CSOC- Gods Run in the Blood, or, Why Paul's Pagans were not 'Converts'?
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- čas přidán 23. 03. 2014
- Seminar discussing Paul, pagans, ethnicity and conversion.
The seminar (in English) was given by Prof. Paula Fredriksen (The Hebrew University of Jerusalem) as part of the activity in the Center for the study of Conversion and Inter-Religious Encounters at BGU (March 18th, 2014).
Fascinating seminar. Prof Paula has remarkable insight, able to articulate so well what I've been looking to express.
Gods are ethnic. Very true indeed! All indigenous people of earth had their own native, ethnic spiritual heritage, and tribal pantheon of gods. This was until the old world was overthrown by the spread of Abrahamism. When all indigenous people were forbidden from worshiping their native gods which today we call a collective name “paganism”, and instead made to convert to one of the religions of Abraham. I’m not being judgmental, I’m just stating the fact
HARDCORE TRUTH
Nonsense, Paula has an atheistic perspective. Lord is One.
Yes, you are being judgmental. Both Islam and Christianity will keep demolishing Paganism and idols. Idolatry of any kind is filth.
@@hassanmirza2392 A Lord is a parliamentarian and who I worship or sources, or god, is certainly none of your business.
@@hassanmirza2392 "Idolatry of any kind is filth"
go look in the mirror you who think you are chosen.
So much energy spent on a Jewish fiction. A fiction that many took as a true story.
Spot on, that's because they want to control the world.
Interesting information.
What is the date of this lecture?
Before you take questions, I'd suggest that you ask the "audience" to repeat your theses. The audience has no concept of religio. Religio is just an anthropological curiosity to them.
1st century Israel = 21st century Korea
You have to know that .
Amazing historical events is taking place there
Hosea 2: 23 "And I will sow her as My own in the land, and I will have compassion on ‘No Compassion.’ I will say to those called ‘Not My People,’ ‘You are My people,’ and they will say, ‘You are my God.’ ”
@Smooth Jazz - but be advised, the people to whom Yahweh said, "You are not my people," were the ten northern tribes, i.e. the portion of ancient Israel who were NEVER called "Jews" because they were never part of 1.) The tribe of Judah 2.) The kingdom of Judah 3.) The nation of Judea.
@@MichaelAllen-po4eo I dont think so---as christ stated' For God SO LOVED THE WORLD,HE SENT HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON...TO SAVE THE WORLD' ''Go baptize all nations,in the name of the father,son holy spirit"...Mathew 21 tells that the jews would be replaced & john 4 speaks of the temple becoming obsolete
If you don't mind, I'd like to hip you to the view I have taken of christianity during the life of Paul, I say what Paul put forward was not a "401K religion". No, it was not something to "retire" by or with as the end was nigh and by this generation we are told. By virtue of the "well... where the hell is he?" period of some couple of generations later, did it become a "religion that one could both live and retire by" as it's obvious that "He's" not coming back ANY TIME SOON, so let's just now, generations after the fact, make a perpetual religion out of this shit that our forefathers started (and make it an engine of persecution, death and destruction). Would this be precise in any way?
I suspect Paul may have invented "Christianity," and in a number of ways his teachings are not the actual teachings of the Rabbi/Messiah Yeshua/Jesus. This creates a monumental revolutionary idea, that only God knows how we need to reconsider the person of Jesus/Ueshua! How many Christians will be willing to accept the truth about Jesus, and embrace his actual teachings, and accept him not based on the interpretation of Jesus' significance by Saul of Tarsus-St Paul? Very powerful stuff, and certainly would make the one reconsidering Paul's ideas and the truth about Jesus, fell very alone!
or did John invent Christianity in which it is Jesus to be worshiped instead of YHWH?
Jesus taught that he had come to set Son against Father, daughter against Mother, etc. The breakup of the family cults away from their gods. Paul was following Jesus teachings.
How about they made it all up ! Just like the Greeks were debating about the historic accuracy of their Hercules (son of a sky god born to a mortal woman bla bla bla bla )
How about evidence from ancient egypt---that has no records of plaques or a first born killed or pharoah leaving with his army to chase israelites.The egyptians were keen on historical records.What about evidence that there was plenty of open dry land available to escape without crossing the red sea. What about God forbidding the creation of sacred images but then tells the people to create a image of a serpent to ward off snakes.Look at your own backyard before listening to a scholar who is out of touch from mainstream scholarship
no Mathew21 teaches the jews would be replaced & John 4 teaches the temple will become obsolete
"God of Israel" Not the world.
True!!
yeah. and by saying this God of Israel will be respected and worshipped by non-Jews expressly implies that this God is ruthlessly imposed upon the Pagans. look at the Protocols of Zion to see what they're working to accomplish.
How did the early Christians define "Israel?"
@@jamesstevenson7725 For God So loved the World,he sent his only begotten son"
nonsense , for christ says For God so loved the world,he sent his only begotten son...to save it " "go baptize all nations,in the name of the father,son & holy spirit" Mathew 21 tells of the parable of the jews being replaced
When Paul said in Romans "our salvation is closer than when we believed first," could we think Paul's meaning of salvation was not a Parousia (second coming of Messiah), instead Being set free from bondage of sin into a true repentan life which is caused by Nero's persecution? For example, did'nt Habbakuk interpreted the coming judgment of Babylon as God's salvation of His people? chapter 3: 13
יָצָאתָ לְיֵשַׁע עַמֶּךָ, לְיֵשַׁע אֶת-מְשִׁיחֶךָ; מָחַצְתָּ רֹּאשׁ מִבֵּית רָשָׁע, עָרוֹת יְסוֹד עַד-צַוָּאר סֶלָה. {פ}13 Thou art come forth for the deliverance of Thy people, for the deliverance of Thine anointed; Thou woundest the head out of the house of the wicked, uncovering the foundation even unto the neck. Selah {P}
HAIL ODIN!!!!!!
Hail Odin!
Elohim originally refers to the children of the god El, but later it was used to describe aspects of Yahweh including his followers.
Originally Anu, Inanna and Enki were of separate beliefs. Anu superseded Inanna with the building of the white temple and uniting of Uruk. Enki was from Eridu, an much older city. As Uruk rose and alliances was forged the original gods of Eridu, Ninhursag (Mother Earth) and Absu (father Water) gave rise to Enki who then became the son of Anu and a Ninhursag. Apsu wasn’t killed off just delegated to a more primitive authority. When Sargon took control he promoted Inanna over Anu, not by replacing Anu, Anu had already waned in power but by stealing the various powers of other gods for herself.
One thing she and some other scholars tend to be oblivious to when asking why Paule expected some so-called"end of the world" is the fact that Paul (Just like the historical Jesus) must have EXPECTED THIS END TO BE PRECEDED BY the destruction of the Temple by Roman troops, crushing the one central symbol of a rival "Israel" which was to be supplanted by the Body of Christ. No one before 70AD expected a Parousia that would precede the Temple's destruction
The thing is the end of the world is mistranslated many times!
For a reason!
Check Mathew 13:40 for example end of world is the end of aeion (period of time) aion doesnot mean world it means time.
So the end of the "world" It did occurred in that generation because with the destruction of the temple meant the end of an era (Aeion) time.
What would have been the attraction of Paul's message to the pagans? They would have been pressured by their neighbors as well as the local government to remain supporters of the temples of their many gods, and would have been considered seditious, bad citizens. Especially in light of the fact that the kingdom/second coming did not make its appearance in the time frame Paul and Jesus had given.
tbillyjoeroth the world was about to end.
There was no attraction. They were destroyed if they refused to convert
Why should the first century be any less messy than our last century?
I think Paul just needed a bigger base to collect money for Jerusalem. 😜
Were Mrs. Fredrikson to understand Paul's theology more accurately (indeed a difficult task), she would have a much easier time handling these categories. Enlightening presentation. Thanks for posting.
lol
When a culture is stripped of its deity and thus of its family root, the shell, traits and artefacts of that culture usually remain but are variously transformed and adapted by the characteristics of the Spirit and only secondarily by the remnants of the cult and culture of the Jews (ie., by the remnants of Judaism, whatever that has become). The Jewish Messiah was Jewish in Jewish cultural form. He did not elevate Judaisms culture to supremacy as a culture. What was demanded of gentiles was also demanded of Jews, that they be transformed from within by the Spirit. The Jewish cult-ure remains shadow, the sense of the divine in pagan religions remains shadow; all subjects of all cultures were bound to respective shadows. In Christ, all, including Jews, are adopted (refamilied); gentile “converts” to Christ do not adopt the cult, the culture or the shadows of either upon realisation of adoption in Christ. Gentiles do not become “sons and daughters or minions of Israel after the flesh”. Nevertheless, our Gospel was and remains cast in Jewish metaphors. I remain bewildered about many “Christian” allusions to Jewish narratives as if they were not as corrupt and/or ineffectual as pagan forms and narratives, but for redemption in the universal Father’s Son.
Happy to be corrected. . I think the Judaisers were more effective than we commonly acknowledge.
Happy to be corrected.
People don’t listen 👂 and this is why they don’t hear....
Paul and Joseph Smith had a lot in common
After reading the New Testament, I did not see Paul nor the other Apostles as perceiving themselves to be the founders of Christianity, or a new religion separate and distinct from Judaism. In layman's language, Paul and the Apostles were Jews, and considered their message simply to be the fulfillment of Jewish Messianic prophetic promise. That Yeshua of Nazareth, was the incarnate Messiah, and through Him the other nations, were being welcomed into participating with Israel's worship of the One True Living G-d, while remaining in the ethnic framework into which they were born. Contrary to what I thought I would find when I read the New Testament, I did not find the Apostles or Paul advocating a split from Judaism, the abrogation of Torah obligations when it came to worship, or the instruction and license to create new, separate and distinct festivals through which adherents could celebrate covenant faithfulness to Israel's Deity. Paul, the Apostles and tens of thousands 1st century Jewish followers of Jesus, continued to practice Jewish Temple cult liturgy and sacrifice. According to Acts 21:20-24 without perceiving it to be contrary to the gospel (as it is called) they practiced and preached. Any contrary suggestion is simply unsubstantiated conjecture.
We read (Luke 22:19) that Yeshua, illuminated certain aspects of preexisting elements in an annual Jewish meal. A meal that included the blood of grapes, which is tahor (clean) under Jewish law (Deuteronomy 32:14). On the slim chance that you are not a troll, and are sincerely confused regarding what is in the cups Jews drink from during a sedar meal, I feel compelled to clarify that for you.
And yet the Catholics have no problem with transubstantiation wherein the cup actually contains blood.
The Pesach cup of wine Yeshua shared with his disciples on the eve of his execution was a cup of betrothal. The wine, symbolic of the groom's blood (i.e. He would give his life for his bride, if need be), was drank by his bride, and upon the drinking the two were considered, officially, wed. This was customary in Israelite marriage. Also customary was a next cup of wine, shared between the two following a passage of time, during which the new groom would retreat to his father's house, and build an acceptable place of living. Upon completion some year, two, or sometimes even three years hence, the groom would return for his bride, and upon his arrival another cup of wine would be drank, this time shared between the two. This was considered a cup of joy. Note the parallel to Mark 14:25, "Truly I tell you, I will not drink again from the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.” PS. I'm not 100% sure this analysis is entirely correct, but this is my current understanding.
Not really 'being welcomed into participating with Israel's worship of the One True Living G-d' but a returning of the nations from assigned gods in Deut' 32 to the one true God, Yahweh.
There were no Jews in the modern sense. Judaism, as we understand it today, began in 500 ad. Paul was Turkish, as he came from Turkey. Greek polythiests born in judea were judeans because they came from judea.
I don't understand why Jews, from Judea, refer to themselves and their land as Israel. If there ever was a united kingdom, it hasn't existed since 1000 BC, right? So why do those from Jude-Yah think of themselves as Isra-El? Why do they adopt a northern chief as the king of the south? Why does everyone think prophets are talking about Judea/Jews when they are talking about the lost northern tribes, trying to figure out why they were dispersed?
Why do Diaspora Jews think they are entitled to the northern lands of Israel? Why do they not recognize that Palestinians are genetically MORE HEBREW than the rebel Judeans removed from Judea? If it is because they were converted to Islam, is this evidence that "religio" is stronger than blood? Because supposedly, it's a mother's blood that is important -- (matriarchal because the patriarchy was subverted by patris familias -- Jewish rebels killed & women & children carted off to Rome as slaves, so Jewishness became a matter of the mother's line.)
How I wish I could afford to have someone explain this all to me.
it's because their God is ACTUALLY Lucifer, the usurper. White Europeans are the TRUE Israelites, and their ancestral Gods are the only ones they are to worship... the Jews are the descendants of Edom, and are the people that our Gods told us to destroy for their wickedness, but we, under Joshua's leadership, failed to do this because of Edom's deceptive nature. they deceived us into making a covenant with them using moldy bread, which Joshua stubbornly insisted on keeping instead of destroying them like he was commanded to.
the Jews' claim the land of Palestine is illegitimate and will ultimately fail because Esau sold his birthright to Jacob for a bowl of stew... our Gods promised that we would own Palestine forever as our inheritance, yet the sons of Edom have stolen it from us and are killing the Palestinians every day because of their hatred for them. the God of Israel will obliterate them soon enough and then the whole world will know peace, and each race will worship their own Gods as nature intended.
the Jews are unnatural, and they have manipulated everything into serving them and their illegitimate Zionist state. i won't recognize their God because they refuse to honor mine.
Marxist Jews think they're entitled to the entire planet & that the goyim live only serve them.
Watch Europa, the last battle.
@@Draco_Alpha Weird melding of paganism with Christian Identity. Our inheritance has to be Europe. Palestine as a peripheral client taking care of our frontier.
Does Dr. Fredrikson understand that goy/ethne are both words used to frequently describe the nations of Israel and Judah?
Words change meaning with change of context and author separated by hundreds of years. It's best to stick to peer reviewed scholarship.
Don't mess with Texas 😂
Thanks but no thanks, joules.
Ah, um, aaa, um, ah, um, ah.......
Paul taught that this world is under the judgement of God's wrath...the same thing that Jesus and all the other Apostles of Christ taught. Why don't we talk about that? "Repent, or you likewise will perish" Luke 13:3
Look up 13 meaning and 3
Just spouting lots of speculative hypotheses. She clearly has no basis for much of the claims she was making.
God is one, I mean God is God of Israel and the world.
Yeshua is the very essence of Yahweh-God incarnate into a body of flesh. Adam in his humanity but without the fallen nature that all humanity is subjected to regarding sinful nature. The soul Spirit of Yeshua is completely Yahweh-God.
Unlike all of us that possess a soul spirit and body. Yeshua serves as son,high priest and the lamb that is the ultimate sin offering that Yahweh-God accepts that will do what all the other sin offerings of the past that only sufficed but never blotted out nor remitted sin. The torah speaks clearly of sin offerings but Yeshua is the lamb slain.
Wrong
If you believe in Abrahamic religion. Judaism was originally Henotheisitc.
The God of Abraham and is Isaac. The same God of the Muslims.
@@somniumisdreaming no it was from the beginning monotheist.