I know that others have commented on this topic but every program revealed the elegant way the panel members and guests are dressed as well as their general manner.
It's interesting that Arlene and Dorothy seemed to have switched spots to allow Dorothy to put a personal spin on the introduction of Bennet, with her daughter starting working for him.
Saw Van Johnson in a Broadway musical in 1985 and he looked and sang just as well as ever. I miss all of these lovely people, it was a wonderfully produced show.
yes I saw in La Cage Aux Folles as well that year. That was really the first time he publicly acknowledged his homosexuality. It must have been incredibly liberating for him. As a young man, Johnson had a bad car accident and sustained serious injuries across his forehead. Other than in The Caine Mutiny, he used a great deal of makeup in his films to hide it. On this occasion, the extensive scars are clearly visible.
It doesn't matter if you saw him in 1985. You must see him in the 1940s to be a true fan. You are not a true fan but a wanna be born in gen x who never experienced the diamond age of america from the 1920s to the 1940s.
This show first aired on my birthday! 🥰🥰🥰 I was 4 years old and my parents loved this show, and I was a star struck girl loving those elegant clothes! I'm still the same and grateful to be able to watch these!
Miss Bonnaviat (now Carol Bonnaviat Brady) doesn't seem to have kept up with judo. She did graduate from high school, though (that year), and went on to Washington College (in Maryland). And was named as Miss Junior Achievement, 1961. She and her fellow Halloween monarch got married at some point, and why their high school had Halloween monarchs and not Homecoming, I do not know. Maybe both? Anyway, the point is, she has five kids and some grandkids, modeled for awhile, worked in the Westchester County Sherriff's Department, and was in real estate, which is what she eventually retired from. Is alive and presumably well, and living in Long Island.
She sadly passed away on June 14, 2017 at the age of 74. It appears she suffered from dementia in her later life. easthamptonstar.com/Obituaries/2017622/Carol-Frances-Brady
I think Joey, and his deadpan facial expression is a riot, and look forward to episodes where he's on the panel. On the other hand; Jonathan Winters, whom alot of folks consider a comic genius, has always put me off. Just a matter of taste.
Disagree. Joey is always deadpan, sure, but he's always trying to crack jokes and then waits and waits until the audience laughs. He's so annoying. See he just cracks jokes and doesn't play the game
@moontheloon5 - I like the comedy of both Bishop and Winters, but Winters is beyond a doubt one of the great comic geniuses of all time. This is my field, so I know of the critical understanding of and acclaim for his work. However, Winters did not always possess a stable psyche due to his genius. And it can be said that his work is not something everyone need like. Genius and artistry are not a matter of taste, but what one can tolerate or enjoy certainly is. This show had several of the great comic masters of all time on it, including Fred Allen and Steve Allen. They all had quite different styles and other gifts in addition to their comedic genius. One need not like all of them. The French have given Jerry Lewis all of their highest awards for his work and he was good, but there are those Americans who fail to see what was so uniquely wonderful about him to them. And then there are those who are especially gifted in their fields who are not nice people at all. You are allowed to have your funny bone tickled as you like.
Bishop in his early luscious period. He appeared quite often in 1960-1961 on WML and was certainly one of the most funny guest panelists of this period. One of the more embarrassing of the mystery guest sequences. Age. Character parts. Cluelessness. Marriage status. He expression suggests that he wanted to be anywhere than here.
It's taken me a while to warm up to Joey Bishop as a panelist-- mostly due to his overplaying being dumb when he so clearly isn't-- but by this point, I consider him one of the best guest panelists.
@@WhatsMyLine This was when Bishop was at the height of his schmooziness with Sinatra's Clan; he is first on the scene in 'Ocean's 11', but as always his job is to ring up the curtain for the big names. Privately Frank thought Joey was little more than a mechanical gag machine who traded too much on his association with more gifted pals. A few years later Bishop asked an outrageous sum to warm up a concert and Sinatra exiled him ruthlessly, like Peter Lawford. Bishop spent years brooding and complaining about being banished, and did not retain too many friends in the business.
@QuadMochaMatti I agree. Those guys wasted so much time trying to be funny that it affected the pacing of the show. Jokes are great, but guest panelists like Steve Allen and even Victor Borge knew how to make the joke and move on rather than grind the show to a halt every time the question came around to them.
As a young man, Van Johnson was seriously injured in a car accident. He suffered extensive injuries across his forehead. Except for The Caine Mutiny, because of the character he played, he used heavy makeup to cover his scars. In this appearance, either due to lighting or a decision not to use as much makeup, his scars are quite visible.
This is the third show in a row in which Ms. Francis enters with her hands in the pockets of her dress. I'm wondering if the designer(s) asked her to do so, in order to advertise the pockets as part of the design.
I've noticed that the fashions and hairstyles have changed a good deal in this past year of 1960. The hair is starting to pile up on the top of Dorothy's head, instead of hanging in a more girlish style.
The new change to Studio 52 has the panel making their entrances from stage left for the very first time instead of stage right. This would remain their standard protocol for entering for the remainder of the show's run.
In Light in the Piazza, Olivia deHavilland plays a Mrs. Johnson and the running joke that everyone in Europe asks if she's related to Van. She isn't, but eventually gives up and says she is.
This episode got me to wondering... what would the $50 the contestants won in 1960 be worth in today's money. So I looked it up... $508.18! All this time I thought... they're winning a measly $50. But the $50 went a long way back then. Lol.
Is it my imagination, is it the lighting/makeup or...do Joey Bishop's ears look big and very white and the rest of his face dark and tanned? To me, this is very evident at 13:13
John asks where he was from 3 times. Isn't John given a write up on the guest so he would know exactly how to pronounce the name of the town the guest was from?
Paper money wears out in circulation -- it gets creased, wrinkled, torn, faded, stained, limp...and is no longer fit for use. So it is destroyed and replaced with freshly printed bills. Burning was probably the simplest effective way to be sure that the old bills were really destroyed.
They used videotape for a handful of prerecorded shows a year after 1959, but WML was a live program. It was preserved on kinescopes because videotape was astronomically more expensive back then, and no one expected the programs to ever be shown again.
The high cost, that makes sense. News broadcasters were using film into the 1970s because of the costs. CBS threw out most of their radio and TV shows. Most available today were preserved by the armed forces who made copies for overseas broadcast. Apparently there are a few military landfills which have several tapes and film. Who knows what may turn up some day?.
Remember, too, that they had gotten into the kinescope habit when the show began in 1950, not only for archiving but because TV wasn't yet broadcast live coast-to-coast, so stations that were too far from New York would have to show it on a delayed schedule from kinescope film. I'm not sure when all stations got live network feed via coaxial cable and microwave relay, but even if this was complete by 1960, the idea of making a copy to keep still meant kinescope just because that was how it had always been done, the technology was in place and not too expensive. Videotape was only for time-shifting a broadcast, for instance recording a show in advance to be broadcast on a holiday or while someone was going to be out of town. The tape would be erased and reused after the broadcast. And yes, they would kinescope the tape playback from the studio monitor while it was being broadcast. You can see a few videotape artifacts on the films of these prerecorded shows.
I have always been fascinated with Van Johnson's portrayal of a straight male. I am sure he did it for commercial reasons and as a sign of the times. He lived to be 90 I believe and in his later years became comfortable enough or the times changed, or both, that he could be himself. Loved his movies and always respected him.
Well, if you recall, he was in the Ratpack, buddies with Sinatra. Sinatra despised Kilgallen. It could explain why he is leaning so far over towards Arlene that it is hard to ignore. Seems like a jerk to me.
Arlene isn't wearing Martin's heart pendant. How often did John have to ask three times where a contestant lived? Joey looks as if he promised not to get too friendly with Sinatra's bete noire, Dorothy the 'chinless wonder'.
The lady judo instructor was cute...and reminds me of Barbara Parkins. Joey Bishop's ears are startlingly pale. Mr Hull didn't "deal in a product". Burning old money at the Federal Reserve Bank is 'providing a service". Daly often gets this aspect of giving information to the panel WRONG.
Ok I wonder what's up with Joey Bishop at the beginning of the show? Somber...sullen....when everyone smiles and laughs after Bennett zips up Arlene's dress, Joey looks downright pissed off. Not sure what happened, but he looked mad about something for sure
A comic with a persona that's somber and sullen. Yep, there's nothing that gets me roaring with laughter, more than a comedian with a depressing look on his face, and a somber sullen personality
Buster Keaton was a comedian when only an expression was the method of conveying laughter. Joey was a comedian in a completely different era. Also - was Joey's demeanour at the beginning of this episode, one that would convey laughter, happiness, mirth or joy? Something was up. He looked downright negative and not the least bit happy to be there.
Galileocan g Joey simply had a deadpan manner. He always did, not just here. You're entitled to find it off putting, I have no problem with that. But. . . if anything, your point about the importance of expression in silent films makes Buster's stone face even more noticeable and dramatic. In this respect he was the absolute polar opposite of Chaplin, whose expressiveness was a central part of his performing style.
![What's My Line? - Joey Bishop; Jack Lemmon [panel] (Nov 6, 1960)](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/tG9tN_ucdls/mqdefault.jpg)
![What's My Line? - Joey Bishop; Jack Lemmon [panel] (Nov 6, 1960)](/img/tr.png)
I know that others have commented on this topic but every program revealed the elegant way the panel members and guests are dressed as well as their general manner.
Wonderful watching these. Such a great group. Wish I could have met John Daly. What an endearing man.
@tml
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These videos are great fun to watch. Thanks so much for posting them.
Van Johnson was so easy to identiy Van Johnson's voice after his second "yeah" . So easy to identify him! WOW
I know -- I was shocked they couldn't guess him.
Nobody got Arlene’s quick-fire word play at 18:20. JCD: “This money’s no longer fit for circulation.” Arlene: “It’s counter-fit.”
It's interesting that Arlene and Dorothy seemed to have switched spots to allow Dorothy to put a personal spin on the introduction of Bennet, with her daughter starting working for him.
They traded seats often.
Saw Van Johnson in a Broadway musical in 1985 and he looked and sang just as well as ever. I miss all of these lovely people, it was a wonderfully produced show.
yes I saw in La Cage Aux Folles as well that year. That was really the first time he publicly acknowledged his homosexuality. It must have been incredibly liberating for him.
As a young man, Johnson had a bad car accident and sustained serious injuries across his forehead. Other than in The Caine Mutiny, he used a great deal of makeup in his films to hide it. On this occasion, the extensive scars are clearly visible.
No actor today can compare to the. Golden age
It doesn't matter if you saw him in 1985. You must see him in the 1940s to be a true fan. You are not a true fan but a wanna be born in gen x who never experienced the diamond age of america from the 1920s to the 1940s.
@@marcchevalier3750: Just because Mr. Combs saw him onstage in 1985 doesn't mean he didn't see him in the movies in the 1940s.
Oh, piss off.
Bishop is one of a kind. Cool and funny, in a dry way.
A beautiful new necklace for Arlene, and if she's wearing the heart necklace too, it is hidden.
Perhaps she should have worn something like this on the day that she was robbed of the heart pendant by the mugger.
Thank you for posting these videos!
Dorothy looks really pretty this evening.
This show first aired on my birthday! 🥰🥰🥰 I was 4 years old and my parents loved this show, and I was a star struck girl loving those elegant clothes! I'm still the same and grateful to be able to watch these!
You were WAY TOO YOUNG to watch these WML episodes which was telecast at 10:30PM, Sunday night, on CBS.
Live television... It was magical.
Miss Bonnaviat (now Carol Bonnaviat Brady) doesn't seem to have kept up with judo. She did graduate from high school, though (that year), and went on to Washington College (in Maryland). And was named as Miss Junior Achievement, 1961. She and her fellow Halloween monarch got married at some point, and why their high school had Halloween monarchs and not Homecoming, I do not know. Maybe both? Anyway, the point is, she has five kids and some grandkids, modeled for awhile, worked in the Westchester County Sherriff's Department, and was in real estate, which is what she eventually retired from. Is alive and presumably well, and living in Long Island.
She sadly passed away on June 14, 2017 at the age of 74. It appears she suffered from dementia in her later life. easthamptonstar.com/Obituaries/2017622/Carol-Frances-Brady
I thought Carol Brady had six kids.
It's kind of creepy that people would investigate otherwise unknown people like this. Mikset voi jättää heitä rauhaan?
oh Bennett! he just loves Arlene :)
Well, they are neighbors. So he can get away with zipping her up on live TV.
soulierinvestments
yes, they were :) so sweet how close their families were. and still are.
Lorna Badeo bbn
I wonder 🤔🤔🤔 if he would’ve of zipped up Dorothy!!
I think Joey, and his deadpan facial expression is a riot, and look forward to episodes where he's on the panel. On the other hand; Jonathan Winters, whom alot of folks consider a comic genius, has always put me off. Just a matter of taste.
moontheloon5 I really like Joey too.
same here-he owns deadpan-he was so funny on this show-but never snide or nasty. loved his mother-in-law quip.
Disagree. Joey is always deadpan, sure, but he's always trying to crack jokes and then waits and waits until the audience laughs. He's so annoying. See he just cracks jokes and doesn't play the game
@moontheloon5 - I like the comedy of both Bishop and Winters, but Winters is beyond a doubt one of the great comic geniuses of all time. This is my field, so I know of the critical understanding of and acclaim for his work. However, Winters did not always possess a stable psyche due to his genius. And it can be said that his work is not something everyone need like. Genius and artistry are not a matter of taste, but what one can tolerate or enjoy certainly is. This show had several of the great comic masters of all time on it, including Fred Allen and Steve Allen. They all had quite different styles and other gifts in addition to their comedic genius. One need not like all of them. The French have given Jerry Lewis all of their highest awards for his work and he was good, but there are those Americans who fail to see what was so uniquely wonderful about him to them. And then there are those who are especially gifted in their fields who are not nice people at all. You are allowed to have your funny bone tickled as you like.
@@philippapay4352 Thank you for that! Winters was a genius. Joey Bishop was a member of the Rat Pack, nearly as unique.
I had to rewatch at 18:27, when John Daly and the contestant stood up and bumped heads. It gets funnier after about the third time!
Holy cow! I didn't notice that until I read your comment. You're right, it gets funnier each time I watch it. Thanks for pointing it out!
Bishop in his early luscious period. He appeared quite often in 1960-1961 on WML and was certainly one of the most funny guest panelists of this period.
One of the more embarrassing of the mystery guest sequences. Age. Character parts. Cluelessness. Marriage status. He expression suggests that he wanted to be anywhere than here.
It's taken me a while to warm up to Joey Bishop as a panelist-- mostly due to his overplaying being dumb when he so clearly isn't-- but by this point, I consider him one of the best guest panelists.
But after his accident Van often looked anguished, whether he felt so or not.
@@WhatsMyLine This was when Bishop was at the height of his schmooziness with Sinatra's Clan; he is first on the scene in 'Ocean's 11', but as always his job is to ring up the curtain for the big names.
Privately Frank thought Joey was little more than a mechanical gag machine who traded too much on his association with more gifted pals. A few years later Bishop asked an outrageous sum to warm up a concert and Sinatra exiled him ruthlessly, like Peter Lawford. Bishop spent years brooding and complaining about being banished, and did not retain too many friends in the business.
Joey Bishop doesn't seem any better than Hal Block or Groucho Marx. All three were far less than ideal.
@QuadMochaMatti I agree. Those guys wasted so much time trying to be funny that it affected the pacing of the show. Jokes are great, but guest panelists like Steve Allen and even Victor Borge knew how to make the joke and move on rather than grind the show to a halt every time the question came around to them.
As a young man, Van Johnson was seriously injured in a car accident. He suffered extensive injuries across his forehead. Except for The Caine Mutiny, because of the character he played, he used heavy makeup to cover his scars. In this appearance, either due to lighting or a decision not to use as much makeup, his scars are quite visible.
I didn’t know that. Thank you for sharing
It was during the filming of A Guy Named Joe. The studio wanted to recast. Spencer Tracy threatened to walk, so they waited for Van to heal.
How wonderful ❤️
Daly always had trouble pronouncing Lake Ronkonkoma. I'm not sure why, but this is at least the second time he blew it.
I can't even pronounce it how come?
When I lived there, my mom pronounced it with the accent on the third syllable.
Dorothy made her entrance as though she was shoved in. I've noticed that on many occasions.
She just walked that way.
Van Johnson appeared so tall that i looked up his height..i was surprised to see he was only 6' 1"
And light on his feet when he danced.
Arlene always with Appropriate complement in way to lift someone up.
compliment
Fun to watch and commercial free :)
Ironically as Joey Bishop said, the "lucky son of a gun" won $50
This is the third show in a row in which Ms. Francis enters with her hands in the pockets of her dress. I'm wondering if the designer(s) asked her to do so, in order to advertise the pockets as part of the design.
Van Johnson mentioned being i Damn Yankees in Wallingford,CT. THAT WOULD BE the old Oakdale Theatre. At that time it was a the a tre in the round.
Daly: "This money does not fit for circulation anymore."
Arlene: "It is counter "fit"" Talk of being quickwitted!!
"burns money" well that's my line too
Carol Bonnaviat is so sweet and pretty, hard to believe that she is a Judo Instructor. She must have a lot of students.
The panel could have guessed for hours and not figured out the money burning man LOL
I never knew Joey Bishop could be so funny! I really knew nothing about him.
He was on OCEAN'S ELEVEN and other "rat pack" movies, starred in a situation comedy program and a late night talk show (like The Tonight Show) on ABC.
I've seen Brigadoon a dozen times and I would have recognized his voice right off. When he says: "Yeah"
Joey Bishop’s real name was Joseph Abraham Gottlieb.
I've noticed that the fashions and hairstyles have changed a good deal in this past year of 1960. The hair is starting to pile up on the top of Dorothy's head, instead of hanging in a more girlish style.
The new change to Studio 52 has the panel making their entrances from stage left for the very first time instead of stage right. This would remain their standard protocol for entering for the remainder of the show's run.
Very surprised the panelists didn't guess Van Johnson. I thought he did a very mediocre job of disguising his voice.
In the 1949 MGM musical "On the Town," Ann Miller sings in "Prehistoric Man" about "Mrs. Johnson's blonde boy Van"
In Light in the Piazza, Olivia deHavilland plays a Mrs. Johnson and the running joke that everyone in Europe asks if she's related to Van. She isn't, but eventually gives up and says she is.
Love that dress that the judo instructor is wearing. I wouldn’t wear one, but she looks great in it.
Well at least John didn't say "You've done quite well tonight panel," as he so often does even when, like tonight, they haven't.
The audience gives it away too soon.
This episode got me to wondering... what would the $50 the contestants won in 1960 be worth in today's money. So I looked it up... $508.18! All this time I thought... they're winning a measly $50. But the $50 went a long way back then. Lol.
In 1960 candy cost 10¢, soda cost 10¢, ice cream cost 10¢, a slice of cheese pizza cost 10-15¢ and the NYC subway fare (token) was 15¢.
Smell-O-Vision was only used once and that was in Peter Lorre’s movie. Time Magazine listed it as one of the top 100 worst ideas of all time.
It was used in Polyester too.
Is it my imagination, is it the lighting/makeup or...do Joey Bishop's ears look big and very white and the rest of his face dark and tanned? To me, this is very evident at 13:13
At different times all the men have looked like that. I think they should have added. Makeup to their ears.
John asks where he was from 3 times. Isn't John given a write up on the guest so he would know exactly how to pronounce the name of the town the guest was from?
LOL Joey - You are clearly not a prize fighter
I always wanted to know; what is the PURPOSE of burning money?
Plus Dorothy looks really pretty "tonight"
Paper money wears out in circulation -- it gets creased, wrinkled, torn, faded, stained, limp...and is no longer fit for use. So it is destroyed and replaced with freshly printed bills. Burning was probably the simplest effective way to be sure that the old bills were really destroyed.
This episode looks like it was filmed via Kinescope. Does anyone know why they weren't using video tape yet in the new Studio 52?
They used videotape for a handful of prerecorded shows a year after 1959, but WML was a live program. It was preserved on kinescopes because videotape was astronomically more expensive back then, and no one expected the programs to ever be shown again.
The high cost, that makes sense. News broadcasters were using film into the 1970s because of the costs. CBS threw out most of their radio and TV shows. Most available today were preserved by the armed forces who made copies for overseas broadcast. Apparently there are a few military landfills which have several tapes and film. Who knows what may turn up some day?.
Remember, too, that they had gotten into the kinescope habit when the show began in 1950, not only for archiving but because TV wasn't yet broadcast live coast-to-coast, so stations that were too far from New York would have to show it on a delayed schedule from kinescope film. I'm not sure when all stations got live network feed via coaxial cable and microwave relay, but even if this was complete by 1960, the idea of making a copy to keep still meant kinescope just because that was how it had always been done, the technology was in place and not too expensive. Videotape was only for time-shifting a broadcast, for instance recording a show in advance to be broadcast on a holiday or while someone was going to be out of town. The tape would be erased and reused after the broadcast. And yes, they would kinescope the tape playback from the studio monitor while it was being broadcast. You can see a few videotape artifacts on the films of these prerecorded shows.
Greedy execs. Those bastards!
In the second contestant why is burning money considered to be a product it’s a service on a product
I am surprised brown belters can qualify as judo instructor.
my judo instructor was six Dan black belter from Kodokan from Japan
Joey Bishop was about as funny as a prostate gland infection!Now that's funny!
The walls behind the panel look different. That's the only thing I can tell that is different with the studio change.
There are quite different acoustics. A larger studio? Or did they change to different microphones?
Rikard Peterson Different acoustics in this new studio. (CBS Studio 52)
The acoustics are markedly better. It's something of a relief.
Arlene arrives with her dress unzipped and JCD says immediately after, that any mistakes are his fault. You extrapolate the meaning of that.
I have always been fascinated with Van Johnson's portrayal of a straight male.
I am sure he did it for commercial reasons and as a sign of the times.
He lived to be 90 I believe and in his later years became comfortable enough or the times changed, or both, that he could be himself.
Loved his movies and always respected him.
Van Johnson lived to 92, actually. There's a great book on him called MGM's Golden Boy if you're interested.
I saw him in La Cage in 1985. That must have been very liberating for him.
Money and garbage, two of the most befuddlingly fun products on WML.
i liked johnson in the caine mutiny.....
He was scared of that first one wasn't he? 🤭
The First Guest here Looks a bit like Terry Moore ,! o.O
You mean Joe Young
Brat pack Joey Fisher. Just need the others to make it complete
Do you mean Rat Pack Joey Bishop?
Well, if you recall, he was in the Ratpack, buddies with Sinatra. Sinatra despised Kilgallen. It could explain why he is leaning so far over towards Arlene that it is hard to ignore. Seems like a jerk to me.
Joey Bishop's ears look extremely weird.
Most of the males in that spot have funny looking ears. The lighting? No makeup on the ears?
avoid the edibles...
Van appears to not be wearing any makeup. You can really see his forehead scars from his terrible car accident many years earlier.
Kudos to John Charles Daly for having deciphered so many barely legible signatures
He ALREADY KNEW the name of all the contestants from his notes.
Arlene isn't wearing Martin's heart pendant.
How often did John have to ask three times where a contestant lived?
Joey looks as if he promised not to get too friendly with Sinatra's bete noire, Dorothy the 'chinless wonder'.
JUDO INSTRUCTOR
BURNS MONEY
The lady judo instructor was cute...and reminds me of Barbara Parkins.
Joey Bishop's ears are startlingly pale.
Mr Hull didn't "deal in a product". Burning old money at the Federal Reserve Bank is 'providing a service". Daly often gets this aspect of giving information to the panel WRONG.
3:00 creeeeppyyy...
Ok I wonder what's up with Joey Bishop at the beginning of the show? Somber...sullen....when everyone smiles and laughs after Bennett zips up Arlene's dress, Joey looks downright pissed off. Not sure what happened, but he looked mad about something for sure
Joey Bishop was a "stone faced" comic so it's not unusual for him to be "somber....sullen"...........that's his persona.
A comic with a persona that's somber and sullen. Yep, there's nothing that gets me roaring with laughter, more than a comedian with a depressing look on his face, and a somber sullen personality
Galileocan g I guess you're not a big fan of Buster Keaton's, then. . . and if so, what a shame.
Buster Keaton was a comedian when only an expression was the method of conveying laughter. Joey was a comedian in a completely different era. Also - was Joey's demeanour at the beginning of this episode, one that would convey laughter, happiness, mirth or joy? Something was up. He looked downright negative and not the least bit happy to be there.
Galileocan g Joey simply had a deadpan manner. He always did, not just here. You're entitled to find it off putting, I have no problem with that. But. . . if anything, your point about the importance of expression in silent films makes Buster's stone face even more noticeable and dramatic. In this respect he was the absolute polar opposite of Chaplin, whose expressiveness was a central part of his performing style.
I don't understand why people think Joey Bishop is funny.
He IS FUNNY or he would not be popular for decades