13 Reasons Why on Netflix is A BAD SHOW
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- čas přidán 8. 09. 2024
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They had mental health professionals on set and then IGNORED them. These people told them not to show the suicide or rape and they ignored them and did it anyway. The show runners don't care about the mentally ill in my opinion, they just wanted a show that was gratuitous and shocking.
Rebecca Jonas yeah, and it worked. it was made to make money. i study media. it’s really sad... though, at least it started a conversation :’)
@@Penguinstudios123 but, it didn't. Nobody is actually talking about it, or rather, they're doing "Walk Up, Not Out" instead of actually talking about anything, they're putting up posters about suicide instead of talking about it in class and actively handing out resources to everyone, they're saying "100% ZERO (0) TOLERANCE POLICY ON BULLYING" and then not even showing the people most likely to get bullied [example: Becky Susan white girl with brown hair gets called a loser for no reason and has her books knocked out of her hands, the class then feels bad for Becky Susan for, at most, twenty minutes, but goes on about their day making fun of fat, poc, LGBT, neurodivergent kids like nothing even happened] that show didn't do anything but shock people, it useless, and stupid anyways, especially since She (I forgot her name) literally walked into the guidance counselors office with the intent of not actually getting our even accepting help. Ffs, it didn't help anything
As someone who connected wholely to the show, I can get very defensive. I understand when I step out of my bubble/mind how it can be negative to the portrayal of mental health or very triggering for many people. I have to admit it was triggering me for too but yet somehow it became an escapism situation where i can "relive" but change?? I dont think I'll make sense to many. But honestly the show has helped me so much to cope with my situation and I truly love it for that. I'm sure the experience will be different for everyone but to me, it was perfect for my situation and helped me cope and understand that I have other ways out.
Gotta agree, having seen both seasons now, the scene of her actual suicide and the scene in the last episode of season 2 where Tyler was raped, those two scenes were some of the most disturbing, hard hitting and raw scenes I've ever watched. In essence, it was really difficult to watch and I think they could've done it a bit differently and still delivered the same message. I do have to disagree with Kate tho, I didn't think they portrayed it like Hannah took her life out of revenge but that's just my opinion. It's unfortunate that those particular scenes are what really stand out for me and again, they were so intense and so long that I, like Kate, had to look away or fast forward through them. I read the book years ago when I was in high school and it was really impactful for me anyways Having dealt with similar issues myself.
it also implies that depression is caused by concrete events, sometimes depression develops purely for very few reasons at all, all depression is valid
What killed me was when she said something along the lines of "some of you cared, none of you cared enough."
People not caring is not a reason to blame them. The people who directly hurt you, sure, but not the people who literally had little to no idea about your life
Yeah, this makes Hannah's personality really "dramatic".
Akira Shiori not defending the show but if someone tried to stay away from her than that would validate hannas statement
As someone who’s been suicidal soooo many times I’m so low I WANT people not to care. Hannah’s self importance made her suicide seem unrealistic to me.
@@mandlin4602 As someone who is close and loves someone who almost succeeded in committing suicide I agree. It was a complete secret. If that person hadn't lived and told me I don't think anyone would ever know what really happened and why. I don't like such insensitive portrayal of such issues. I really think people need to be more sensitive about such issues instead of using them for their gain. It seems more like they were trying to outdo the Game of Thrones by being more dramatic. I feel it's a new trend to show mental health issues and make everything as gruesome as you can instead of doing the right thing.
Yeah, people are indifferent and that is what we learn when we become adults.
If anyone is (planning on) watching it, here is a list of triggering scenes (with time stamps):
Episode 3:
42:43 - 42:45 (sexual harassment)
50:51 - 50:45 (vomiting)
53:11 - 54:07 (drowning)
Episode 4:
07:37 - 8:21 (stalking)
35:12 - 35:16 (physical abuse)
40:16 - 40:27 (stalking)
Episode 5:
Apparently there is some graphic shot of scars, but I really can’t remember where that was, I will try looking for it, but haven’t found it as of yet.
Episode 6:
40:48 - 41:05 (groping)
Episode 9:
31:20 - 32:40
38:50 - 42:35 (this is when the sexual assault actually happens)
46:40 - 47:02
50:20 - 51:20 (this is when the sexual assault actually happens)
Episode 10:
00:40 - 01:10 (car crash)
40:00 - 40:58 (car crash, blood, death, physical injuries)
41:18 - 41:29 (blood, death, physical injuries)
Episode 11:
29:14 - 29:18 (self harm wounds are shown)
31:48 - 31:51 (self harm wounds are shown)
Episode 12:
42:15 - 43:30 (sexual assault)
45:45 - 47:30 (sexual assault)
From 42:15 - 47:30 there is a really intense fight (it switches between flashbacks to the assault and the fight between Clay and Bryce)
51:00 - 52:25 (very intense physical abuse)
Episode 13:
32:25 (The description of her suicide starts, you don’t see it yet, but it’s still triggering and very explicit)
35:45 - 38:53 (suicide)
Take care of yourself! ♥︎
Thank you SO much for sharing this!!! There were too many for me to keep track of!!! xoxo
Neverland Citizen
I'm really glad it added vomiting as a triggering scene and they didn't forget people with emetophobia
Neverland Citizen I think the scars are in the scene when Clay is talking to the one girl (she works at Monet's, I can't recall her name). He grabs her wrist and exposes her self harm scars when she says she's ok.
Neverland Citizen yikes! thought about watching it out of curiosity but I will definitely not now. I read the book but thought it was really messed up.. and not in a great way. it portrays suicide in such an odd way.. idk. but thanks for the head's up.
In the beginning of each episode it puts a warning. I didn't agree with the suicide part just because I did feel like she did it for revenge.
I watched this show at a very dark moment in my life. My symptoms worsened exponentially afterwards. I'm in a better place now but looking back, this show was extremely harmful.
You are stupid. Not every show is for everyone. I watch saw and human centipide few times a month and it amazes me. People are different for fuxk sake
@@prisonisinourminds8070 -That wasn't necessary.
I mean there is CLEARLY a disclaimer or a warning at the beginning and at the end of every episode they put word to tell people that if you need help contact someone or go on they page.
It says don’t watch the show is you have these problems or if you really want to watch, watch it with a friend or a parent. I don’t get why really
Glad you are doing better! You got this, keep fighting!
Also: someone’s suicide is never ever your fault! Period! And that was my biggest issue.
@@haileysmall2 I respect and understand what you're saying - Nobody just wakes up and commits suicide for no reason. I agree with you there. I think what Taylor is saying is where does the responsibility begin/end? A cancer diagnosis, bad grades, end of a relationship, grief, financial difficulties - people commit suicide for a range of causes. But a lot of people face those same difficulties without resorting to suicide - some people seek therapy, others push through it, forgive, help others in the same situation or just try and try again. The real source of suicide is an extremely maladaptive response to life's challenges. People/challenges may be a trigger but they're not the underlying reason.
Zen Halimana Can you elaborate on the underlying reason? Don’t you think there may be a suffering so great that it warrants a suicide? What if suicide is just a defense mechanism to avoid very real and endless pain?
@@domo201 I agree with you - suicide (excluding euthanasia) is what people think about when: 1. They feel like they are facing an abnormally large challenge 2. They feel like there is nothing they can do about it. By no means am I saying that their pain or suffering is not real or warranted. Excluding medical euthanasia, rarely does one commit suicide when they are thinking normally and getting all of their emotional needs met. When someone is suicidal their brain is under extreme emotional arousal, their neurochemicals are low, they have fatigue and very poor sleep and can barely think straight. So you can't really trust that the decisions that a person makes then are going to be the best, just desperate ones.
Regarding desperate situations there are always exceptions and options, a suicidal person just won't be able to see them because of the black-and-white or all-or-nothing thinking caused by depression and excessive emotional arousal. Look at the story of Viktor Frankl in the World War 2 concentration camps - who chose to use his suffering to help others. Or people with terminal cancer who choose to spend their last months deeply connecting with family and choosing to be an example of strength and dignity to their loved ones. The challenges we face can be overcome, there is something that can be done, no matter how small and insignificant it may seem. And if we can find a higher meaning and purpose in the pain then we can find the strength to keep going, and maybe even transform it into something that helps others.
Can you understand that it is artists vision? “Perfect” are only hospital commercials
If the reason is any kind of abuse then the abuser is to blame.
The idea that you can blame suicide entirely on other people seemed very toxic to me. I know that things can snowball and that the actions of others don't always help, but I also felt like Hannah didn't do enough herself to reach out. Hannah's depiction of depression and suicide was entirely unrealistic to me.
a rape alone would be enough i believe. mr porter knew what she was talking about and didnt chase after her to help, he could have done more. i dissagee
Its maddening to someone who has been manipulated and emotionally abused by threats of suicide.
yesyesues
She was raped! It was not only all the bs sh*t but to top it she was raped...everything escalated fast and at the end she was left with all her pieces. She did not blame every body, she demostrate how people contributed to HER desition.
ι тнιик тнαт ωαѕ σи σf нєя ¢нαяα¢тєя fℓαωѕ. ι тнιик ѕнє вℓαмє∂ нєя ∂єρяєѕѕισи σи σтнєяѕ. ι ∂σи'т киσω ιf ѕнє ωαѕ ιи ∂єиιαℓ σя нα∂ иσ ¢ℓυє ѕнє ωαѕ ∂σιиg ιт.
My one concern with changing the show to offer mental health services in the show is that the whole point of it is that she committed suicide at the end. So if we see Hannah reaching out to a crisis text line, or going to therapy or maybe trying medication, is that it's going to give the impression that it doesn't work so why bother.
I feel like now we can have a conversation about "Hannah should have gone to a therapist or reached out to her parents because it'll help" and potentially suicidal people might listen in hope that things will turn out different for them if they try things Hannah didn't. If we're asking them to try things that Hannah tried and that failed her, they're much less likely to try in the first place because why bother?
I did like that it autoplayed a little documentary about not killing yourself right after the last episode. I feel like that was at least an attempt by Netflix to deal with the issues, but I'd have liked it if they had a crisis number at least on the content warning screens they had before a few episodes.
I think Kati meant that they should have had Hannah reach out for more resources AND she doesn't kill herself.
Timidor yes! That would've been a big improvement.
Timidor I agree with this. You can't do this show without having Hanna kill herself so by having her use good resources it might just lead to the impression that those resources doesn't work.
However there could have been more use of good resources from the other students. Like when Jessica talks to her dad, more things like that. Maybe Alex could have reached out to someone too. And Justin. There are a lot of other characters in pain that are left really uncertain at the end of the show :/ that would have been a good opportunity to show ways to not end up as Hanna.
(some spoilers follow, just in case anyone hasn't seen the show but still wants to)
Yeah, that would have been a better way to handle it. Maybe even do a bit of a compare/contrast with showing Clay (who's established as having some mental health issues and the occasional suicidal impulse in the show already) reaching out and getting help while Alex winds up trying to white knuckle it and still winds up shooting himself. Show that there is help out there that actually can work.
Timidor Selena Gomez said she wants to get people talking about mental illness and suicide. That's what this show did! Because it was controversial it got people talking. So in the end it got people talking about bullying and suicide. It also taught us to think about how our actions effect other people.
The top 3 things that frustrate me about 13 Reasons Why:
- In having Hannah say "you are the 13 reasons why I killed myself", suicide is depicted as a revenge tactic; as a deliberate action to make others feel bad when suicide is solely the choice of the individual. The 13 people on the tapes should be held accountable for what they have respectively done, but they should not be blamed for her death.
- Although I understand that Hannah wants the people who wronged her to feel how she felt, her decision regarding the tapes creates further conflict and emotional distress among the 13 individuals which snowballs into aggression and animosity. Particularly when you take Clay, for example, somebody who truly cared for and loved Hannah as a person, someone who did nothing wrong or mean, or intentionally hurtful towards her, he is put in a vulnerable position. Hannah asks the 13 listeners to devote substantial time to exploring her apparent reasons, even though 12 of them don't actually concern them. If she wanted to have each person understand how their actions truly affected her, she could have composed individual tapes or letters to the relevant people. Instead, her choices appear narcissistic and inflammatory.
- As Katie mentioned, mental health and the resources available to people are not adequately represented. The only therapist in the show is the guidance counsellor and he is depicted as unhelpful and inept, which sends the message to young people that all mental health professionals are like this and that there is no benefit in attending therapy.
I agree with some of your points here but I have to say there was times that I attempted suicide ONLY because of how others made me feel and what was done to me. And then there was times that I just thought people would be better off without me and felt I was a burden. Not everyone commits suicide because of themselves as if it's their own decision and not all commit suicide because of the negative effects people had on them. I'm a person who has attempted because of others and my own personal struggles. And yes other people CAN be the blame for someone killing themselves. Society just doesn't like to point that out because nobody wants to face that they've been the reason for someone choosing to end their own life. Even after death those that commit suicide are still blamed and made to seem as if it's their own fault.
@@nikolinajurgec4966 It IS their own fault. If a person decides to kill themselves that is their choice. They decided to cross that line. There are people who have been in situations like this and it is possible. I'm not saying it's easy. It couldn't be the hardest thing you can do.
There is this song lyric that sums up what I'm saying,
"They say life's to short but they're wrong. Sometimes the only way to go is to just go on"
You should never blame yourself for a person that you cared for suicide. The only people I would consider to be held accountable were the counselor who didn't do his job and the rspist who should be put on every life sentce there is filled with the worst people of all time. The others aren't responsible. They did do wrong but they are not murders.
@@nikolinajurgec4966 I hope you are okay now ?
@@allyxx2128 I am 100 times better! Made lots of progress since those days. Thank you for asking :)
yeah same I only started wanting to commit suicide after getting assaulted and raped so many times, and that is their faults because they did it to my vessel, I can’t escape my body ever, my brain is trapped in this thing that is so personal and is in connection with your deepest self that you have to live with constantly, I can’t even escape it while sleeping. I have no control over my body, those men used it whenever they wanted even when I begged to be let go every time, it has been so maliciously violated I still just wanna leave this earth. I’ve gotten soooooo much therapy and help in general but if I ever do still commit someday that’s an instance that is completely on those other people, I’m usually very open minded and am willing to listen and sway my opinion but I don’t care one tiny little bit what anyone says, god himself could appear before me and tell me suicide was my own choice, and I’d giggle so fuckin hard, because if I ever killed myself it would be their faults 1,000,000%. Always ask consent and listen the first time the person says no- cuz apparently that’s not common sense to everyone and you are ruining a life and future when you rape someone, it’s not a regular action that fades with time it’s always there happening over and over to that person, I don’t know why it’s not common sense to people but it’s not so here’s this comment
My parents started watching 13 reasons before I first attempted suicide, and I feel like that show greatly effected their thoughts on suicide. They believed it to be a storm of far fetched situations, and a way of getting revenge on those who hurt me. I didn’t realize til later ,when I started watching the show, that that show probably made them think that way. Also I’m better now, like 5 months clean and I’m seeing a therapist who helps everyone in my family understand my mental illness.
Cameryn Bryant proud of you
Where is the pupper
glad to know you are doing better.. it's hard getting out of a dark place and then staying out of there. I am proud of you.. stay strong
I am so, so proud of you for getting through the other side. Please focus on yourself and what's important to you. Your wellbeing comes first and foremost.
Thats so wrong and so sad :( Im sorry for what you had to go through
Possibly my biggest issue with the series is the fact that each 'triggering' scene was held onto for an over dramatic amount of time, in a way it felt as if it was mocking whatever situation was occurring.
Something I really hated was how no one helped Skye. Clay saw that she was cutting, but did nothing. Instead of getting a struggling person professional help, he just tried to be a good friend. If someone is self harming, you need to tell someone. There is only so much you can do by yourself.
pretty sure he also mocked her for it at some point if I remember correctly
I also didn’t like how she said to Clay that suicide is for the weak and that cutting is for stronger people or something along those lines.
Read the book
I agree! I think cases like these are were they could have put the help that is available to tie in with one of the points Kati mentions... doesn't have to be directly to Hannah but the other characters who are still alive and maybe even show how that help really works..
watch the second season or read the book:)
This show made me so angry. They ignored safe suicide reporting/portrayal guidelines, never mentioned mental health at all (aside from, she killed herself) and Hannah Baker was not a good person. She left 13 tapes but didn't bother leaving a note for her parents? She never actually talked to anyone, or explained anything, she just got mad, pushed people away and then blamed those people because they left. Like Clay's tape where she got mad at him for leaving when she told him to leave, several times. That and as much as I know the little things add up, been there before, but she put a kid who said she had a nice ass on the same level as a rapist, and blamed her friend that got raped because her FRIEND getting raped was one of the reasons she killed herself.
I wish she'd talked to someone. Not just the dude at the end. I wish she'd tried to even interact with people, all she does is push them away and then blame them for not being there. I know depression makes you push people away, but you can't blame the people for not being there when you pushed them away. It's a hard pill to swallow, and something I had to learn for myself, but it's true.
Goddamnit this show made me mad.
wat... what? but this is how real people act, you know. i loved show for it. it is brutally real.
LOL this show is definetly not how real people act. Idk what world you're living in
@@AA-cf4es this is very unusual behaviour for a teenage girl and doesn't accurately portray mental illness at all
Anastasia A I am annoyed by kati morton talking about the characters like they're real people. Like "Why didn't she reach out for help?" Uuuh because that's what the show was about... And I agree that it is reality.. SMH, uh yeah not EVERYTHING was realistic, but a lot of the behaviors of the characters were. And a lot of it was very negative. It doesn't make sense to me to give a bad review for a show because the characters made bad choices. That's ridiculous. I agree with some of the stuff she was saying about overdoing the traumatic scenes. but saying the characters should have used resources is laughable. It is a show, not a PSA. The story from what I understand, is based off of a book. You can't just change stories around to make them have a more positive outcome.. Can you imagine a world where there is never a movie or show with a sad ending?
Yea I get you but i feel like hannah was not meant to be a character to be the "hero". Like she has very human flaws
i feel like so many of her reactions are because of her mental health like you can't really be angry at someone who doesn't know how to deal with their emotions healthily...i have bpd and i get suicidal over the smallest things and don't trust people when they're trying to help me or nice to me because it feels like they're lying. :/ (i know mental health doesn't excuse bad behavior--just explains it. i also agree with kati, and wished the show would have brought up actual mental health)
reed mattek My thoughts exactly! I have BPD and I 100% can relate to Hannah. I legit think she had bpd. Anyway that's not the point...The point is the show is extremely real and intense which is something very rare nowadays, compared to other shows. In fact it made me feel a little stronger, making me realize that i am actually glad to choose to live and not end my life. Overall, it was on point i think.
reed mattek yes- I was thinking about this too, thanks for bringing this up
reed mattek agreed but they don't point that out in the show, she just comes off as dramatic, they never mention depression or anything like that sadly
reed mattek That may be true but they should have tackled and explained that directly. Also it could be portrayed in a way that helped you to understand her perspective more.
I agree with this, to her it probably seemed justified. HOWEVER the thing that upsets me about the show itself is that it seemed to be reinforcing that her point of view is correct by Clay blaming everyone, even those whose offenses were fairly slight in reality. It is never fair to place the blame on someone else like that and I really hated that they didn't address that.
2:39 "because i love you" i know this might seem stupid but really thank you for that..
I refused to watch this show and this shows me that was the best decision for me. Literally would have triggered 90% of things from my past.
I thought the exact same thing
13 reasons why felt so wrong to me in so may ways. And i think a lot of it can be explained by the fact that it's based on a ya novel written by a middle aged guy. Hannah didn't feel like real person to me. The story felt so far fetched and off-putting. As someone who has been on the brink of suicide many times before, I tried to understand Hannah and the way she acted. But my attempts to relate to her left me feeling confused. I understand that everyone is different, but the way she thought about suicide and the things that brought her to do it felt so wrong. I came to this show looking to see a character who could portray the struggles that many people go through and help others understand why these people choose to end their lives. I did not get that. There was no mention of depression. There was no mention of a fear of a hopeless future, or of feeling like a burden to the world, or of any of the difficult and distorted views a seriously mentally ill person might think. It felt like all the did was dramatize it all and as you said, frame it as revenge. As some petty way to get back at others. And I don't think that's what most suicidal people see it as. It's an end to your suffering, not a way to make others suffer. I also found it EXTREMELY triggering, and I hate using that word so it really means a lot. That last episode was brutal and to someone dealing with suicidal ideation already, it really shook me, despite being fully aware that it was going to be a rough ending. All in all it felt like a total misrepresentation of suicide and its victims. I am pissed that they made a second season, it really does feel like they are just doing this for shock value
Soren have you read the book? It is quite different than this trash show.
@@robocoastie that's all you say Jesus you try to make a fucking show. How about tell that too the damn director.
Thanks for your comment.
I hate these shows and how misleading is the way they take Social issues. So irrespectful!.
I heard that the book is much different from the show
AND now they made a third season. I don't really have much idea of what it is, but as the first season was, I don't think this one will be any better. It's so annoying that you can so clearly see that somebody had a good idea with a good intention, but it just got transformed into this trash show.
As a survivor of sexual assault I agree that it was extremely triggering. They showed way too much of it and really can send survivors back to the time of their own assault. It affected me for about two weeks after I finished the show.
I am so sorry it's still affecting you.. I hated that they did that. :(
andi valdez Yikes. I'm so sorry you had to go through what you did, then get triggered by the show. I hope you're in a much better, healthier, happier state now.
andi valdez I am so sorry that that happened to you, that is absolutely horrible. I would make sure to read the disclaimers in the beginning so you don't have to put yourself through that triggering situation again.
I agree with this. It did the same to me and the fact that they kinda glamorized it for the show really pissed me off and I almost stopped watching after that, but I felt obligated to finish the series. I'm sorry you went through that and I hope you're in a better place
Someone once told me I’m a horrible person for being triggered by the graphic R scenes when I haven’t been there myself. Has no one heard of extreme empathy and vivid imagination? I’ve been assaulted sexually, but apparently that’s not the same as R. I can’t even type the word out. It makes me sick. Because my imagination and empathy is so strong and vivid and detailed, I can put myself in other peoples shoes easily visually, and I can make myself feel sick and angry and actually scared and, well, triggered. And people think that the things I think of when I hear and see the R things, doesn’t define “triggered” but I didn’t know there was a criteria of “trigger”, and my bad mental health in general worsens when I get exposed to that subject, even tho I haven’t been R’d in such a graphic way as the scene shows. I’ve been assaulted, but not that heavy, and it affected me. But apparently I’m a horrible person and saying I’m “triggered” just because my experience didn’t mimic that particular scene in this show...
I absolutely HATED that it went for that long.
I kind of hate the show. I also read the book and hate it too haha. I was actually thinking about it the other day and all the reasons it's not a good show, but the main were: 1. It lives out every suicidal person's fantasy of "sticking it" to the people who wronged us, 2. It depicts the counselor as part of the problem instead of the solution, 3. Hannah basically tells Clay that if he had only loved her and shown her that love, she maybe wouldn't have done it, AND 4. The main cause for suicide, depression, is never mentioned. Does Hannah even have depression? We don't know!
Bridget B yes! oh man. all of those.... also, it seems to be directed towards people who haven't been suicidal or struggled with mental illness with (bizarrely) little regard for how damaging it can be for people who are actually there or have been there. I don't think they even actually succeed in encouraging non/suicidal people to empathize with mental illness or understand better. it's a mess. But yeah the scariest part for me is how it supports the idea that suicide accomplishes change. :-(
I have to disagree with both of you. Your reasons for disliking it have to do with your own personal lives and the way you've dealt and experiences your depression/suicidal thoughts etc. and your feeling are valid, however throwing a blanket statement as to 'why this show is so horrible' isn't right. Bc it's not every suicidal persons fantasy to 'stick it to people' for some people it's actually the opposite. I disagree with your other points as well but that's just one example. If you are sharing your views on a subject, pls try starting with 'my opinion is' or 'from my past experience, I feel that...' instead of throwing generalized (incorrect) statements over an entire subject :)
Bridget B I really hate it. The casting was awful (I laughed when I found out that 80s dude was actually meant to be a student) the acting was weak, the script was awful too, old slang and outdated teen speak coupled with awkward repetitive dialogue . Coincidences were everywhere. They made suicidal people look like they can list every reason for their suicide, while I just remember a giant dark hole of no hope and coldness. Somehow she's attempting suicide yet has the energy and the bother to make a freaking map coupled with 12 hours of scripted tape, even though so many things could go wrong with that idea. She of course mentally tortured the friends who didn't do anything and committed suicide for revenge. And the show made her look like she was in the right. She was never told off for this, nor did she ever see proper consequences for her narcissistic sociopathic manipulative behaviour as a person anyway.
The music was alright but there was no theming nor meaning in any of the music they chose. They were like "oh hey that song sounds nice let's stick it in"
The cinematography was meh, and overrated as I see so many saying it was amazing. From an art standpoint some of the shots looked ok, but others looked like they came out of a low budget student film. When people say "amazing cinematography" I think Legion or Game of Thrones not that hot mess.
And I can see the suicidal and rape scene is subjective, but I know that it was lazy and there were more artistic and creative ways to do it other than shock horror. I believe they did it more to get media attention instead of truly showing the brutality.
(But this is my personal opinion, if you like it it's great you can enjoy things I can't so, go ahead!)
Also, the suicide and the tapes idea made the suicidal victim look like a ghost from a Hollywood horror movie rather than a mentally ill person who was going through serious issues be needed desperate help (and who also had shitty behaviour that I needed to see her realise and apologise for)
A show like this is horrible! The fact that it's on the air and people are watching it is a negative reflection on the creators and the watchers. This is proof of how society has fallen. One word comes to mind: exploitation. I don't need to qualify my post with "my opinion is" or any other cliche statement. This is wrong and it should be taken off the air. I have no desire to watch this debacle; it shows a complete lack of empathy. Mental illness exploitation for profit (period).
I remember watching this show and just thinking over and over again: “Somebody, please, just talk to an adult”.
And I feel that this may be the valuable lesson the show could teach: communicate, don’t isolate yourself, then this may have been prevented.
But the show did such an awful job at getting this message across. Hannah was quite unlikable, the revenge-type portrayal of her suicide was so uncomfortable, and the graphic scenes overshadowed the storytelling due to their excessive shock-value. This is why I dislike this show. It failed miserably in getting the right points across and subsequently made it a very problematic narrative.
The only thing I did like was the portrayal of Hannah’s parents, I really felt for them and it showed the impact suicide can have very well.
As if teen-agers like reaching out to adults lol
@@anascarlet that's the point they're making the show could've showed teenagers how beneficial reaching out can be and what resources they have available so they could at least attempt to touch those resources. All the show affirmed was my depressive thoughts as a teenager :adults dont listen no one cares until you're dead ect. And I had to take a step back it was overwhelming sad and harmful when I watched it.
@@blahblah-we6dw but still, this was never supposed to be a show with a happy ending. You went into it knowing that... I agree that
they should have done a better job with trigger warnings, but asking for an entirely different show is a bit much... I also think the show wasn't even intended for depressed people, but for their loved ones, which is what some people out there have also said. And if loved ones really were the intended audience, it would make even less sense to include Hannah successfully seeking help because that would just reinforce the idea that seeking help is easy and that it's what you *should* do and that if you don't, you're selfish and suicide is your fault. :/
@@BloodInTheStrawberries I completely agree. My comment was made light-heartedly... But also, some teenagers don't want to ask for parents' help because they don't trust their parent's judgement anymore and want to be independent.
@@BloodInTheStrawberries I was thinking more along the lines of just witnessing your parents being wrong sometime and stopping trusting their judgement as you did as a kid, when you might have thought your parents were perfect hahah
I would LOVE to see your reaction to the show Crazy Ex Girlfriend (main character is diagnosed with BPD)
Yesss that show is amazing
yess thats my fave show :))
YES
YES PLEASE
i am currently watching it all - and i'm DYING for her to deconstruct everyone! soooooo many illnesses in it! i haven't gotten to where rebecca is diagnosed yet, but i'm guessing histrionic or borderline? paula and josh are clearly co-dependent and maybe something deeper with paula... but i can't put my finger on it... valencia is narcissistic, greg is an alcoholic and also co-dependent... later nathaniel is sociopathic or narcissistic and co-dependent with his dad... i don't know. i may be way off, with all these because i'm listening to katie talk about 13 reasons why and starting to get confused as i try to remember all the characters, lol - but i'd love to see her talk about Crazy ex-girlfriend!
I hated that show, honestly. I am dealing with anxiety and depression, and the way it was overdramatized for shock value was just disguisting. "Perks of being a wallflower" and "Speak" dealt with it so, SO much better.
Agreed!! i loved Perks of Being a Wallflower!! It was done so much better! xoxo
Charlie Fox Perks is amazing. Both the movie and the book are so relatable and they portray mental health issues in a very realistic light
Reading Perks was what made me realize I had depression and anxiety and reach out for help. It still is my favourite book.
Charlie Fox it wasn't done that way for shock value. Please tell me, have you watched the documentary that goes along with the series?
Lauren Goldie I haven't and I don't have to. they should have done a better job in the first place if they wanted to portray mental health issues.
I understand that it's protocol for the school counselor to ask for more information so it can be reported, but not everyone will feel comfortable with doing that straight away.
I wanted to talk to the school counselor when I was sexually assaulted just to talk and get my emotions in order and she asked for information. I didn't know she would report it and I had an anxiety attack in her office. She told my parents when I didn't want her to and my life has been different ever since. I still am constantly blaming myself for everything that happened and I can't get over it.
I just feel reporting something like that would require a person to warm up to doing it rather than doing it straight away.
Very very true. With anything you have to be in a safe and stable place to get help because sometimes you're in a dangerous situation where if you take one wrong step, your entire world comes crashing down
I know your counselor thought they had your best interest in mind but that's how trust is lost between the patient/student and adults. I was made aware by any counselors that they HAVE to report if you're about to hurt yourself or someone else or if you've committed a crime or intend to but no matter what age you are every other discussion should remain confidential between patient and doctor/counsellor whichever as is required by law.
I don't think a counselor would actually know how to handle something like this, people don't immediately process things so easily, I remember when my mum died I called my bestfriend and she said stop joking, I yelled at her that why would I joke, but in retrospect I was in denial longer than her, thing is Hannah tried to reach out but just to the wrong person, she couldn't have known that considering her mental space and that councelor must have been trying to think what he should do, maybe if had more time think clearly or more training about something like this ,it could have gone better
I swear I really need some sort of counsellor but....I know if I talked she would immediately go to my parents and I really dont have anyone I can talk to.
Maryam Kidwai try to text 741741 ( CONNECT )
I feel like hannah's "smaller" first reasons being blown out of proportion was very intentional on the part of the creators. Hear me out. It wasn't to say that the same guilt rests on someone betraying or ditching their friend or taking out the compliments as it weighs on a double rapist. But these reasons were at the beginning because things like stable friendships and compliments in her drawer were things that got hannah through the day-when you feel hopeless, you depend on the most insignificant things for small joys-and they were things she depended on, cared about. One by one, these things were ripped from beneath her until her friends were gone, everyone's respect for her was gone and her own was going. And so when the traumatic events happened such as rape and the car crash, she had nothing to fall back on, no support, only clay who she couldn't properly separate from her assaulters in her mind. This made her feel so hopeless and despairing more than it normally would because she literally had nothing holding her back. She was suffering and she still had to go to school to no one she cared about and she felt like a joke, like nothing. I think this could very easily lead someone to kill themself. And i think it's important she mentioned zach and alex because they weren't directly responsible but she was trying to explain and justify why when the bad things happened she had no one she could go to, no one who thought she was worth caring for.
The creators have also said they included the triggering scenes such as rape so people know how rape works, what really happens, and can understand the emotional exhaustion and self loathing it can cause. It is also to dispel the myth that rapists are hated and easy to spot-bryce was polite to hannah and wouldn't be suspected until he made the decision to rape her and jessica. It's also made to last to reflect real life-when these things are happening there aren't a few kisses and then it stops. It carries on and on for what feels like forever and this prohibits the audience being able to close their eyes to it and ignore it. It shows the reality of rape and sexual assault for so many people.
They also involved the suicide scene to deromanticise suicide (i know this a controversial point because, problematically, hannah's suicide is weaponised against her peers and it plays out how she wanted it to, making people who commit suicide look powerful in death and honourable) but anyway, they try to de romanticise suicide by not presenting it as a small, easy solution done in peoples' back rooms, from person to corpse in a second. It's made to be painful and dehumanising and slow and pointless to show that committing suicide will always cause loss, and never gain. Please read this.
Nah they just wanted money.
13 Reasons Why is such a manipulative show. It normalised suicide.
No it did not. If that what you saw, you may need a therapist.
@@tazmom0 choke
@@buttuflibana4962 eat shit
@@tazmom0A study found out that in the month of the show's release there was a significant increase in suicide among male teens there was also increase in female teen but it was not significant enough.
The show kinda showed that suicide is a way.
@@yashkatare8047 There are always peaks and valleys in suicide rates, before and after 13RW. There are plenty of therapists who think the show was wonderful and helped open the door to parent/child discussions about tough topics. It did for me and my son. I recommend it to parents all the time and will continue to do so.
I would be really curious what you'd think about BoJack Horseman :)
It’s a show about depressed furries. Bo Jack has clinical high functioning depression among other issues. I haven’t seen many episodes but it’s pretty deep for a cartoon. 2nd favorite adult cartoon because I prefer comedies that make you think (South Park is number 1 because I can think whilst I laugh).
I would really like her to do a video about it too.
Personally, I find myself very easily relating to the show and the characters' issues, even if it is just a cartoon. They really show a lot of diferent mental issues that are not necesarily triggered by rape or assault, or things like that. Sometimes you just find this feeling of hate torwards yourself, drowning yourself, and you don't understand why.
It is a very powerful message -AND in this final season, they finally show the protagonist get real help.
Hahaha yes please
I wish she was more open with Clay
Totally!!! He was always there!
Definitely! Although they could have at least shown her trying to open up and reach out for help and end up not going through with it (since the premise does rely on her suicide). It can be hard to reach out sometimes and having that in the show would have fixed a lot with the show and been really worth exploring.
the Golden Spider-Duck how would that make sense if she didn't go through with it....the whole series is her being already dead and the only reason she's actually in the series is through flashbacks
"(since the premise does rely on her suicide)"
She could have tried to reach out and chickened out because opening up is hard.
the Golden Spider-Duck oh, sorry I misunderstood...but she did try to reach out to mr. Porter but unfortunately she wasn't strong enough to say the word 'suicidal' or 'raped' which were the words that would've gotten his attention, and he wasn't equipped to pick up on the seriousness of the issue from her subtle way of explaining it.
I watched the whole thing and have to admit that it was very triggering. It was like a tasty snack for the depression voice and it just kept feeding it. At the end I had to call my friend to sit with me through the night because I was in such a bad head space
I think they held onto the graphic scenes for longer than needed to get the point across for exactly that reason: to make it uncomfortable, to make you wish they had turned away the camera. In the instances of rape in particular this is important because we see Hannah's face, this isn't comfortable, its gratuitous in its violence but not in the sex appeal (certain other shows *cough* game of thrones *cough* manage to make rape look sexy at times). It felt really impactful to me.
With the suicide scene I have really mixed feelings about it.. on the one hand showing it like that is almost like giving instructions, it inspires copy cats and that is hugely harmful and problematic. On the other hand, I'm glad they moved away from how the book did it (in the book it is implied that she took pills). If she had taken pills or something like that this scene could have turned out a lot like Violet's suicide scene in American Horror Story in which the beautiful blonde collapses back on the bed, outstretched hand slowly unfurling from around the pill bottle, her boyfriend finds her and screams and sobs and kisses her, its all so romantic. That scene really really bothers me for how it could make easily influenced people respond.
The scene in 13RW however is graphic and violent and its difficult for her and causes her pain and its her parents who find her. I would still rather they hadn't shown it especially as mental health professionals warned them not to... but at least they didn't do what American Horror Story did.
I think that the show is amazing because it makes people think exactly what you are saying in this video. When dealing with depression or suicidal thoughts, messages like "just open up", "just seek help" or "just talk to someone" fall deaf ears - at least for me they do. Instead the show manages to make people realise for themselves, just how many options they have, because they too become fustrated with Hannah, her situation and actions.
I know you didn’t but I really loved this show. I found it very helpful with my struggles because I could relate, although everyone says “reach out” and “people want to help you” from my experience it’s very difficult to find help. At school consulars are only there to make schedules and help plain for collage. And therapists cost money. If you don’t have a good relationship with your parents, any close friends, or any money, It can be really difficult to find help on your own (and sometimes you need more than a phone call or a chat room full of strangers)
I can see where you're coming from although personally, I don't necessarily agree. I have struggled with mental health for so very many years and through those years I have seen countless amounts of councillors and therapists and stuff and actually, one of the best ones was one of my school councillors, who helped more than almost any paid mental health professional. Also especially because mental health is such a huge problem with youth and young adults there are almost always free services and things only really get pricey once you're over 25.
And this is coming from someone whose family didn't help and friends didn't really understand I had to navigate through so much of it all by myself.
Obviously, this is my own personal experience and opinion and everyone is different. But yeah, just wanted to add that point.
I wanted to watch '13 reasons why' to see how they portray mental illness and suicide, even though I suffer from it myself and it's my own responsibility for watching besides the warnings but I couldn't get through the whole series because the episodes would send me into a downward spiral into the blackness of my own mind and I think that's what a lot of people struggled with. It definitely brought on more of my own suicidal thoughts which is why I made the decision to stop watching it.
I feel like for a lot of people it did more harm than good.
Again, just my opinion.
Dede Danielle I can totally relate to you finding help on your own is hard!
Thats why these videos are a great resource. Kuddos to you for helping yourself!
I agree.
This is so true and it’s something we need to improve on. I know of counselors at schools who were wildly unequipped to handle actual mental health and violence issues, and I know of more than one case where someone went in to ask for help after assault and/or systematic humiliation by another student and they called in the other student and tried to make the person seeking help state their accusations to the perpetrator. Talk about terrible counseling, and no patient confidentiality!
I also struggled with a parent who made therapy inaccessible/hostile. She meant the best but felt very vulnerable herself, and felt that my going to therapy was a method for me to accuse her.
However, this doesn’t mean that there are no free, accessible resources! There are always ways to reach out. The hotlines are generally great, and there are many lovely groups online to get support from others. Professional help is always the best, but it’s important not to give up or close yourself off if that’s not an option at the moment.
Also, many employers are starting to offer mental health resources as a benefit (mine provides access to Talkspace) and if you have a good relationship with an adult who is able to extend that benefit to you, that’s a great resource.
While I totally understand your point of view, the show was written from the perspective of a teenage girl, not the perspective of outsiders looking in. As a teenage girl, I had no idea of the help available to me, nor did I feel comfortable seeking what I knew was available, nor did I really want to if I am honest. I also wasn't very logical and small things like what Zach did, blew out of proportion in my mind due to my mental illness issues. I had great parents, but I would never have ever reached out to them, we just didn't have that kind of relationship. For instance a meeting like the one she had with the school counsellor would have had me reacting the exact same way she did. Tbh the portrayal was scarily realistic of who I was at that age, how I viewed the world and how truely alone I made myself(even though I felt that it was everyone else who made me feel so alone). The scenes were dragged out and triggering but thats done for dramatic effect and also to show the harsh reality of what it really is like, its not pretty, it doesn't just end there, it is painful, it is scary and it goes on and on. I don't think the show was made to showcase how to deal with mental illness. I think it was made to showcase how disastrous high school can be on certain individual, how isolated some students are(whether its their "fault" or not) and how illogical the teenage brain is as well as how many warning signs there were.
This is the unpopular opinion that I agree with. This show wasn't meant to be a model of how to deal with mental health issues, it's meant to be a raw account of a suicidal person's story. And because it's trying to be realistic, the characters absolutely do not make the right decisions and don't always think logically. I don't like how critics of the show blame it for being a bad influence on kids in the same way that they might call Miley Cyrus a bad influence. Miley Cyrus exists as her own person and is not obligated to be a role model for anyone, just like how 13 Reasons Why exists as an art piece and isn't obligated to be anything more. The responsibility is on the viewer to realize that not everything they watch is going to be a good influence. Maybe it's hard for viewers to realize that because this approach to a show about mental illness is one that hasn't really been done before. Pretty much every other show about this subject has a happy ending.
I totally agree with you
Me too
Couldn't agree more
So true!
i liked the show for its plot line but i totally agree it didnt potray mental illness very well.
Jessica Young I don't think they even said the words "depression" or "mental illness" once
There's a meme saying "(insert name) welcome to your tape". It's almost glamorizing suicide
Ugh :(
DevinJGreen well done there's only like another 1000 memes that are offensive I see them all the time people joking about cutting but it's just people with a disgusting sense of humour but we can't stop them so we shouldn't focus on them
DevinJGreen Thats not the shows fault, people only made that into a meme because unfortunately a lot of people have very dark senses of humor and dont take suicide and death seriously.
DevinJGreen what's glamorise?
And the reason they made it to the meme was because some of the reasons why she put some of the people in the tape were just dumb or small things
i havent watched or read 13 reasons why, but from what i can tell, 13 reasons why makes a suicide victim out to be an absolute villian
I feel like 13 reasons why helped me. Watching the other seasons helped me to understand how distorted our view can be when we had depression and it made me question if things were as bad as I saw it around me. This happened when you’re depressed many times, everything is a lot more intense for us. Plus in the other seasons you can see the other characters who also had a lot of trouble getting better and it made me think that Hannah didn’t had that chance, wich made me think that suicide is not the best thing after all. It did helped me a lot when I was considering seriously to end my life. Also, the school in 13 RW had a counselor, Hannah did tried to reach out but he wasn’t properly trained.
That counselor I was mad about bc it’s like he was controlled by the school and couldn’t properly help.. I mean especially when she reached out about rape.. he said “maybe just over look it?” I mean come on.. seriously? And I can’t believe the comment in this section.. how the the ones bullying don’t have any consequences? They can’t drive people to misery? If you ahev to see them and hear them every day
No. It is the showrunners’ who’s views are so distorted and ridiculous. Not the average person who experiences depression.
Hannah's neurotic and anti-social behavior existed before she was abused but they didn't play a large factor until she started keeping secrets that ended up hurting herself and everyone else.
I get what you are saying about how maybe some of her reasons were blown out of proportion, but maybe to her, in her mind, they seemed very intense and real. To someone with maybe say BPD, like I have, things like what Zach did can be very negatively impactful. And very hurtful. So maybe it hurt her in that way. Maybe it shouldn't have been worth making a tape over, but it could have made her suicidal.
Emily Fox agree. We don't know how hard our actions can impact someone who's already struggling. Most of the stories couldn't ever be THE reason she kills herself but express a continuum of negativity that exacerbate her feelings of isolation.💛
Emily Fox Emily Fox yes exactly!! I have problems with regulating emotions too and I get suicidal over 'small things' so I don't think that's the problem with the show either! For me those are valid reasons to end up feeling as hopeless as hannah. And I don't think the fact it's triggering is a problem either (lots of things triggering in life, i have ptsd and even a smell can trigger me). Every episode has trigger warnings too. I think it's just so romanticised, and so badly acted. And the demographic its attracted has been pre-teen girls that talk about how hot the boys are and shit 😂 idk, it's just classic 'indie' overly produced crap really? Idk that's just my thoughts! And it spreads the idea that 'love' can save people idk! Sorry if you like it, I totally respect that
Emily Fox I agree with you! I'm a parent of teens in the UK & I haven't been this conflicted about a show for ages. There's a glossy aspect to it that makes me uncomfortable. I think there's a lot wrong but Kati's video didn't nail my problems with it. I know the guidance counsellor at the end probably meant well but I think he represents how difficult it can be to open up & actually access meaningful help. The system can be disappointing. That deserves examination. I really hope you are OK. Your comment made a lot of sense to me.
Emily Fox of course, but they don't say Hannah could be struggling with mental health. They make it seem like what Zach did was bad enough to make someone feel like crap.
I agree :)
Yes to everything you said! It also bothers me that it can give teenagers the idea that they can prevent their peers from committing suicide and thus are at fault when someone does this. It must be hard enough dealing with such a situation, without the burden of this guilt, thanks to a tv show, on top of it.
You made a really good point! I found it really triggering. Teens that are confronted with one of their peer's suicide do feel guilt. And this show just justifies this feeling...
I watched the series and I agree Hannah was hard to connect with, at first.
After the second episode, I began to connect as it started to feel as though the show was a documentary of my life. The more I watched, not only did I relate and connect to the character, I could feel my own past traumas flashing back full force. I watched the whole series in two sittings. It was a bad idea for me to watch at all, let alone in two days.
With your comment about suicidal revenge, I would say three of my attempts were as such. There is a hopelessness to each, but I wanted the people who had hurt me to see the pain they causes, to hurt them back.
As for the going off on people being nice to you, there could be a few reasons behind the outbursts. One, fear of abandonment. Everyone leaves, and don't connect with people you care about because it will only hurt more later. Look at her situation as if to have BPD. How would, or what would, a borderline react/do. I can see Hannah's side as I have done what she did. I was diagnosed early on with ODD and dysthymia. I now have BPD, MDD, GAD, and PTSD as some of the label I carry with me. More or less what I am saying, been there done that. My senior year of primary school was people not acting like children, being nice to each other, and I wasn't going to have it. Tortured for over a decade by people now, all of a sudden, being nice to me... I wanted to cause them pain. Only thing, I direct most of my anger inward.
Yes the show is triggering, and I think that was the intent. Not only to bring light to a subject, but show the damage it causes. I'm not mentally well in the best of times, but to me a show explaining my some of our actions as children mold the world, and the people, around us is good if done properly. What may seem as being 'normal' is actually extremely damaging.
Hannah asking for help... From my perspective... I didn't want people to help, I wanted people to leave me alone. I didn't reach out to others as it could be another thing I would be tortured for. Furthermore, fear of being locked up. Now, 20 years later, I have no issues with being locked up. Bring it on, and let me stay for a few years. I know I should be locked up, and to some extent permanently. The reality/perception of someone's inner beliefs guide their decisions. Yes, she should have gotten therapy. How about, people shouldn't treat others like crap just because. Stop being di**s to each other and most of us wouldn't need therapy.
Last ditch effort, go to an adult. She does go to the counselor (this would have been a person I would see as a therapist of sorts.) With the idea that everyone is out to get you, that would include a pessimistic view of the counselor, so come prepared to prove what you believe. She goes to ask for help, and in her mind help is validation and emotional support. She is looking not for revenge, or justice, she wanted help. When she doesn't get what she is hoping for, and get what she expected, out she goes. There has been so many times I tested people to see if they'd leave, wanted to hurt me, or just plain old thought I was a friend. I also think her situation would be similar to asking a police officer to help carry a book for a moment, to which the officer bombards with questions about where the book came from, and why it exists over just carrying the book. --Getting the help you believe you need in that moment, not help for something or talking about a subject that is at the time being avoided.--
The show seemed to evolve in to more of reality then a hopes and dream show. Yes, in the ideal world people would get the right help and the right place at the right time, or not need help in the first place. Hannah's path, actions, and feelings are all things I've experienced or can relate to. I would have done the same thing, and in some cases did do the same thing. From what I can possibly see as her side, I wouldn't expect someone who didn't experience her pain to understand. The show might have been trying to get people not like Hannah to understand Hannah's side and pain. Also, some illnesses are egosyntonic.
Loved your reply and can I just say, I felt completely the same x
Same here. The show was meant to realistically portray the complex of factors that contribute to someone in Hannah's position to become suicidal. I have been there, and i found the show to be spot on in its realism. Hannah's sensitive nature, the preoccupation of her parents, the misconceptions, the behaviour of the other students, the counsellor's victim blaming and overall mishandling of the situation, it all adds up and makes sense, and it reflects the way things are in many schools.
Hey hope your ok now! Stay strong
I've only watched episode one and even though I get some of what Katie says, I do side more with those who *can* relate because THEY HAVE BEEN THERE. Sometimes, a therapist or psychiatrist is not the best person to be giving advice if all they have are book smarts.
"dear evan hansen" brought up awareness to suicide and mental health, in some ways.
also, many people with deppression reported the show helped them in some ways after seeing it.
"13 reasons why" just shorunners mesntion they want to start a conversation just so they will be immuned from critisism.
I think they wanted people to get frustrated. Hannah didn't reach out and some kids don't always find the strenghth to reach out and some kids always try to find the negative in people (like she didn't really even give mr. porter a chance to help her). "we never know what's going on in someone else's life" so in a way they did succeed in passing the message because it did frustrate people like you Katie. Not all kids are going to txt a crisis hotline even if it's available and they saw someone on tv do it. I don't think the author of the book fully intended his story to be a PSA but just a story. thank you for review though. it's helped me round out my opinions too.
Oh Bean agree!
Oh Bean I know but they didn't say this is a bad thing, they made it look like Hannah was in the right, that's where the frustration came from. It therefore made mental health look incurable and the services look non- existent (which I know they're shitty but geez)
HappyMaskSalesman agreed. I found it hard to sympathise with Hannah because of that.
Thank you Gina Bean, thank you. Apparently some people don't understand that movies and shows tell a story, and that they're not supposed to be shining examples of how to be a good person. Can you imagine if all shows only showed characters making good choices? That would really suck.
I only watched to your reason 4 so far but I want to say that I understand why they let those graphic scenes go on for so long. I'm not sure if you watched the documentary that goes along with the series but they explain it there too. Even in the scripts like for the rape scene it said 'camera stays on Hannah's face for longer than is comfortable' bc that's the point, to make the audience uncomfortable. There are trigger warnings at the beginning so it's the viewers discretion to turn it off if they think they will be triggered. But it's to show that in real life it's not just a guy aggressively kissing and touching a girl and she's saying no and then fades to black.....it actually happens the whole thing actually happens and they wanted to make it as real as possible so that people can understand what victims of these things go through before, during, and after, they don't want to fade to black and just let the audience assume what happened. That's the whole point of the show is to show it as real as possible. They didn't want to make Hannah a perfect little angel who gets picked on all the time cause that's not very realistic. For most people dealing with bullying, depression & trauma, they do end up lashing out for no reason and being moody and withdrawn. That's real and it's important for the audience to understand that that's real. Bc if they painted Hannah as a perfect person that you could just feel sorry for the entire time then it wouldn't translate to real life if someone's friend starts being moody and lashing out and not asking for help etc. but maybe since people saw those traits in Hannah they might be able to understand that when someone acts like that there may be something horrible happening in their brain and that person can help even if their friend is pushing them away. Hope that makes sense.
Yes!
Lauren Goldie I agree with a lot of what you said
Lauren Goldie totally agree
I just watched season 2, it’s worse than season 1.
Michelle Melton agreed
I'm a female who has experienced rape and though Hannah's rape scene was so God damn uncomfortable to watch for me I have to say season 2 and what happens to Tyler made me almost physically sick. I covered my eyes and turned the volume down for that scene I really couldn't watch it. However I think it was important for them to at least introduce that topic that boys are also heavily sexually assaulted and the whole locker room boys mentally doesn't just affect women but the men as well. The fact that his took place in the school was even more terrifying to me.
I had no idea there was a sequel... What.
I did not finish season 2.. It doesn't make sense anymore!!!
Stop?
Just to play 'devils advocate' per say there's just a few things I want to say. As someone who has struggled with these issues for the better part of my life I feel that I have a unique standpoint on the way this show was made and the way it portrayed life of a mental ill person. In my opinion this show was one of the best depictions of what life is really like for someone with a major depressive disorder, I understand that you are a 'mental health professional', but you said it yourself you've never actually personally experienced it which makes me beg the question who really understands a mental illness better, someone who was provided with information and a diploma or someone who has lived it. As for the actual show itself, the so called unlikeable qualities that many found in Hannah just shows how/why people reacted the way they did to her actions and her death. The way I viewed the show I did not see her suicide as an attempt at revenge whatsoever, because what the hell would she gain from that in her death? I think she committed the act because she was in true and utterly terrible pain and who is anyone to invalidate how anyone else feels/reacts after certain events. For example you mentioned the arguments between Hannah's parents and how they quote "had nothing to do with her". Who are you to say they shouldn't have affected her? Before my parents separation my parents also had arguments about money and so on and so forth and although my parents arguments got a lot more intense and physical and I was A lot younger, I would never ever ever say to someone any along the lines of "oh, but it could be worse." As for the graphic scenes that I do understand and they perhaps could have been dealt with more sensitively but at the same time it's realistic, it happens and people should be aware of that. I also think that those kinds of scenes were not necessarily made for the victims but perhaps rather for the perpetrators, giving them more real reasons to re-evaluate their actions. I have alot more to say but I'm going to stop here because quite frankly I'm annoying myself haha, ok byyyeee.
I agree with you, I struggle with a lot of different issues but watching the show made me feel less alone, because I could relate to Hannah. (granted I have borderline personality disorder traits and not just depression, but there wasn't truly any discussion on what mental illness Hannah has) It made me really upset when people called her attention seeking and unlikeable, when i connected with her on a lot of levels.
We know we don't make sense. But we can't help it, we're hurt, we can't think correctly, yet won't stop thinking, and it's all a mess in our heads. I also don't like how people are saying that those aren't "valid" reasons to want to end your life. Mental illness doesn't care how your life is. It twists the world around you and makes you believe you are alone and hopeless, and that the pain will never go away.
Many people also forgot about what was happening in her old school. This school was supposed to be her chance to start over, but it didn't work out that way, which i think adds to another reason she thought she had no hope of being happy.
There is so much I want to say to you, but I think by saying that I'm siding with you, you know enough. If you ever wanna have a friendly discussion about the series, pm me :)
i totally agree with you, you hit spot on on soo many things that i can personally connect with too. and don't worry, you're not annoying, it's good for people to see the flip side of arguments from a personal perspective rather than a more factual and diploma-based perspective although both matter a great deal equally
Sophies Bubble w
You said everything I wanted to! My friend suggested I watch the show after I had attempted suicide, and was raped. It hit so close to home, and felt like someone out there really understood me, and the pain I was going through. My therapist hasn't watched the show, but was concerned that I watched it, and was afraid it had too many triggers for me.
I honestly hated this series so much. They coulda made it so good but no. I honestly didnt even watch season 2 bc I'm over it. Thank you for making this reaction video.
While I see the points you made about the triggering scenes, I think the reason they did so was to do exactly what you said. To bring awareness and show people the reality of these events, and I don't necessarily agree that they should have cut away from the scenes. Staying in the scenes long enough to make people who haven't gone through these traumas feel triggered is the entire point. I think It's done so that everyone can kind of experience a portion of the feelings actual trauma survivors feel, which in my opinion is really important and something that needs to be talked about more. And also, this series is based on a book, so some of the things you are unhappy with are out of the filmmaker's hands. They had to stay true to the book so they couldn't really cut out the reasons they may have thought were "blown out of proportion."
Brittany Bridges I think I agree. Of course everyone needs to gauge what's too triggering for themselves to watch, but I think the world needs to see the trauma caused by things like rape, see the light going out of someone's eyes... otherwise it's just glossed over as always, or it's just words. People need to get how devastating it is.
Amy McRae Yes thank you!
Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts on this too!! I can see your point as well. I think I just worry more about it being too much for people and leaving them feeling worse than they did or possibly remembering how it felt to them. xox
Kati Morton I agree with you there and worry about that too. And can I just say, as someone currently in college studying to one day do what you do, I really love your videos and how informative they are! They really are so helpful to so many 💕
I agree with you and those who are triggered shouldn't be watching it in the first place it's their choice to watch it or not
I agree with you so much but no one understood why I didn't like the show.
I feel like what a lot of people forget about 13rw is that this show is based on a YA novel, and a lot of the issues stem from the book, not the show. Not saying it's not netflix's team's fault for not correcting them, but no one blamed the book on any suicides or pointed out any issues with it when the book came out.
Was the book really that popular? I never even heard of it until the Netflix series. Reading is, simply put, not as popular as watching Netflix. A smaller audience means less negative consequences so less outcry.
@Sofia Aberdein The book wasn't written that long ago, so there wasn't really much of a difference between people's awareness, if there was a difference at all.
I would also like to point out, though, that the book made Hannah seem like a nicer person. Yes, she still overreacected and lashed out at people, but it seemed a bit more responable. With that whole thing about Zach, in the book it said that he was actually getting too close to her (it's described as him acting like he's trying to "feel her up" and invade her personal space, and getting mad when she tries to get him to stop). In the show, it acts like he wasn't trying to do any of that, it shows it as him putting his hand on her leg (not somewhere that would be considered dangerously close to her privates) and her screaming and pushing him away, while basically having a mental breakdown. Both the book and TV show are unrealistic and triggering, but I feel like the book is less so. I genuinly felt bad for Hannah while reading the book.
The book did not give you as much information about what happened as the series did. The series was good. If people can't handle it, they shouldn't watch.
I‘m just always saying the same thing: If you would be in Hannah‘s situation, would you just casually walk up to someone and tell them about how you feel after what had happened to her?
No you wouldn‘t. You would do ANYTHING to forget it, even push people away. Because that‘s what you do if you‘re broken and crashed inside.
I totally am thinking, 13RW was very close to reality and that actually showing the suicide was a good move. If they would‘ve just like.. made a scene where they told everyone she killed herself, the people who warched would be like: „hm, yeah well that‘s horrible“ but would they really feel it? Would they feel the pain? Especially if they were always in the place of the bully? I personally think not.
For me myself as a depressed woman, diagnosed with depression an mental illnesses, I can tell her suicide did trigger me. But I watched it anyway because I knew, if I wouldn‘t watch it, I would never really understand how much of an impact it has on the people around me.
I was in Hannah‘s place a while ago too and I know how it is to want everything to go away, I even pushed people away like she did. And it almost got me to kill myself. But I didn‘t.
And what most people don‘t understand is, first of all it‘s a TV Show with a topic which is actually really happening! But nobody really cares. And second of all if you haven‘t been in a state like this, in an emotional level like this, of course you‘d think it‘s „way too much“ „too graphic“ or „nothing to be shown on netflix“. How would you know how it feels to be in a situation like this?
That‘s what I find sad about this whole thing. People still think, that what the series showed was way too much or way too unrealistic, when in reality things like this happen ALL THE TIME.
For me, yes, Hannah could‘ve walk up to someone and talk about it but on the other hand, it‘s really hard to do so. Because you don‘t want to annoy people with your problems or something like that.
And what people also always forget: This show was BASED on a book where there was not shown how to prevent it. But what they did in the show is that they put trigger warnings before triggering episodes and they also have shown a webside for suicidal preventions.
Lisa Wohlmuther THANK YOU! These were my exact thoughts! I personally liked the show more than the book.
But the major problem is that her intentions were to affect the people that wronged hermand and she succeeded in doing that. For a person that blames themselves for another persons suicide or a person who could possibly be in this situation it can be extremely harmful. Instead of figuring out what the could have done they blame themselves even more. Like clay did when he heard his tape.
The creator of 13 Reasons Why knows nothing about mental health. They just wanted money.
Thank you for sharing this Lisa. You're so right. (I hope you are feeling better.) I don't go up to people now as an adult & tell them my feelings. I certainly didn't do it as a teenager. A boy in our class hung himself in 7th grade. I remember we were told not to talk about it. There were no counselors but that was back in the 80's before Therapy was Cool.
They made her suicide a revenge plot. I struggle with major depressive disorder and am a survivor of 5 suicide attempts. I know about the topic, I have experienced it.
Committing suicide is not about revenge. It’s about finally leaving this painful world. You blame yourself for everything, not those around you. And let’s say someone did commit suicide to get revenge on those who hurt him/her. They wouldn’t be around to watch their elaborate plan enfold!! Suicide is final, there is nothing more to it. Season 2 fucked that up.
I agree showing the suicide wasn’t too much of an issue, even if it is triggering. There were trigger warnings. But she committed suicide as some kind of fucked up way of hurting those who hurt her. It’s fucking gross. I feel sick knowing that it exists. Knowing that if one of my attempts is to succeed, people who have no prior knowledge of suicide or depression, and only have this show for info, will automatically put the two together. It’s bad exposure. They’ll think it’s more selfish than they already think.
It took me years to get help, so I’ll agree that isn’t easy. It’s hard to talk about it.
But that revenge plot just fucked the whole thing up.
I totally agree that the reasons were a bit over exaggerated.
I was upset about the Zach scenario also, I felt he did nothing wrong
even specialists said that graphical content especially suicide scene shouldn't be in show like that. good job doing research Netflix!
And the so called specialist have to scip the scene?? Seriously?!
And thats the kind of "help" I shall seek if I am feeling like Hannah?!
They cant even go through "the pain" of watching it...
Its not like I can scip the pictures in my head. And for us #likeHannah its not fiction.
It makes me sick to hear about the spceialists that never once walked in my shoes but think they get to decide for me.
Its like slapping in my face.
Thanks allot.
100% agree. This show had such a large audience and did a terrible job portraying the accuracy of mental illness and suicide
It's pretty accurate for the age group it's about.
@@wearetheiam4720 you would have to be suffering from some sort of mental illness to commit suicide. Nobody commits suicide just to do it...
I just wanted to add something here about school counselors. while in this instance the "writers" could have made some nice choices to portray things in a positive light... the real world isn't always. I say this from personal experience, I was being severely emotionally and mentally abused by other students at my school... and when I finally went to see the school counselor and tried opening up about my issues and how I was feeling... the words out of his mouth were "Well what are you doing that makes them hate you" the COUNSELOR BLAMED ME for the abuse I was getting (which btw was about how ugly and worthless I was and why hadn't I committed suicide yet so that they wouldn't have to see someone so hideous)
This sounds familiar. In my school, we usually had one counselor for hundreds of students, and the job entailed other administrative duties. We were in a small rural town, and how the counselors treated students was affected by all the shenanigans that go with that. I went to my counselor in the 6th grade in a similar intense bullying situation. She laughed at me and said "I can't solve all your problems for you." Another one laughed at my career aspirations in high school and offered ZERO advice on how to attain them. She just said it would never happen. Some of these people are useless at best and destructive at worst. I think Kati is approaching this with some rose colored glasses because she seems to have had such good experiences.
The other thing that I think people are missing is that the thing that causes you to be depressed is often the thing that causes you to not trust people, misinterpret their actions and so on. Rape, child abuse, and a lot of other things often make you push people away. You don't want to tell people about stuff because you're afraid of how they'll react, what the abuser might do and so on. Things build up from there to the point that you don't want to tell anybody about anything that hurt your feelings, and you have so much hurt going on in the first place that everything is a big deal.
Now imagine you've got all this going on and you go to a counselor that has a reaction like he did to you or me, or like the one did to Hannah. (I didn't make it that far into the show but Kati talked about it.) Of COURSE you're going to overreact or not give them a second chance. I guess I'm going to have to watch the rest of the series now, if for nothing else than to find out why she was using cassettes.
A friend in high school killed himself to undoubtedly punish his parents and girlfriend. It's terrible, but it does occur.
That is just a so so bad uncompassionate thing to say about anyone - never mind a friend.
- I don’t think people kill themselves to punish people - I think their despair goes far past that and far past what most people can imagine.
@@sherunswithscissors You weren't there and didn't know him. You sound a bit naive.
I too have had a person close to me commit suicide - if you want to call my empathy naivety so be it.
@@marccline5475 if you dont give us fucking details.... Sorry that we try and see the good in people. Yeah, you're so right i should assume everyone is bad thank you
The effects of “major” traumas can be exacerbated by seemingly smaller traumas or micro-assaults on identity and self-esteem. When there is chronic bullying involved, young adults such as Hannah can be especially susceptible to self-harm or suicide because they’ve already begun to develop a sense of learned helplessness early on.
When trauma is compounded by other traumas in a very short period of time, during an extremely vulnerable stage of development, the effects can literally rewire the brain.
However, when there is a chain of traumas that shape your early development, this complex trauma is enough to send anyone over the edge. Hannah's self-esteem was gradually eroding, with increasing lack of hope in having authentic friendships and support, she was subjected to profound and immense amount of emotional invalidation and bullying from the very people who could have helped her. This comes to show that you just can't know what's going on in someone else's life so watch your words and your actions. Maybe the person has more reasons to live than to die but you just mess with them and add up on their “reasons why not to live” list. Imagine an act so small can help build or break someone's life. That what I feel the Show wanted to show us.
I believe the show isn't aimed at people who are going through similar things its aimed at at bullies and the people who don't know much about suicide and such things thats why the graphic scenes were somewhat needed
ShaunaMaree 100% Yes
Just about every respected mental health and suicide prevention organization and the vast majority of experts in psychiatry vehemently stress that graphic depictions of suicide, explicit details about a suicide, and constantly focusing on a suicide/glorifying it in media is the worst thing you can do to prevent suicide especially among vulnerable populations like teens and those with mental illness. There have actually been many incidents where teens killed themselves or threatened to do so in the past year and there was a clear link to the series. For example these high schoolers sent group texts where they said they were gonna kill themselves and made lists of people they blamed with explanations of what these people supposedly did. And they explicitly mentioned this very series.
ShaunaMaree also you don't need graphic videos to know rape is wrong or that suicide is bad. Rapists know rape is wrong, they just don't give a fuck and want to hurt people. People who commit suicide know it's bad but they're so messed up mentally they believe it's the best option.
I think the school counselor completely failed her. I know it's part of the protocol but since this was the first time she had told anyone. He should have kept her there and got in contact with someone else. Her mother, a friend, a female counselor or a specialized rape counselor. He could have called anyone who she could probably open up to easier. He didn't even ask her more about her mental health. He didn't even ask if she had thoughts of hurting herself! Even after she said she felt totally lost.
Also! I feel like the way he was wording it was very much putting the blame back on her. When she couldn't make herself say the word rape. Asking her if she just regretted it? Really? I can totally see why she would be so angry and defeated when she left that office.
I very much agree that they could have added much more resources! That is for sure.
The show is in no way perfect but I think they did a good job of truly showing things mostly for her perspective. People are not always fair to one another and some people do chose to leave this life with anger and resentment as well as other things. And it is very regrettable that they didn't mention or highlight her obvious and serious mental illness/ state in the show. Or highlight how incredibly secretive and easy it was for her to hide all of this from the people around her.
This show is good at showing the perspective of a person who commits suicide and it leave everyone around them very confused and not understanding why. And even though she left these tapes that doesn't show the whole picture. That barely scratches the surface.
LiveeMusic You worded this perfectly for me! Because yes it is based on the book by Jay Asher and I think he did a really good job along with Selena Gomez and her mom Mandy in producing this series. I hope that Jay Asher does write another book that would either be her life before everything started falling apart. And then, even also a book that follows up on after Hannah takes her life and then he/they could incorroperate mental health services and help others after Hannah had done what she did and how what she did to make it all stop based on what she went through can then get more people to reach out or speak what is on their mind. Once people begin to speak what is going on in their heads they can get the proper help and care before they get to sucked in and lost in their thoughts and think that suicide is their only way out. Which is coming from personal experience and what I have gone through mentally.
I still love your videos Katie and cannot wait see what you and Jay Asher have planned for the future! Along with what Jay Asher also, hopefully, ends up partnering with Netflix for anything else. 💕💕 #Kinions
So any time a female talks to a guidance counselor upset and it may or may not involve an intimate encounter, we're not sure with who, when, what happened etc, he should call the cops immediately? She never said anything that could make a reasonable person with no knowledge of what the viewer does to believe a crime has been committed. And the fact that she refused to give more information, which means it's not possible to file a police report, is even worse. If you don't want to file a police report, pretty much all you can do is find someone to talk to. His comment about "moving on" wasn't meant to be rude or dismissive, it was aimed towards helping her heal, because that's really all he can offer if she didn't give any more info for legal action. Do you expect guidance counselors to run through the school waving a magic wand that magically makes all rapists glow purple?
Adding on to that^ comment: He's a SCHOOL GUIDANCE COUNSELOR. He is NOT in any way, shape, or form someone who specializes in these sorts of things. She made it clear to him that she wanted to leave. What's he supposed to do? Tie her to the chair? Chase her through the halls? I know that's what she expected him to do, but that's not reasonable. For all we know, that person calling him was another student he has meetings with who was also raped by Mr. Rich Boy Jock (He seems to be making a habit of raping people) and this person is opening up to him. Or maybe it was a personal emergency. We don't know. He's not equipped to deal with these sorts of things. The guidance counselors are meant as A) A gateway towards professional help for those in need. B) Someone to talk to about minor details on a daily basis. And C) Someone to help students with college and/or classes.
I only read the book years ago but back then I really hated that she blamed some guy that handles minor problems of students for not being able to see that she is suicidal. If she told him everything, that would have been different, but she didn't say anything of importance as far as I remember
I really liked it but holy crap, trigger central 😕
Had me low for a few weeks afterward.
me too
ikr
The painting behind her head looks like be more chill, is it just me?
I think it's a Woven rug, it's beautiful
As someone who was depressed in high school, I could totally relate to Hannah about how hard it is to actually reach out at that stage in life. So, I think that was realistic. I think it would have actually been less realistic to have her reach out as if she had all these resources... Unfortunately, many people (esp. teenagers) still don't know about all the resources and don't have good therapy options available to them.
I had to stop watching it coz there were too many triggers for me
*stop watching 13 reasons why
C May Black SAME
Yeah.. I think many people felt that way. I am so glad you stopped when you needed to. xoxo
So am I especially because of the rape scene! Being a survivor of rape it would of been very difficult to watch. Thank you Kati for your upload x
I had lots of problems as a teen and as an adult, I'm still suffering the consequences, because some things stick with you no matter how better you get. This show was very triggering and brought many memories back. It was hard to watch but at the same time, I finally realized how far I've come. On other hand, I've been feeling down since I watched it and I thank God this wasn't around when I was a teen.
I cannot feel sympathy for Hannah, it is very hard for me, I think she is very egocentric and thinks everything is surrounded around her and she exaggerates things when some are not that bad. I feel bad for thinking that because I know every person is different and what is too much for someone might be not a big deal for another. Watching it I felt as if she thinks everything is everyone's fault and that people need to focus on her in order for her not to do so. I think depression and suicide don't necessary need to come from a big trauma, but for many little things and all together create a big snowball. Also, people are living their life, if someone doesn't ask for help explicitly most of them don't realize that person needs help. We can't read each other minds. I never asked anyone for help, so I would never blame anyone if something happened to me. When Hannah gives life a change it reminds me of my ex-gf with depression that thought if someone loved her, everything would be ok with it. But that's too much responsibility to put in someone and very selfish, at least in my perspective.
I felt way more sympathy with Clay and Zach and felt very sorry for the guilt they might have felt after since they did nothing wrong in my opinion. Zach had his own issues going and that's what should come first for him.
This video is excellent. I am so thankful for the way you structured and explained this video and the concern you have and I'm glad you made it. I would personally never watch anything that wasnt realistic and overdone and not taken seriously regarding mental health and done for shock value. Thank you!
I think that a lot of people are forgetting that this series was based on a book and when creating the show I don't think Netflix took into account that a scene can be a lot more triggering when made visual that it can be when read. All of Kati's points are really valid and I think the biggest problem is that Netflix didn't think about how to translate the book to screen properly. According to a lot of the articles I've read the show is fairly true to the book, which was set in 2007, which is why there is probably not a mention of the help you can receive for mental health issues, firstly because it was not such a prominent issue or something that was talked about back then but also because Netflix didn't consider that and change the story around a bit to show that there are now those resources. I was also really angry about the scene of Hannah's suicide. I myself have not had issues with suicidal thoughts but I found it so upsetting and graphic and it was so unnecessary ESPECIALLY as in the book Hannah is said to have overdosed. This made me so angry because not only did they create a horrific and triggering scene it was one they didn't need to create.
I’m a therapist and watched the series because I knew my clients would (despite my recommendation that no one should). I agree- very few redeeming qualities. I didn’t read the book so I can’t speak to the decisions Netflix made about how they would tell the story. What I do know is that ER visits for suicidal ideation and suicidality increased as did Suicide rates following the first season. I can’t believe this show was approved for a second and third season.
I couldn’t watch the episodes back to back because I spend most of my time doing progress notes so it took me longer to get through it and I was aware of my mood shifting. I felt sad and depressed not just while I was watching but between episodes and for some time following the end of the first season. I agree completely. Should have been pulled. To the Bone should be pulled as well.
Firstly, I've been watching your videos since a few weeks now and I find them extremely helpful! Thank you for doing what you're doing.
The reason I never commented on any of the videos before is because they've been posted long back and honestly, I didn't exactly have an opinion I wanted to get across.
However, even though I agree with all of your opinions, I liked the show 13 reasons why and here's what I felt/thought about it.
1. I'm not from US but was emotionally bullied in school (of course not in any of the rough ways like Hannah) so I could relate to the "minor" reasons which you said were probably not needed to be included but I can tell firsthand that when small reasons pile up, they can feel like one big reason.
2. A senior from my school committed suicide when I was in 10th grade, right in middle of of our exam time. And we weren't given any therapist/counselor/help etc. It's just not common here. So when Hannah didn't reach out for help despite going through highs and lows, I understood her.
3. As for the show's genre, I think it falls under thriller rather than mental health awareness thingy (?) and from that POV, they did a good job. Yes, they should have added more positivity in between but their idea was pretty clear in the beginning, we knew she was going to kill herself and showing false hope in between could have been... Idk, fake?
4. When I watched the show I was having immense suicidal thoughts and since I hadn't been to a therapist back then didn't know I had depression. However, watching the show didn't trigger me. Instead, it pushed the thoughts of actually committing suicide out of my mind when I saw what Hannah's tapes did to those 13 people. As you mentioned, it's difficult to empathize with Hannah since she's so angry and irritated and upset by small things. But that's what was happening to me and so it sort of showed me the other side of the coin and I was all like 'no, I don't want to put my loved ones through what Hannah did to others'. So it actually pulled me out of my suicidal serious thoughts.
Other than that, I know most of the people commenting here think that the show's not good and if it's triggering for you, I sincerely recommend you don't watch it but for me, who loves thrillers and has mental health issues, I kinda liked the show. Yes, I think it could have been better but I didn't think it was waste of my time to watch it as it actually helped me.
Just felt like voicing the other side of the coin. Thanks. And sorry if any of this offended anyone. That was by no way my intention.
P.S. I did watch season 2 too.
Beautifully written.
I totally agree. I hate when they say Hannah was exaggerating. People who says that have no idea how hard depression can be, how little things can pile up and become huge things out of no where. The show helped a lot as well
@@princessteys22 the show doesn't care about the problems it talks about. Clay literally steps in front of a shooter's gun. That is so dramatized and a fucking terrible idea in the real world. The show is fun if you dont take it seriously but the show is dogshit and unrealistic with the way it handled its serious topics. The shows plot line is fun but it handles mental illness badly and over dramatizes these real issues. Its disgusting
I'm not meaning any offence by this but it shouldn't matter how insignificant you think that something might be for example, Hannah made Zach a tape because he took her compliments and to most people that would seem like nothing. I think people need to understand that she was not in a good state of mind and her judgement was severely clouded. All these reasons added up and go to be so effected by these people's smallest actions there was obviously an underlying issue. I don't think you should go as far as to say you didn't like Hannah because she lashes out at everyone over nothing. Isn't that what mentally ill people do. I know that's what I did. It's not our fault. I thought a therapist would be a little more understanding and that these things are relative and people deal with things differently.
Sophee Kerslake I agree. And I think the reason why mental health wasn’t really talked about because Hannah didn’t know she had a mental illness. Because as an outsider, we can see she was clearly depressed.
I understand what you mean but also I feel like to be able to tie everything together of her reactions we needed to understand more about her feelings.. that was a huge thing that was lacking for me, I didn't "feel" the depression she was going through so it was harder for me to completely relate to her and understand her behaviour and I think yeah many people can act like that and that's when we can take it as signs of depression but others may not understand and that why we needed to get a bit more into Hannah's head to understand her point of view.... I feel like how they portrayed the reasons she was feeling that way were very petty and not well accomplished :/
Yes this review really rubbed me the wrong way...
@@Maribassino I understand what you are saying. But I think you missed one little thing there.
If you are not depressed, you will not ever actually be able to be inside a depresive person's head.It is like wanting to see the halucinations of a schizofrenic before being able to feel their pain. You will never see any of these YOURSELF.
In order to have empathy and help, you must believe them. If Hannah acted triggered and offended, she was and needed help patience and empathy.
A depressed person will have a really hard time realising they are overracting, if they ever do realise.
You saw everything she went through and knew how it made her feel. It is just how far you can get.
in school, there was a copy of the book in one of the desks and i cringed. i avoided watching the show for it's bad image of why people kill themselves.
Heaven Hart could you explain what you mean?
8:19
Old video is old, but maybe my comment will still be useful in some way:
I can't say I find that unrealistic. Many people unfortunately don't reach out for the help they need, sometimes due to their mental state, sometimes due to previous bad experiences, sometimes due to being unable to afford the treatment they need or the _level_ of treatment they need, etc. Personally, it's an issue I struggle with- I don't have the money to afford ongoing care, healthcare in my country only covers a few free sessions a year (three, from memory. At that point, why bother?), and my social anxiety makes it really hard for me to talk to anyone I don't know well about these matters. Anonymous comments online? Easy. Any kind of actual discussion, online or in person? Nonononono. Especially not if it's revolving door therapy, I can't do that every time with a new person.
Maybe Hannah was in a place where she thought it wouldn't help, where she didn't know how to take those steps towards getting help. I get the feeling the purpose of this series was to present an example of how events in the show can effect a person, to present how seriously even the smaller matters may effect an individual, how they can add up for a person, not to serve as a guide for what mental illness is like in general or what you should do if you have one. The vibe I got from the show is that it's meant to be for those who don't have a mental illness, to consider their actions and how they treat others, to be something like an Aesop (when they're adapted for TV and meant to also be entertainment, anyway).
ThatBoringOne - I hope you're feeling alright right now, and good luck with things in general.
I know you're comment's a bit old but oh well. I think you bring up a fair point, that many people don't reach out for the help they need, either because of mental shackles or because they don't have the resources. You're totally right there. (Although, I still believe that this is not how the show presents it, but your point holds value.)
I'm similar to you, I've got moderate depression that kind of hits like a tank sometimes, and Generalised Anxiety Disorder, and yeah, it's hard to reach out for sure.
However, I don't believe the show really talks on that. I think it tries to make other characters seem evil (Bryce's actions clearly are, but he's really one of the only exceptions).
Anyhow, I think your perspective's interesting. I think that, if done right, that yes this show could make those points. That small things might matter, like your friends straying away from you. But I think the show, instead of doing this realistically and genuinely, does it in a way that makes the other characters seem cruel and horrible. I feel that 13 Reasons Why did not handle that concept well. I think your opinion is far more open-minded than most others though, so I appreciate it.
One of my biggest issues with this show was the fact that they made it seem to everyone that a counselor would never help you and that you'd always be turned away for seeking help. When that's quite far from the truth. I've suffered and still am suffering with depression and suicidal tendencies, and I've learned that there's always someone willing to help you. Something this show doesn't bring to light. Instead it suggests that there is no hope anywhere and that you'll never find the help you need.
When I was 14 I was extremely depressed and I seriously thought about talking to my guidance counsellor at school, but I the end I didn't. I didn't understand why I was so depressed and thought my family didn't have problems because my parents were Christians. Was I ever wrong! I wish I had sought help back then, but I felt that I didn't have any reasons for feeling the way I felt, and I honestly thought my school counsellor would think I was just wasting her time. My issues continued to get worse, and the problems in my so-called perfect Christian family kept getting worse. When I finally did seek help, the therapist insinuated that I must have been sexually abused as a child, and that I just didn't remember. That led me down a very dark road. I have been in and out of therapy for years, and still struggle every day. I've had many diagnoses, including PTSD and bipolar disorder. Anyway, sometimes I wonder how things would have turned out had I sought help at the age of 14.
Me too
I watched four episodes then my friend committed suicide and I was like "mentally I know I can't handle that." and switched to switched at birth. then the next week a friend of mine OD'd (luckily he made it) and I just cut it off throughout
ALSO: our school had a suicide protocol to help us heal, it was helpful.
I am so sorry for all of the loss you have been through. I am so glad your school has a suicide protocol. Please talk to someone if you haven't already. xoxo
Kati Morton (I'm personally religious, Christian more in depth) I have been clinging onto my faith, reading my bible and trying to center myself more so I mean...I'm alive, and of course I've talked to my mum and family about it and stuff. but if you respond back, now I know HOW he did it and everything, but how to I move past that? I mean...this guys in court because he and a few others saw the suicide and never reported. how do I stay positive when everyone else is SO negative in my school life? even friends and stuff, they're struggling too and stuff. idk
i´m so glad you made this video. now i feel less strange about not likeing the series. by the way in the chat (on the webside) we have talked alot about not likeing doctors today. which made me think of this question. how to react when multiple doctors have yelled at you?
It triggered me.
I'm 45 and it took until I was 33 to somewhat get a handle on my depression/suicidal thoughts. My family intervened and they helped me to get the proper help to deal with it all.
LOVE MY FAMILY!!
As a rape survivor i felt very understood because of Jessica's story line. How she first was lied to by every one and couldn't understand herself and than slowly started to realize and also the process after... I also think that because the show was written from Hannahs perpsective it also brings awareness to the fact that in a lot of high schools and in general mental health services are not visible to those who need them. Also the school counselor showed a common ignorant response to hannas rape claims and when he said get over it this was the biggest problem. Here he could have said :ok you can try to talk to a therapist instead but he didn't...
It’s funny how different people view things. To me Hannah didn’t do it out of revenge and I feel like I am Hannah when I watch the show. She’s not lashing out cause she’s aggressive but she has that fear and anger. If you’ve ever gone through being abused and bullied you might know what I’m on about, but I loved Hannah, my boyfriend loved Hannah. My cousin with bpd loves Hannah and didn’t think it was revenge etc. Your views baffles me and I was wondering if we watched the same show at first but I never saw it that way and it’s funny to me how different things are for different people :)
To me.. I just really loved the series and it made me feel less alone.
i loved this show.
And i dont think she killed herself out revenge because she really was hurting and the reason she made the tapes is to have everyone realize what they did to hurt her and lead her to suicide.
I think most people can say they didn't love or even like Hannah.. It's fine if you love the show, but it wasn't realistic, filled wit teen drama, and tryna be more important than it should have been.. Hannah was not a good person..
Agreeeeeeeee ugh and i really don’t mean to be disrespectful but ohhhh the irony of a therapist getting mad at someone who’s EVIDENTLY sick and then complaining ab them not seeking help. Lol. This is EXACTLY why ppl like her, me and many others never do
My girlfriend is also a mental health care professional and learning from our conversations i couldn't disagree with you more about a lot of things you said...having more than one person in my life having been on suicide watch and been through both the proper route with seeking help as well as not this show hit a lot of very REAL points. Having talked to the friends of mine who have watched it they talk about going through the same problems nearly exactly. Things like feeling weak and a failure can easily prevent you from talking to your parents, or perhaps knowing they have money issues persuades you from thinking you couldn't afford the help and they can't be bothered to help you because of all the things they have going on. The very graphic scenes were too far i can agree with.
Also maybe i'm just speaking from my own city/country but most school councilors here have little to no psych training at all and in fact they only hire teachers because of the union which often leaves for very few of them having any experience with much on the life counselling and are there to give you tips about your career. Mentioning the rape....you working in your industry you know how little it's reported let alone say the persons name and you expect her to talk freely about it in a school office?
At the end of the day your last comment about not doing a good job bringing awareness to the topic.....you're talking about it just as everyone here in the comments and many other people around the world i'm sure who have watched it or not so i think it did a pretty good job spreading awareness. The whole point to awareness is to try and get the people who need help to come into your office for help....if it was as easy as you believe it is to just go or talk to someone we wouldn't need any awareness..
Dustin YES
100% agreed
Ever since I've watched the series I became SO depressed that I feel suicidal all the time. I have depression but recently I was in a pretty happy place, getting my life planed and on track a little and now I'm in my bed all day feeling empty again. I honestly hate this series because it made every nightmare in my life come back to me with the double force. I regret watching it and if you ever had mental issues I would recomend DON'T watch it!
Absolutely love this video! So many of the articles I've read in regards to the series, with as big a problem as it is, merely call out the show for its graphic suicide scene. In reality there are so many more subtle flaws with the programme as a whole. In all, the show missed a huge opportunity to be a voice for the reality of mental illness.
I couldn't agree with you more. xoxo
The Seth one I actually get... when you’re already feeling hopeless the little things are a lot bigger.
When she mentions about how the school she went to offered mental health services when someone died but in the show, there was none of that it is really stupid that they didn't do that. In my school, about 3 or 4 kids had passed away along with 2 teachers and we didn't get any of that. No mental health care, no time off etc. So as much as it sucks in the show it also sucks that some school actually don't do that or at least didn't, which trust I would've known if there was because I was I asked every teacher and the principal. It honestly makes me sick.
I read the book and although it is told through Clays pov I think they were trying to get at the fact that its really hard to reach out and maybe things could have been handled better but if things were handled properly all the time then no one would kill themselves. That would be wonderful. I just think maybe it was to stress how ignored and difficult Hannah's situation was. I see your points though.
Hated the stupid series. It's just glamourising such serious issues to teenagers whereby they didn't show actually how painful it is to go through assaults and suicidal thoughts. It was just shown as a simple light hearted thing. Absolutely shocking. what gets me so mad is how many young impressionable people idiolize it and actually think that its all true and realistic when in reality all of the scenes shown weren't realistic. It didn't bring awareness of mental illness, how can it when mental illness wasn't even really mentioned!!!! THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS KATI!
I completely understand why all of this was frustrating for you and I agree they should've mentioned mental health services. I do have to disagree that they should've shown her at a therapist because that gives people the excuse that therapy doesn't work because she ultimately killed herself. I think the best way would've been to have the other students mention the mental health services during the aftermath. Maybe showing one of them getting help. (Someone like Alex)
I also think the Zach incident where he takes her notes made sense because those notes gave her self worth.
The stop sign one didn't make too much sense to me though.
I also think that the show almost gives people dealing with suicidal thoughts because of similar reasons a weird validation. I just think it says "it makes sense I feel this way" because when it ends they could've really highlighted how maybe they save Alex's life and everyone notices his signs that he needs help or he seeks help.
I think the show was fantastic because it A) brings awareness to many taboo topics B) Hannah didn’t commit suicide as revenge and C) many of the reactions to certain things in the show were almost identical to a typical real life reaction tour average person would have and it’s important to see that and change how we react to these situations
Hi Kati, I think this is a great video even though I disagree with some of the things you mentioned.
I agree that this show is triggering and that people who suffer mental illness will be more affected than "others". Maybe this show was meant for the "others"? And I also agree that it is unnecessary for them to line up a series of unfortunate events. So yes, there are many ways they could have done it better but chose not to. However it is a start.
Personally, I found the show relatable. I was a victim of multiple bullying when I was still in school and the way they portrayed how a teen (or myself) would feel in that situation was similar to my experience. I think the show's goal is to bring awareness to parents, teachers, school counsellors, and "bullies". Yes the show is being dramatic, and yes I agree that the show did not provide enough resources. But aren't teenagers melodramatic anyway?
At that point in my life, I reached out to teachers whom I thought I could confide in only to have them brush me aside. And I even tried to tell my parents who gently told me to suck it up (may not be the best way for them to handle it in such a manner but I bear no grudges towards them. Also, it might have been an Asian parent thing). Eventually, I lost faith that any adults could help. Melodramatic, I know.
Anyway, keep doing what you do! I really enjoy watching your videos even though I'm still pretty new to your channel.
Maybe the show was meant for "others"? So somehow people who are suffering from mental illness shouldn't be watching netflix? Get out of here
I honestly like 13 reasons why because it made me uncomfortable to watch and being threw attempting myself, its not a comfortable topic and people shouldn't think that its easy but painful like they kinda showed. They could have definitely made it a little more realistic but for those who don't have any history with it or knowledge it gives them a little bit of information of how suicide effects people. But personally it also really triggered me, so if you get triggered easily i definitely don't recommend it. It was definitely kinda to graphic for me.
Sarah Ivery oh hey sarah!!
Hi Maya!!!!!!!!
Thank you so much for this video Kati! I was caught up in the hype of this show, and started watching without too much knowledge of what it was about. I was only able to make it through part of the 2nd episode before I realised that this was not good for ME. It brought up a lot of bad memories and bad thoughts for me, and I am happy that I was physically able to get up and shut it off whereas normally I would have not done so. But even with their supposed "trigger warnings" why. was. it. made. in. the. first. place? Like you said, they don't mention tools or mental health professionals that would have HELPED people. Ugh the show makes me angry too...
Maddison Lynne i'm glad you were able to shut it off. i know it's so hard for me personally to pull away from things that are bad for me a lot of the time, and I feel like this is why it's so baffling that they would make so many bad decisions in this and show so much disregard for the ways it could bring harm to people. I've seen so many people talk about how the trigger warnings in the show could've *never* prepared them to expect or believ that it would be AS BAD and as graphic as it actually was...
it's like... if these people wanted to bring some kind of "awareness" to people who don't struggle with mental illness, by using shock value, with total disregard to how unsafe their show is to those who've struggled with this kind of thing... then like, why make the damn thing? They seemed to be weighing their impact on a non-suicidal or not mentally ill audience more than the impact on the people who are or have been in this kind of place. which is just so backwards it blows my mind
Also, the show left resources in their follow up show - the website is 13reasonswhy.info . There are numbers for people to get help.
I like the first season of this show because it has depicted my life after my friend's suicide. At the time he'd been living in a different city for a couple of years so I wasn't physically around and his death shocked me, and I saw myself in Clay's journey. Trying to figure out the missing pieces, knowing people's secrets, feeling totally lost and unable to stop thinking "If only I was there"... I'm not a psychologist, I'm just a girl, but I love Clay, his story is my story. Like, literally. I had the same "Between friendship and love" type of a bond.
These days children are not so open up to their parents.. It is very rare.. I have tried to talk things with mine when i was only 7 and was experiencing bullying on the streets while playing with other children. My parents had just told me: defend yourself. Nobody has taught me how, and to this day i don't realize when i am being bullied. It continued in elementary and high school.. And of course, today when you try to locate who is guilty of your state of mind, comes the gaslighting as the only escape for them.. I don't even know if people realize how 'small' mistakes like that with their children can leave them broken for life.. I was not at my worst when i tried watching the series, but was definitely triggering and has left me depressed after just 3 episodes for almost 2 months..
Thanks for this video Kati, you are absolutely right and I totally agree with you on most of the points you made. I think it's so important to see this show as "shock material" and prevent teenagers or any other kind of person struggeling with those issues from watching it because it might be really triggering and does barely include any ressources or ways of getting help.
I also wanted Hannah to talk to her parents all the time and I don't know why she was couldn't open up to Clay, but I think this might be more or less a realistic situation because some people have a really hard time opening up and talking about her feelings. However all those bad things she has experienced would have been to much for anyone to deal with and I think that most of the people in the end would have gotten help. Also it seems very unrealistic to me that all those events happen in a row and that every single student at this school wants bad for her. Of course bullying is a serious issue and it happens and there are people who feel very lonely in those times and might not have someone (obvious) to reach out to. But the way it is shown in the series just makes me think of this Highschool as a crazy place - like you said, it is too exaggerated.
My 14 year old sister has seen this series (if I had known I would have forbidden her to do so) and she didn't get triggered and took it very well (as she told me), the problem is that now she totally believes that it is a 100% realistic situation and that all Highschools in America have things like that going on, which is not true. She has some friends that also suffer from depression (or depressive periods) and self harm and now she might even think they are going to kill themselves without having any idea how to reach out for help WHICH IS THE IMPORTANT THING WE SHOULD TEACH TO OUR YOUTH!!!
Well sorry for this long text, but I had to put my opinion here because I think it is so important what you said about the series. Thanks a lot Kati, also for your other videos and advice. When I watch your videos I always think I wanna become somebody like you someday :)
Greetings
Laura
8:58 Last year a student at my school tried to commit suicide during school and we now have something similar where you can go see a counselor or mental health specialist during lunch.
After watching it, it left me feeling depressed and suicidal. I hated it.
Your reaction and that of all the other youtube therapists is a good example why i lost hope in your profession... Most therapists I sat with were arrogant, unreflected, judging, thought they knew everything but never experienced it themselves and just said what they learned as facts, couldn't handle criticism... It just doesn't work! You can't learn it if you don't have the life experience yourself. It's not a job, it's a gift.
The series was based off of a novel, Netflix stuck to the outline of the novel. In the book she didn’t seek out help, and I am not going to say everyone does this, but when some teens feel suicidal like myself it’s hard to ask for help because it feels no one could help your so hopeless. Someone close to me when I was suicidal had to get to me and convince that their is a possibility to get better. So I’m not saying it’s right, but I am saying I can see where Hannah was coming from.
I disagree with your analysis. I have depression, I’ve attempted suicide once, and I’ve been committed to a psych ward. This show explained everything that happened in my head during that dark period in my life. I’ve had thoughts like “if I was dead I wonder if anybody would feel bad for how they treated me”. I’m not saying it’s right or healthy, but it’s a thought I’ve had multiple times. Her friends weren’t super nice to her, her parents weren’t emotionally available for her to talk to, and the guidance counselor wasn’t willing to help. She was bullied and raped. I feel like they didn’t include all of the mental health aids because, well, then she wouldn’t have killed herself. This show was a cautionary tale for what happens when mental health is ignored. It’s not about a bullied girl with all the help in the world making a full recovery. And yes I agree that it was triggering. I had a panic attack watching the suicide scene. I ignored the trigger warning and chose to watch it alone. They could’ve made it shorter, or even better, they could’ve had an auto skip before and after the graphic scene. But I’m happy I watched it and I think it’s an important look into how a hopeless person thinks
I have depression, I've attempted suicide twice. I _hated_ this show. I thought it was absolutely terrible, and actually more damaging to the mental health community than helpful. And they absolutely portrayed the main character as selfish rather than hopeless.
I have BPD (borderline personality) and I think maybe Hannah did too. This show was so relatable to me. As an adult in therapy and classes for my BPD looking back on my high school days (over ten years ago) this is EXACTLY how I felt. I was selfish. But many teenagers are. As an adult, everything in high school was blown out of proportion, but it didn’t feel like it at the time. Much like Hannah. I loved that the scenes were uncomfortable. And I think it was a good thing. To me, I feel like suicide has been glamorized. I think this actually took away the glamour. It showed the awful and painful truth about it. It’s not pretty or easy. It’s hard. For the person committing suicide and the people left to deal with it. As a teenager, I too felt the “when I kill myself then they’ll be sorry” I have attempted suicide when I was younger more than once. Been in the psych ward more than once. I didn’t have any resources when I was a teenager. No one was there trying to help me through. And as a teenager, you feel like no one could possibly understand or care. Is it dramatic? To everyone else, including future adult you, yes of course. But to the mentally unstable and traumatized hormonal teenager, no it doesn’t feel dramatic at all. I related to Hannah so much. And when I was her age in similar situations acting similar ways, I was told I was being selfish and lashing out and pushing people away. But to me, and to Hannah I’m sure, it felt like no one cared, like I didn’t matter, like nothing was ever or even could ever get better. That life is just a big huge mess, I was a mistake. Everything for everyone would be easier if I wasn’t around. Everyone hates me anyways. This is a reality for a lot of teenagers. As uncomfortable and awful as it is. A lot of people say Hannah was an unlikeable character, but to people who have struggled with mental health issues, she’s a relatable character. I don’t think it was just depression. If I had only depression and not BPD I’m sure my symptoms would present themselves differently. But I definitely felt connected to her. As an adult now I see the folly. But man, does it ring true for my past. I didn’t have any mental health aids. Most teenagers don’t. I think this is a very realistic portrayal
Jackee Lee Dee if Hannah survived she needs to be in jail. But it’s just a show and book
Yes
Hello! Long time viewer, first time commenter :)
I'm already struggling (maybe not relating?) 04:00 in or so where you're discussing Hannah's reasons for including Zach within the tapes and expressing a dislike for her character due to her outbursts.
I found Hannah to be expressing her despair and distrust in the world around her. She felt tortured, a mistrust in her peers, she sought to find the 'truth' (hence planting traps), and despite having a mature vocabulary, she was young. Everything weighed down and compounded Hannah in the end.
You also express that you wish Hannah would have spoken about her problems. I believe Hannah shows a side of suicide and mental illness that doesn't get much focus and is very much why 13RW is needed. I related to her character in the simple fact that for so many years I just couldn't speak the thoughts in my head, to anybody. I was always 'fine'. We exist. Hannah's exist. You state it would have been so simple to have her speak to a crisis hotline, but it's not that easy, not when you're in so deep. Some of us are programmed differently... Our voices become paralyzed.
On the sexual assault scenes, they were indeed graphic, but they were relatable. Actually having that numbness you feel be so visible was helpful. While I do agree that they may be triggering for many individuals, I feel that these scenes, in particular, will do positive things for teens in high schools and on campus' across the globe.
Lastly, the suicide scene was hard to watch, and it was protracted, I agree with that. I do however see the 'positive' that it showed that suicide is not easy, it is painful, and it will hurt. This is not what most want when they decide to end their varying kinds of pain.
Viewer discretion is a must; you have to be in the right frame of mind to safely watch this show. Consider watching it with a support person & teens, maybe a parent/guardian.
I found value in it, as did many, but would suggest Netflix add trigger warnings throughout the eps OR a clean edit.
Such great points! I would love to hear your thoughts on season 2.
I completely agree with your points about how they could have changed the show. However you brought up some of the reasons or triggers of her suicide being small and I just want to point out that how deep things are or how deep they can feel when your depressed and at the end at the end of your rope like Hannah, things are taken to the extreme because you already feel hopeless and irritable. I just wanna share my perspective 😊
As someone who has gone through mental illness and a very dark time of life, I was disappointed how much other people were blamed for her suicide. She left these tapes to haunt these people and although she had parents who were constantly trying to reach out, she left nothing for them. I found when I myself was in that situation, I felt very guilty about leaving my family and friends. I would mourn my own life for hours think heavily about my loved one's reaction and I felt it was very inaccurate that she wanted to haunt everyone that ever knew her. I just don't feel it ever works that way.