Are Subwoofers Important in 2 Channel HiFi Audio? The REL S/510.
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- čas přidán 11. 01. 2023
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Today I review the REL S/510 Subwoofer and give you my honest thoughts about what this did for my system. I have disliked subs in the past and have not used one for 30+ years in my stereo 2 channel audio system.
Will this change when I try the REL? Find out my thoughts after spending over a month with the REL S/510!
Enjoy!
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I was a professional drummer for 10-years. Professional-level recording studios and stages both have subwoofers to round out the bottom of the sound. A lot of your complaints are, interestingly, based on how albums are mixed and mastered differently. That's why some songs are boomy and some songs aren't. Beyond that and beyond personal listening tastes, boominess can be caused by tuning frequency of the enclosure, the size of the sub, or even the power being driven to it. If you have a 12" sub in a large ported enclosure, running 400w, it's going to boom. If you have an 8" sub is a small sealed enclosure, running off of 60w, it's going to be tighter and probably fit better with a home stereo.
Bass isn't just for bassheads with over-sized car stereo systems. Having a subwoofer is actually how you get that studio-accurate reproduction you're looking for. You just need to find that one that works for your personal tastes.
Which is your favourite sub
I'm using an audio research amplifier with a carver true subwoofer which has been around for a while. I use my XP 22 second output into the sub and I have been able to adjust the balance between my Maggie 3.6 R's and the Carver to where the subwoofer is totally invisible but operational. It does make a substantial positive difference especially with Magies.
Your experience in setting up a sub is very much like mine was.
If you are thinking about adding subwoofers to your hi-fi stereo, I would *strongly* consider getting an acoustic measuring microphone, such as the miniDSP UMIK-1. Yes you can tune by ear, but the microphone takes all the guesswork out of it, especially when you run a couple of subwoofers since you will want to change the phase and volume settings until you nail the right combination.
I’m glad you’re enjoying your sub !! It ABSOLUTELY makes a difference. I have Klipsch Cornwall iv’s, they go down to I think 34hz. I have two REL S812 subs with them and I can say with confidence it DOES make a difference. You would think a speaker that big makes deep bass….. and it does, but the extra you get especially with TWO is well worth the investment if your room can accommodate them. Especially when tuned properly. I used one for a while. Two is awesomer 😅 CHEERS 🍻
I run REL dual subs and it brought an enourmous improvement. I started with a single sub but when I added another one it was amazing.
I am going to have to add a 2nd one as soon as I can! Thanks and enjoy!
Same here, I ran single REL sub for 6 months, then I added 2nd REL and I was blown away by improvement it made! Highly recommended 👌
I have dual REL 1508's with my Cornwall IV's and when blended correctly... It makes the CW's sound massive. I would never have a system without great subwoofers.
@@jasonhodges6113 Im running a pair of 1510s per REL's prescription with my CWIVs. Previously just had a KEF Cube 12b. The difference is overwhelmingly fantastic.
@@TheJohnnyNormal Same advice I got from REL, but 1510's didn't exist at the time. I'm really happy with my setup.
It’s great to hear a review from someone who is skeptical about the device, but open to a change of mind. I think this might be one of the most relevant reviews of subwoofer performance out there. I’ve found the REL sub to be a dream for my system. Nice review!
I’m using REL T/7x. The High level input crossover connected to McIntosh MA 252 hybrid integ amp & KLH model 5. The mono low level input connected to Emotiva BasX PT 1 pre amp , Onkyo integra M-504 power amp & Tekton lore. The sound is amazing.
You perfectly described my experience with REL. When you finally get them dialed in, it improves everything. When you turn them off, everything falls apart.
They mustn't be that great speakers if everything falls apart without some subs :)
Just adjusted my Rel to the same setting tune you have and love it. Thanks for going through all the hassle of tuning! Haha
You don't leave the ground floating on a PASS amp. You utilize the white ground terminal on the back of the amp. Try the high level again.
I also suggest upgrading the high level cable to the Rel baseline blue cable makes a huge difference.
My Focal Sopra SW 1000 (42 kgs) complimenting a pair of Electra 1008 BE2 transformed the sound quality and lifted the overall listening experience to a whole new level. It just blends in perfectly!
I added an Edifier T5 subwoofer to go with my Edifier R1280DB speakers. After a bit of setting up the crossover and positioning the sound stage and low frequencies are amazingly clean.
Once tuned in it really does open things up 🙂
I recently purchased a REL T7X and while it hasn’t really been dialed in properly yet I am planning to order a second. Your review just solidifies the reasons why REL is who they are.
Can't wait for REL new product line this year 🤩
Best audio upgrade I ever made was adding a second sub to my system. 2.2 FTW!
Added a REL t5i to my totem mites. Beautiful
Sub not only can give you more bass, but it can also deal with the room's dips and peaks, before I added sub to my system, I had severe dips in the 35 to 40hz region, and a bit less severe on the 45hz, and a big peak on around 55hz, but now with the sub not only I have bass flat down to 30hz, but also the 35 40 and 45hz are evenly balanced and the 55hz peak is much better, of course you will always have peaks and dips in a normal living room, but a sub can surely help.
So your main speakers are lacking then?
Congrats on the conversion! ❤️ Strongly in the camp that if you don’t have subs, you likely need one or more before upgrading any of your gear 😊 I had the opposite experience with the low level connection of the t/7i, clearly got the best results with the high level connection.
The Fleetwood would probably pair very well with the Mini Sub meant for the OMA Mini. They went with a high efficiency 15. I don't have that budget but have always loved my Klipsch RSW-15 whether it was mated to La Scalas, KHorns, CF-4s or 8" full range drivers.
Subs are hard to integrate correctly. I found using an active crossover system with low level to be the most seamless solution.
My sub was a revelation when I added it, effortless bass that digs deep is almost nirvana.
I run 2 JL Audio Fathom F112 V2 subs with their CR-1 crossover and a pair of ATC SCM50A speakers.Fantastic subs 👍
oof that’s gotta sound flippin awesome
More than impressed with my dual SVS pb4000. Setup and eq are key- use Audyssey xt32 with sub eq ht and the results are great. These things are well controlled, as fast as you need them to be and go down to 13Hz if you ever need them to.
You need to be able to adjust high and lowpass, phase and slope. My Velodyne DD 15+ has these features but it is very expensive.
Glad your system improved. Enjoy.
I use my stereo Rel t5i subwoofers on my Sonus Faber standmount speakers.. only to make them go full range of course 😁
Kind of hard to go back to conventional subwoofers after experiencing high performance rel subwoofers
A subwoofer can be very useful in asymmetrical room settings. My living room does not allow perfect placement of the main speakers with respect to the room modes. The Kef subwoofer is very effective in my setting.
Had 2 REL Q 100E since early the 2000s, home cinema stayed basic spec but the subs stayed active. I connect via the speaker binding posts.
The idea is quality subs (we spend 100s to 1000s on cables!), integration and placement. Once those are achieved, you will never want to go back, at least in my experience.
Yep. Even with my much lower priced system (Arcam SA10 integrated amp, Wharfedale Denton 80th anniversary speakers), an affordable REL (HT 1003) has greatly improved the sound quality, providing more soundstaging and musical fullness. No thump, just great music.
I have those speakers too and think they don't "lack" anything ... now I wonder if I should give it a try, but the 70s Yamaha receiver powering them doesn't have a sub-out ...
@@michaelschafer6379 I'm using the REL through the pre-out on my integrated.
I recently upgraded to a second subwoofer. Fantastic!!! But I use it with a Lyngdorf Amp which has a fantastic bass management including roomcorrection (RoomPerfect). This makes a huge difference, because it can handle room problems very, very well. It also allows to decide on the crossover frequency including a highpass! This provides headroom for the main speakers.
Is that possible with two subs? And do you change the subs volume on the subs or on the Lyngdorf app?
I added a subwoofer to my system two years ago and I will never live without it you also have to be aware vibrations in your electronics so play around with that also
Sometimes having a sub can come handy. Like in our living room I would've ran into trouble if L/R would do the subbass. I would have nasty phase cancellations where we sit. But by putting the subwoofer to another position and tweaking it a little with the phase switch a not so perfect room became very enjoyable to listen to music. :)
There’s a chance you need to lower the crossover and turn up the volume. I’ve done similar setup as you at first, and in a year or so, I learned that after changing that balance, the sound went cleaner. Maybe it’s the reason you were getting that boominess with the high level connection.
I would audition some servo subs like Rythmik or open baffle servo subwoofers like GR Research. Detailed bass that will disappear in your system. Some of us with bookshelf speakers that have low end limitations need that 35hz and lower.
I have a stereo pair of S812’s and can say it’s the best addition to my system. I did start out with one, and really didn’t see a big benefit when I added the second. Soundstage was the biggest improvement- just amazing.
I recommend studying Dr. Earl Geddes's study on multiple subwoofers in a small room. It turns out that 2-3 subs spread across the room dimensions negate largely the negative effects of typical hard walled listening rooms. Standing waves and group delay problems are reduced to minimum. For best effect some of the subs must sometimes be delayed and/or switched to reverse phase...
Do you run these subs in stereo or are both in mono ? What have you best results ? Thanks
The high level input connector type is Speakon commonly used in PA speakers
I have a pair of 1990 Klipsch La Scalas. Great midrange but a little lacking in the low end. I added a Klipsch SW 12 ii subwoofer. Great addition.
I run two Bowers and Wilkins DB4S subs, they have a built in room EQ function, run from an App, it removes the resonance at the necessary frequecy ranges through a process of a 9 stage sound test, it makes an incrediable difference, gone is the boom from the subs, in comes the clear and defined bass, they are worth a try 🙂
I’d feel like something major was missing if I didn’t have my SVS sub with my new KEF Q350/CXA81 stereo setup. Took lots of trial and error to tame it though- as subs can so easily be overpowering. -13 db overall volume, Low passed at 74 Hz with 6 db slope, and a para eq taking off another -1 db at 20 hz w/ a very gentle Q slope …and finally adjusted phase to perfect the blend.
My only measuring equipment are my ears, so it’s the best I could do with my Cambridge amp lacking bass management. Sounds amazing with all genres; especially classical/jazz.
Welcome to the other side 🙊
When you get two subs, may I suggest trying both stereo and mono setup with them. 😊
I have a rell strata 3 with a pair of tannoy Cheviots, a little jadis el 38 amp. The combination is wonderful to my ears.
Guy buys a Ferrari, budgets Walmart tires for it, tires can’t keep up with Ferrari, thinks all tires are terrible. Makes sense.
last year i build 2 rythmic servo subs 12 inch. These are as flat as possible from 15Hz - 100Hz and super fast. But still, you need to correct your room amplification with PEQ (like minidsp). My room had a peak of 15 db at 33Hz in between the 30 & 40 Hz. This screws up your bass sound and sounds fatiguing. As soon you got the bass output flat on your listening position you can turn the bass up without room boom.
Bottom line : subs need room correction. At these low frequencies your room will resonate the crap out of a dominating frequency.
No question about it. Not even debatable. A mediocre sub (provided it has enough output) with correction will outperform a high-end sub every day of the week
I have the S5, the 510 predecessor. Who does not have a sub in his system, is missing out. A lot
My sub use has been driven by the sort of music I listen to: Some orchestral and organ music just isn't going to sound "full" without a sub or two. And since I'm a life member of the bad back club, I use the SVS Micro 3000. No, it's not monstrously big, but it goes down to 23hz (or so), which handles most of my needs. I am looking forward to running dual subs in a few years, but that's going to take some serious saving.
Would love to hear what it does to a Mahler Symphony
KLH Model 5's here, and two SVS SB3000 subs... Makes a world of difference if set up properly. Placement is key.
that sound must be muscular AF
your stereo gets hi-fives at the gym
@@WeeWeeJumbo i have two sb3000 and yes what you said is right. go muscle up or you dont hear it at all
REL makes great small footprint subs but I would strongly recommend to look at the Monolith M-10 v2 sub. It comes with a high density foam port plug which really helps for music and if you remove it, it really helps for HT listening. For the price (it frequently goes on sale for $579) I don't think there's a better subwoofer on the market.
Comparatively flabby wub wub sound.
I made the decision that a sub (now have 2 Rel S8/12) was part of my system from the word go, as I have quite a large Organ music collection (6/700on CD, MD and DAT)
I'm ran dual, dual (4) subs since Infinity 2 BU1 and 2 BU2 sub and RS1 days was my first stereo when 16-18 years old .... I used to throw little get-togethers when I was in high school no one seen anything like it before only BOSE people seen then.
I became the popular kid everyone wanted to come over and blast music 😂😂🤷🏼♂️🇨🇦🍀♥️
I tried the cheapest REL subwoofer for my small office space (8x12) but because I have the Buchardt S400 MK2's, it was like the sub was not there at all. The Buchardt's have a lower frequency range, so I think I would have to spend much more on a REL sub to get any benefit. I sent the REL back, and only tried the LFE connection.
Was that the Tzero? If so you probably should have went t5x
I have dual Rythmik F12's with my Buchardt S400 MKII's they are a phenomenal match.
Are you going to keep it or explore other subs?
Subs make a huge difference in sound, and I tell that to my Rock -&- Roll friends all of the time! People who usually cut out the low frequencies in their mix!
The biggest difference you get with a Sub is when you are watching movies like Action movies (especially THX or Dolby). You can really feel the rumbling...
I have my S/510 running with a pair of Magnepan 1.7i panels and the key for the set-up is the inclusion of an active crossover. Check out Sublime Acoustic, I have the K231 unit and a brand new model drops this Friday. Using that as the frequency "traffic cop" is an absolute game changer. You'll toss out that special spade connector that REL provides and never look back.
If you don't use high level connection, you may want to try dual active like Martin Logan BalancedForce 210 or 212. Active/Active maybe faster and more accurate than Active/Passive. I run a pair of ML 13A with 2 BF210. I downloaded the custom crossover filter from ML and installed it on the Sub specifically for the model 13A. They blend perfectly together and sound amazing. Plus Anthem Room Correction makes it much easier for rooms that have issues with bass. No need Subwoofer Craw, just place them behind the main speakers in the corners. ARC will get the right level. By the way, I have used Rel T7/i, T9/i, T7/x, Carbon Limited with high level connection, but I could not get the bass to sound right in my room.
Martin logans are awesome! They use a quality subwoofer. Not like some companies using stamped baskets and small coils charging hi prices
Pair of Rel carbon specials, JLA cr-1 crossover, magnepan 20.7s magical
It is a shame you lost all those years you can never get back. I started early on in subwoofer design and worked my way up as the years went by. Can never picture my life without one.
I Run two of these bad boys, and I’m in love!
Did you do a burn in on the sub?
Stream Nature boy by Art Pepper it will change your world😊 the upright bass go so low that you need a sub to really enjoy that song. Thanks for that review.
Try listening to John Williamson - True Blue, its mainly guitar and vocal with the Sub on, than for giggles turn the sub off.... amazing how much the sub adds to make the vocals come alive and more natural.. plus its am amazing track... 😉🤘
Looking at a pair of rel s510 or rythmik f12 se servos. I could also kick the tires on the gr research open baffle subs. Thoughts on any of these pairing with Maggie 1.7is ?
I have dual Rythmik F12's with the Buchardt S400 MKII speakers, they are amazing subs. You can buy two for the price of one S510. Not saying the Rel isn't a phenomenal sub, I doubt very much that its better than two F12's. Can't relate to the Maggie's however.
Some thought with different speakers, like klipsch heresy ?
I tried the same sub with electrostatic. People in forums all said, that REL works great with electrostatics, but I never godt it to work. Like you, I did it with both type of connection, following REL's recommendations. I have a sub output at the preamp. But I never got an extension that sounded natural. Maybe I missed something in the setup or maybe electrostatics are too fast.
Maybe try a Rythmic.
Very interesting. I had no problems integrating my S/812 pair with Electromotion ESL's using high level. What electronics are you running?
I’d love a review of GR Research open baffle subwoofers
What about two or even three RSL Speedwoofer 10s with miniDSP bass management. Can three cheaper subs with DSP outperform one more expensive sub like REL?
So much signal processing through your audio chain
You said adding this sub was one of the two best additions to your system, what was the other? The PSM156?
Yes indeed. The PSM 156 did wonders for my system. It’s the one thing I can not do without but that doesn’t mean it would be the same for all. It cured my electrical issues full stop. No other conditioner did that, even at 3X the cost. Love the 156 and their power cables.
just for the sake of trying everything that you can try, I suggest that you hook up the second sub using the low level connection and leaving the other connection as it is. This might not make theoretical sense, but I hope that you try it anyways.
Used to use a subwoofer, then I switched over to a set of "The Smaller Advents". No more need for subwoofer :D
could you try this with la scala?
Do you think floor / wall material affect to sound quality especially subwoofer?
Yes it does!
What happened to the Luxman??
Curious how you decided on the S510 vs say the S812 sub.
Bass guitars, male voices, tubas and kick drums need love too.
i had a 500 watts subwoffer plus 200 watts per 5 chanel home theatre setup thanks to that i get coops called like 15 times get fined now i use only speakers or headphones speaker amp maximum 100 watts per chanel and stereo.
2-Rel Carbon Specials, JLA CR-1, 20.7s,
When you get a second make a comparison of one sub just playing Left, and one sub just playing Right, vs both subs playing L+R. Since there is little spacial info in bass signals, the advantages of 2 subs playing same the (L+R) mono signal may improve the smoothness of response.
How do you hook it up as mono if using the high level connection?
Deep Bass thudding & felt through the floor possibly gives you the feeling of watching live bands in a club with it thudding the floor but there is no clarity in bass its more of a sensation when you use them. I prefer not to but when I had a surround sound for the TV it was great for rumbling tanks or explosions.
Wonderful and honest opinion. Thanks for your efforts!
My listening room is 12' x 21' which I have just come to realize is very close to the Golden Ratio. Perhaps that is why I don't hear or feel standing waves in this room.
S510 is the sweet spot from a “value” perspective in REL’s lineup in my opinion. They can play down to 20hz in the right size room and are super fast and articulate.
Agreed, I have a S/510 as well, and a second one is on the wishlist.
Get a rythmik. Servo driven subwoofers. The entire extension range of the woofer is controlled. Cheaper and better than a Rel.
@@DescartesRenegade I looked into Rythmik and they don’t have the xlr/Nuetrik option. I believe it’s rca jacks only.
@@thomastoochal2133 yes, only RCA. That means it's more openly compatible to various systems. Rel doesn't have the R/L low level in/out option. Which means you can't run them with active speakers.
@@thomastoochal2133Rythmik offer customized plate amps-you absolutely can choose one with an XLR input, alongside the standard RCA
Adding a pair of REL subwoofers in our system is our next big budget item. We have a fairly new pair of Klipsch AL5 La Scala speakers powered by a PrimaLuna EVO300 integrated tube amplifier. The upper and mid range of the AL5 speakers are breath taking (totally subjective opinion, of course). Bass assistance is a given addition when you purchase the AL5's. I am pleased to hear how much you enjoy the REL sub. We plan to get something on the smaller side from REL for the pair.
Get in touch if you’d like a quality high level cable for that REL made with top quality Furutech, upgraded Neutrik plug and a few secret sauce components.
They’re also insanely expensive. The diminishing returns factor into such a purchase as well. Not all of us have thousands of dollars to spend on separate components. Need some sanity in your business model.
subwoofers sure are essential, but there are also many bad version of them for hifi.
Man, it so interesting to see how far behind car audio that home audio is when it comes to knowing how to get speakers to blend and why they do, and technology to get them to do so.
And in turn how far behind home audio that so many car audio products are when in it comes to dac/adc, preamps, ect.
Sorry it took you so long to discover high quality subwoofers. Just wait until you discover dsp for bass management. When adding a second or additional subwoofers, it becomes almost necessary to have a solution to adjust delays, correct phase, and eq. I used to run my RELs with high level input but now use MiniDSP2x4hd for bass control
Before ya get two, try a JL Audio fathom 13.
all the deep bass enthusiasts converge to try and cure ‘audiophiles’ bass allergy LOL
I agree low level input is better.
I hope some day you review HoloAudio - May DAC ( the giants killer)
What does "KEEP UP WITH MY SPEAKERS" mean ? Timing of low frequencies ? What determines this ?
Timing. You need a speedy sub.
Subwoofers are great when dialled correctly with your main speakers.
I bought a pair of vintage early 1980s Polk tower speakers with built in powered sub woofers . Sub woofers are excellent for reggae , hip-hop and funk but are not necessary for hard rock and classical music.
I think the reverse . Hip hop and reggae producers are always conscious of bass for its funk and slam . Rock metal producers always focus too much on the guitar
What is your favorite Seal track to test equipment?
Kiss From A Rose or If I Could
Physics rules. Speakers increase in distortion when the cone moves too much. The voice coil leaves the magnetic gap, and therefore the amp loses control of the cone. The cone flexes and is not pistonic in motion. There is also a doppler effect in the midrange as the excursion increases. Adding a subwoofer or two allows the woofers of the mains to keep out of these distortion inducing conditions by limiting the excursion of their cones. Of course, you CAN introduce more distortion with poor integration or reinforcement of room modes.
My system is a pair of Magnepans and a pair of relatively (under $1000) subwoofers crossed at 80Hz via the digital setup processing of my A/V receiver.
Ture sub is NEUMANN
KH750 or KH870
Never say never is the lesson learned and of course don’t have a closed mind. Be willing to listen to somebody even if they don’t parrot your view. Sometimes you can discover magic.
I have been looking at this sub.
I can say the JL-Audio's are top notch.
It is difficult to connect a subwoofer smoothly to a system. Condition : must have continuous phase adjustment, then:
1. Play a cd with lots of low frequencies.
2. Connect the main speakers with inverted phase.
3. Turn the phase adjustment knob to listen to the bass, until the bass sounds least loud! Cause the main speaker is inverted therefore they cancel each other.
4. Reconnect the main speaker. This time NOT inverted.
Try it! You will be surprised!