Consciousness and Self (Rebroadcast): A Conversation with Anil Seth (Episode
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- čas přidán 20. 10. 2021
- In this episode of the Making Sense podcast, Sam Harris speaks with Anil Seth about the scientific study of consciousness, where consciousness emerges in nature, levels of consciousness, perception as a “controlled hallucination,” emotion, the experience of “pure consciousness,” consciousness as “integrated information,” measures of “brain complexity,” psychedelics, different aspects of the “self,” conscious AI, and many other topics.
Released: October 21, 2021
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Please interview Joscha Bach about consciousness
Hell yeah those minds need to collide!!
Joscha Bach, one of my favorite minds. Very good podcast with Lex Friedman
Please interview Ozzy and ask him what it's like to eat a bat.
Chec the podcast by curt jaimungal with joshcha Bach.
Also remember to interview his brother J S Bach
There are people in this world who are very, very smart. This Anil dude seems like he's on a whole other level. IQ, education, articulate, focussed, rational...the whole bit. Amazing conversation lads, thank you.
I agree my existence is nothing but one of the infinite 'expressions' of real self, which means I know what one type of vibration only as compared to what other kinds of vibrations are, I know I am solid only in comparison to liquid and gas, I am configuration of certain chemicals only with respect to other chemicals. I am animate object only with respect to inanimate objects. I call something positive charge only with respect to negative charge. I call something good only with respect to something bad. I know i am happy, only because i know there is existence of other emotions, i am son only because i know there can be other relations too in the world. I think only because i know i can live without thinking too.
I exist here only because i know i (Real-self) don't exist here.
My presence is proof that I am absent.
But why only now?? Why i didn't choose to realize Real- self when my awareness was limited to stone? when i was just solid for less dense liquid or gas. Why only now?
Well answer of this question is in question itself
Since u got the idea, it is the proof it is solution. Maybe its not easy solution. Evolution tells we came from Big bang, from physical beings we became chemical beings then we became biological being and then emotional being. Now we are seeking infinity. Yes most of us are doing it in wrong way, by trying to extending their desires, but maybe that is one way. Longer but still a way.
For people who resonate strongly with non-dualism, the proof that you resonate is enough that you are ready to chose this path. If you don't resonate its ok to chose evolutionary path as well.
@@AbcDef-tj3zt smoke less
@@LowKickMT Life is stranger than weed, consciousness is stranger than ignition. Who the fxxk needs weed when i smoke life itself. When i smoke life it gives me pleasure. Emotions, intellect everything act out as fumes. These have potential to allow me to be anything and everything. Every f**king desire makes sense. Life makes sense.
Yes I agree. Almost savant level.
I’d be flattered if Sam Harris could do a podcast with Bernardo Kastrup!
Sam don't bring people with opposing views on the nature of consciousness. Bernardo is the podcast to make
@@Mramidu He talked to Rupert Spira, though. So that’s not entirely true.
@@chasetuttle2780 True. Also had Donald Hoffman on.
Probably won't happen. Bernardo hurt Sam's feelings by stating that he misrepresented idealism when someone asked Sam what he thought of Kastrup's ideas (I think it was in his interview by Lex Friedman).
Bernardo is so antagonist against Sam, he almost uninvited himself.
@Sam Harris As a subscriber of the Waking up app, I feel that a conversation like this should be made available in full length on the app since it's really relevant. And I'd really like to hear it.
It is a travesty and a complete let down that this is not available in full length. If you say you want to help humanity, you shouldn't make people pay for that help
@@TheVladimirZecevic how do you expect he puts food on the table
@@TheVladimirZecevic if you truly can't afford the app, he offers a scholarship program where you get everything for free, look it up
@@TheVladimirZecevic you can get all podcast episodes full length for free at the price of the time it takes you to send them an email
I recently finished the book Being You by Anil Seth. Even though older, this conversation (in its complete version) touches on almost all the points made in the book. I found it very clarifying, thank you.
The anesthesiologist said "this is the stuff that killed Michael Jackson" right before the lights went out for me. I wonder if I wasn't supposed to remember that
That's propofol. It's amazing to me that someone would use that on a regular basis, for sleep in MJ's case, and more amazing that a doctor would provide it. Anesthesia and sleep are not the same.
@@sarahtonin4649 As someone with chronic insomnia, I'm not too surprised tbh
@@SuperLotus Well, I hope you won't resort to general anesthesia. There are safer ways to knock yourself out, pharmacological and non. Anxiety is the biggest sleep killer, often aggravated by caffeine from coffee, tea, soft drinks, and even chocolate.
@@sarahtonin4649 yeah, tricylic and tetracylic antidepressants are what I've mostly used. Other meds work better but cause massive weight gain.
@@SuperLotus When I was nursing, I gave quite a few patients amytriptyline at bedtime. It's still in use pretty commonly. I don't have serious trouble falling asleep, I have trouble getting myself to stop what I'm doing and go to bed and close my eyes. Once I'm there, listening to music helps. I heard someone say that the secret to falling asleep is to try to stay awake, which I've often found to be true. It definitely does not work try to sleep, which for me just creates anxiety about it. Have you tried Sam Harris's meditation technique? That can be pretty relaxing.
I'm not convinced by this Seth, he seems to me he's mostly gifted with great dialectic skills. There are a lot logical leaps in his arguments.
I love when people don't actually elaborate
34:37
If in fact being a self is essential to being conscious and
if in fact the self thought arises only in consequence of language then
"Pernicious anthropocentrism" is an absurd accusation.
How can an organism think in reference to its self
if it has no concept, no thought that means self?
Since only a self can be conscious
no organism can be conscious in the absence of
a self within its thinking process.
Even I am not conscious when my self
ceases to exist during deep and dreamless slumber.
Jack London and Walt Disney have infected many minds
with the idea that other organisms
have minds more or less identical to ours.
This childhood programming makes it difficult to
achieve a proper understanding of the concept of instinct.
This was/is one of my favourites of your podcasts.
Are you into philosophy?
@@apricus3155 philosophy is ancient compared to science.
I can't remember quite whether Anil's definition of 'real problem' puts it in quite these terms in his book (I read it over a year ago) but I just realised, in more simple clarity, how to delineate the approaches to thinking about the study of consciousness. I feel more should be made of distinguishing this third question from the other two.
The easy problem: How do biological computational mechanisms produce behaviours from inputs?
The hard problem: Why does it feel like something to be a computational system?
The real problem: What generalisable structural or functional differences distinguish a system experiencing red from one experiencing blue, one experiencing pleasure from one experiencing pain, one experiencing something from one experiencing nothing?
Blue and red are different physical phenomena, different set if information.
The experiences are processing and perception of those information. Blue and red doesn't exactly have to be same experience for you and me but the job of brain is to distinguish between them and accurately, which everyone learns.
How long is the full episode? I love Anil Seth. I'm considering subscribing for this episode.
It’s over three hours long.
@@WizWithout Oh damn! Thanks!
No matter how many degrees a person has, the first hand experience if recognised trumps any 3rd person investigator. Douglas Harding being the Master, grateful for Sam bringing him to my attention 🙏🏻
I agree my existence is nothing but one of the infinite 'expressions' of real self, which means I know what one type of vibration only as compared to what other kinds of vibrations are, I know I am solid only in comparison to liquid and gas, I am configuration of certain chemicals only with respect to other chemicals. I am animate object only with respect to inanimate objects. I call something positive charge only with respect to negative charge. I call something good only with respect to something bad. I know i am happy, only because i know there is existence of other emotions, i am son only because i know there can be other relations too in the world. I think only because i know i can live without thinking too.
I exist here only because i know i (Real-self) don't exist here.
My presence is proof that I am absent.
But why only now?? Why i didn't choose to realize Real- self when my awareness was limited to stone? when i was just solid for less dense liquid or gas. Why only now?
Well answer of this question is in question itself
Since u got the idea, it is the proof it is solution. Maybe its not easy solution. Evolution tells we came from Big bang, from physical beings we became chemical beings then we became biological being and then emotional being. Now we are seeking infinity. Yes most of us are doing it in wrong way, by trying to extending their desires, but maybe that is one way. Longer but still a way.
For people who resonate strongly with non-dualism, the proof that you resonate is enough that you are ready to chose this path. If you don't resonate its ok to chose evolutionary path as well.
It Hz my brain when he says "Hertz" instead of frequency.
We are the process by which our thoughts are created, and our actions are initiated. We are the process by which our perceptions are created.
I agree my existence is nothing but one of the infinite 'expressions' of real self, which means I know what one type of vibration only as compared to what other kinds of vibrations are, I know I am solid only in comparison to liquid and gas, I am configuration of certain chemicals only with respect to other chemicals. I am animate object only with respect to inanimate objects. I call something positive charge only with respect to negative charge. I call something good only with respect to something bad. I know i am happy, only because i know there is existence of other emotions, i am son only because i know there can be other relations too in the world. I think only because i know i can live without thinking too.
I exist here only because i know i (Real-self) don't exist here.
My presence is proof that I am absent.
But why only now?? Why i didn't choose to realize Real- self when my awareness was limited to stone? when i was just solid for less dense liquid or gas. Why only now?
Well answer of this question is in question itself
Since u got the idea, it is the proof it is solution. Maybe its not easy solution. Evolution tells we came from Big bang, from physical beings we became chemical beings then we became biological being and then emotional being. Now we are seeking infinity. Yes most of us are doing it in wrong way, by trying to extending their desires, but maybe that is one way. Longer but still a way.
For people who resonate strongly with non-dualism, the proof that you resonate is enough that you are ready to chose this path. If you don't resonate its ok to chose evolutionary path as well.
Whats "our" there? Whats perception?
@@anearthian894 By "our" I mean each of us. By perceptions I mean our mental states that correspond (imperfectly, either better or worse) with external reality.
Being conscious and knowing that you are conscious must be two very different things. I think many lower animals are conscious in a sense, that there would be something like to trade places with these animals, except you would not know that you have experience. That ''you'' or ''the self'' adds weird dimension to the problem of consciousness.
I agree my existence is nothing but one of the infinite 'expressions' of real self, which means I know what one type of vibration only as compared to what other kinds of vibrations are, I know I am solid only in comparison to liquid and gas, I am configuration of certain chemicals only with respect to other chemicals. I am animate object only with respect to inanimate objects. I call something positive charge only with respect to negative charge. I call something good only with respect to something bad. I know i am happy, only because i know there is existence of other emotions, i am son only because i know there can be other relations too in the world. I think only because i know i can live without thinking too.
I exist here only because i know i (Real-self) don't exist here.
My presence is proof that I am absent.
But why only now?? Why i didn't choose to realize Real- self when my awareness was limited to stone? when i was just solid for less dense liquid or gas. Why only now?
Well answer of this question is in question itself
Since u got the idea, it is the proof it is solution. Maybe its not easy solution. Evolution tells we came from Big bang, from physical beings we became chemical beings then we became biological being and then emotional being. Now we are seeking infinity. Yes most of us are doing it in wrong way, by trying to extending their desires, but maybe that is one way. Longer but still a way.
For people who resonate strongly with non-dualism, the proof that you resonate is enough that you are ready to chose this path. If you don't resonate its ok to chose evolutionary path as well.
If an animal is awake I define it as conscious, if we think animals don't have a concept of self, I'm not sure that's true. They certainly do things just for themselves. They have a strong survival instinct, they certainly don't want something bad to happen to them. Slam your finger down in front of a running ant. It will freeze and run as fast as it can in the other direction. To me where humans differer is in the complexity of thought obviously but also in the tradgedy that we know and understand that we will die. That's quite a pill. I could be wrong but I don't think any other animal commits suicide (save the lemmings stories). So while we may not be in a survival fo the fittest and constant attack from preditors battle, our own mind is our biggest challenge,
@@AbcDef-tj3zt we can also assume that the opposite of "unconsciousness" is "consciousness" and that's what the another way we can define it somehow
Please add timestamps also
You have to pay extra for that
The "real" problem of consciousness (connecting specific physical states with specific subjective states) is stymied by the simple fact that, since all the "work" in objective terms is and must be done by physical processes, there can be no OBLIGATORY connection to a specific subjective state. Any assignment would be totally arbitrary. The only solution that offers consistency is to see subjectivity as primary, and then see the objective world a set of constructs (appearances) within subjectivity. In such a schema, the material world has no existence outside of appearances. Subjective monism.
Take some mushrooms and come again
eveything you wrote is pretty accurate, except the material world can exist and must exist beside our awareness. The problem is that we have no completed logic to make sense of it nor do we experience it.
Its only essence is by our mind, and just like consciousness can not be reduced to the material (because the material is perfectly symmetrical alone) the material can not be reduced to consciousness (because consciousness requires its differentiated states, and must do so in space and time).
Space and time is both 1. an idea to mind, and 2. substances the mind can not reach in their existent states.
Do you have the sense of how much time passed when waking from sleep or do you know that had to happen that time had passed?
I agree my existence is nothing but one of the infinite 'expressions' of real self, which means I know what one type of vibration only as compared to what other kinds of vibrations are, I know I am solid only in comparison to liquid and gas, I am configuration of certain chemicals only with respect to other chemicals. I am animate object only with respect to inanimate objects. I call something positive charge only with respect to negative charge. I call something good only with respect to something bad. I know i am happy, only because i know there is existence of other emotions, i am son only because i know there can be other relations too in the world. I think only because i know i can live without thinking too.
I exist here only because i know i (Real-self) don't exist here.
My presence is proof that I am absent.
But why only now?? Why i didn't choose to realize Real- self when my awareness was limited to stone? when i was just solid for less dense liquid or gas. Why only now?
Well answer of this question is in question itself
Since u got the idea, it is the proof it is solution. Maybe its not easy solution. Evolution tells we came from Big bang, from physical beings we became chemical beings then we became biological being and then emotional being. Now we are seeking infinity. Yes most of us are doing it in wrong way, by trying to extending their desires, but maybe that is one way. Longer but still a way.
For people who resonate strongly with non-dualism, the proof that you resonate is enough that you are ready to chose this path. If you don't resonate its ok to chose evolutionary path as well.
Make a computer simulate a low res version of the world around it and through a learning process, that uses stored data from previous simulations, use that to continually make simulations of the future and your done. I don't get why this is hard to understand or what I'm missing
how will that computer ever feel joyful for stupid reason like u did when u were 5 yr old
Starts around 9:00
Bernardo Kastrup is the only mind that is missing on the making sense podcast. Opposing views and it would be a great conversation since Sam have misinterpreted Idealism for the longest.
I agree my existence is nothing but one of the infinite 'expressions' of real self, which means I know what one type of vibration only as compared to what other kinds of vibrations are, I know I am solid only in comparison to liquid and gas, I am configuration of certain chemicals only with respect to other chemicals. I am animate object only with respect to inanimate objects. I call something positive charge only with respect to negative charge. I call something good only with respect to something bad. I know i am happy, only because i know there is existence of other emotions, i am son only because i know there can be other relations too in the world. I think only because i know i can live without thinking too.
I exist here only because i know i (Real-self) don't exist here.
My presence is proof that I am absent.
But why only now?? Why i didn't choose to realize Real- self when my awareness was limited to stone? when i was just solid for less dense liquid or gas. Why only now?
Well answer of this question is in question itself
Since u got the idea, it is the proof it is solution. Maybe its not easy solution. Evolution tells we came from Big bang, from physical beings we became chemical beings then we became biological being and then emotional being. Now we are seeking infinity. Yes most of us are doing it in wrong way, by trying to extending their desires, but maybe that is one way. Longer but still a way.
For people who resonate strongly with non-dualism, the proof that you resonate is enough that you are ready to chose this path. If you don't resonate its ok to chose evolutionary path as well.
When you talked about change blindness, makes me think of the "what color is the baby's shirt bro" meme lol I'm not sure that's the same thing.
How many bats have wondered what it is like to be a Sam Harris? 🧐
You should talk to Bernardo Kastrup, that would be a very interesting clash of minds.
You actually can get the answer to the hard problem - revealing it to not be a real problem since it has no real solution. The answer can’t really be said but it can be pointed to: there’s no separation of any kind at all; there’s only the whole, and there is no consciousness. The philosophical zombie is actually a reality, but not of a particular object or person, but of actual phenomena itself! With phenomena itself having no lights on - it’s just an empty infinite appearance with no bounds and therefore no fixed reality.
If a tree falls in a forest...
32:42 I would like to know why Anil finds synchrony unsatisfying.
Hi
I am somewhere in Asia, although my English is not as perfect as your progras are but I listen to theme and learn a lot.
Unfortunately because I am somewhere that I can not send money and porches , I can not listen your programs till the end.
I am sure you know Dr. Michael Newton, I have read two of his books.
Thanks a lot for your wonderful programs anyway
Like others said, Sam, please get Joscha Bach, that would be fascinating.
I love consciousness talk because every fkn human on the earth has no idea what it is………bring it on and let me think
Bernardo Kastrup has some ideas...
I agree my existence is nothing but one of the infinite 'expressions' of real self, which means I know what one type of vibration only as compared to what other kinds of vibrations are, I know I am solid only in comparison to liquid and gas, I am configuration of certain chemicals only with respect to other chemicals. I am animate object only with respect to inanimate objects. I call something positive charge only with respect to negative charge. I call something good only with respect to something bad. I know i am happy, only because i know there is existence of other emotions, i am son only because i know there can be other relations too in the world. I think only because i know i can live without thinking too.
I exist here only because i know i (Real-self) don't exist here.
My presence is proof that I am absent.
But why only now?? Why i didn't choose to realize Real- self when my awareness was limited to stone? when i was just solid for less dense liquid or gas. Why only now?
Well answer of this question is in question itself
Since u got the idea, it is the proof it is solution. Maybe its not easy solution. Evolution tells we came from Big bang, from physical beings we became chemical beings then we became biological being and then emotional being. Now we are seeking infinity. Yes most of us are doing it in wrong way, by trying to extending their desires, but maybe that is one way. Longer but still a way.
For people who resonate strongly with non-dualism, the proof that you resonate is enough that you are ready to chose this path. If you don't resonate its ok to chose evolutionary path as well.
A good starting point is when do you know you’re conscious and what is NOT consciousness.
Thanks
Nobody knows where consciousness comes from and what happens to it after we die.
I agree my existence is nothing but one of the infinite 'expressions' of real self, which means I know what one type of vibration only as compared to what other kinds of vibrations are, I know I am solid only in comparison to liquid and gas, I am configuration of certain chemicals only with respect to other chemicals. I am animate object only with respect to inanimate objects. I call something positive charge only with respect to negative charge. I call something good only with respect to something bad. I know i am happy, only because i know there is existence of other emotions, i am son only because i know there can be other relations too in the world. I think only because i know i can live without thinking too.
I exist here only because i know i (Real-self) don't exist here.
My presence is proof that I am absent.
But why only now?? Why i didn't choose to realize Real- self when my awareness was limited to stone? when i was just solid for less dense liquid or gas. Why only now?
Well answer of this question is in question itself
Since u got the idea, it is the proof it is solution. Maybe its not easy solution. Evolution tells we came from Big bang, from physical beings we became chemical beings then we became biological being and then emotional being. Now we are seeking infinity. Yes most of us are doing it in wrong way, by trying to extending their desires, but maybe that is one way. Longer but still a way.
For people who resonate strongly with non-dualism, the proof that you resonate is enough that you are ready to chose this path. If you don't resonate its ok to chose evolutionary path as well.
Again with the idea of taking comfort in "oblivion". Even though he knows it was skipped over, he seems to imagine it as a persistent state for which one should expect to be peaceful (after death). I hope Sam discusses Generic Subjective Continuity (which he brought up in his last episode, "The Paradox of Death") with someone like Anil, or Tom Clark.
You’ll be as peaceful at death as you were before your were born.
I agree my existence is nothing but one of the infinite 'expressions' of real self, which means I know what one type of vibration only as compared to what other kinds of vibrations are, I know I am solid only in comparison to liquid and gas, I am configuration of certain chemicals only with respect to other chemicals. I am animate object only with respect to inanimate objects. I call something positive charge only with respect to negative charge. I call something good only with respect to something bad. I know i am happy, only because i know there is existence of other emotions, i am son only because i know there can be other relations too in the world. I think only because i know i can live without thinking too.
I exist here only because i know i (Real-self) don't exist here.
My presence is proof that I am absent.
But why only now?? Why i didn't choose to realize Real- self when my awareness was limited to stone? when i was just solid for less dense liquid or gas. Why only now?
Well answer of this question is in question itself
Since u got the idea, it is the proof it is solution. Maybe its not easy solution. Evolution tells we came from Big bang, from physical beings we became chemical beings then we became biological being and then emotional being. Now we are seeking infinity. Yes most of us are doing it in wrong way, by trying to extending their desires, but maybe that is one way. Longer but still a way.
For people who resonate strongly with non-dualism, the proof that you resonate is enough that you are ready to chose this path. If you don't resonate its ok to chose evolutionary path as well.
@@Face_The_Voidyou completely misunderstood what he is saying there is no such thing as a self. Death is an illusion because “you” never existed in the first place
@@kaushikkam2596 you’re trying too hard. You does exist, I exist right now. I may not exist as I feel I do but ‘you’ or whatever assertion you place within that does exist
@@Face_The_Void I agree with you I didn’t mean it that way. Meant there’s no singular self that exists between life and death . There are multiple selfs that are selfs for a moment
On The Big Bang Theory Amy told Sheldon something like "studying the brain was more important than physics, because without a brain we could not understand physics."
Without understanding physics, we couldn't study the brain which is necessary to study physics which is necessary to study the brain which is...
@@PlayNiceFolks
😆
@@PlayNiceFolks
So studying the brain is recursive?
The Big Bang Theory was a minstrel show, but about intelligent people instead. Just say no to smartface.
@@encyclopath
Comparing Big Bang Theory to blackface? I understand it had some stereotypes.
Next: Kapil Gupta, please!
The sad thing we are not anywhere forward…. But to say it is any way not for our undergaurdians to push forward ????
There is (must be) a solution to "What is consciousness ?". Two epistemological 'puzzle pieces' are 1) thought is physically made of forces flowing through the brain's neural structures and sub-systems that include loops, comparitors, differencing and summing, and 2) existence is always and exactly now (the duration of every Now is exactly zero). This is why when being in states of flow, the sense of time disappears. Feeling conscious is 'simply' experiencing those changing, merging, and opposing forces.
After experiencing this conclusion, and with practice, one can step into this knowable state by simply choosing to BE. The causal continuum of forces (that is the entire universe) is just running; it cannot do otherwise. Enjoy the ride.
Many people use consciousness to prove that God exists. Naturalism always wins. If we are honest we will accept that naturalism is correct. We never see things like a supernatural power lifting a book. We are able explain everything using science. Including things like our attitudes towards life.
💪💪💪💪💪
As a presumptuous layman, is it not possible that consciousness is remote from the physical brain like a radio station, whose programming is captured by a radio set to the frequency of the radio station? So our brain is the filter and not does not actually give rise to consciousness locally.
Putting a patient under anesthesia is analogous to turning off their radio. However, on turning the radio back on, the radio station programming commences again.
I accept the science that points to Evolution shaping our brain as a necessary filter from most of Reality as we as animals could not have survived otherwise. Full reality would have overwhelmed us preventing us from successfully surviving.
Are we just going to ignore his fist name? Ok just needed to make sure.
i giggled a bit before i became aware of how stupid i am :P
When pronounced correctly (Uh-nil), doesn't really come off that way.
Could our conscience be the universe's way to record our life's data? Encoded in every atom that was ever us.
I think most chairs a re counsciousnes I mean the wooden ones !😂😂🤭
Maybe I’m just being a trickster
The thing I find special about the TNGS is the Darwin series of automata created at the Neurosciences Institute by Dr. Edelman and his colleagues in the 1990's and 2000's. These machines perform in the real world, not in a restricted simulated world, and display convincing physical behavior indicative of higher psychological functions necessary for consciousness, such as perceptual categorization, memory, and learning. They are based on realistic models of the parts of the biological brain that the theory claims subserve these functions. The extended TNGS allows for the emergence of consciousness based only on further evolutionary development of the brain areas responsible for these functions, in a parsimonious way. No other research I've encountered is anywhere near as convincing.
Aren't consciousness and awareness interchangeable? One cannot exist without the other.
No consciousness is the same as "self-awareness".
@@SurfMastery-kz6je --
Then, let me ask you: Isn't 'self-awareness' connected to 'awareness?' One cannot be self-aware without being aware.
Good discussion. Read Anil's book, though I was disappointed that even with Indian roots, he rarely mentioned (one liners only in a chapter) the extensive knowledge and rich discussions that are part of Indian Advaita Vedanta/Upanishadic and Buddhist philosophy for ages! (Sam has clearly mentioned and appreciated them in his book Waking Up).
Rather Anil talks about the western philosophers and some scientists work that came much later (maybe this helps sell more copies!). I am soory, but i consider that either cowardice or ignorance (tho i doubt highly he hasnt come across such highly rational knowledge base) And even then his book is just okay. Some decent explanations, tho trying hard to portray that he is breaking some amazing new grounds by talking what he terms as the 'real' problem compared to hard or easy problems!! Nothing that new or groundbreaking IMHO
Ironically, these smart people try to show they are seeking the most crucial questions of being human, but still cant leave the ego of me, myself as if they are finding something extraordinary for the first time (when there is so much disconnect among these experts themeselves) and not even referencing some of the great discussion that has come before from eastern philosophy!
maybe talk to b. alan wallace as he is and he knows actual genuine practitioners who remain fully lucid for the entirety of their sleep cycle, others who require no sleep, and even some very advanced ones approaching the end of the path who are frequently entering and exiting with superhuman lucidity the very subtle mind of death
discussion would be much more fruitful than these endlessly repeating physicalist dialogue trees
An interesting discussion, but I disagree with Anil Seth on several points. I know I'm no one to be disagreeing with a leading scientist in his field, but consider my arguments on their own merit disregarding the fact that I am a laymen.
First, he makes the statement that we know anesthesia turns off consciousness or pauses it. This is not the case. We don't know that. All we know is that once we come out of that state it seems as if there is a total blank in our memory of that time. It is entirely plausible that consciousness is active and simply a) not receiving any data i.e. the information processing centers of the brain are off so there's nothing but not because consciousness is "off" or b) conscious experience continues without being remembered, or in other words your memory is "off".
Second, he makes another unwarranted assumption about consciousness, which is that it is utilitarian in nature. This can be seen at multiple points in the talk, particularly the part regarding philosophical zombies and the part where they talk about what other creatures are conscious. For example he makes the point that certain animals (can't remember which) are probably conscious because they exhibit behaviors also exhibited by us, the only creature we can be 100% sure is conscious. The example he gave was applying pain relief when in pain. This assumes that without this (seemingly) unified sphere of conscious experience such a behavior would not be possible, that without it one part of the brain which receives the pain signals from the nerves would not be able to inform the other parts of the brain that could take appropriate action. That these latter parts somehow inform themselves from the "newsfeed" of consciousness to act. There is absolutely no reason to make this assumption whatsoever. It is not only possible but trivial to construct a simple 2bit information processing system that could react to stimuli the same way a living organism does, for example pull it's hand or whatever appendage we give it from a burning stove if its sensors indicate potentially damaging changes happening. Yet I don't think anyone would argue that such a system feels pain.
I believe the utilitarian view of consciousness stems from the illusion of an acting agent that we humans suffer from. If you think you're actually doing things then of course it makes sense that having all this information at your disposal is crucial. However if it is no longer the case that you believe yourself to be an agent that HAS a conscious experience but realize that whatever "you" are is just part of that same conscious experience and has no control over it or the behavior of the body but simply takes ownership of whatever the body does, then the notion that consciousness is necessary to operate makes no sense.
Unfortunately because of these unwarranted assumptions that Anil Seth makes about the nature of consciousness I believe he is misguided in his pursuit and will probably not accomplish what he is trying. I wish Sam pushed back a bit more on these points because having listened to him talk on the subject I believe he would likely feel similar to myself about them. Nonetheless a great conversation that I am thankful to both of them for having.
I agree my existence is nothing but one of the infinite 'expressions' of real self, which means I know what one type of vibration only as compared to what other kinds of vibrations are, I know I am solid only in comparison to liquid and gas, I am configuration of certain chemicals only with respect to other chemicals. I am animate object only with respect to inanimate objects. I call something positive charge only with respect to negative charge. I call something good only with respect to something bad. I know i am happy, only because i know there is existence of other emotions, i am son only because i know there can be other relations too in the world. I think only because i know i can live without thinking too.
I exist here only because i know i (Real-self) don't exist here.
My presence is proof that I am absent.
But why only now?? Why i didn't choose to realize Real- self when my awareness was limited to stone? when i was just solid for less dense liquid or gas. Why only now?
Well answer of this question is in question itself
Since u got the idea, it is the proof it is solution. Maybe its not easy solution. Evolution tells we came from Big bang, from physical beings we became chemical beings then we became biological being and then emotional being. Now we are seeking infinity. Yes most of us are doing it in wrong way, by trying to extending their desires, but maybe that is one way. Longer but still a way.
For people who resonate strongly with non-dualism, the proof that you resonate is enough that you are ready to chose this path. If you don't resonate its ok to chose evolutionary path as well.
@@AbcDef-tj3zt You don't choose anything. You don't do anything. Knowing is simply what is taking the form of knowing. When next you "know" something, notice what that's like. Knowing is a sort of contraction, a holding on to something. It is what is holding on to itself. As long as you "know" the dream of me is still happening.
@@muresandani Agreed
You should interview Muhhumad Hijab
Remember, the dao that can be described is not the real dao
I would like to point out a dissonance in your beliefs Sam, if you don't disagree that mammals are concsious, you would be a militant vegan. I think this beliefs is somehow compartmentalized and is prevented from fully integrating. Many people also realized that their slaves just as conscious as they are, and still didn't think to change their ways. I'm saying this out of deep respect and an acknowledgement that we all have compartments in our philosophies that maintain some convenient incommensurability.
I agree my existence is nothing but one of the infinite 'expressions' of real self, which means I know what one type of vibration only as compared to what other kinds of vibrations are, I know I am solid only in comparison to liquid and gas, I am configuration of certain chemicals only with respect to other chemicals. I am animate object only with respect to inanimate objects. I call something positive charge only with respect to negative charge. I call something good only with respect to something bad. I know i am happy, only because i know there is existence of other emotions, i am son only because i know there can be other relations too in the world. I think only because i know i can live without thinking too.
I exist here only because i know i (Real-self) don't exist here.
My presence is proof that I am absent.
But why only now?? Why i didn't choose to realize Real- self when my awareness was limited to stone? when i was just solid for less dense liquid or gas. Why only now?
Well answer of this question is in question itself
Since u got the idea, it is the proof it is solution. Maybe its not easy solution. Evolution tells we came from Big bang, from physical beings we became chemical beings then we became biological being and then emotional being. Now we are seeking infinity. Yes most of us are doing it in wrong way, by trying to extending their desires, but maybe that is one way. Longer but still a way.
For people who resonate strongly with non-dualism, the proof that you resonate is enough that you are ready to chose this path. If you don't resonate its ok to chose evolutionary path as well.
Do you know the travel of th or life,
Could probably make a lot of money with a video stream on CZcams.
I quoted sam on another channel recently (in agreement with sam), and was hounded for being an islamophobe. Fun times out there people.
Well, he is a blatant islamophobe after all
@@kazzz2765 based on what
@@kazzz2765 You say that as if being aware of the potential for a set of ideas to lead to harmful behaviors, or noticing that we have seen this play out in the real world many times is some sort of flaw. Examining the word "Islamophobe" pretty much defeats one's own argument and reveals their biases as soon as it is unironically used against someone.
What was the Sam quote I'm curious
@@NeilMortimer There's a common and academic understandings of the word islamophobia. Sam's ideas align to the definition, pretty much perfectly. I didn't posit any judgement statement of any sort, and I don't care to have an argument on CZcams, partly because i don't have enough understanding of the topic. It is perfectly clear that he fits the definition very well, though.
And then if the crowd would want to understand you
Indra”s net
I don’t think so
Rehashed half baked conversation hidden behind a pay wall...
Lol, I want to defend him but it's just true
Idealism postulates consciousness as the primary substrate of reality. It’s clearly the most coherent and plausible theory of metaphysics. I simply don’t understand why brainy scientists like Seth persevere with their inelegant attempts to see matter as an ontological primary.
Consciousness is nothing more noting you/others can think, not just think based on sensory perception. All critters can think, but few think about their thinking or that of others. Those that can, are conscious, and they typically can also "read" what others are thinking, like dogs and crows, etc. And no matter what Sam argues, if others don't control your thinking and choices, you have free will.
It has relative reality.
You have “will” but why attach “free” to it. It’s not free of anything, it’s always subject to countless influences that you’re consciously and unconsciously aware of. So no, you haven’t dismantled Sam’s free will argument just by saying “no matter what he says”. What an arrogant thing to say
Why rebroadcast?? Has he found out the secret??? He should share
Their is so much of a change of your talk!! Your meaning … your expectations of anyone understanding you…. And then will they give a fk that they want to understand you
Any word that isn’t spoke about will alienate … not your audience….. but the people…..
I like the definition of consciousness from Buddha years ago: I quote it here
SN 22.79, the Buddha distinguishes consciousness in the following manner:
"And why do you call it 'consciousness'? Because it cognizes, thus it is called consciousness. What does it cognize? It cognizes what is sour, bitter, pungent, sweet, alkaline, non-alkaline, salty, & unsalty. Because it cognizes, it is called consciousness.
Being anesthetized is like being dead from a consciousness point of view.
How do you know
@@Face_The_Void if you died while under you'd never know.
Let's go Brandon!
Anyone suffer from sleap anea and your wife finally gets you to see a sleep Dr. and they give you this big ass CPAP machine to lug around and make you look like an idiot for the rest if your life? The day I got that thing was that last day I dreamed or remembered a dream. I kinda miss that. But also it is a straight up teleportation device just like anesthesia. I put it on, fall asleep in 3 minutes tops, wake up from multiple load alarms which now everyone hates. But I feel great it have never woken up in the middle of the night. You litereally blink like surgery and it's the next day. Does anyone else experience this with CPAPs?
Am I the living Sun of God? Let's take God out of it. Am I the living Sun? Am I the living Sun of the source of creation? Do you believe in energy? Does the energy of the sun live inside of you? Eat of My Flesh and drink of My Blood I am the living Sun of God Amun also known as the source of creation. And with every bite you take you are eating the sun of God, creator of the universe. How could I not be the Living Sun?
Sam Harris? 🤪
For the lay person!!!!!
You are supported by people that are on the fkn road
Have you ever been with working class people???,,,
I used to think consciousness is an illusion but it just occurred to me it may be a complex brain race condition.
The condition only manifests itself when you use the word consciousness to describe the contents of the brain.
I put Sam Harris in the same category as Richard Dawkins. I watched an interview with Richard Dawkins once where he was asked this question: Can nothing create something? In order to defend his theory his response was: “Absolutely! Nothing created everything!” He then proceeded to try to define nothing 🤣.
I really can’t think of a bigger waste of time than to listen to an atheist purporting to have all the answers.
the more i listen to conversations like this the more i start thinking they way Sam thinks about free will; about consciousness. The way they talk about their theories and such all seems illusory and like just word salad. This idea that "there must be more, we cant just be machines with cause and effect explaining everything." seems more ridiculous to me evry day
I agree my existence is nothing but one of the infinite 'expressions' of real self, which means I am solid only in comparison to liquid and gas, I am configuration of certain chemicals only with respect to other chemicals. I am animate object only with respect to inanimate objects. I call something positive charge only with respect to negative charge. I call something good only with respect to something bad. I know i am happy, only because i know there is existence of other emotions, i am son only because i know there can be other relations too in the world. I think only because i know i can live without thinking too.
I exist here only because i know i (Real-self) don't exist here.
My presence is proof that I am absent.
But why only now?? Why i didn't choose to realize Real- self when my awareness was limited to stone? when i was just solid for less dense liquid or gas. Why only now?
Well answer of this question is in question itself
Since u got the idea, it is the proof it is solution. Maybe its not easy solution. Evolution tells we came from Big bang, from physical beings we became chemical beings then we became biological being and then emotional being. Now we are seeking infinity. Yes most of us are doing it in wrong way, by trying to extending their desires, but maybe that is one way. Longer but still a way.
For people who resonate strongly with non-dualism, the proof that you resonate is enough that you are ready to chose this path. If you don't resonate its ok to chose evolutionary path as well.
you're simply prone to being dominated by appeals of authority
in real life, there is nothing in science about fat protein carbs and electricity ie. your brain producing or allowing for the emergence of subjectivity
also sams position on free will is a typical and very common misunderstanding of buddhist notself/noself.
@@5piles Sam’s position on Free Will isn’t premised on any Buddhist tenant (although a case can be made for it). You can come up with a case for no Free Will without any reference to Buddhism.
@@catbranchman01 not premised on it but he commonly refers back to it
buddhism is unique in asserting mind and mental factors such as the function of intention, while denying something independent of mind and body (ie. something independent of persons) that is the essential defining characteristic of those persons such as a soul
Edelman did not contribute anything significant to neuroscience
Anil Seth has a certain direction.. like all consciousness thinkers…….do we all need to have gone to university…I think they are all so lacking of information that guessing is sadly the best we have got
Debate on consciousness is purely conjecture you don’t need a uni degree to share your opinion. With or without a degree you are just as qualified to share your views on consciousness as anyone who has a piece of paper with writing on it to justify their opinions as more important
I agree my existence is nothing but one of the infinite 'expressions' of real self, which means I know what one type of vibration only as compared to what other kinds of vibrations are, I know I am solid only in comparison to liquid and gas, I am configuration of certain chemicals only with respect to other chemicals. I am animate object only with respect to inanimate objects. I call something positive charge only with respect to negative charge. I call something good only with respect to something bad. I know i am happy, only because i know there is existence of other emotions, i am son only because i know there can be other relations too in the world. I think only because i know i can live without thinking too.
I exist here only because i know i (Real-self) don't exist here.
My presence is proof that I am absent.
But why only now?? Why i didn't choose to realize Real- self when my awareness was limited to stone? when i was just solid for less dense liquid or gas. Why only now?
Well answer of this question is in question itself
Since u got the idea, it is the proof it is solution. Maybe its not easy solution. Evolution tells we came from Big bang, from physical beings we became chemical beings then we became biological being and then emotional being. Now we are seeking infinity. Yes most of us are doing it in wrong way, by trying to extending their desires, but maybe that is one way. Longer but still a way.
For people who resonate strongly with non-dualism, the proof that you resonate is enough that you are ready to chose this path. If you don't resonate its ok to chose evolutionary path as well.
Please bring an economic satirist comedians view?????
Calling Sam Harris "dummy" lol quite a priviledge.
Anil Seth and Sam Harris wouldn’t know a working class person of it talked to them in a pub
Sam is beginning to understand. Maybe, I have hope.
The hard problem is hard because Daniel is getting old and his influence is weaning
Never forget Sam’s TDS, it was a thing of beauty to witness
tds?
@@Jack-yq6ui trump derangement syndrome
@@Jack-yq6ui Trump Derangement Syndrome. It’s what people from Trumpistan diagnose every critic of Trump with, even when the criticism is completely accurate
ITR, the gift that keeps on giving. LOL!
Is it really that hard to get your minds around it?
Consciousness is an emergent property, it occurs in the zombie itself. it is an ontological primary that requires other primaries, just like the other way around.
It can not itself be reducable to the causal reality it emerges within, but it can likewise not happen without it. That is not a paradox, it is only a paradox if you expect either to be any more true then the other. RECOGNIZE how that is an assumption by your silly mind.
Why is it that everyone needs that all they ever saw could be reducable to a singular metric? Language itself is a singular metric, and you can try and try but nope, i't wont work.
There is a difference between recursive consciousness and animal impulse, the latter of which is the steady state of humanity. recursion happens seemingly infinite trough finite time as A contained in A gets weaker and weaker and dissapears only to show up again briefly. The human intelect has the capability of capturing existence in its own mind because existence is reduced in terms of MIND, and in the blink of an eye we are aware of our own intelectual construction of what we think is the universe mistaking it for a direct pathway to the material.
Such a pathway would be death, and at all point in which you are a breathing you experience mind and mind only, mind is more then true consciousness, mind is in part reducable to minor physical substances by incredulity and perfectly so.
Mind is like a substance Y, and the universe as X can run it course as though Y never were present at all, yet the only essence of X could only ever be reducable to Y while the existence of X eternally different then Y.
And yes, if you understood me properly: the dual parts are mutually incomplete without eachother, and that pretty much resolves everything good bye, it means there is no absolute beginning as the alternative of nothingness is a completed idea within mind.
What is funny is that because we are all equally incapable of 'touching' the material as we are the nothingness that can't exist some of us mistake the former for the latter.
In terms of the material you do no exist, literally.
Which is why what is present to you now is an ontological primary as it can not be denied, deny it means confirming it.
In some sense you can say therefore that you are only material. You can be only mind, you can be both and you can be neither. Your fantasy sets your limits.
"Rebroadcast." Not getting the views you're accustomed to getting, huh Sam.
I think it was because Seth just dropped his book recently