Removing Lead From Battery Acid?
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- čas přidán 7. 06. 2024
- Based on a couple of suggestions, we attempt to remove the lead contamination in our previously recovered used battery acid by electrolysing the solution.
We expect any soluble lead present in solution to plate out on the cathode, making this (in theory) an effective method for removing lead contamination in sulfuric acid.
In practice, even after 27 hours of electrolysis on 200mL of acid, we don't observe any lead plating on the cathode and are only capable of removing about half of the lead contamination.
Additionally, we measure the concentration of the acid we recovered, which shows that the electrolyte in our dead battery is around 20-22% sulfuric acid. - Věda a technologie
Use a lead Elektrode where you want to grow the lead out the solution!
Yeah, that would probably be better, whoops...
The reason I was using graphite was because it would have been a lot easier to see the progress of the electrolysis, plating lead onto lead wouldn't have given any visual change.
Maybe I'll try a copper cathode or something, I know lead can plate easily onto that, and it should still give a visual change.
@@ScrapScience yeah mate.... And BTW.... Good to have you back here
This is why I like this channel.. Most others are assorted 'add this chemical' or 'use the following distillation/reflex/whatever' process..
Here, it's 'We shall use electrochemistry.. Because it solves all the problems!'
Edit: It was also pointed out to me that the easiest way to pre-constrate it is just to boil until you see white fumes white. You get a bit less than 70%. Done easily on a hot plate, in a very well ventilated area/fume hood(Did it in the back yard away from everything with a fan aimed at it). A little scary but brings it down to a manageable and roughly known consideration for storage. But doesn't remove the lead.
Haha, I'm pretty sure everyone else is just scared to use electrochemistry for anything. Once you start using it, all other chemical methods become obsolete :)
And yeah, I'm planning on boiling it down to around 70% at some point. I'll probably go to ~50% in an open beaker, and then go the rest of the way with a distillation setup anyway (just to prevent the fumes going everywhere).
*conCENTRate
@@Sam-ob4of What about it?
Glad to see you back! Always enjoy your content from here in the states.
Good to see you upload again
love your vids man, keep em comin!
*Just stir in a few ounces of Zinc powder, DONE. Brown Lead powder forms on the bottom and the solution turns onto Zinc Sulfate which is great from making wood Mold proof when brushed on or used as a safe weed killer in soils.*
The lead from the sulfuric acid may be easy removed with a small amount of hydrogen sulfide. I think it is much better since it eliminates the need to distill the sulfuric acid itself -- you must boiled off only water (and a little bit of sulfuric acid) to obtain the high-quality azeotrope without heavy metals and organic impurities.
That's definitely a good idea, I didn't think of that. Thanks!
Actually, having thought about this for a couple of weeks, I was going to give it a go, but it turns out that lead sulfide will not precipitate in a solution which is this strongly acidic. Sulfides aren't stable in acidic conditions since the sulfide ion acts as a base.
It's a little disappointing, since this again leaves us with only distillation for removing the lead.
@@ScrapScience We tried it.
For most purposes, however, dirty sulfuric acid is also suitable. The products of its use in some cases are not acidic and lead can be precipitated from there (for example, obtaining nitric acid). Also, there is IMHO not a very good option not to remove lead due to its insignificant amount for nature.
The distillation of sulfuric acid is not difficult when using a gas stove. For perfect operation, the only thing that is necessary is a retort without stopper.
@@dimaminiailo3723 Show us!
@@YouMockMe I wanted to record a video about this process, but now I am busy with the another things(
Welcome back!
Welcome back mate.
Really cool Vid. I tried before with Copper - and graphite rod (Pos) wrapped tightly with a Fabric/membrane, i observed a Slate grey deposit of lead
Thank you for the information
First tOm is back and now you ?
Is it my birthday
Try boiling the acid down before electrolysis, diluted acid will keep dissolving the lead back into solutions, concentrated acid will not
The carbon rod that fell apart may have been converting into some form of graphene? I think on Robert Murray Smith's channel he used H2SO4 as an intercalator for breaking up graphfoil via electrolysis into multi-layer graphene. He then sonicated it to finish the conversion. Maybe the rod was doing something similar? Could be good for some other experiments later :)
Thanks for the great vid.
Cheers.
Are the old battery carbon rods i find in the garden suitable for these uses ( as a carbon cathode/anode ) ty
You can raise the concentration of Sulfuric Acid in the original battery electrolyte by charging the battery. I realize the battery may not be any good or hold a decent charge, but it doesn't cost much to throw it on the charger and boost the acid content.
I like that idea
@@parcydwr Charging a battery converts the lead sulfate on both anode and cathode to sulfuric acid and the corresponding lead (cathode) and lead peroxide (anode).
Hi! I was wondering if it would be possible to purify the battery acid by using an cell whit a diafrgm to not mix in the led again?
Sort of like in the Epsomsalt electrolysis video?
I totally get not wanting to distill sulfuric acid. That is actually a sign of a mature and knowledgeable chemist.
The solution is to focus and get ready to distill the sulfuric acid. It takes preparation and a lot of safety. It might even take equipment you don't own yet (however I think you do own most of the necessary equipment and tools.) Take a few weeks and just study distillation and sulfuric acid. With just a few weeks of study/practice and a few dollars, you'll be ready. Once you're able to distill sulfuric acid, a lot of options open up. Good luck, I know you can do this safely and effectively!
DIstillation of sulfuric acid is an extremely pleasant process, IMHO. You don't even need a cooling water!
@@dimaminiailo3723 that is a really great way to look on things.
@@benjaminpainter378 Ahaha yes)
I've done this several times and I can say that I have never problems with sulfuric acid itself. Now, the only unsolved problem is the release of acid smoke from the preheated glass joint. Maybe I'll make a video about this process later.
@@dimaminiailo3723 let me know if you do make a video, I'll support it
It's so nice to see a positive and encouraging comment in a youtube comment section. Good luck in all your endeavors fellow human! 👍
I don't know if you have distilled h2so4 before but a few tips are use a air condenser in front of a liebig to prevent breaking glassware, a vigero works ok for a air condenser also.. if the acid bumps to violently stop and let it cool to about 100c or less before running it through a fritz and try distilling again.. welding gloves and metal clips are a must have
It'll likely be a long while before I get around to it anyway. I don't have any way of reaching the required temperatures in a controlled fashion just yet.
Thanks for the tips! I'll keep them in mind for when I eventually convince myself that I can do it safely.
@@ScrapScience old lpg camp stoves work really well.. i ended up pulling a old free camp stove apart for the gas fittings and burner and stuck it all in a off cut of cattle rail (rectangle tube) to make an awesome little lab burner for high temp work, just need a welder, grinder and drill to make 1 and just set it up the same as in the stove except more compact.. a burner made from scrap to do scrap science 🙂.. i always distill off as much water as i can in a mantle using a vigero before final distilling too ( distill until it fumes up in the boiling flask) that way the acid is higher %to start with and the yield is much better
Could electrolysis be used to clean up lead in water like in Flint, MI?
I didn't hear what voltage you said you are using but I know for essentially this same process but with gold at like 3v it will plate and 5v it will plate but fall off easy and get brown sludge and at 12v you only get brown sludge which is your gold but none on the cathode basically
nice video
I think that if you used a lead cathode it would probably work better
Super!
When i refine gold i use sulfuric acid to precipitate any lead out of solution.
Some googling found that EDTA (commonly available food additive) could be added to lead-acid batteries (and should even rejuvinate them by sequestering the lead sulfate). Seems like an interesting idea here. Another thought to try might be table salt. It is used to precipitate silver and other chlorides when doing refining but given how close lead is to the other metals, it seems worthwhile. The salt will also react with the acid to give you HCl (which can also vaporize off) but you'd think the lead would react first. Finally, it might be worthwhile titrating with salt or other chemicals that let you see the lead in solution rather than relying on strips. Also, lead sulfate is not particularly soluble in water or sulfuric acid, so while there is almost certainly SOME lead in the acid, it isn't very much. 25C Lead sulfate is 0.4g/L - enough to be a waste issue, but not much will plate out in electrolysis of a 200 ml diluted solution.
I know in gold refining they add sulfuric acid or sulfur dioxide because lead sulfate is highly insoluble. It's very possible that there may not be any appreciable amount of lead in solution to begin with.
There certainly is a bit of lead sulfate crystals, and these just don't want to react.
@@conceptofeverything8793 Maybe cooling down the whole solution would help sulfate lead precipitate ?
Thanks for sharing , what would happen if you just evaporate the water off ? with out a condenser.
For starters, you'll only reasonably be able to reach a concentration of around 70% acid before you start losing a large portion of your acid in the boiling process (and the required temperatures get dangerously high).
I'm unsure as to whether the lead would crystallise at that point. It seems like lead sulfate is still reasonably soluble in 80% H2SO4, so it'd be unlikely that boiling it down would be able to remove the lead.
@@ScrapScience ok cool.
Thanks for replying mate. Look forward for next video. Cheers.
Can you do some sodium by electrolysing a salty solution of glycerol ?
i dont know but you can make Lithium with electrolysis of disolved lithiumchloride in pyridin.
I NEED TO INCREMENT FROM 35% TO 96 98% SOLFURIC ACID DO YOU HAVE SOME SUGGESTS?
*Lead Dioxide forming on the anode is correct. That is where your lead has ended up.*
how do you distill it? do you get pure sulfuric acid after that?
I'm no expert on how to distil sulfuric acid, but yes, it will give you pure acid after distillation.
If you want a guide on how to do it, you can just search 'distillation of sulfuric acid' in the CZcams search bar. There are plenty of good videos on the topic.
You can synthesize sulfuric acid by replacing the sulfuric acid in a lead acid battery with epsom salt after you have charged it. Simply discharge the battery rinse out electrolyte and replace with distilled water. After charging the battery remove the liquid and you will have sulfuric acid. Repeat as needed. You can substitute the magnesium sulfate with ammonium sulfate as well. Another method to synthesize sulfuric acid, is to electrolyze magnesium sulfate with the anode isolated in a clay pot. This traps the sulfuric acid within the clay pot.
Nope. "Fred Wehmeyer, Senior VP of Engineering at U.S. Battery, has more than 50 years of experience in rechargeable battery design and development. He says that many of these hacks claim to show some type of improvement, but the gains shown may simply be artificial. One of the more common ones is adding Epsom salt to the battery cells. According to Wehmeyer, adding Epsom salt (magnesium sulfate) to a lead-acid battery will ‘artificially’ increase the specific gravity reading (SG), but because it does not increase the sulfuric acid concentration, it does nothing to improve battery performance.
“This is because the sulfates in the Epsom salt are tied up as magnesium sulfate and are not available for discharge to lead sulfate as the sulfates in sulfuric acid are,” said Wehmeyer. “If you filled a new lead battery with a magnesium sulfate solution instead of sulfuric acid electrolyte, it would have no capacity at all.” Simply put, adding Epsom salt will not recover the battery capacity but does “artificially” increase the SG.
According to Wehmeyer, the result would be similar if you remove the dilute electrolyte from a discharged and/or sulfated battery and refill it with the electrolyte for a fully charged battery (usually 1.270). The specific gravity will be higher, but the battery plates are still discharged and/or sulfated. Doing this will probably kill a potentially recoverable battery."
You don't want magnesium ions in your battery.
Before extract acid from dead battery, is better over recarge for 3 days.
Add H2O2, give it a good boil, oxidize PbS to PbSO4 and filter?
The tiny amount of lead in solution is already in the form of PbSO4, so this won't do much I'm afraid.
i think they use industrial H2S gas for Sulfuric acid purification. Every sulfate will be reduced to inoluble sulfide.
You could filter it with sand using sand as a filter in a funnel .you could buy a vacum chamber and Distil it vacum chamber only need 80 degree to distill
Would centrifugation work ? Lead sulfate density is 6.3, sulfuric acid is 1.8
Centrifugation can't remove things that are in solution, so I'm afraid not.
Ion exchange, fractional distillation, vacuum distillation, vacuum filtration, special lead filters, coffee filters - those will work the best.
Can you make powerful dry cell batteries from scrap?
The patents on making nickel-hydroxide-oxide electrodes for a nickel-iron battery are well-expired. Great for solar systems, as it's fine to over-drain or over-charge... wet cell though.
Can a much larger surface area of stainless steel electrodes do a better job?
Stainless steel electrodes may find use as a cathode, I'm not sure of their effectiveness though. However, they will dissolve and corrode away as an anode material.
@@ScrapScience I am aware of that. It seems the same thing happened to the carbon electrode, and I am wondering if the s.s. might be more robust, to allow the process to continue long enough to remove a higher amount of lead.
Thank you for responding, your expertise is invaluable.👍
While it's true that the carbon electrode also corrodes, the great thing about carbon is that you can just filter the resulting dust out of the solution, without actually contaminating your acid sample.
With stainless steel, the corrosion will result in iron and chromium salts leaching into solution, giving you a worse problem than the lead contamination that you started with. In acidic conditions, the corrosion of stainless steel is surprisingly (and annoyingly) fast.
Can you make a video on making Potassium/Sodium chlorate using lead dioxide anode,by using your Flower pot diaphragm method ??
I'm actually working on a video about making potassium chlorate with an MMO anode right now, which should be finished in a week or so.
I don't think I'll be working with lead dioxide in the near future I'm afraid.
What's your reasoning behind using a diaphragm though? As far as I know, chlorate production works fine without it.
@@ScrapScience as because the lead dioxide electrode got corroded in KCl solution,during electrolysis .
Doesn’t some of the metal come over with distillation? I work in the cannabis industry and I’m told that cadmium and other metals pass through the short path distillation process for producing oils.
This is only true when the metals are present in the form of organometallic compounds. Inorganic metal contamination generally won't come over with distillation, so in this case, distillation is an excellent method of purifying the acid.
Lead sulfate is about the lowest solubility in dilute acid you can get. Which is what you probably have there. Filtration would be enough to get it all out.
It is soluble in concentrated sulphuric acid, which is not what you have there.
Alright I've got a bit of a stupid question. Couldn't you just boil the acid down and precipitate the lead that way as the dissolved lead sulfate shouldn't be very soluble in concentrated H2SO4. It definitely wouldn't get rid of all the lead but it'd be a good start i guess.
I was thinking the same. Boiling it down is pretty simple and a lot safer than full distillation. Solubility of lead sulphate is pretty low (40mg/l or so in water according to vikipedia and pubchem). With low solubility product I'd assume even less lead due to lots of sulphate ions due to the acid.
A quick chek indicated PbSO4 would react to lead hydrogensulphate in consentrated sulphuric acid (like 80%) according to some sources.. Didn't check solubility of that in water (or if that is soluble in sulphuric acid as the solvent).
Test strips indicating something like 20g/l seem to be way off, much more than saturated solution of PbSO4. I wonder where there is a mistake here.
Not a stupid question at all, I was actually going to mention this in the video, but I forgot...
The solubility of lead sulfate is very complicated when you have an acidified solution (especially in acid concentrations like this). Standard solubility figures and solubility products are completely useless because the lead is able to form a much more soluble complex with the bisulfate ion in acidic conditions. So, with concentrated acid, it's entirely possible that lead sulfate could still be reasonably soluble.
If we assume that boiling down the solution could yield a concentration of ~70% H2SO4 (which is a pretty reasonable limit if we're just boiling it down on a hot plate), lead sulfate will definitely still be quite soluble under these conditions.
As you've said, it definitely won't remove all the lead, but it might remove some.
@@ScrapScience Boil it and get it as concentrated as you can and then chill the concentrated acid to further precipitate the lead out.
@@ScrapScience what electrodes will be best for this purpose will copper and brass do or copper and copper
@@ScrapScience u once suggested that concentrating the acid and chilling to get the lead precipitated will this precipitate much lead than electrolysis’
if there's any lead present in the solution, try using concentrated sulfuric acid to for lead sulfate and then filter the lead sulfate out of the solution and then your solution should be lead free, it's very important to use concentrated sulfuric acid
The whole point of this is to obtain concentrated H2SO4...
Isn't lead actually sulfate insoluble?
Mostly, yes. However, it’s very slightly soluble under standard conditions. Additionally, with sulfuric acid in solution too, lead can actually form a much more soluble complex with the bisulfate species.
There’s not much in there, but there’s enough for me to be concerned about contamination.
@@ScrapScience
Well, I do see your concerns. Hadn't expected an answer, honestly. Apprecieates that you put your effort into it. :)
I actually had searched "scrap science" on purpose, cause I'm a huge fan of recycling and upcycling what's at hand. Don't like when stuff goes to waste, and have always missed a channel where chemistry is put to use.
I've actually been researching the topic of lead acid batteries and sulfuric acid for the last couple of days, trying to come up with a method of simply performing these reactions in the battery itself; thus far I've learned not to trust chemical balancers as these just balance equations, and these reactions not neccessarily can be achieved (for example, Na2SO4 + SiO2 resulting with H2SO4 and some metasillicate).
However, it is feasible to refill a battery with distilled water and recharge it if possible before attempting the acid recovery; but I think its better to filter the electrolyte before rechargin, as there is a chance some larger crystals had fallen off the plate. Then you can refill back and charge.
I'd probably flush the electrolyte at a charged battery and refill with distilled water and some epsom to perform a second flush, but not sure of the results.
Thanks for the content.
Is every battery acid sulfuric acid?
When it’s a lead-acid battery, then yes, the acid is always sulfuric acid.
In the case of car batteries, they’re pretty much all lead acid batteries, but some designs have the acid soaked into fabric sheets within the cells, making it near impossible to remove.
Either way, if a car battery has liquid inside, it’s definitely sulfuric acid.
@@ScrapScience thanks, i have two small batterys from a motorcycle and they have a Pb sign and have a kind of liquid in them
@@ScrapScience What about gel 12v batteries? They are lead and.. gel? What's the gel made up of? Makes for a more robust battery.. but from science perspective.. how? and what? can be made of them?
The solubility of lead in sulfuric acid should be very low (for normal spilled acid, but I realize you poured this out of a battery and hence it could be higher). You may not have actually had much lead in there in the first place. If you look at reviews of Vansful test stripes, they can suffer from false positives. If you're going to test, I would use a better quality test kit like 3M. Or find a place to rent an XRF machine (our city provides them for free to check homes).
Fwiw, I did a bunch of research into the lead content of electrolyte at one point and couldn't find much evidence that electrolyte has a lot of lead.
Electrolyte leakage is very, very common in batteries (e.g. those orange stains under golf carts) and if there is a lot of lead content in them, it would pose a significant environmental hazard. I don't think there is however.
any lead sulfate was filtered out earlier in the process since it is insoluble in water
Only the particles big enough to filter out.
👍👍🌹🌹😁
Its around 11%
Isnt lead sulfate is insoluble🤔
Most things that we call 'insoluble' simply have solubilities that are very low (but not zero). This is the case here.
@@ScrapScience 0.0032 g/100 mL (15 °C)
0.0404 g/100 mL (25 °C)
Ура
Ehhhh... Aren't you actually supposed to dillute it?
Remove lead and add carbon dust 😂😂
20g/L is not possible. The maximum solubility of lead sulfate in sulfuric acid is 3.87mg/L at 25C and 25% acid according to jresv22n1pp55_A1b.pdf from nist. Concentrating the acid above 50% and cooling to 0C leaves unmeasurable lead in solution according to the paper. Common ion effect forces it out.
You content is excellent. However the presentation needs to be refined. I would suggest to add some animation with actual experiments to make the videos more interesting and user friendly