Great video, I see it's been up for many years. Beautiful overhaul facility! I've been spinning wrenches for 40 years, a labor of love. As a lad, I learned the ropes working on 911 engines, flat six air cooled. Some may wonder about engine overhaul and safety. Tell you what, perhaps I can relate things for you. I love motorcycles. Had a shop in the 1980s, great times. Just like aircraft, sudden engine failures have the potential for injury, unlike automobiles. With this reality in mind, there's a level of diligence that cannot be overlooked. With my present motorcycle, an Aprilia, we have an interesting engine, a Rotax V990, a 60 degree V-twin. Every 20,000 miles, it has been torn down for a proper inspection, valvetrain inspection, chain guides, clearances, alternator coil inspection, clutch inspection, water pump and oil pump condition, gearbox internals. The suspension and linkages, and rear single side swingarm, drive axle all come apart. Yes, it's a lot of labor, but I know that machine is as new. Sure, I could just change oil and plugs and run for years, but I won't take that risk.
For aircraft operated under part 91, there is NO “requirement” for overhaul at TBO. If the compressions are good, borescoping of the valves show no trouble signatures and the oil filter shows that the engine is not making metal, one would be well advised to fly beyond TBO.
If the OIL FILTER shows the engine is "not making metal? Not every impending failure "makes metal" and if the engine oil and filter are changed frequently the metal made from problems may have been drained in previous oil changes. And what is a "trouble signature" of a valve? Checking compression is also a very unreliable way to ascertain engine condition. Especially if its not done in conjunction with a cylinder leakdown test and if its performed on a cold engine and the carburetor throttle valve isn't open completely. At the very least if you're going to fly beyond TBO you should start with a FRESH ENGINE, take care of it properly in all aspects, submit oil samples for analysis to a quality oil testing lab from Day One and change oil and filters frequently to get a "wear trend" baseline, perform frequent CLOSE inspections of the engine as far as looking for loose hardware and hose connections and leakage, perform periodic compression/leakdown tests on a regular schedule so several are performed during the TBO period, steer clear of "lean of peak" operation and heavy loads and high temps and remember that TBO periods exist for a reason. Engine failures kill people. If you've got the scratch to own and fly a private aircraft in this day and age, you can afford to do things "by the book". If not, make sure you fly solo and don't take anybody else with you if you "save money" until it kills you.
DEEREMEYER1 This AOPA site explains the “signatures” that valves show before they fail: www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/air-safety-institute/valve-safety Cylinder leak-down checks are only a small part of ascertaining overall engine health. Carefully inspecting the filter for metal at each oil change together with oil analysis and cylinder boreoscopy will paint a better picture. Regardless, euthanizing an engine “just because” it has accumulated XXXX hours, is not smart in my book. Again, for part 91 operators, there is NO requirement to overhaul at the manufacturer’s recommended TBO. Additionally, if one operates a fuel injected engine (with an engine analyzer) and can get even fuel distribution via careful selection of nozzles, LOP operation results in LOWER CHTs. Lower CHTs produce better cylinder head and valve longevity. To suggest that LOP operations lead to early engine demise is evidence of subscribing to Old Wives Tales.
I agree. If certain signatures may indicate that an engine requires word PRIOR to TBO, then are not those same signatures valid at ANY point? Overhaul "on condition". One thing that should be checked are hoses, belts, and seals that may simply age, especially on an airplane stored in the weather.
DEEREMEYER1. He neglected to mention in the vid the importance of an annual inspection required by the FAA. That inspection by an experienced FAA inspection authorized (IA) mechanic will document and track any and all discrepancies in not only the power plant, but in the airframe as well.
@@deeremeyer1749 And fly over a desert with no people. I agree that the engine should be overhauled. Yes, there is exceptions to the rule if the engine had all the extra care as per above, and passes the tests, you can go TBO. I am not found of the penny wise pound foolish way. I would factor a new engine as part of the price of the airplane I am purchase knowing I will need a new engine when the TBO period ends. I am pilot that likes to do the extra maintenance and take extra care of the engine. Maybe I am OCD but again, 50K for a rebuilt or new MFG engine is a lot cheaper than an aircraft accident.
Except in commercial aircraft like part 135, TBO is but a recommendation and not a requirement. You can legally fly them till they fail regardless of the hours if you so choose.
The Kids at Sisters High School Here in Oregon have a Avation Class...I'm not Sure on what they have to do to get into the Class but I see them Flying over my house about 2 to 3 times a week....They have a 172 and a Smaller Cessna....I wish we had that Class when I was in School......Hell we didn't even have Planes when I went to School.
You can drive a car without a battery. Done it many times. Now if you don't have an alternator, or from the olden days a generator, THEN you will need a battery to run the car.
Aircraft engines are so reliable they've got multiple ignition systems for redundancy and you have to overhaul them on a shedule instead of when they're worn out and parts have to be replaced regardless of condition. Makes perfect sense.
Why are many flight schools so cheap on maintenance. They cut corners. I am a student pilot and finding this out. Like, when I check the oil it is super dirty and black. I go check the engine log. Crazy what I find. Another example is the engine is running on the hot side with the temp needle in the green but right next to the red and the CFI tells me to do slow flight. Nope not doing slow flight. I flat out told him " I want to be nice to the engine it;s on the hot side and enrich the mixture and so on. Just because it's not my plane I will take care of it like it's mine. Guess, I am a strange pilot.
Hey Pat! I was wondering the same thing. But with the motor being a "Flat Four" type of configuration, the weight of the piston, rod, ring pack and such should be counter-balanced by the opposing side. So, I don't believe you would need to have any bobweights at all when balancing.
Two magnetos fitted for redundancy? I don't think this is true. It's to prevent detonation. Perhaps it was easier say redundancy, rather than explain flame rate, detonation and destruction of the piston.
Can you list all the other redundant systems besides the ignition system? Also TBO is an overhaul recommendation and not a requirement unless being used commercially.
@@ZCV7853 I can't recall if he stated that TBO was a requirement - don't think he did. But also remember that people send him engines and they know the regs too. They send him engines because they want a statistically sound reliability, plus if they sell the plane, they can point to hours since last overhaul as a way of placing a price on it. But go ahead and talk about myths anyway....
Not true. Disconnecting the battery in a (modern) "properly running car" with engine running will cause alternator output to spike severely and damage/destroy the PCM. Your statement was true for cars with generators, breaker points, and carburetors.
@@christophernewton2579 No, not really. Most modern vehicles will have systems damaged if an attempt is made to jumpstart with greater than 12 volts and are labeled underhood as to that fact.
@@walterk1221 how many Volts does a fully chared battery have. 13.6 volts and what type of interal combutin car use more than 12 volt electrical system's
@@christophernewton2579 I am just enlightening you with regard to a warning found in owner manual, service manual and underhood labels. You just go right ahead and yank your modern vehicle negative cable off the battery but DO NOT COME WHINING TO ME WHEN YOU LEARN YOU GET TO PURCHASE A NEW PCM.
Modern car engines are far, far more reliable than these. NOBODY(outside part 135) follows TBOs, they wait for failure. I've seen props with 7000+ hours since overhaul(~2000TBO). Why? Because this shit is stupidly expensive to overhaul and I've seen way too many engines come out of overhaul with junk accessories and leaking seals. If you buy a modern car and the thing burns/leaks even 1/4L up before even 10k miles you should be surprised. These engines you're happy to see only a few quarts filled up by the 50 hour. These engines aren't junk(some models certainly are like the H2AD) but they are overpriced and quite frankly mediocre, and most are left way past TBO because the owner wants to push the engine to its limit to save money. I don't advocate sending the engine out at TBO just cause, but a lot of these engines hit 3 or 4k and have problems yet still do not get sent out, just bandaid fixes.
Mags an 2 spark plugs are the only redundancy it has .. the fact that we should be at the point of fuel injection on all new aircraft engines an were still doing carbs says to lazy to grow up
Great video, I see it's been up for many years. Beautiful overhaul facility!
I've been spinning wrenches for 40 years, a labor of love. As a lad, I learned the ropes working on 911 engines, flat six air cooled.
Some may wonder about engine overhaul and safety. Tell you what, perhaps I can relate things for you.
I love motorcycles. Had a shop in the 1980s, great times. Just like aircraft, sudden engine failures have the potential for injury, unlike automobiles. With this reality in mind, there's a level of diligence that cannot be overlooked.
With my present motorcycle, an Aprilia, we have an interesting engine, a Rotax V990, a 60 degree V-twin. Every 20,000 miles, it has been torn down for a proper inspection, valvetrain inspection, chain guides, clearances, alternator coil inspection, clutch inspection, water pump and oil pump condition, gearbox internals. The suspension and linkages, and rear single side swingarm, drive axle all come apart. Yes, it's a lot of labor, but I know that machine is as new.
Sure, I could just change oil and plugs and run for years, but I won't take that risk.
Never had any trouble getting engines from them in the 25 years of working as a A&P
VERY GOOD PEOPLE TO WORK WITH
I was told in school that the prop is to keep the pilot cool. ‘Cause if it stops, they sure do sweat.
Sweat getting best glide and looking for a place to land.
Thanks for sharing, we are located just down the road in Manlius, NY. Very cool to see this operation!
Very cool story about the four generations of flyer's at Penn Yan Aero :-D
An incredible coincidence in my life has led me to research this company.
For aircraft operated under part 91, there is NO “requirement” for overhaul at TBO. If the compressions are good, borescoping of the valves show no trouble signatures and the oil filter shows that the engine is not making metal, one would be well advised to fly beyond TBO.
If the OIL FILTER shows the engine is "not making metal? Not every impending failure "makes metal" and if the engine oil and filter are changed frequently the metal made from problems may have been drained in previous oil changes. And what is a "trouble signature" of a valve? Checking compression is also a very unreliable way to ascertain engine condition. Especially if its not done in conjunction with a cylinder leakdown test and if its performed on a cold engine and the carburetor throttle valve isn't open completely. At the very least if you're going to fly beyond TBO you should start with a FRESH ENGINE, take care of it properly in all aspects, submit oil samples for analysis to a quality oil testing lab from Day One and change oil and filters frequently to get a "wear trend" baseline, perform frequent CLOSE inspections of the engine as far as looking for loose hardware and hose connections and leakage, perform periodic compression/leakdown tests on a regular schedule so several are performed during the TBO period, steer clear of "lean of peak" operation and heavy loads and high temps and remember that TBO periods exist for a reason. Engine failures kill people. If you've got the scratch to own and fly a private aircraft in this day and age, you can afford to do things "by the book". If not, make sure you fly solo and don't take anybody else with you if you "save money" until it kills you.
DEEREMEYER1 This AOPA site explains the “signatures” that valves show before they fail: www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/air-safety-institute/valve-safety
Cylinder leak-down checks are only a small part of ascertaining overall engine health. Carefully inspecting the filter for metal at each oil change together with oil analysis and cylinder boreoscopy will paint a better picture. Regardless, euthanizing an engine “just because” it has accumulated XXXX hours, is not smart in my book. Again, for part 91 operators, there is NO requirement to overhaul at the manufacturer’s recommended TBO.
Additionally, if one operates a fuel injected engine (with an engine analyzer) and can get even fuel distribution via careful selection of nozzles, LOP operation results in LOWER CHTs. Lower CHTs produce better cylinder head and valve longevity. To suggest that LOP operations lead to early engine demise is evidence of subscribing to Old Wives Tales.
I agree. If certain signatures may indicate that an engine requires word PRIOR to TBO, then are not those same signatures valid at ANY point? Overhaul "on condition". One thing that should be checked are hoses, belts, and seals that may simply age, especially on an airplane stored in the weather.
DEEREMEYER1. He neglected to mention in the vid the importance of an annual inspection required by the FAA. That inspection by an experienced FAA inspection authorized (IA) mechanic will document and track any and all discrepancies in not only the power plant, but in the airframe as well.
@@deeremeyer1749 And fly over a desert with no people. I agree that the engine should be overhauled. Yes, there is exceptions to the rule if the engine had all the extra care as per above, and passes the tests, you can go TBO. I am not found of the penny wise pound foolish way. I would factor a new engine as part of the price of the airplane I am purchase knowing I will need a new engine when the TBO period ends. I am pilot that likes to do the extra maintenance and take extra care of the engine. Maybe I am OCD but again, 50K for a rebuilt or new MFG engine is a lot cheaper than an aircraft accident.
Beautiful history. Family is everything
I love these guys. The one is a good interviewer, and the owner guy is awesome so good at talking and explaining things clearly. Wow!
Except in commercial aircraft like part 135, TBO is but a recommendation and not a requirement. You can legally fly them till they fail regardless of the hours if you so choose.
The Kids at Sisters High School Here in Oregon have a Avation Class...I'm not Sure on what they have to do to get into the Class but I see them Flying over my house about 2 to 3 times a week....They have a 172 and a Smaller Cessna....I wish we had that Class when I was in School......Hell we didn't even have Planes when I went to School.
Actually most of these flat engines were designed, engineered and produced from the late 30's.
Fascinating video 😃
Sales info only.... no mechanical use at all.
You can drive a car without a battery. Done it many times. Now if you don't have an alternator, or from the olden days a generator, THEN you will need a battery to run the car.
In a car if you take the battery out and the engine stops you have a problem. The battery does not keep the engine running.
You better get going cuz I don't got no money
Wonder what a hellcat motor TBO would be? Great video. Isnt America Great
Aircraft engines are so reliable they've got multiple ignition systems for redundancy and you have to overhaul them on a shedule instead of when they're worn out and parts have to be replaced regardless of condition. Makes perfect sense.
But they have only one induction system, and one oil system.
Can't pull over in the air
I LOVE AVIATION
Why are many flight schools so cheap on maintenance. They cut corners. I am a student pilot and finding this out. Like, when I check the oil it is super dirty and black. I go check the engine log. Crazy what I find. Another example is the engine is running on the hot side with the temp needle in the green but right next to the red and the CFI tells me to do slow flight. Nope not doing slow flight. I flat out told him " I want to be nice to the engine it;s on the hot side and enrich the mixture and so on. Just because it's not my plane I will take care of it like it's mine. Guess, I am a strange pilot.
I had my Continental c90 on 2900 hrs - 900 over TBO - and the crank snapped in flight . I'd say stick to TBO's
How does that have anything to do with tbo? You could have caused the same thing in 500hrs.
You can take the battery out of a car and it runs fine. Same difference.
Cars don't stop if you take the battery out..
Good stuff.
THEY USE A MIGHTY BEEFY CRANKSHAFT, WHAT IS THE BOBWEIGHT IN THOSE ENGINES?
Hey Pat! I was wondering the same thing. But with the motor being a "Flat Four" type of configuration, the weight of the piston, rod, ring pack and such should be counter-balanced by the opposing side. So, I don't believe you would need to have any bobweights at all when balancing.
Two magnetos fitted for redundancy? I don't think this is true. It's to prevent detonation.
Perhaps it was easier say redundancy, rather than explain flame rate, detonation and destruction of the piston.
Can you list all the other redundant systems besides the ignition system? Also TBO is an overhaul recommendation and not a requirement unless being used commercially.
They are in the business of overhauling engines. Of course they are going to perpetuate the myth.
@@ZCV7853 I can't recall if he stated that TBO was a requirement - don't think he did. But also remember that people send him engines and they know the regs too. They send him engines because they want a statistically sound reliability, plus if they sell the plane, they can point to hours since last overhaul as a way of placing a price on it. But go ahead and talk about myths anyway....
@@frontagulusNTSB statistics show the most unreliable time in an engines life is after teardown and reassembly. No myths here, just facts.
@ 521 thats an incorrect statement, a properly running car, will not shut down , if you take the battery out,
Not true. Disconnecting the battery in a (modern) "properly running car" with engine running will cause alternator output to spike severely and damage/destroy the PCM. Your statement was true for cars with generators, breaker points, and carburetors.
@@walterk1221 not so the elctroincs are designed to accommodate this happening
@@christophernewton2579 No, not really. Most modern vehicles will have systems damaged if an attempt is made to jumpstart with greater than 12 volts and are labeled underhood as to that fact.
@@walterk1221 how many Volts does a fully chared battery have. 13.6 volts and what type of interal combutin car use more than 12 volt electrical system's
@@christophernewton2579 I am just enlightening you with regard to a warning found in owner manual, service manual and underhood labels. You just go right ahead and yank your modern vehicle negative cable off the battery but DO NOT COME WHINING TO ME WHEN YOU LEARN YOU GET TO PURCHASE A NEW PCM.
How does having too many moving parts translate into reliable.
What are all the redundant systems? Ignition only standard,maybe an alternator,or vacuume pump.not all that much
That's it, just redundant mags. Single alternator, single vacuum pump on 98% of GA aircraft.
Penn Yann is a reputable company. Like to see aircraft I buy with Penn Yann engines. If taken care of, they will make Tbo.
Severely over engineered? Sounds like nobody would want that. I prefer the term, precisely engineered.
"Severely over engineered" my ass!
Modern car engines are far, far more reliable than these. NOBODY(outside part 135) follows TBOs, they wait for failure. I've seen props with 7000+ hours since overhaul(~2000TBO). Why? Because this shit is stupidly expensive to overhaul and I've seen way too many engines come out of overhaul with junk accessories and leaking seals. If you buy a modern car and the thing burns/leaks even 1/4L up before even 10k miles you should be surprised. These engines you're happy to see only a few quarts filled up by the 50 hour. These engines aren't junk(some models certainly are like the H2AD) but they are overpriced and quite frankly mediocre, and most are left way past TBO because the owner wants to push the engine to its limit to save money. I don't advocate sending the engine out at TBO just cause, but a lot of these engines hit 3 or 4k and have problems yet still do not get sent out, just bandaid fixes.
I looked at a Twin but I bought a 747....And I'm trying to TALK LIKE THIS USED CAR SALESMAN'S...
A minute long intro... on a 12 minute video...
Mags an 2 spark plugs are the only redundancy it has .. the fact that we should be at the point of fuel injection on all new aircraft engines an were still doing carbs says to lazy to grow up
Just the same as a VW engine, no more, no less. Only the VW is less "gay" !
A little more right wing..
looks a shitload like a VW