is more meat left, but 06 certainly will take down anything even bison cleanly.
Conventional wisdom tells us that something like a Model 70 with a 26" barrel in .264 Winchester Magnum is a "western" rifle while something like a traditional lever-action is an "eastern" rifle. Personally, I think tactics play a bigger role than location or terrain does. My dad, his brothers, and my mother's brothers all hunted California's D-14 zone where they'd all pooled resources to buy 20 acres with a cabin on it that bordered the San Bernardino National Forest on two sides and BLM land on a third. Almost all of them hunted the area the same way. They'd go to the terminus of a Jeep trail, and walk from their vehicles to some favored rocky outcropping with a commanding vista. They'd generally not be walking more than a mile to any of these "stands" of theirs. They'd sit there on them all day until they either shot a deer as it wandered by or the clock struck 11:00. They were counting on the deer doing all of the moving. When they figured the deer were bedded down, they went back to the cabin for lunch and a card game. Since almost all of them hunted the same way, and were sometimes shooting to 400 yards or more, they all used Remington 742's in either .30-'06 or, in the case of a few, the .308 Winchester. Semi-auto made sense to them thanks to military indoctrination and going to war in Korea with the M-1 Garand or Vietnam with the M-14. Uncle Bob had a radically different approach. He went on a long, slow, deliberate walk in the wilds that was punctuated by frequent stops to thoroughly examine the country around him with field glasses. He called this "bird dogging." Many of us today would call this "still-hunting." To the uninformed, Bob's walks in the wilds might have seemed to be thoughtless wandering, but they were far from it. He had a purpose for every step he took and his route was well-thought out, taking him past springs, inside the edges of burns, and past known bedding areas, all while factoring in things like wind direction, cover and concealment, and even the time of day. He shot most of his deer either in bed or as they were just getting out of bed and he shot them at distances measured in dozens of yards, rather than hundreds. He carried a Winchester Model 94 in .30-30 and by "carried," I'm using that word deliberately. The rifle was in his hands from the commencement of legal shooting hours until he either filled his tag or legal shooting hours ended. Uncle Bob was the most successful hunter in that family camp of my childhood and youth. In a zone with a pathetic hunter success rate of 7%, he was one of the seventh percentile, 100% of the time. More often than not, he had his tag filled on opening day. He would absolutely have it filled some time between the opening day of the D-14 deer season and the opening day of the upland game bird season. That's two weekends worth of hunting time. Here's a quote to ponder: "Guys say 'I have to shoot 400+ yards.' I say that's a load of crap. People CHOOSE to shoot that far. Look at those ugly relations of ours. They sit their ever-widening asses on some boulder or rock until 10:30 or so and put as much effort into deer hunting as they put into watching the boob-tube. They could get off their asses and walk five sections of country filled with elevation gain and decline, but that's too much like work for some people. You should thank God that you've got a great big beautiful Bob to keep you from falling victim to your uglier relation's bone-idle ways. If you hunt like I do when you get a gun of your own, you'll be shooting deer when their asleep in their beds and you'll be so close when you do it that you can't possibly miss. You won't have to spend half the day looking for your dead deer, either. It isn't going to be more than 50 to 100 yards away from where you stood when you took aim and started to squeeze the trigger." -Uncle Bob Uncle Bob was hunting the same terrain depicted on the Butler Creek, CA USGS topo map that my dad and other uncles hunted. He wasn't hunting it the same way, though, and didn't need the same things out of a rifle that they did. Conversely, he needed some things out of his rifle that they didn't need out of theirs. "I'm going to Wyoming for another speed-goat hunt this year. I'm going to an area I've never been before. If it is a good country, then you and I will go together next year." "So, you'll be buying a new rifle soon, right"? I asked. "What in the hell do I need a new rifle for"? Bob asked in reply, adding, "I've got an old, white T-shirt, and I know how to use it"! I had no idea what that "white T-shirt business" was all about until I went on my first pronghorn hunt with Uncle Bob. We'd set up prone on a long finger ridge with a three-tier barbed wire fence behind us, to which Uncle Bob applied his magical T-shirt. When we first got there, and got set up, it was still too dark to see much, but in time, there was enough light to reveal a herd of pronghorn about six football fields away. When they were looking our way, Bob gave the T-shirt a little tweak. They came closer. This cycle repeated itself until Bob couldn't stand it anymore and he whispered a plan of action, in which he was going to give that shirt one more tweak and we'd quickly pick out our animal and then, on a kind of count of three scheme, we'd both fire on our animals at more or less the same time. The result was two pronghorn on the deck. They were dead about 125 yards from our prone position. Uncle Bob didn't really think about needing new equipment as much as he thought about how to achieve success with what he had. While it might seem that he didn't put much thought into his equipment choices, the opposite is true. He had a Remington 760 in .300 Savage with a 4X Weaver scope on it, but he switched to the Winchester 94 in .30-30 because he felt it the superior tool, based on the still-hunting method he came to favor. "For the way I hunt, I basically need a birdgun that shoots rifle bullets. I need something that I can carry in my hands all day long and that comes up to my shoulder fast, with instant sight alignment, that I can get an aimed, killing shot off with RIGHT NOW." It didn't matter how open or wooded the terrain was. "I can't worry about matching a rifle to the terrain. If I did, I'd have to carry an arsenal with me in a golf-club bag, and treat shooting game like putting a stupid little ball in a cup. This club for that, that club for this, only with rifles instead of clubs. I'll cover five or six sections of a topo map or more on a hunt and often, the terrain varies from open to wooded to something in between. Best for me to focus on being a better Indian than having the perfect arrow." Having a heated campfire discussion on rifles and calibers, or any discussion at all, was kind of difficult when Uncle Bob was sharing that same campfire. He shot his California A-Zone blacktrail and D-14 mule deer with his Model 94, and his out-of-state mule deer, elk, pronghorn, caribou, and moose with it. He shot his share of all of them, too, only very rarely "catching the skunk." Kids these days..... They think they have to have a gun for this and another for that and yet another for some other thing. For the whole of my life, Uncle Bob only had three firearms: A Winchester Model 94 in .30-30, a 12 gauge A y A Matador shotgun, and a Colt Frontier Scout .22 LR revolver. He might not have had a plethora of arms to use, but he certainly used the hell out of the three he had.
Back in 79 I shot my first deer, an 8 point whitetail, with a .223 at roughly 75 yards broadside. He dropped in his tracks. It wasn't the best cartridge, but it was all I had at the time. Shortly after that I stepped up to a 6mm Remington and I shot a lot of deer with that rifle. I then moved on to a 270 Winchester and again shot a lot of deer with that one. I'm currently using a 308 Winchester to harvest deer with. I've had no issues with any and for any loses I may have had it was due to a rushed shot and/or improper shot placement. I was in a disagreement with a friend just the other day. He indicated that he had handicapped his wife by giving her a .243 to hunt with. They had several deer that were shot and never found. Then he was talking about they only do neck shots so as to not lose any meat. Well, to me there in lies the problem especially with a novice hunter. The neck shot requires hitting the spine and if you are low the bullet just punches through allowing the deer to run off a long way to eventually die. He wants to blame the cartridge rather than look at the skill level and applying the highest percentage of a success with shot placement. I told him the best broadside shot is a high shoulder shot that destroys the vertebrae between the shoulders. His response was you lose meat. My reply was lose some meat, but get the deer or soot poorly at a small target and watch the deer run off and get no meat.
Another great video Tom. I've lived here on the Canadian prairies and up in the north for almost 60 years. There are a great number of people up year whose only big game rifles are 243, 250 savage and the like that take elk moose and bear every year let alone deer. you'll also come across lots of deer and elk taken with old 25-35s, 22-250s and 220 swifts. There is still alot of 303 british being used too lol. It's about where you place it not what you place. Don't let anyone tell you they won't make a good hunting cartridge cause I've seen it first hand. Thank you for all the great videos and insights and common sense. God Bless
I've used the 30-30 with success in the northern rockies. Up close its fine and in many ways the Marlin 336 is ideal. The downside is that it's range limited and you need to be close on elk with it. Still it can get it done but had real limitations but in the south or midwest anywhere east of the Mississippi I'd be comfortable with it and a 243win would be a ray gun in comparison. For economy and good performance the regular 270win and 30-06 are quite good with today's new projectiles, very good.
So far, the longest shot I've ever made on an elk was 178 yards and I made it with my Marlin 336 firing a LeverEvolution duplicate hand load. I get an average muzzel velocity of 2380 fps for 2013 ft.lns of muzzle energy. At 300 yards, math says my bullet is going about 1800 fps and hitting with 1156 ft/lns of energy. At 300 yards, those bullets reliably expand to 2X shank diameter and give 24" to 26" of stright-line penetration in calibrated 10% ballistics gel. On a 200 yard zero, it has a max point-blank range of 267 yards, but the trajectory is easy to manage by simply aiming for the top of the vital zone from 200 to 300 yards. 300 yards isn't long range but that about as far off as I can hit a 9" pie tin with every shot when shooting from unsuported standing, sitting, kneeling and prone positions, no matter what I'm shooting.
A lot of native Alaskans use 223 on moose, just saying not me but I would use a 243 on deer and shot a 255 pound 11pt.buck with one.I've shot moose with 300wsm and deer it's awesome. My all around caliber would be the 270 win. I just love it🤠
Plenty of horsepower in 243 winchester and up for whitetail. In my experience, bullet selection becomes more important at that point. I'll take almost any shot angle with a federal fusion in 243 winchester. Not the case with a regular cup and core. Great video Tom!
I agree 100 percent. My go to is a browning abolt medallion in 25-06 with leupold 2-7. Balanced well, and quick shouldering. I call it Thor’s hammer. Never had a deer take a step out to 300 yards.
Very interesting take - I've hunted both WV and SC. When in WV I use full power 30-06 although in 150 gr Swift. In SC, I have begunh down loading 30-06 and even 7mm-08 - especially don't need 2950+ imo out of the 06. But, my favorite deer cartridge right now, the 6.5 Grendel with the Sierra 1720s. Although I do like the 30-30 with the newer Hornady 160s too - hand loaded of course. Good video.
I know a lot of guys that "overgun" for midsized game with the intent to use that rifle for much larger game like elk, moose, and bear, but never actually use it for those larger animals. I always get a kick out of guys that go into the deer woods, here in Michigan, with a 300WM, 338WM, or even a 30-06, and wonder if they have enough gun for deer within 100 yards. And here, I sometimes feel silly hunting with something as powerful as my 7mm-08 and rarely getting a shot beyond 70 yards. No such thing as too dead, I suppose. **Side note** Karamoja Bell hunted ELEPHANTS with a........ 7x57mm Mauser. That aught to be an eye opener for many of us.
I have known a few guys like that. I'm sympathetic, because I was that guy when I was 16, and catalog shopping, in anticipation of buying my own rifle a few years. If I hadn't gotten some advice from seasoned hunters/ elders, I would have bought something that would take a water buffalo, in my ignorance.
@@seanomeirs8362 yeah, you and me both. Hilariously, the guys I'm referring to are all middle aged men who have been hunting for years. One of them actually worked at a gun store, and hunts out of a tree stand with a 300WM. I bought a 300WM several years ago, and I hardly use it. It's an alright rifle. Light weight, smooth bolt throw, but barks and bite like a rabid wolf. I couldn't imagine trying to shoot that rifle 20ft. off the forest floor. At 44 years old, I'm very content to shoot something that doesn't shake my fillings loose every time I pull the trigger. Bruised shoulders are for the young.😉
After 50 years of hunting I was late to the game using a 6.5 Creedmoor. I bought a used Savage AXIS and it opened my eyes with it's accuracy, light recoil, low cost and fantastic bullet performance with minable meat damage on everything from woodchucks to whitetails. I have many choices of rifles and calibers, as a handloader I load from 90gr to 130gr and for those sized game out to 250+ yards it's hard to beat. A 7mm/08 is also a great caliber, one of the best, but you're right, deer only take so much killing.
@@hammerheadms One guy in particular that goes with us to the range, will likely never shoot anything but paper,with his 300 win mag. He doesn't have the fitness or competence with it, to ever get that mountain goat that he dreams about. He was paying $7 a round for the ammunition that he brought to the range last time, so he is ready to go home after an hour.
@@hardball107 I have been considering a 6.5CM for my son, who is taking an interest in hunting. He's only 8 right now, but I am getting ready to train him to shoot on my .22LR. I gave some consideration to .243Win, but I think I feel better about a cartridge with heavier bullets, and only slightly more, negligible I'd say, recoil. Option 2 was maybe 350 Legend.
Hi Tom, our position in South Africa is that 99% of hunting farms don’t allow any rifle to be used for hunting is a .270. Some do allow a 6.5 creedmore for Springbuck and Blesbuck, but not many. Reason is that there was too many game wounded with these small caliber rifles and they could not track these animals as there were no traces of blood to track the wounded animals. Bearing in mind that we don’t have any Public Hunting places in South Africa. Perhaps if you only hunt foxes, rabbits or other similar types of small game or certain birds, like a Guineafowl.
One observation I made over the years is that hunters that have regular access to hunting grounds gravitate to more modest cartridges than conventional wisdom would suggest. The 6.5x55 Swedish on elk is a good example. On the flip side, if you have that one tag and the one hunting trip you were able to carve out of your busy life, you will take shots with a higher risk appetite (longer, not perfectly broad-side). And for that it absolutely makes sense to increase the safety margin by choosing a higher powered cartridge ( if you can competently shoot it…)
I was born and have been living in Utah my entire life of 51 yrs. I have known people and seen cow elk shot with the .243 and it hasn't been that impressive unless it's very close with a double lung, heart or neck shot. Most every person I grew up with or been hunting with almost always used a rifle chambered in 270,30-06,308,7mm rem, 300 win mag. Last couple yrs the newer cartridges have become a lot more popular. You spend a lot of time and money on hunting why limit yourself to 100-150 yards. With the hunting pressure and terrain sometimes the only shot you will get is a cross canyon of 300-400 yards and only a fool would try that with a 30-30 or the 243
I'm the "Jerrold" referenced in this video. I want to respond to a few of your comments. You wrote: "You spend a lot of time and money on hunting why limit yourself to 100-150 yards." I'm not limited to 150 yards because I hunt with a Marlin 336 in .30-30 and I haven't been since the advent of Hornady's LeverEvolution ammunition and the components needed to duplicate it with handloads. My limit is 300 yards, but that's not a "rifle thing." it is a "me thing." My particular Marlin 336 is mechanically accurate enough to hit a standard 9" pie tin well beyond 300 yards. The ptoblem is that I am not mechanically accurate enough to hit a 9" pie tin from unsupported standing, sitting, kneeling, and prone positions. You wrote: "With the hunting pressure and terrain sometimes the only shot you will get is a cross canyon of 300-400 yards ........" I've hunted 21 Utah mule deer seasons. Even though they're short in duration, I've NEVER had just one shot opportunity during the course of a Utah deer season, or any elk hunt I've been on in Utah, for that matter. I've never had t shoot across a canyon, either. Draws? Sure. Canyons? Never. I've also never been on a hunt in Utah and not filled my tag. YOU might only get one shot opportunity wherever it is that you're hunting there, but that hasn't been my experience in hunting in your state at all. If it ever is, and the only shot I get is a cross-canyon one, if I can't easily cross the canyon to get to a downed animal, no bullet out of my rifle needs to cross it. You wrote: "and only a fool would try that with a 30-30 or the 243" Really? I'm not hunting with a stock Marlin 336 but even if mine was still as it was when I got it 47 years ago, it would have enough mechanical accuracy to handle a 300 yard shot as a 2.5 M.O.A. rifle. Back in 2007, I converted mine to a button-style half-magazine by cutting a dovetail to accept a 336 XLR magazine tube hanger block. I cut the magazine tube to half length, shortened the magazine spring, and replaced my magaine follower with a new one designed to be compatible with "gummy tip" bullets. I bought a new rear carbine band with the factory nstalled sling stud and relieved that where it goes over the barrel so the barrel can expand as it heats up. I glass-bedded the butt to the action. The rifle already had a trigger job done on it before it becae mine. When scoped with a c.1985 33mm, 2-7X Leupold Vari X IIc, it is a 1.25 M.O.A. or better rifle with the ammo I shoot through it. That ammo shoots a 160 grain Hornady FTX out of the barrel at an average velocity of 2380 fps for 2013 ft/lbs of muzzle energy. At 300 yards, the bullet is going 1891 fps and hitting with 1156 ft/lbs. It gets reliable 2X shank diameter expansion at 300 yards and penetrates 24" to 26" in calibrated 10% ballistic gel at that distance. At my local club, I can hit a 9" pie tin from the 300 yards line from unsupported standing, sitting, kneeling, and prone with that rifle and my load. Ths load delivers the same 945 ft/lbs at 400 yards that my prior 170 grain Speer Hot Core load delivered at 200 yards. When sighted in for a 200 yard zero, it has a maximum point-blank range of 267 yards but shoots flat enough to allow reliable hits by simply aiming for the top of the vital zone on shots from 200 to 300 yards. It remains supersonic out to 800 yards. So how, exactly, am I a "foor" if I take a 300 yard double-lung poke at a broadside elk with MY 336 and MY LeverEvolution dublicate handload? I've made 21 hunts in Utah in my lifetime and filled my tag every single time. The longest shot I ever made on game in Utah was a 175 yard double-lung poke at a solitary bull elk back in 2015. In all of my hunting in Utah, I've never once only had one shot opportunity and I've never once had to shoot across a canyon to fill a tag.
Injoy the show, you bring up important things to think about. Used a 308win. For 40 years. And it has served me well and I have people tell me that I can't kill a deer with a 308 they just don't know good luck on the new house have a blessed day
I live in Upstate NY east of Lake Ontario. We enjoy our hunting fields that extend from the Adirondack Mountains with underbrush so thick you can get turned around in 100ft to the Southern Tier below Syracuse with open fields and swails where shots can range to over 400 yards. The full grown Whitetails dress to between 150-200lbs but they only take so much killing. The city hunters come out with the 7mm and 300 Win Mags or the latest PRC caliber rifle with very heavy for caliber bullets at $3.00/ round. The smart hunters know the quarry and the habitat and bring enough rifle for the ranges encountered with proper bullet placement for a quick kill. Lever guns and big straight wall thumpers rule the North, 30/30, 35 Remington, 444 Marlin, 450 Bushmaster, even 44 Magnum come to mind, maybe a 308. A 150yd shot is a long one. In the Southern Tier Bolt guns and single shots like a T/C Encore get the nod nowadays. 243 Win has always been popular and limits meat damage, 6.5 Creedmoor is as common as weeds and does a great job also and from there anything from a 257 Roberts, 270 or 7mm/08 and up can be found. Many people even use the 300 Blackout (Whisper) with 110's and 125's in more populated areas and I've seen more than one 8 pointer DRT with a high shoulder shot at 150. Bottom line is IMHO any rifle you can hit reliably with, place that bullet where it needs to go at a reasonable range is the rifle for you. I wouldn't do it or recommend it but the lowly 22LR has accounted for more than a few freezer fillers when needed in my experience.
I'll always have 3 levels of centerfire rifle. .223/6.5 Grendel, .308/30-06/6.5 PRC, 300 mag/7mm mag/7mm PRC; the inclusion of old and new cartridges is intentional. My other chamberings are for fun and personal interests.
North & South Eastern hunters stick with what works in tight overgrown conditions that will cut through brush and under growth. 30-06....308....350......450....45/70. Out west things seem to be smaller caliber long range shooting. Wide open spaces!! 223......243.....250...... 257. Whatever works for your particular area!! It's wonderful to have a choice!
I used a Marlin 30-30 for the first 10 years of deer hunting. it worked fine. The only complaint I had was when the deer turned and ran into the thick stuff, or in the case of my last 30-30 hunt, into a swamp. I live in Michigan, and if I shoot something, if I am able, I'm NOT going to leave it behind. Mid November water up here is DARNED COLD! But climbing into the water is what I had to do. I would NEVER do it again, unless MAYBE if it was a Boone and Crocket non typical. I went to a 300 Win Mag after that. Deer don't run when you shoot them with a 300 Win Mag. Nor do they run when you shoot them with a 45-70. But, I am a big man, and recoil doesn't really bother me much. At least of the guns that I have shot so far. I have never shot any of the African Safari riffle's, or a long range sniper rifle. So I honestly can not remark about those. If I were smaller, or more recoil sensitive, I can not imagine hunting with my"big boy's". I would encourage everyone to shoot a rifle that is within their recoil ability. but I would also encourage everyone to shoot something more powerful every few years.
I hunted all over Pennsylvania, Georgia, North Carolina and Alabama. All the deer I ever killed. I killed with my 244 Remington never had a problem. Have to complete confidence in that rifle
Light cartridges are great when you can pick your shot, last day of the season and the freezer not full I'm carrying a rifle that is effective for any presantion that is offered
For some reason people are always intrigued by the extreme calibers. What minimum can they get away with, or what magnum can they use to blow the animal to pieces. The sensible and educated answer is somewhere in the middle. I live in middle Georgia and a 200lb buck is a big one. With that said, I've settled on a boring 6.5 Creedmoor. Cheers.
Boy, the number of hours I've spent in the evenings around the campfire at a hunting camp discussing (arguing) about various cartridges for various game animals. - "My 7mm Rem Mag is perfect because it shoots laser straight for 800 yards. I never have to worry about elevation!" (Oh, really???) - "My .257 Roberts is perfect for grizzly bears 'cause those long skinny bullets just drill right through 'em!" (Are you sure about that?) Mr. 7mm Rem Mag got very offended when I tried to explain about... gravity. ("When a bullet goes that fast, gravity don't count!") Had Mr. 257 Roberts ever taken a grizzly with that cartridge? ("No, but my brother-in-law swears by it.") Is the .243 Win a good cartridge for deer, even the biggest of mulies? Absolutely! A good hunting bullet like the 100 gr. Nosler Partition properly placed is lethal on all deer, even moose although I wouldn't recommend it. For moose, move up to a .270 Win, a 30-06 or that 7mm Rem Mag.
To me it depends on what you’re hunting we have elk where I live and elk takes hits a lot of times and will keep on trucking and for them I do like the magnum cartridges but bullet selection is more important I believe now for deer I think the magnum cartridges are over kill and a lot of times ruins to much meat
Well said. There is a few bullets that might get to the vitals of a deer with small calibers..n Some that won't hold together in bigger ones.Always Use the right bullet.
Cousin Carlton used a 336 marlin in 32 special for the first 30 yesrs of his hunting career. Any deer bear or elk within 200 yds was mezt on the pole. No scope. When his eye sight faded he bought a browning bar 7 mag with scope those were his only hunting rifles till the day he died. He killed many hundreds of big game animals with two rifles.
Great summary. I think the key is to respect your personal limits as a shooter and the ballistic limits of your cartridge, bullet design and rifle combination. While you might be fine with a 223 Rem at 100 yards broad side on deer, should you take a quartering away shot at 400? I know I wouldn’t.
I live in maine, and our hunting strategies here are very different than most places. We still hunt, and sometimes in very thick woods we’re shots are under 25 yards. So yes at those ranges Maine state law lets us hunt whitetails from 22 WMR an up. But nobody that I know here uses anything under a 243. And it’s not because the small calibers won’t kill a whitetail. It’s because if a deer runs 75 yards or more with no blood trail. Your chances of finding that deer are slim to none. I know people that has walked by a deer laying underneath a fir tree 3 times before they found it. And it was the following day. And yes the deer in the north are a lot bigger and tougher because the cold and snowy winters are very hard on the herd. Only the strong ones survive. Mostly everyone I know loves there 30 cal and for good reason. We like a good blood trail. Most still hunters only use the iron sights because many of us hunt while it is snowing and render the scope useless. A 3030 lever gun and a remington 760/7600 308/270/3006 are very popular here for quick 2nd shots. So I guess my thoughts are what area you hunt in depends on what gun you need. A 7mm mag with a 24 in barrel and 12x scope here is about as useful as taking a 22lr elk hunting. In the north a big whitetail can weigh in at 250 plus on the hoof. So a 30/35 caliber punches a good hole in the lungs, leaves a good blood trail. Nobody here cares about ballistic coefficient. If you hit one at 200 yards in a potato field that’s a long shot. And that still can be done with an iron sights in 308.
Randy, I absolutely love still hunting and I personally think that's the best way to hunt but our woods get to crowded during rifle season and still hunting is just to dangerous. But that's how I normally hunt with a muzzle loader during our primitive weapon season.
I'm not sure if i can get behind a 243 as a good choice for deer hunting. I know its capable but i personally think better options are available. I've always been of the belief I'd rather have it and not need as to need it and not have it. As always great video and to each their own.
There is always something bigger and “better” no matter what cartridge you’re talking about. 243 on deer is more than fine. I know a couple die hard elk hunters here in Wyoming who use 243 exclusively. I’ve used a 223 for pronghorn quite a bit and have had excellent success. Farthest shot has been about 125 yards though.
I have , with my own eyes seen a poacher drop in its tracks, a 6 point buck with a 22lr single shot bolt gun. That deer did not flinch kick or twitch, it just droped dead.
A rancher in CA taught me how to shoot. His main rifle was a Marlin bolt action .22 with a 6x scope. He could drop goats and cows for the butcher with a single shot inside 75 yards. He also used that rifle with hollow point bullets for coyotes, rabbits, and other varmints. He even took a few deer with it. He knew the rifle and its limitations and used it well.
I mostly use 5.56 Barnes 62 or 70 grn. Of course I see your point, if hunting was such a small part of a person's life they had to hunt public or club land it may be more important to be able to take any shot. The sun is getting lower at my house, guaranteed if I go outside now I'll see a deer within 30 min. That's because I take it seriously enough to buy a home in that spot for exactly that reason. Only problem is coyotes eat your pets and bears eat your trash, and the closest store of any kind is 18 miles.
Eastern hunting is a different from western hunting and more in thick woodlands. It is important that the cartridge make a good blood trail for finding large game. The 243 or any of the six-millimeter cartridges work but not as well as larger heavy bullets can. Western hunting shooting distance is longer on average in more open conditions. Most western guide services suggest practice shooting 200-yards for preparing for your hunt. They also give suggestions of the popular cartridges and bullet types to bring. The western hunter likes a cartridge and rifle that covers using for varmints and deer. The 30-06 is one rifle I noticed that is recommended by all I asked. 🤔
Gizmo, not leaving enough blood was the biggest compliant I heard from everyone I know personally that hunted with a 223. All of them said they got their deer but it didn't take but one or two deer and they realized that it was just going to be a matter of time before they lost one because it just didn't leave enough blood even if they got a complete pass through.
You wrote: "Western hunting shooting distance is longer on average in more open conditions." I've hunted for 47 consecutive seasons, mostly in the wide- open of the wide open west. The longest shot I've ever taken on game was 278 yards on a broadside California high desert mule deer. That was back in 1994. If I'd have had LeverEveloution ammo or the components to duplicate it, I could have made that shot with my .30-30 and got the same end result. I'm a "still hunter." Even in really open country, my shots are most often measured in dozens of yards rather than hundreds of them.
I've know folks that have taken feral pigs and deer with the 22 magnum rimfire. Know a fellow who has hunted and killed deer with a Ruger 22 Hornet for years and happy and satisfied with it. He did pick shots carefully . Know other hunters that live by 7mm Rem mag and 300 Win mag. Thing is , I help many other hunters track deer shot with the 7mm mag more than any other calibers. Shot placement is what counts the most.
Here in Germany we usually hunt within 50m to 100m, a .223 is enough for a deer. For the rest I own a Mauser M18 in 6,5 x 55, very popular in Sweden, Norway and Finnland for Elk.
In Iowa, I’ll stick to my 45-70 since we’re straight wall only. But I have no doubt my .243 can take our big white tails. We have a January antlerless only rifle season and to say you Need a big bore is nonsense.
I had relatives who always used magnums for whitetail, never shot anything over 200 or so yards. People who hunted the same land would use 30-30 and got the same number and size of deer. Would always laugh my ass off on zeroing day when the magnum guys would flinching.
Stanley, it is an outstanding cartridge but it's one I've never used or even shot. And that's odd considering how many old Mauser's are out there in 8mm and I've seen tons of 7mm Mausers around here but never an 8.
I’ve always said the 223 is an expert only caliber for big game, because the hunter must exercise the most restraint in shot selection of nearly any cartridge. For work I’ve euthanized pronghorn, deer, and elk, all at fairly close ranges, with the 223 and 70 grain TSXs. Normal broadside shots for the most part, but I did intentionally shoot a pronghorn in the front shoulder once due to circumstances and it was still a pass through shot.
Having said all of that, I generally HUNT deer and elk with a 270WSM for many of the reasons discussed at the end of this video. I will hunt pronghorn with a 223 though, and I have a new Xbolt i plan to use this year.
I think the 223 can work on deer. But from my experiences i think it should be used in the open. All the deer i have shot with it they don't leave a blood trail. In the open thats normally fine. But in the fl swamps no blood trail not good. I like a 358 or 45-70 for that. And i really like the 6mm remington for a all around rifle.
TBJ, I have a bag 6mm brass in the shop now. I bought that bag of brass and I don't even own 6mm, but if the Lord is willing I'll own one day! And I completely agree that it's an outstanding cartridge!
@@TomRiverSimpleLivingi got my wife a 6mm remington in 77 ruger. She loves it. I had been using my bigger calibers. I had my first shoulder problems bake in the early 00's. And if she was not using her rifle I did. A big for fl. 8 pt cam out in my hay field. At 200yd a 6mm hornady interlock enter his shoulder on the left side took out the hart went into the other shoulder and was a perfect mushroom just under the hid. It worked grate on her deer. And in fl at that time we had no season bag limits so we shot deer for the older folks around that did not or could not hunt. Any way the next fathers day she and my kids got me a 6mm remington In a ruger 77 m2. Since then we pick up some more. Tough a few kids on them and a few single women that wanted to learn to hunt. For here its a grate all around rifle deer ,hogs, coyotes and you can use it on private land turkey. If they bring back bear hunting. It would be on the light side but with a good bullet and shot placement it should work. I picked up a cz mauser 98 j7 interarms inported late 60 in 6mm remington barrel grate. The stock needs refinishing. Most of the white spacers are missing and the ca. Come over stock could stand to lose a bit of thickness. It has the ebony front pice and pistol grip cap. My wife thinks it needs to be finished in cherry wood stane. She said it would match her saddle and rifle case. The way it looks its probably going to be her rifle. Lol
The thing is that people have been arguing for generations as to what is the best cartridge(s) for hunting, and I don't think there is one right answer. The terrain, weather, location, game, local laws, etc. are all going to influence what gun and caliber a person likes to hunt with. For some it is going to be a Winchester Model 70 in 30-06 Springfield. For others it is going to be a flintlock muzzleloader. Still others it might just be a Trapdoor Springfield in 45-70 gov. And the list goes on. I think it is better for a person to know their personal limitations, the limitations of their equipment, and to hunt according to it. For example the .338 winmag is an excellent caliber for deer and elk, but it isn't a gun that is for the faint of heart or the weekend warrior hunter. And how many times are lightweight guns in the used racks that are .300 winmags? In my experience I see them there often and in nice shape too because a person bought a caliber weight combination that has nasty recoil. And the most important question that none of the hunting shows on the Outdoor Channel will ever ask is how far a person is willing to pack out the game they shot. I remember in my high school math class one of the students talking about the elk they had shot the previous day. It had taken them along with the husband of the math teacher well into the night to quarter it and pack it out, and they had 4-wheelers to boot!
Ive killed deer with a 223 55 gr all the way to a 300 win mag and a 200 grn bullet. I settled in on a 25-06. the smaller the round the more important bullet construction is!
That vmax is dumping all of that energy exactly where it needs to, in the vitals. But I still can't get up the courage to try a 223 on deer even though I know it works. LOL
@@TomRiverSimpleLiving it was all I had one year & had kids to feed, started using 62gr sp bullet's. Once it worked I stayed with it. But I have a 308 coming, you have to be disciplined to use the 223
I started using the .223 the first season that California made it a lawful method of take for deer. It wasn't the cartridge I was in love with, but the stainless steel of the Mini-14 I had, back when stainless steel rifles weren't all that common. I wanted that stainless steel because I was backpacking into a coastal wilderness and I had a commanding ocean view from my campsite, which I'd sometimes have to occupy for 14 days in order to fill my tag. The first deer I shot with it weighed about 100 pounds on the hoof and I center-punched his vital zone on a 90 yard broadside shot. What happened after he took the hit was the very definition of "Dead Right There." He litterally died in his tracks. After tagging him, I opened him up and quickly found out why. It didn't let the air out of his lungs. It turned them into pink, frothy, liquid goo. Me and the Mini-14 didn't agree, so I got a stainless .223 barrel for my stainless-frame Contender carbine. and commenced to using the 55 grain Barnes monometal bullet when they came out. Pop and flop, 13 California A-Zone seasons in a row.
Here in Newfoundland you can legally hunt Moose with 243….not my choice personally, But many people can and do reliably kill moose within 100-150 yards with 243. Bullet placement and knowing your ranges are the key to an ethical kill.
Prior to the 30-30, the 44-40 killed more deer than any other cartridge. It would be considered weak by today's standards. One of the largest bucks ever recorded was taken with the 25-20, another weak cartridge.
Anybody saying a .243 is inadequate for a whitetail deer just has a problem with proper shot placement when it comes time to shoot. There is a reason why it is important to know your gun. Most people only shoot their guns to confirm the scope is still sighted in and at an animal, and that is not fair to the animal in my opinion. As a hunter one of the biggest responsibilities in my opinion is to kill that animal with as little drama as possible. I have made a bad shot before and it sucked knowing that animal suffered longer then it should have. A heart shot by a .243 is no less effective then by a 30-06.
For deer, and the videos I've seen of people hunting them, I can understand why American Hunters like the 7mm08. If I had to hunt in the U.S. I would probably hunt 90% of the time with a 6.5 Creedmoor. For the bigger things, Caribou Elk and particularly Moose, a 30-06, but how often do peeps get a chance to shoot at those.
Pick the cartridge/ rifle that one is accurate with. Its no good hitting the woods with a 300 Win mag and shoot with a flinch because ya are scared of the slap ya get when pulling the trigger. Give that same person a 30-30 or a 6.5 grendel and they start putting down deer with no issue.
Different sized people/ different size guns.there is this wise old English indian saying when he was watching a charging cape Buffalo; Eye braught enough GUN. Only fair for your quarry. 😂
I hear 'people kill deer with a bow' as an argument for the efficiency of small calibers on large game. I do not think this is a reasonable comparison. Broadheads are designed to penetrate deeply and cause major hemorrhage if placed properly and shot with appropriate velocity. If done so an arrow is just as efficient as a large caliber bullet. It just isn't a reasonable argument to support 500 yard shots with a Creedmoor on Elk for example, which I have heard more than once. That particular argument would be credible if elk were effectively harvested with a 40 pound bow at 60 yards... We live in a time where inappropriate calibers are 'marketed' by individuals on youtube all the time and it is spreading like like wildfire through the inexperienced youth of today. IMHO it is high time to legislate more minimum caliber requirements.
Just to be clear though, I think a 243 or 257 Roberts (my main deer rifle for years) are perfectly fine deer cartridges. But the extreme end of the small cartridge spectrum has shifted so much that we see videos like parents overseeing their kids shooting Elk with a 6.5 Grendle at 400 yards on youtube these days. It was bad enough with the 6.5 Creedmoor taking Elk at 400 plus on youtube vids.... Nobody post the video of the wounded Elk that was never recovered. It just makes me sick to my stomache to be honest. We need to stop with the philosophy of 'if you feel comfortable with it it is your choice' IMHO.@@TomRiverSimpleLiving
Joe, I wouldn't try a full length body shot from directly behind but if I could catch a piece of any rib I'm confident I could get the bullet to vitals.
I'm the "Jerrold" mentioned in the video.
Prior to 2006 / 2007, I would not have been able to get by with just my Marlin 336 in .30-30 as my only center-fire hunting rifle.
For general-purpose big-game hunting in North America, I need a rifle that shoots flat enough for me to reliably hit a 9" pie tin out to 300 yards and the ammunition has to have enough terminal performance at that distance to take elk with proper shot placement.
Hornady's LeverEvolution ammo in .30-30, and the availability of component bullets and powder required to duplicate it, are what transformed my 336 from a specialized, "situational use" tool into a general-purpose hunting rifle,
Around the time that LeverEvolution came out, I was making my living as a licensed guide, a lecturer and seminar presenter, and a freelance writer with masthead credit as a contributing editor for multiple publications One of the perks of that "hunting and fishing lifestyle occupation" was access to products for testing and evaluation. That's how I got my hands on the first few boxes of LeverEvolution I tried.
Testing revealed that the stuff didn't just "add a little extra range" to my "dense eastern woods whitetail whacker."
Here's what the stuff did out of my rifle, expressed as Distance) Velocity / Energy:
M) 2380 / 2013 100) 2176 / 1683 200) 1983 / 1397 300) 1801 / 1152 400) 1631 / 945
In shooting calibrated 10% ballistics gel at 300 yards, the bullets demonstrated reliable 2X shank diameter expansion and striaght-line penetration of 24" to 26" .
That transformed my old 336 from "dense eastern woods whitetail whacker" to "capable of killing elk out to 300 yards" in my estimation. My general purpose hand load duplicates this performance. This load has the same power at 400 yards that my prior 170 grain Speer Hot Core tipped load had at 225. My particular 336 got 2.5 M.O.A. groups with it when it was still in the form I received it in as an 11 year old kid in 1976. There wasn't any significant lateral dispersion of the groups, but there was significant vertical stringing,
I modded the rife by cutting a dovetail in the barrel to accept a Marlin 336 XLR mag tube hanger block. I located that in a position appropriate for a half-length magazine, cut my mag tube and spring to the required length, replaced the follower with a new "gummy tip compatible" unit, replaced my retained rear carbine band with a new one having the sling stud attached and relieved that band where it goes over the barrel to give the barrel space to expand when it heats up, and I glass-bedded the butt to the action and capped the butt off with a thin but effective recoil pad. The rifle had pro trigger work done to it before it became mine, so I didn't need to do anything there.
The result is a 1.25 M.O.A. or better lever-action with sufficient ballistics to take any game I care to in North America out to 300 yards when paired with the right ammo. That "out to 300 yards" bit is significant to me, because in 47 seasons of hunting, mostly in the wide open spaces of the wide open west, the longest shot I've ever taken on game in a sport-hunting situation (as opposed to the shooting I've had to do when guiding) was a 278 yard double-lung poke at a broadside California high desert mule deer. 300 yards also happens to be about as far off as I can reliably hit a common 9" pie tin from unsupported standing, sitting, kneeling, and prone positions on every single attempt.
As a still-hunter, I can't imagine a more perfect combination. I had the right rifle from the beginning. I just didn't have the right ammo for it.
Now I do.
PS: You might have to be a hard-core still-hunter to appreciate the significance of getting 300 yard power and reach from a modest average starting velocity of 2380 fps, but I think most who follow the still-hunting paradigm would agree with me that even in open country, most of their shots are fairly close range affairs. Most of the game I've taken has been bedded or just getting up out of bed when shot, and generally at ranges measured in dozens of yards rather than hundreds. When the overwhelming majority of your kills happen from 0-100 yards, high velocity isn't necessarily your best friend because of the blood-shot mess of the secondary wound that is a byproduct of high impact velocity.
That "magic" was the same "magic" I found when I first tried a sporterized Lee Enfield in the field. With the .303, I could reach out to 300 yards if I had to, but I could "eat right up to the bullet hole" on 30 yard shots.
If you're the kind of person who would take a broadside double-lung poke at a bull elk from 300 yards with a .303 British, like I am, then compare what my general-purpose .30-30 load does with a common .303 hunting load shooting a 175 grain bullet at 2,400 fps. In the real world, no animal shot with my .30-30 load is going to notice the missing ..004" of bullet diameter, or the missing 15 grains of bullet weight, or the missing 20 fps in starting velocity.
I just remember what Jack O’Conner used for deer that that is good enough for me! Craig Boddington is a 30-06 or 7 rem mag. If that’s good enough for the hunter who has hunted more then any other living hunter in the world today then it’s good enough for me! In my short 60+ years of hunting collecting and reloading I have been shown be reasonable about the caliber and practice enough where your good with it!
30-06 definitely works, l once grazed a running buck at 100yd and a few pieces of rib managed to destroy both the heart and one lung without the bullet even penetrating the rib cage. I shot a huge buck in the center of it's chest and blew a baseball sized hole out the back ham. I'm older now and don't jump hunt anymore so just use 5.56 and take my time. Plus there is more meat left, but 06 certainly will take down anything even bison cleanly.
Conventional wisdom tells us that something like a Model 70 with a 26" barrel in .264 Winchester Magnum is a "western" rifle while something like a traditional lever-action is an "eastern" rifle.
Personally, I think tactics play a bigger role than location or terrain does.
My dad, his brothers, and my mother's brothers all hunted California's D-14 zone where they'd all pooled resources to buy 20 acres with a cabin on it that bordered the San Bernardino National Forest on two sides and BLM land on a third.
Almost all of them hunted the area the same way. They'd go to the terminus of a Jeep trail, and walk from their vehicles to some favored rocky outcropping with a commanding vista. They'd generally not be walking more than a mile to any of these "stands" of theirs. They'd sit there on them all day until they either shot a deer as it wandered by or the clock struck 11:00. They were counting on the deer doing all of the moving. When they figured the deer were bedded down, they went back to the cabin for lunch and a card game.
Since almost all of them hunted the same way, and were sometimes shooting to 400 yards or more, they all used Remington 742's in either .30-'06 or, in the case of a few, the .308 Winchester. Semi-auto made sense to them thanks to military indoctrination and going to war in Korea with the M-1 Garand or Vietnam with the M-14.
Uncle Bob had a radically different approach.
He went on a long, slow, deliberate walk in the wilds that was punctuated by frequent stops to thoroughly examine the country around him with field glasses. He called this "bird dogging." Many of us today would call this "still-hunting." To the uninformed, Bob's walks in the wilds might have seemed to be thoughtless wandering, but they were far from it. He had a purpose for every step he took and his route was well-thought out, taking him past springs, inside the edges of burns, and past known bedding areas, all while factoring in things like wind direction, cover and concealment, and even the time of day.
He shot most of his deer either in bed or as they were just getting out of bed and he shot them at distances measured in dozens of yards, rather than hundreds.
He carried a Winchester Model 94 in .30-30 and by "carried," I'm using that word deliberately. The rifle was in his hands from the commencement of legal shooting hours until he either filled his tag or legal shooting hours ended.
Uncle Bob was the most successful hunter in that family camp of my childhood and youth. In a zone with a pathetic hunter success rate of 7%, he was one of the seventh percentile, 100% of the time. More often than not, he had his tag filled on opening day. He would absolutely have it filled some time between the opening day of the D-14 deer season and the opening day of the upland game bird season. That's two weekends worth of hunting time.
Here's a quote to ponder:
"Guys say 'I have to shoot 400+ yards.' I say that's a load of crap. People CHOOSE to shoot that far. Look at those ugly relations of ours. They sit their ever-widening asses on some boulder or rock until 10:30 or so and put as much effort into deer hunting as they put into watching the boob-tube. They could get off their asses and walk five sections of country filled with elevation gain and decline, but that's too much like work for some people. You should thank God that you've got a great big beautiful Bob to keep you from falling victim to your uglier relation's bone-idle ways. If you hunt like I do when you get a gun of your own, you'll be shooting deer when their asleep in their beds and you'll be so close when you do it that you can't possibly miss. You won't have to spend half the day looking for your dead deer, either. It isn't going to be more than 50 to 100 yards away from where you stood when you took aim and started to squeeze the trigger."
-Uncle Bob
Uncle Bob was hunting the same terrain depicted on the Butler Creek, CA USGS topo map that my dad and other uncles hunted. He wasn't hunting it the same way, though, and didn't need the same things out of a rifle that they did. Conversely, he needed some things out of his rifle that they didn't need out of theirs.
"I'm going to Wyoming for another speed-goat hunt this year. I'm going to an area I've never been before. If it is a good country, then you and I will go together next year."
"So, you'll be buying a new rifle soon, right"? I asked.
"What in the hell do I need a new rifle for"? Bob asked in reply, adding, "I've got an old, white T-shirt, and I know how to use it"!
I had no idea what that "white T-shirt business" was all about until I went on my first pronghorn hunt with Uncle Bob.
We'd set up prone on a long finger ridge with a three-tier barbed wire fence behind us, to which Uncle Bob applied his magical T-shirt. When we first got there, and got set up, it was still too dark to see much, but in time, there was enough light to reveal a herd of pronghorn about six football fields away. When they were looking our way, Bob gave the T-shirt a little tweak. They came closer. This cycle repeated itself until Bob couldn't stand it anymore and he whispered a plan of action, in which he was going to give that shirt one more tweak and we'd quickly pick out our animal and then, on a kind of count of three scheme, we'd both fire on our animals at more or less the same time.
The result was two pronghorn on the deck. They were dead about 125 yards from our prone position.
Uncle Bob didn't really think about needing new equipment as much as he thought about how to achieve success with what he had. While it might seem that he didn't put much thought into his equipment choices, the opposite is true.
He had a Remington 760 in .300 Savage with a 4X Weaver scope on it, but he switched to the Winchester 94 in .30-30 because he felt it the superior tool, based on the still-hunting method he came to favor. "For the way I hunt, I basically need a birdgun that shoots rifle bullets. I need something that I can carry in my hands all day long and that comes up to my shoulder fast, with instant sight alignment, that I can get an aimed, killing shot off with RIGHT NOW."
It didn't matter how open or wooded the terrain was.
"I can't worry about matching a rifle to the terrain. If I did, I'd have to carry an arsenal with me in a golf-club bag, and treat shooting game like putting a stupid little ball in a cup. This club for that, that club for this, only with rifles instead of clubs. I'll cover five or six sections of a topo map or more on a hunt and often, the terrain varies from open to wooded to something in between. Best for me to focus on being a better Indian than having the perfect arrow."
Having a heated campfire discussion on rifles and calibers, or any discussion at all, was kind of difficult when Uncle Bob was sharing that same campfire. He shot his California A-Zone blacktrail and D-14 mule deer with his Model 94, and his out-of-state mule deer, elk, pronghorn, caribou, and moose with it. He shot his share of all of them, too, only very rarely "catching the skunk."
Kids these days..... They think they have to have a gun for this and another for that and yet another for some other thing.
For the whole of my life, Uncle Bob only had three firearms: A Winchester Model 94 in .30-30, a 12 gauge A y A Matador shotgun, and a Colt Frontier Scout .22 LR revolver. He might not have had a plethora of arms to use, but he certainly used the hell out of the three he had.
Back in 79 I shot my first deer, an 8 point whitetail, with a .223 at roughly 75 yards broadside. He dropped in his tracks. It wasn't the best cartridge, but it was all I had at the time. Shortly after that I stepped up to a 6mm Remington and I shot a lot of deer with that rifle. I then moved on to a 270 Winchester and again shot a lot of deer with that one. I'm currently using a 308 Winchester to harvest deer with. I've had no issues with any and for any loses I may have had it was due to a rushed shot and/or improper shot placement. I was in a disagreement with a friend just the other day. He indicated that he had handicapped his wife by giving her a .243 to hunt with. They had several deer that were shot and never found. Then he was talking about they only do neck shots so as to not lose any meat. Well, to me there in lies the problem especially with a novice hunter. The neck shot requires hitting the spine and if you are low the bullet just punches through allowing the deer to run off a long way to eventually die. He wants to blame the cartridge rather than look at the skill level and applying the highest percentage of a success with shot placement. I told him the best broadside shot is a high shoulder shot that destroys the vertebrae between the shoulders. His response was you lose meat. My reply was lose some meat, but get the deer or soot poorly at a small target and watch the deer run off and get no meat.
Another great video Tom. I've lived here on the Canadian prairies and up in the north for almost 60 years. There are a great number of people up year whose only big game rifles are 243, 250 savage and the like that take elk moose and bear every year let alone deer. you'll also come across lots of deer and elk taken with old 25-35s, 22-250s and 220 swifts. There is still alot of 303 british being used too lol. It's about where you place it not what you place. Don't let anyone tell you they won't make a good hunting cartridge cause I've seen it first hand. Thank you for all the great videos and insights and common sense. God Bless
And thank you for sharring that grumpywolverine! I'm always interested in hearing how people in other regions hunt.
I've used the 30-30 with success in the northern rockies. Up close its fine and in many ways the Marlin 336 is ideal. The downside is that it's range limited and you need to be close on elk with it. Still it can get it done but had real limitations but in the south or midwest anywhere east of the Mississippi I'd be comfortable with it and a 243win would be a ray gun in comparison.
For economy and good performance the regular 270win and 30-06 are quite good with today's new projectiles, very good.
So far, the longest shot I've ever made on an elk was 178 yards and I made it with my Marlin 336 firing a LeverEvolution duplicate hand load.
I get an average muzzel velocity of 2380 fps for 2013 ft.lns of muzzle energy. At 300 yards, math says my bullet is going about 1800 fps and hitting with 1156 ft/lns of energy. At 300 yards, those bullets reliably expand to 2X shank diameter and give 24" to 26" of stright-line penetration in calibrated 10% ballistics gel.
On a 200 yard zero, it has a max point-blank range of 267 yards, but the trajectory is easy to manage by simply aiming for the top of the vital zone from 200 to 300 yards.
300 yards isn't long range but that about as far off as I can hit a 9" pie tin with every shot when shooting from unsuported standing, sitting, kneeling and prone positions, no matter what I'm shooting.
A lot of native Alaskans use 223 on moose, just saying not me but I would use a 243 on deer and shot a 255 pound 11pt.buck with one.I've shot moose with 300wsm and deer it's awesome. My all around caliber would be the 270 win. I just love it🤠
I love your rifle videos about some good ole wood and blued steel
Plenty of horsepower in 243 winchester and up for whitetail. In my experience, bullet selection becomes more important at that point. I'll take almost any shot angle with a federal fusion in 243 winchester. Not the case with a regular cup and core. Great video Tom!
I agree 100 percent. My go to is a browning abolt medallion in 25-06 with leupold 2-7. Balanced well, and quick shouldering. I call it Thor’s hammer. Never had a deer take a step out to 300 yards.
I have to agree that setup would make for a fine deer rifle!
Very interesting take - I've hunted both WV and SC. When in WV I use full power 30-06 although in 150 gr Swift. In SC, I have begunh down loading 30-06 and even 7mm-08 - especially don't need 2950+ imo out of the 06. But, my favorite deer cartridge right now, the 6.5 Grendel with the Sierra 1720s. Although I do like the 30-30 with the newer Hornady 160s too - hand loaded of course. Good video.
Well said Tom. Love the channels...
Thanks BigT!
New favorite 7mm08
I know a lot of guys that "overgun" for midsized game with the intent to use that rifle for much larger game like elk, moose, and bear, but never actually use it for those larger animals. I always get a kick out of guys that go into the deer woods, here in Michigan, with a 300WM, 338WM, or even a 30-06, and wonder if they have enough gun for deer within 100 yards. And here, I sometimes feel silly hunting with something as powerful as my 7mm-08 and rarely getting a shot beyond 70 yards. No such thing as too dead, I suppose.
**Side note**
Karamoja Bell hunted ELEPHANTS with a........
7x57mm Mauser.
That aught to be an eye opener for many of us.
I have known a few guys like that. I'm sympathetic, because I was that guy when I was 16, and catalog shopping, in anticipation of buying my own rifle a few years. If I hadn't gotten some advice from seasoned hunters/ elders, I would have bought something that would take a water buffalo, in my ignorance.
@@seanomeirs8362 yeah, you and me both. Hilariously, the guys I'm referring to are all middle aged men who have been hunting for years. One of them actually worked at a gun store, and hunts out of a tree stand with a 300WM. I bought a 300WM several years ago, and I hardly use it. It's an alright rifle. Light weight, smooth bolt throw, but barks and bite like a rabid wolf. I couldn't imagine trying to shoot that rifle 20ft. off the forest floor. At 44 years old, I'm very content to shoot something that doesn't shake my fillings loose every time I pull the trigger. Bruised shoulders are for the young.😉
After 50 years of hunting I was late to the game using a 6.5 Creedmoor. I bought a used Savage AXIS and it opened my eyes with it's accuracy, light recoil, low cost and fantastic bullet performance with minable meat damage on everything from woodchucks to whitetails. I have many choices of rifles and calibers, as a handloader I load from 90gr to 130gr and for those sized game out to 250+ yards it's hard to beat. A 7mm/08 is also a great caliber, one of the best, but you're right, deer only take so much killing.
@@hammerheadms One guy in particular that goes with us to the range, will likely never shoot anything but paper,with his 300 win mag. He doesn't have the fitness or competence with it, to ever get that mountain goat that he dreams about. He was paying $7 a round for the ammunition that he brought to the range last time, so he is ready to go home after an hour.
@@hardball107 I have been considering a 6.5CM for my son, who is taking an interest in hunting. He's only 8 right now, but I am getting ready to train him to shoot on my .22LR. I gave some consideration to .243Win, but I think I feel better about a cartridge with heavier bullets, and only slightly more, negligible I'd say, recoil. Option 2 was maybe 350 Legend.
Hi Tom, our position in South Africa is that 99% of hunting farms don’t allow any rifle to be used for hunting is a .270. Some do allow a 6.5 creedmore for Springbuck and Blesbuck, but not many.
Reason is that there was too many game wounded with these small caliber rifles and they could not track these animals as there were no traces of blood to track the wounded animals. Bearing in mind that we don’t have any Public Hunting places in South Africa. Perhaps if you only hunt foxes, rabbits or other similar types of small game or certain birds, like a Guineafowl.
One observation I made over the years is that hunters that have regular access to hunting grounds gravitate to more modest cartridges than conventional wisdom would suggest. The 6.5x55 Swedish on elk is a good example.
On the flip side, if you have that one tag and the one hunting trip you were able to carve out of your busy life, you will take shots with a higher risk appetite (longer, not perfectly broad-side). And for that it absolutely makes sense to increase the safety margin by choosing a higher powered cartridge ( if you can competently shoot it…)
I was born and have been living in Utah my entire life of 51 yrs. I have known people and seen cow elk shot with the .243 and it hasn't been that impressive unless it's very close with a double lung, heart or neck shot. Most every person I grew up with or been hunting with almost always used a rifle chambered in 270,30-06,308,7mm rem, 300 win mag. Last couple yrs the newer cartridges have become a lot more popular. You spend a lot of time and money on hunting why limit yourself to 100-150 yards. With the hunting pressure and terrain sometimes the only shot you will get is a cross canyon of 300-400 yards and only a fool would try that with a 30-30 or the 243
I'm the "Jerrold" referenced in this video. I want to respond to a few of your comments.
You wrote: "You spend a lot of time and money on hunting why limit yourself to 100-150 yards."
I'm not limited to 150 yards because I hunt with a Marlin 336 in .30-30 and I haven't been since the advent of Hornady's LeverEvolution ammunition and the components needed to duplicate it with handloads. My limit is 300 yards, but that's not a "rifle thing." it is a "me thing." My particular Marlin 336 is mechanically accurate enough to hit a standard 9" pie tin well beyond 300 yards. The ptoblem is that I am not mechanically accurate enough to hit a 9" pie tin from unsupported standing, sitting, kneeling, and prone positions.
You wrote: "With the hunting pressure and terrain sometimes the only shot you will get is a cross canyon of 300-400 yards ........"
I've hunted 21 Utah mule deer seasons. Even though they're short in duration, I've NEVER had just one shot opportunity during the course of a Utah deer season, or any elk hunt I've been on in Utah, for that matter. I've never had t shoot across a canyon, either. Draws? Sure. Canyons? Never. I've also never been on a hunt in Utah and not filled my tag. YOU might only get one shot opportunity wherever it is that you're hunting there, but that hasn't been my experience in hunting in your state at all. If it ever is, and the only shot I get is a cross-canyon one, if I can't easily cross the canyon to get to a downed animal, no bullet out of my rifle needs to cross it.
You wrote: "and only a fool would try that with a 30-30 or the 243"
Really?
I'm not hunting with a stock Marlin 336 but even if mine was still as it was when I got it 47 years ago, it would have enough mechanical accuracy to handle a 300 yard shot as a 2.5 M.O.A. rifle.
Back in 2007, I converted mine to a button-style half-magazine by cutting a dovetail to accept a 336 XLR magazine tube hanger block. I cut the magazine tube to half length, shortened the magazine spring, and replaced my magaine follower with a new one designed to be compatible with "gummy tip" bullets. I bought a new rear carbine band with the factory nstalled sling stud and relieved that where it goes over the barrel so the barrel can expand as it heats up. I glass-bedded the butt to the action. The rifle already had a trigger job done on it before it becae mine.
When scoped with a c.1985 33mm, 2-7X Leupold Vari X IIc, it is a 1.25 M.O.A. or better rifle with the ammo I shoot through it.
That ammo shoots a 160 grain Hornady FTX out of the barrel at an average velocity of 2380 fps for 2013 ft/lbs of muzzle energy. At 300 yards, the bullet is going 1891 fps and hitting with 1156 ft/lbs. It gets reliable 2X shank diameter expansion at 300 yards and penetrates 24" to 26" in calibrated 10% ballistic gel at that distance.
At my local club, I can hit a 9" pie tin from the 300 yards line from unsupported standing, sitting, kneeling, and prone with that rifle and my load. Ths load delivers the same 945 ft/lbs at 400 yards that my prior 170 grain Speer Hot Core load delivered at 200 yards. When sighted in for a 200 yard zero, it has a maximum point-blank range of 267 yards but shoots flat enough to allow reliable hits by simply aiming for the top of the vital zone on shots from 200 to 300 yards. It remains supersonic out to 800 yards.
So how, exactly, am I a "foor" if I take a 300 yard double-lung poke at a broadside elk with MY 336 and MY LeverEvolution dublicate handload?
I've made 21 hunts in Utah in my lifetime and filled my tag every single time. The longest shot I ever made on game in Utah was a 175 yard double-lung poke at a solitary bull elk back in 2015. In all of my hunting in Utah, I've never once only had one shot opportunity and I've never once had to shoot across a canyon to fill a tag.
Injoy the show, you bring up important things to think about. Used a 308win. For 40 years. And it has served me well and I have people tell me that I can't kill a deer with a 308 they just don't know good luck on the new house have a blessed day
Thanks Roger! And it is amazing how many people don't think that even a 308 is enough deer!
I live in Upstate NY east of Lake Ontario. We enjoy our hunting fields that extend from the Adirondack Mountains with underbrush so thick you can get turned around in 100ft to the Southern Tier below Syracuse with open fields and swails where shots can range to over 400 yards. The full grown Whitetails dress to between 150-200lbs but they only take so much killing. The city hunters come out with the 7mm and 300 Win Mags or the latest PRC caliber rifle with very heavy for caliber bullets at $3.00/ round. The smart hunters know the quarry and the habitat and bring enough rifle for the ranges encountered with proper bullet placement for a quick kill. Lever guns and big straight wall thumpers rule the North, 30/30, 35 Remington, 444 Marlin, 450 Bushmaster, even 44 Magnum come to mind, maybe a 308. A 150yd shot is a long one. In the Southern Tier Bolt guns and single shots like a T/C Encore get the nod nowadays. 243 Win has always been popular and limits meat damage, 6.5 Creedmoor is as common as weeds and does a great job also and from there anything from a 257 Roberts, 270 or 7mm/08 and up can be found. Many people even use the 300 Blackout (Whisper) with 110's and 125's in more populated areas and I've seen more than one 8 pointer DRT with a high shoulder shot at 150. Bottom line is IMHO any rifle you can hit reliably with, place that bullet where it needs to go at a reasonable range is the rifle for you. I wouldn't do it or recommend it but the lowly 22LR has accounted for more than a few freezer fillers when needed in my experience.
I'll always have 3 levels of centerfire rifle. .223/6.5 Grendel, .308/30-06/6.5 PRC, 300 mag/7mm mag/7mm PRC; the inclusion of old and new cartridges is intentional.
My other chamberings are for fun and personal interests.
North & South Eastern hunters stick with what works in tight overgrown conditions that will cut through brush and under growth. 30-06....308....350......450....45/70. Out west things seem to be smaller caliber long range shooting. Wide open spaces!! 223......243.....250...... 257.
Whatever works for your particular area!! It's wonderful to have a choice!
I used a Marlin 30-30 for the first 10 years of deer hunting. it worked fine. The only complaint I had was when the deer turned and ran into the thick stuff, or in the case of my last 30-30 hunt, into a swamp. I live in Michigan, and if I shoot something, if I am able, I'm NOT going to leave it behind. Mid November water up here is DARNED COLD! But climbing into the water is what I had to do. I would NEVER do it again, unless MAYBE if it was a Boone and Crocket non typical. I went to a 300 Win Mag after that. Deer don't run when you shoot them with a 300 Win Mag. Nor do they run when you shoot them with a 45-70. But, I am a big man, and recoil doesn't really bother me much. At least of the guns that I have shot so far. I have never shot any of the African Safari riffle's, or a long range sniper rifle. So I honestly can not remark about those. If I were smaller, or more recoil sensitive, I can not imagine hunting with my"big boy's". I would encourage everyone to shoot a rifle that is within their recoil ability. but I would also encourage everyone to shoot something more powerful every few years.
I'll stick to my 308win.
No sense beating ourselves up to take a deer.
@@hammerheadmsif you can’t handle the recoil of a 308 take up golf ⛳️
I hunted all over Pennsylvania, Georgia, North Carolina and Alabama. All the deer I ever killed. I killed with my 244 Remington never had a problem. Have to complete confidence in that rifle
@@danwhite5550that’s all that matters! I’ll take any caliber on the 308 case any day of the week buddy 👍🏻
That's good point Patrick now that you mention it. There hasn't been a single bad hunting cartridge ever made that was based on the 308 or 30-06 case!
Light cartridges are great when you can pick your shot, last day of the season and the freezer not full I'm carrying a rifle that is effective for any presantion that is offered
I like a tipped accubond Long range but the littlest rifle I use is a 7mm08
My experience of years in eastern OR, 300win ruins meat, 243 kills slower and may run 1/4 mile, 308 they drop or go 30ft max.
6.5 Creedmoor and 7mm-08 are my favorite deer cartridges.
For some reason people are always intrigued by the extreme calibers. What minimum can they get away with, or what magnum can they use to blow the animal to pieces. The sensible and educated answer is somewhere in the middle. I live in middle Georgia and a 200lb buck is a big one. With that said, I've settled on a boring 6.5 Creedmoor. Cheers.
I have my Marlin (80) 30-30 for the hardwoods and a Winchester Model 70 (63) 30-06 if I want to stretch it out. I am content with both.
.243 is a popular cartridge for muskox in Greenland. Those are some pretty hefty little animals. Surely it will work on a deer, too.
Boy, the number of hours I've spent in the evenings around the campfire at a hunting camp discussing (arguing) about various cartridges for various game animals.
- "My 7mm Rem Mag is perfect because it shoots laser straight for 800 yards. I never have to worry about elevation!" (Oh, really???)
- "My .257 Roberts is perfect for grizzly bears 'cause those long skinny bullets just drill right through 'em!" (Are you sure about that?)
Mr. 7mm Rem Mag got very offended when I tried to explain about... gravity. ("When a bullet goes that fast, gravity don't count!")
Had Mr. 257 Roberts ever taken a grizzly with that cartridge? ("No, but my brother-in-law swears by it.")
Is the .243 Win a good cartridge for deer, even the biggest of mulies? Absolutely! A good hunting bullet like the 100 gr. Nosler Partition properly placed is lethal on all deer, even moose although I wouldn't recommend it. For moose, move up to a .270 Win, a 30-06 or that 7mm Rem Mag.
To me it depends on what you’re hunting we have elk where I live and elk takes hits a lot of times and will keep on trucking and for them I do like the magnum cartridges but bullet selection is more important I believe now for deer I think the magnum cartridges are over kill and a lot of times ruins to much meat
Well said.
There is a few bullets that might get to the vitals of a deer with small calibers..n Some that won't hold together in bigger ones.Always Use the right bullet.
I live and deer hunt in the Midwest. Ive seen lots of deer whitetail and muleys bucks and does taken with a 243 no problem or issues ever.
223 is too light for my liking for deer. But it's great for prairie dogs.
Cousin Carlton used a 336 marlin in 32 special for the first 30 yesrs of his hunting career. Any deer bear or elk within 200 yds was mezt on the pole. No scope. When his eye sight faded he bought a browning bar 7 mag with scope those were his only hunting rifles till the day he died. He killed many hundreds of big game animals with two rifles.
Great summary. I think the key is to respect your personal limits as a shooter and the ballistic limits of your cartridge, bullet design and rifle combination.
While you might be fine with a 223 Rem at 100 yards broad side on deer, should you take a quartering away shot at 400? I know I wouldn’t.
I live in maine, and our hunting strategies here are very different than most places. We still hunt, and sometimes in very thick woods we’re shots are under 25 yards. So yes at those ranges Maine state law lets us hunt whitetails from 22 WMR an up. But nobody that I know here uses anything under a 243. And it’s not because the small calibers won’t kill a whitetail. It’s because if a deer runs 75 yards or more with no blood trail. Your chances of finding that deer are slim to none. I know people that has walked by a deer laying underneath a fir tree 3 times before they found it. And it was the following day.
And yes the deer in the north are a lot bigger and tougher because the cold and snowy winters are very hard on the herd. Only the strong ones survive. Mostly everyone I know loves there 30 cal and for good reason. We like a good blood trail. Most still hunters only use the iron sights because many of us hunt while it is snowing and render the scope useless. A 3030 lever gun and a remington 760/7600 308/270/3006 are very popular here for quick 2nd shots. So I guess my thoughts are what area you hunt in depends on what gun you need. A 7mm mag with a 24 in barrel and 12x scope here is about as useful as taking a 22lr elk hunting. In the north a big whitetail can weigh in at 250 plus on the hoof. So a 30/35 caliber punches a good hole in the lungs, leaves a good blood trail. Nobody here cares about ballistic coefficient. If you hit one at 200 yards in a potato field that’s a long shot. And that still can be done with an iron sights in 308.
Randy, I absolutely love still hunting and I personally think that's the best way to hunt but our woods get to crowded during rifle season and still hunting is just to dangerous. But that's how I normally hunt with a muzzle loader during our primitive weapon season.
I'm not sure if i can get behind a 243 as a good choice for deer hunting. I know its capable but i personally think better options are available. I've always been of the belief I'd rather have it and not need as to need it and not have it. As always great video and to each their own.
308guy, I felt the same way for a lot of years!
There is always something bigger and “better” no matter what cartridge you’re talking about. 243 on deer is more than fine. I know a couple die hard elk hunters here in Wyoming who use 243 exclusively. I’ve used a 223 for pronghorn quite a bit and have had excellent success. Farthest shot has been about 125 yards though.
I have , with my own eyes seen a poacher drop in its tracks, a 6 point buck with a 22lr single shot bolt gun. That deer did not flinch kick or twitch, it just droped dead.
A rancher in CA taught me how to shoot. His main rifle was a Marlin bolt action .22 with a 6x scope. He could drop goats and cows for the butcher with a single shot inside 75 yards. He also used that rifle with hollow point bullets for coyotes, rabbits, and other varmints. He even took a few deer with it. He knew the rifle and its limitations and used it well.
I mostly use 5.56 Barnes 62 or 70 grn. Of course I see your point, if hunting was such a small part of a person's life they had to hunt public or club land it may be more important to be able to take any shot. The sun is getting lower at my house, guaranteed if I go outside now I'll see a deer within 30 min. That's because I take it seriously enough to buy a home in that spot for exactly that reason. Only problem is coyotes eat your pets and bears eat your trash, and the closest store of any kind is 18 miles.
Your home sounds like where I grew up, minus the bears.
Eastern hunting is a different from western hunting and more in thick woodlands. It is important that the cartridge make a good blood trail for finding large game. The 243 or any of the six-millimeter cartridges work but not as well as larger heavy bullets can.
Western hunting shooting distance is longer on average in more open conditions. Most western guide services suggest practice shooting 200-yards for preparing for your hunt. They also give suggestions of the popular cartridges and bullet types to bring. The western hunter likes a cartridge and rifle that covers using for varmints and deer. The 30-06 is one rifle I noticed that is recommended by all I asked. 🤔
Gizmo, not leaving enough blood was the biggest compliant I heard from everyone I know personally that hunted with a 223. All of them said they got their deer but it didn't take but one or two deer and they realized that it was just going to be a matter of time before they lost one because it just didn't leave enough blood even if they got a complete pass through.
You wrote: "Western hunting shooting distance is longer on average in more open conditions."
I've hunted for 47 consecutive seasons, mostly in the wide- open of the wide open west. The longest shot I've ever taken on game was 278 yards on a broadside California high desert mule deer. That was back in 1994. If I'd have had LeverEveloution ammo or the components to duplicate it, I could have made that shot with my .30-30 and got the same end result.
I'm a "still hunter." Even in really open country, my shots are most often measured in dozens of yards rather than hundreds of them.
I've know folks that have taken feral pigs and deer with the 22 magnum rimfire. Know a fellow who has hunted and killed deer with a Ruger 22 Hornet for years and happy and satisfied with it. He did pick shots carefully .
Know other hunters that live by 7mm Rem mag and 300 Win mag.
Thing is , I help many other hunters track deer shot with the 7mm mag more than any other calibers. Shot placement is what counts the most.
Here in Germany we usually hunt within 50m to 100m, a .223 is enough for a deer.
For the rest I own a Mauser M18 in 6,5 x 55, very popular in Sweden, Norway and Finnland for Elk.
In Iowa, I’ll stick to my 45-70 since we’re straight wall only. But I have no doubt my .243 can take our big white tails. We have a January antlerless only rifle season and to say you Need a big bore is nonsense.
I had relatives who always used magnums for whitetail, never shot anything over 200 or so yards. People who hunted the same land would use 30-30 and got the same number and size of deer. Would always laugh my ass off on zeroing day when the magnum guys would flinching.
Tom,
Why haven't you shown any love yet for the 8mm Mauser? What a great cartridge! I really enjoy your videos, by the way.
Stanley, it is an outstanding cartridge but it's one I've never used or even shot. And that's odd considering how many old Mauser's are out there in 8mm and I've seen tons of 7mm Mausers around here but never an 8.
I’ve always said the 223 is an expert only caliber for big game, because the hunter must exercise the most restraint in shot selection of nearly any cartridge. For work I’ve euthanized pronghorn, deer, and elk, all at fairly close ranges, with the 223 and 70 grain TSXs. Normal broadside shots for the most part, but I did intentionally shoot a pronghorn in the front shoulder once due to circumstances and it was still a pass through shot.
Having said all of that, I generally HUNT deer and elk with a 270WSM for many of the reasons discussed at the end of this video. I will hunt pronghorn with a 223 though, and I have a new Xbolt i plan to use this year.
I will stick with 308 win or 6.5 creedmoor
I think the 223 can work on deer. But from my experiences i think it should be used in the open. All the deer i have shot with it they don't leave a blood trail. In the open thats normally fine. But in the fl swamps no blood trail not good.
I like a 358 or 45-70 for that.
And i really like the 6mm remington for a all around rifle.
TBJ, I have a bag 6mm brass in the shop now. I bought that bag of brass and I don't even own 6mm, but if the Lord is willing I'll own one day! And I completely agree that it's an outstanding cartridge!
@@TomRiverSimpleLivingi got my wife a 6mm remington in 77 ruger. She loves it. I had been using my bigger calibers.
I had my first shoulder problems bake in the early 00's. And if she was not using her rifle I did. A big for fl. 8 pt cam out in my hay field. At 200yd a 6mm hornady interlock enter his shoulder on the left side took out the hart went into the other shoulder and was a perfect mushroom just under the hid. It worked grate on her deer.
And in fl at that time we had no season bag limits so we shot deer for the older folks around that did not or could not hunt.
Any way the next fathers day she and my kids got me a 6mm remington In a ruger 77 m2. Since then we pick up some more. Tough a few kids on them and a few single women that wanted to learn to hunt.
For here its a grate all around rifle deer ,hogs, coyotes and you can use it on private land turkey.
If they bring back bear hunting. It would be on the light side but with a good bullet and shot placement it should work.
I picked up a cz mauser 98 j7 interarms inported late 60 in 6mm remington barrel grate. The stock needs refinishing.
Most of the white spacers are missing and the ca. Come over stock could stand to lose a bit of thickness.
It has the ebony front pice and pistol grip cap.
My wife thinks it needs to be finished in cherry wood stane. She said it would match her saddle and rifle case.
The way it looks its probably going to be her rifle. Lol
The thing is that people have been arguing for generations as to what is the best cartridge(s) for hunting, and I don't think there is one right answer. The terrain, weather, location, game, local laws, etc. are all going to influence what gun and caliber a person likes to hunt with. For some it is going to be a Winchester Model 70 in 30-06 Springfield. For others it is going to be a flintlock muzzleloader. Still others it might just be a Trapdoor Springfield in 45-70 gov. And the list goes on.
I think it is better for a person to know their personal limitations, the limitations of their equipment, and to hunt according to it. For example the .338 winmag is an excellent caliber for deer and elk, but it isn't a gun that is for the faint of heart or the weekend warrior hunter. And how many times are lightweight guns in the used racks that are .300 winmags? In my experience I see them there often and in nice shape too because a person bought a caliber weight combination that has nasty recoil.
And the most important question that none of the hunting shows on the Outdoor Channel will ever ask is how far a person is willing to pack out the game they shot. I remember in my high school math class one of the students talking about the elk they had shot the previous day. It had taken them along with the husband of the math teacher well into the night to quarter it and pack it out, and they had 4-wheelers to boot!
In Piemonte (Italy) it is not allowed to shot deer with less than 7rem (exept 270win that is also ok). With my 264 win mag I cannot hunt deer
A friend of mine killed five elk with his .257 Roberts while living in Wyoming. But he also told me he thought the .30-06 was better for elk.
Ive killed deer with a 223 55 gr all the way to a 300 win mag and a 200 grn bullet. I settled in on a 25-06. the smaller the round the more important bullet construction is!
7mm08 is for me
I've used the 223 with 55gr VMAX for 12 years and never had to track any of them & lost none of them. Bullet placement and limited range is the key.
That vmax is dumping all of that energy exactly where it needs to, in the vitals. But I still can't get up the courage to try a 223 on deer even though I know it works. LOL
@@TomRiverSimpleLiving it was all I had one year & had kids to feed, started using 62gr sp bullet's. Once it worked I stayed with it. But I have a 308 coming, you have to be disciplined to use the 223
I started using the .223 the first season that California made it a lawful method of take for deer. It wasn't the cartridge I was in love with, but the stainless steel of the Mini-14 I had, back when stainless steel rifles weren't all that common. I wanted that stainless steel because I was backpacking into a coastal wilderness and I had a commanding ocean view from my campsite, which I'd sometimes have to occupy for 14 days in order to fill my tag.
The first deer I shot with it weighed about 100 pounds on the hoof and I center-punched his vital zone on a 90 yard broadside shot. What happened after he took the hit was the very definition of "Dead Right There." He litterally died in his tracks.
After tagging him, I opened him up and quickly found out why. It didn't let the air out of his lungs. It turned them into pink, frothy, liquid goo.
Me and the Mini-14 didn't agree, so I got a stainless .223 barrel for my stainless-frame Contender carbine. and commenced to using the 55 grain Barnes monometal bullet when they came out. Pop and flop, 13 California A-Zone seasons in a row.
Here in Newfoundland you can legally hunt Moose with 243….not my choice personally, But many people can and do reliably kill moose within 100-150 yards with 243. Bullet placement and knowing your ranges are the key to an ethical kill.
A lot of western outfitters and guides recommend larger cartridges to new clients or guys they know won't be good shooters.
Best gun? 155mm Howitzer and it field dresses. Just need a Easter egg basket.
Prior to the 30-30, the 44-40 killed more deer than any other cartridge. It would be considered weak by today's standards. One of the largest bucks ever recorded was taken with the 25-20, another weak cartridge.
Anybody saying a .243 is inadequate for a whitetail deer just has a problem with proper shot placement when it comes time to shoot. There is a reason why it is important to know your gun. Most people only shoot their guns to confirm the scope is still sighted in and at an animal, and that is not fair to the animal in my opinion. As a hunter one of the biggest responsibilities in my opinion is to kill that animal with as little drama as possible. I have made a bad shot before and it sucked knowing that animal suffered longer then it should have. A heart shot by a .243 is no less effective then by a 30-06.
For deer, and the videos I've seen of people hunting them, I can understand why American Hunters like the 7mm08.
If I had to hunt in the U.S. I would probably hunt 90% of the time with a 6.5 Creedmoor. For the bigger things, Caribou Elk and particularly Moose, a 30-06, but how often do peeps get a chance to shoot at those.
ARs and AKs are the best for deer and hog.
Pick the cartridge/ rifle that one is accurate with. Its no good hitting the woods with a 300 Win mag and shoot with a flinch because ya are scared of the slap ya get when pulling the trigger. Give that same person a 30-30 or a 6.5 grendel and they start putting down deer with no issue.
Different sized people/ different size guns.there is this wise old English indian saying when he was watching a charging cape Buffalo; Eye braught enough GUN. Only fair for your quarry. 😂
I live in the midwest and the .243 knocks em down just like others. But we all need things to talk about, lol.
I've often wondered how hours Indians spent debating the fluting on arrowheads? There are some things that I don't think ever change.
LOL@@TomRiverSimpleLiving
A .22 LR has killed more deer than what most ppl know. To each ones own. Ive killed with a .300RUM down to a .22 Buckmark
I SHOT DEER WITH 220 SWIFT
I SHOT A Moose with a 220 swift
People will believe whatever they want to believe. Cartridges, religions, politics etc...
you just make way to much sense
I hear 'people kill deer with a bow' as an argument for the efficiency of small calibers on large game. I do not think this is a reasonable comparison. Broadheads are designed to penetrate deeply and cause major hemorrhage if placed properly and shot with appropriate velocity. If done so an arrow is just as efficient as a large caliber bullet. It just isn't a reasonable argument to support 500 yard shots with a Creedmoor on Elk for example, which I have heard more than once. That particular argument would be credible if elk were effectively harvested with a 40 pound bow at 60 yards... We live in a time where inappropriate calibers are 'marketed' by individuals on youtube all the time and it is spreading like like wildfire through the inexperienced youth of today. IMHO it is high time to legislate more minimum caliber requirements.
You said exactly what I was thinking
Great point about broadheads. Razor blades rolling around inside an animal do cause a serous amount of damage on soft tissue.
Just to be clear though, I think a 243 or 257 Roberts (my main deer rifle for years) are perfectly fine deer cartridges. But the extreme end of the small cartridge spectrum has shifted so much that we see videos like parents overseeing their kids shooting Elk with a 6.5 Grendle at 400 yards on youtube these days. It was bad enough with the 6.5 Creedmoor taking Elk at 400 plus on youtube vids.... Nobody post the video of the wounded Elk that was never recovered. It just makes me sick to my stomache to be honest. We need to stop with the philosophy of 'if you feel comfortable with it it is your choice' IMHO.@@TomRiverSimpleLiving
If you use a nolz. partition 243 how much angle you get away with
Joe, I wouldn't try a full length body shot from directly behind but if I could catch a piece of any rib I'm confident I could get the bullet to vitals.