HOW TO MAKE MORE HP : CAM SWAP A SUPERCHARGED 3800 L32/L67. MAKE MORE HP AT LOWER BOOST. DIY, LOW $.
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- čas přidán 28. 09. 2021
- HOW MUCH POWER IS A CAM WORTH? SUPERCHARGED V6 CAM SWAP. HOW TO MAKE MORE POWER WITH LESS BOOST. DOES A SUPERCHARGED 3800 V6 RESPOND TO A CAM UPGRADE? HOW MUCH POWER DOES IT ADD? WHAT HAPPENS TO THE BOOST PRESSURE WHEN YOU SWAP THE CAM? HOW HOT ARE THE IATS? WHAT ABOUT EGTS? CHECK OUT THIS VIDEO ON THE RESULTS OF A CAM SWAP ON A SUPERCHARGED SERIES 3, 3800 L32 V6 (WORKS ON L67 TOO)! CHECK OUT THE POWER GAINS OFFERED BY THE CAM SWAP, THE CHANGE IN BOOST, THE CHARGE TEMP AND EGTs. BOTH CAMS WERE RUN ON E85. NOTHING LIKE JUNKYARD POWER.
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Love that people are working with The forgotten but not un loved 3.8 V6. The big issue here as we all know is the glass transmission. In the day when I had my MKIII VR6 Jetta(n/a highly modded cams, BVH/P&P, intake manifold, etc.)I always thought The GTP was a beast.
Richard, thanks for continuing to explore options on the 3800 engine. With how far our community has pushed them, it's fun to see some comparisons of various things at different levels.
Those 3800's can take some abuse, but need some mods to support higher horsepower builds. ZZPerformance sells a modified oil pump spring that helps keep the oil pressure up. Ring gaps are too tight from the factory and need to be opened up to support higher boost levels. Throw on an intercooler and the motors make great power. I run solid 12's with mine on pump gas and a conservative tune so I don't blow the transmission.
Put that thing on e it’ll go 11s
Great point! What transmission could be used, as option? Thanks!
@@dogdue4588check out LS4 King. He is doing 4T80 swaps
@@420architecMindNDesignfact! I put my Monte SS on E85 and it consistently runs mid 11s on street tires with 18 inch wheels
@@MurdamittenGstock transmission? 😮
Thank you for talking about these motors. They are great.
Really cool video. Appreciate all of the editing, dyno of engine and how you showed how you changed the cam yourself. Keep it up!
That rising boost curve after 5000 rpm might mean you need some ported heads along with more cam. Looking forward to seeing the water or meth injection results!
Yeh when you max these blowers the boost dives down. Been there.
I’m looking forward to a bigger cam. To flatten the boost curve. If it does it without head changes it could be a great cheap easy 400 hp engine.
I think he already had installed the pkrted heads earlier but didn't see improved results with the standard cam and high boost
All these videos and the priceless info in them i love it. These other guys engines even better, and even better still you're testing using E85, water meth and mods that drop boost/charge temps but up in output its like dyno video heaven. keep em coming.
Best show yet, #Rich ... Best sounding 3800 that I've ever heard, even though there was more horse power to be had. Can't wait see you break 400 horses with basically this same setup - no turbo. 💚
Finally I’ve been waiting for this really hoping for a Big Bang
Richard, you should check out some of our Aussie builds. Quite a few 400+whp setups and even one that has cracked the 500whp mark on a gen3 m90.
Even got a guy pushing close to 600whp from memory with a larger yt 2300 blower.
Hit up brushworks slick sixes for their cam and ported blower. Best in Australia with our l67s
500 whp seems like a lot from a gen 3 m90
@@richardholdener1727 czcams.com/video/VBlKkk3haT8/video.html
I got 404 whp with a gen5 setup. Never seen it in the states with a gen3. That’s what’s up
Richard,
You have got to rebuild that motor and port the blower and heads. That would be cool to see.
Facts
As always I learned a lot , one thing for certain I'm going to wrap the longtube headers on my heads , cam intake LS1 even though it is na , it will be fun to compare before & after temps , thanks Richard......
Always have been a fan of the 3800. They make good power and are reliable. If I get my hands on something that needs a GM v6 swap I will get my hands on one.
I used to want an intrigue with a gtp swap, I feel like that would make an awesome sleeper while still being a comfortable sedan.
I also really like my snow wmi kit. I have the "stage 2.5" on 2 of my turbo cars.
One of them is mounted on the outlet of the intercooler and gets to ambient and sometimes under.
Too bad the 3800 didn't hold up for more testing.
Oh, Richard. the Fiero and gm front wheel drive are going to love you for this...
As a guy that messes with these in Australia, ported heads are where you'll pick up the most power, stock heads run out of na flow at 180whp
I could use some advice.
@@stevewarnock919 ask away
Which is better for supercharging, the series one or two vn engine, also I'm really unsure about the manifold I can use as I have a Yella Terra charger with reverse snout. Any info is much appreciated.
@@stevewarnock919 in order to supercharge the vn 3800/L27 you would need a series 1 l67 manifold from the states, the only difference between series 1 and 2 vn engines other than the intake/pcv stuff is rear main seal type and the cam and cam gear/retention, I prefer the series 2
I'm happy with this . Great engine .
When you get the heads off, get the guide posts machined down so you can get .600 lift in there. A cam in the 230s with .580ish lift will net some decent gains. Especially turbo.
Be nice, to see this engine, with hand porting to heads , intake and supercharger.
great vid no fault on that , shows the useral a mild cam and longtube headers goes a long way ;)
I come across these SC's about once a year at my pick and pull and always think I'm getting something crazy for the money ($50) but then I end up getting rid of them a few months later for like $80-100 since I don't have any small displacement motors
Mace Engineering makes a stroker kit for the L32/L67. It would be interesting to see how that does. Increases displacement to 4.2L.
I bought that same valve compressor tool about 20 yrs ago
Love the shirt Richard!
BA DUM
This is all good information for me. I need to know this.
Love thisss!! 🤘🏻🤘🏻🤘🏻
Running 15psi using a 2.9 pulley. Had to add a intercooler and ice box. I always tell people if they race a supercharged 3800 car and lose just keep trying cause the more heat the slower they get. The second run is never as fast as the first. One hit wonder engines, atleast with the non intercooled m90. GM never shoulda let these engines leave non intercooled.
I mean for any real performance probably not but I'm sure it's better than the N/A version
Definitely excited to see the water meth testing 👍
Ya that always seems like a good idea for a roots blower especially if not intercooled
Richard -very cool t-shirt
I want a racing cup where everyone puts these in some crazy f1 looking kit cars
Them 3.8s are sleepers!! My brothers and I bought a gtp off the auction and we have it on a 150shot and e85 and that thing is unexpected on the streets
Great video Richard! Any correlation between ignition timing and EGTs. I understand the timing was tuned for max HP, however I question if more timing (30deg+) would reduce the EGTs/glowing headers. Thank you.
USUALLY IT DOES DECREASE EGT WITH MORE TIMING BUT 30 DEGREES UNDER BOOST IS NOT GOOD
Can you do a test on a stock S/C 3800 with the rocker arm upgrade?
If you can drop those IAT's can you throw more timing at it and drop those EGT's even further? Man, I was worried about my blower car seeing 120°F IAT but after seeing this I am quite pleased haha.
Would love to see a test of a w2a intercooler.
Need to do one of these videos with the ford 4.2l v6
Since buying an l67 I’ve figured you don’t buy them for power unless you’re ready to spend more than what it would cost to just block off the pulley and run a turbo through it
@Richard, would you be willing to try upgrading the bearings in the block that spun one? I was part of a group of dudes in high school who were really into these engines and we found the stock crank bearings to be a limiting factor. If I remember correctly, we were using Clevites.
(Clevites being the ones that held up to abuse)
Could you run LS rockers on the 3800? If I’m right the LS has a better ratio like 1.6 rather than 1.5
Hi 👋 👋 👋 👋 Richard anyway I thought the test went well. But I was wondering if you would of used a cam bushing so you could advance the cam 12 degrees. And if it is advanced to much you can go into the programming of the factory complex and adjust it. This is only an idea only. I have no idea if it would work. Oh can't wait until you do the next test on that engine thanks Ray
WE DON'T USE A FACTORY ECU-12 DEGREES ADVANCE WOULD BE ALOT
Richard, I watched a video awhile back and you made me see the light. It was the clone gt45 on a 302....which I bought. Towards the end you said stop worrying and do it. Well, I'm doing it. I still have questions though. My windsor already has Icon pistons, eagle rods, it's probably just getting skip white heads this time around. I plan to tear it back down and add gap. It is currently 10.5:1 if I remember correctly and I'd like to think cam choice would play a part in keeping it alive (duration, cyl pressure etc). I have two roller cams on the shelf, Recommendation? Thanks
Application: 1985-2001 FORD 302 HO, 1994-1997 FORD 351W
Brand: Erson Cams
Cam Type: HYDRAULIC ROLLER
CID: 302, 351
Duration @ .050: 226/234
Duration Advertised: 294/302
Grind Number: RH-294-2A
Gross Lift: .544/.544
Lobe Center: 110
RPM Range: 3000-6700
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SKU: TFS-51403004
Trick Flow Specialties Stage 4 Track Max Hydraulic Roller Camshaft for 302/351w Ford
Rough idle, strong top-end power
Basic Operating RPM Range - 3,000-7,00 RPM
Aftermarket intake, heads, and headers recommended
3,000-3,500 rpm stall converter, 3.90 to 4.11 gears recommended
Duration @ .050" - 242°/246°
Valve Lift with 1.6 Rocker - .595/.595
Lobe Separation - 110°
SMALL CAM
Great video would like to see the gains of 1.9 rockers on stock cam if would get you 20hp gain as cam gets you 40hp ?
It would probably be more like the down low power gain because it is really only increasing lift not duration so probably wouldn't make as dramatic of a difference up top
I wonder if you could put this supercharger one the 292?
The thing I would really like to know is how this would affect MPG. Doing dyno work is always cool to see the results but we all know, we don't run our engines at WOT under max load all the time. Yes getting more peak HP and TQ makes us smile and maybe something else un mentionable but we need to be emissions minded, and mileage minded as well. Then there is the issue of dependability also as this video brings out. Who wants or can deal with knocking bearings and cranks out frequently. For Richard to be able to just go out and source another engine to grenade is fine for him I guess but eventually it will come when they are not so easy to find, even though they were produced along the comparison of the VW Beetle.
how you drive changes MPG
Hey Richard. I was wondering if it would be possible to stroke the 3.8. Platform? When I was attending wyotech in 2013, I was really wanting to see if a gm 3.8 v6 could be stroked. We did some math and found out that with a .30 over bore. A cam and crank from a 4.3 v6 it could be possible. Then I wanted to see if it would be possible to twin turbo the engine. Let me know if you could attempt this or crunch the numbers and let me know if it's possible.
You can get stroker kits, yes. For street duty they are great but if you want horses stock stroke and bore are best with more rpm and better rods.
Water-meth tests will be awesome, I'm curious for the same reasons
I still think you should reference boost from the intake manifold! Should let the turbo sing more
One of these in a chevette would be fun
That comp cam is similar to the BTR torque cam. It should have been installed factory.
Mr Holdener,I need your help .I'm trying to maximize HP with the parts I have . Need to know what heads to add to mix for total maximization. This is what I have. (Elgin - 1840p / Fast lsxr -102 , timing chain , smaller crank pully ,high vol oil pump. Headers longtube .I'm looking to match what I all ready brought to a great pair of heads. What do you recommend ? ( going in an Corvette ls1 2000 frc. Manual) Thanks again for your time 🙏.
PORTED 243 HEADS OR AFR OR TFS
Why did they ditch the turbo for the sc, since the latter has no ic. Sc's more $$$ I'd imagine too
Hi Richard. do you mind if I pick your brain. you've inspired me to do a budget turbo project. I'm using a ford laser with a 1.6L Mazda ZMDE engine and an eBay T25 turbo. it has a 2" compressor outlet. most of the cheaper intercooler and piping are 2.5" , would there be a problem using a 2- 2.5" silicone adaptor and 2.5 intercooler and piping? Thank mate. Richard from Australia.
WE DO IT ALL THE TIME-IT WILL WORK
I wasn't expecting such a great increase in power with just a cam swap, especially one with only 210/220 duration. The factory cam must really stink.
The factory cam is smog-limited. None of these cam swaps that Mr. Holdener does can survive CA's biennial smog testing. Set up an LLC and register your car in Montana! [No smog tests; all MT's smog rolls downhill to end up in Nebraska... 😁]
Yes they do! I am running the ZZP XP cam which is a 212/224 cam that makes great power. They also sell a non intercooled cam which is a 220/230.
@@nunyabidniz2868 sorry, but not true. My car passed with the smaller ZZP VS cam (206/216) and actually did better with the ZZP XP cam (212/224).
more duration doesn't necessarily equate to more pollution if efficiency is increased.
You have to remember other mods were done first so the cam is helping the smaller pulley and headers do their job better too.
I have the bottom port and m90 supercharger my 3800 is a n/a do i need the supercharged heads with pcm or just heads
3800 series best motor ❤
My Supercharged 2004 Buick Park avenue Ultra needs 93 to 99 no ethanol blended fuel. My owners manual states that any ethanol blended gas can damage to the block and supercharger and no regular 87 as it will knock heavy.
e85 will not hurt your block or blower (fuel in injected after the blower)
😆 I have jaws on the TV but I open my phone to richard with that shirt
I'd like to see you put all that supercharger kit on a na 3800 and see their max potential
Be the same results as long as the N/A engine had the same heads as the supercharged version which it probably doesn't
Sounds like cheap fun to me! Wrecking yards are full of these engines and can be had for a song and dance.
This needs to go into the Nova
So am I good with my setup or should I drop pulley size on my 3800sc intercooled with zzp xp hot cam. Stock heads, 130 springs, ls7 lifters, on a 3.4 pulley the car feels great but wondering if it's a huge difference to goto a 3.2 pulley or am I staying in a good curve at 3. 4 pulley
add e85 and boost
How much does l32 supercharger on l67 (240hp) add?
any suggestions for a non-boosted 3800? loved the video!!
CAM, PORTED HEADS
thank you so much!!!! you're the greatest!!!!
Omg! I... I.. just dont know what to say!!? - back to drooling!.
Excited for the water meth testing
How aggressive of a cam can be ran while retaining streetability? Do plan on doing a test with the comp cam and compound boost? Why can a VW 4 cylinder produce 1200 hp, but this V6 only makes 1/3 at 400 hp?
what vw makes 1200 hp?
Would be good to try a more aggresive cam. The life seems a little low and I'm the intake duration could be higher. Id love to see a 230 230 114 @ 550 lift
SINGLE PATTERN?
You got to get here quick when the vid drops if you wanna be #1.
@ Richard Holdener/ what is the L32/L67 mean. What if you even the number 67/67
engine designations by the factory-early and late sc 3800
Why not run f-body headers??
! Hey are there any high twist helix rotor packs to install into these M90 blowers? Do you know what I mean?
I DNO'T KNOW OF ANY TVS M90 UPGRADES
I know this is a late ? But I always wondered what's stopping someone from turning a smaller pulley on the lathe 😅 😊
that is possible-but the snout itself limits the ID size (we had to machine the snout to fit a 2.6)
What did blowing boost through that charger do id like to see boost gauges in diffent spots like before and after the blower
with the turbo? The turbo supplies 7 psi and this gets multiplied by the blower
Richard you need to do a Ford 3.8 supercharged v6 from the thunderbird sc vs gm 3.8 supercharged v6
The fords head gaskets won't hold up. The 3800's never see hg issues
@@brysonshires9742 they hold up just fine if you put in good ones. Felpro MLS is what I use on Ford 3.8l. 50,000+ miles @ 300rwhp.
@@rancherlee you've got a good point. But you can bulletproof 6.4 power strokes too
I'm curious.... I ran a series 2 1998 gtp with a ported gen 5 blower on a 2" pulley running 21psi . Upgraded valve springs , short stack intercooler, comp xp cam , ported heads throttle body, headers and cai and custom tuned ecu..... plus a fully built trans to handle the power . Can you do a similar test have pic of my build but don't know how to share it.... total animal lots of fun
are you asking if I can dyno test your motor combo?
@@richardholdener1727 yes, if possible.... I know a lot of the comments are old but I'm very curious on what kinda power I was actually putting down. I was running 18° timing and 42# injectors on 93 Oct.
can i put a 3800 supercharged series 3 motor in my 3800 series 2 non supercharged grand prix do i have to change anything
ecu and harness are likely different
Will any of work on an 4.3
Any chance you could try a set of 1.9 rockers with this cam?
I don't have any
These engines are good gm should have just built them up with more power. From factory
I was interested in these motors a few years back for an s10 swap. Went ls
Don’t these use a different bell housing pattern than the LS or 4.3? Or did yours have the 4cyl?
@@bigredhelland that is correct they use the small chevy bell housing patter. So in a 4 banger or 2.8 s10 it'd be an easy swap. With my 4.3 it would need an adapter and was a reason to not use it. Ls swap the world
@@danielpeterson2843 I’m right there with ya. I just picked up a awesome blazer extreme bone stock in nice shape, 4.3. Going to ls swap it but I bought all the parts for a 3.8 like in this video for a different project that I decided to spice up and do rwd and ls swap (turbo) instead. So now I have a pile of parts to do a 400hp 3.8 that I’m sitting on.
@@bigredhelland mines actually a 92 Olds bravada, same thing but I'm about to pull the lm7 out and drop in an lq9
Can you put this supercharger on a 2000 ls1 ? This motor was a corvette motor built for twin- turbos I took off the turbos because they needed new seals everything else still on the car.
it is too small
Thanks Richard
I would love to see those same cam specs on a 110-112 maybe a touch more duration
A narrower LSA would build more torque at a lower RPM and fall off at higher RPM, but it’s less necessary with supercharged stuff since the boost already makes more power down low. More torque probably isn’t ideal since most applications that use this motor are FWD and most of the trans “behind” this motor don’t like the stock , let alone the extra torque of a hot rodded one. Torque tends to be the thing that kills parts; both driveline and engine. Look at his Big Bang series, where he’s stated that loading in lots of boost early likely caused the Gen 3 5.3 to fail. It’s also the reason people don’t spray nitrous at low rpm. A “150hp” shot makes 150 lb/ft at 5250 RPM, but makes 300 lb/ft at 2625 RPM.
@@stlchucko I just think a 115 is too wide especially with suck little duration. I don’t think a 110 would give anything up down low
110 would be good on it with a couple degrees of advance be a good little cam. When people know they won't be running an intercooler 215-230 favouring exhaust and 110-112 is common.
I never knew these were pushrod
Egts are just a number
What’s the biggest blower you can swap onto those motors?
Guys have done m112s.
Hi I have a L67 in a Fiero it’s a fully built engine. I have an inter cooler and I’m using the North Star tb. I have a 3.6 pully we did a tune I got 345 whp my tuner did not do any timing. When I got home I saw we are at 12 degrees in all rpm range. I have the hp tuner set up. I want to change the pully to the 2.8 and re tune with timing. Also I am running E85. My tuner said the IAT should be relocated from the TB to the manifold. I guess I have to drill the manifold. Is that what you did ? And do I use the North Star IAT in the manifold so I make sure I have the same values and leave the other one in the TB just unplugged ?
I ran it with a Holley ECU-not a stock ECU-I didn't use the IAT sensor-345 whp with a 3.6 pulley and 12 degrees of timing? Something doesn't add up!
@@richardholdener1727 I’m sorry I was wrong it’s a 3.2 pulley
I am thinking of going 2.8 do you think that’s to low
Howdy Richard. Not supercharged, or turboed. What extreme cam upgrade would you recommend? Thanks!
lots of mild shelf cams avail
@richardholdener1727 thank you Richard, really appreciate it! Luv your show!!!
Yokes. 1437f is cooking. I get out of it at 1350 on my diesel and it's iron headed.
what should ring gap be with 14psi boost? plz
.0065 per 1 inch of bore
So you stormy have to gap rings for the n/a? And don't have to change Connecting rod?
stormy?
@@richardholdener1727 that suppose to say "don't" so you don't have to gap rings
aren't these 3800 motors configured as front wheel drive? Can you use these on a RWD car?
yes-they cam na in rwd camaros
They are used in rwd commodores aswell
That combo would have been nice in my Buick ultra. Or my Grand Prix. Too bad it didn’t holdup
... Or an FBody Camaro.
i looked into doing this to a 3800 years ago and came to the conclusion the transmission can not handle that kind power for any length of time. the only path to fix the issue is to modify a FWD Cadillac transmission to replace the 4T65-HD transmission.
You can get the 4t65hd built also.
@@SupraBdub from what i understand the 4T65-HD comes with most, if not all, GM supercharged 3800 vehicles... but my point was at the end of the day you'll be spending big money to beef-up the powertrain.
At what point do you need to machine the valve guides for extra lift?
GOOD POINT-I NEVER CHECKED
@@richardholdener1727 I heard it was around the 500 lift mark, currently building my engine and trying to figure it out
We've typically been advised that ~.540 requires that, since you can run an XP cam with shaved retainers, but beyond that the seals will get smushed.
Richard is the engine making less boost or just showing less PSIG?
the boost pressure is down because we made the NA motor more efficient
@@richardholdener1727 ….Efficiency is always a key ingredient in the power recipe. If someone wants high boost for bragging rights, they can start by restricting the exhaust 😳.
Why not do some new bearings and rings, with a dinglebary hone, to a good junkyard motor.
What pound rating valve springs did you use?
we used stock ls3 springs
@richardholdener1727 thank you sir! Appreciate muchly...
Richard, I noticed when you showed the charts for the boost curves, and the fluid air temps, that in the chart titles it said "comp cam SC water meth base22".
What was this about? I didn't hear anything in this video of the mention of water meth being used. Although in a previous video I remember hearing you wanted to test water meth injection into the blower. Was this a typo in this particular chart, or? I can't imagine charge temps ever reaching that high while spraying water methanol, unless your weren't spraying enough.
IT WAS JUST A TITLE FOR A DYNO RUN WE WERE PLANNING ON TESTING-IT NEVER HAPPENED
@@richardholdener1727 gotcha. Well, do the water meth test lol. I've heard these M90s do great with pre-blower spray.
@@boosted0079 He wants to. The test mule spit out a rod bearing.
@@alantrimble2881 I seen that. Unfortunately, I've seen a lot of these 3800s spin rod and main bearings over the years. It's hit and miss with them
I wish Richard was my neighbor, or at least a good friend
The testing for this 3800 kinda dropped off. Been almost a year now lol. The chat across some of the 3800 groups were wondering what happened. Some were expecting a lot just because the LS stuff does, but I understand that's unrealistic to
Richard get mr brian tooley to send you a truck norris cam pronto! id love to see how it does in a 4.8 especially
Is the 3800 a roller cam?
HYD ROLLER