Completely agree, with one exception. After listening to advice (like from Paul, and in my personal case, it would also be speakers first), I would upgrade based on what is most fun - as Paul stated. And that might not even be the speakers. We are in this hobby to have the most fun. I would go for speakers first, then amp (but I'm a weirdo - I like looking at lumps that don't do anything but know they are doing something; that's fun for me). For some people who really like to tinker, I would go with a DAC like minidsp or the like, and use REW to their heart's content. Some audiophiles scoff at added noise in these signals, but, as Paul said, if it's fun, then that's where I would invest in. Just like this photographer I knew before (during film days). He kept on buying different kinds of film, different glass (lenses), and you know what he took the most pictures of? Resolution and color charts. And he loved loved loved just comparing them. And, to him, that's fun.
It is a hard decision especially since source is a key deciding factor, digital or analog. Great video as always Paul. Speakers are very personal and my advice is to get what you like the sound of and then do not listen to others since it is so varied and easy to be persuaded. Just an opinion from someone who is finally honing in on my personal tastes myself. Enjoy the journey, we all should!
2. Speaker quality and suitability for the listening space. 3. Amplifier 4. Playback equipment (1. of course is your Music Library which should make up at least 80% of your overall expenditure over say the first decade)
Actually, if I could start over again, I'd spend most on the stereo gear because I can utilize the public library. Nowadays, there are also streaming subscriptions. Aside from that, how many albums will I really have time to listen to? Certainly a few well-chosen recordings that check all of the boxes, and are likely to be enjoyed many times each, would be good to buy. (Maybe recordings that are discovered via the public library and streaming services.) But I wouldn't say that should even be half of the total amount spent.
Even more fun is getting a 'new' used piece that appeals to you because it looks good, sounds good, and makes you feel good. That, along with Very restricted financial resources, is why most of the equipment I have is far from up-to-date.
The “speakers first” method is very valid. I’ve heard good speakers on “less than marvelous” amps and sources on many occasions. I was NOT disappointed.
Hi Paul I don't always agree with you but this time l do. I don't know why that matters but it feels better when I agree with you. Trying to work out why makes my head ace, but as you now once you get over 70 if thing don't hurt they don't work. Cheers from the UK Cliff.
Sage advice. I would add that one should consider the speaker and amp as one component. I have heard many great pair of speakers sound like garbage because how they sounded with the amp driving them was not considered. Disappointment awaits those who overlook how the amp, and speaker are reacting to your room. The second caution I would advise is a bit cliche, because it costs more does not mean you get more. Budget for a good speaker yes but set cost aside and focus on how they sound. There are tons of makes and models that hit far beyond their price point, and many that are overinflated rip offs, that give you nothing but a prestigious name.
Gr research.... My DIY nx otica and stereo triple servo subs that I spent 14-15k on with material (I went absolutely end game on the crossover) sounded better than anything I heard at axpona 2023, including the 200-300k a pair speakers. The cost is not the bottom line, it's the quality of the actual drivers, caps, resistors, inductors, internal wire and the designer. The designer is absolutely make or break and Danny at GR research is literally a magician. He really is a natural talent.
By that logic I would argue that the amp, speakers and preamp should be considered as one component because the preamp makes a massive difference as to the overall sound characteristics of the amp. Granted a good amp is almost always going to sound good with any good preamp but there’s a lot of factors that determine whether a particular preamp pairs well with a particular amp. So while you might get a good sound from damn near any decent preamp it certainly doesn’t mean the amp is going to shine its brightest. So looking at speakers and amplification as one component gets quite a bit more complicated than that. Ultimately I think that logic would only apply to a complete novice who has very limited knowledge/ experience. Otherwise best to keep it simple and focus on speakers first and focus on speakers as speakers. Generally anyone who buys say Klipschorns for example already knows better than to purchase a Denon AVR to power them/ if they already have a Denon AVR they’re not going to assume the speakers are the problem when they’re initially disappointed. If you’re knowledgeable enough to make a smart speaker purchase then you’re knowledgeable enough to make an informed decision regarding other components and you’re more than likely going to have at least a pretty darn good sounding system no matter what choice you make regarding front end components. Granted you probably won’t get it entirely right the first time for an abundance of reasons but you’re probably not going to have a bad sounding system and you’ll probably have better sense than to assume any weak points are the fault of the speaker if you have a speaker of that caliber. I guess what I would ultimately consider more important over what order you invest in components is investing time in educating yourself before you buy anything. Waking up one day and deciding to blindly invest in a system because you like music and think audio would be a fun hobby is almost never going to yield good results unless you have enough disposable income to buy your way into great sound without any real world experience or knowledge. For real people who have to make these decisions more cautiously, education and gaining hands on experience by any and all available means should always be and will always be the first and most important component, speakers second and then pre/power. That’s my overly complicated rant regarding what I would consider the simplest approach to achieving a good-great system from basically scratch. However I can see where you’re coming from to a point.
@@shannonmiller5648 I do not disagree. For the sake of simplicity and sane costs. I am thinking in terms of a music only receiver or integrated. Not separates or AVR's. Not many average folks are crazy enough to invest in separates. For what is worth, I see the preamp as a separate but equal consideration to the amp and speaker. Regardless, that is splitting hairs, the point is. When one considers a speaker choice, they need to think about how it fits in within the room and system as a whole. I have listened to far too many rigs where there was a crap ton spent on the speaker only to sound not that good. Either because of humps and suck outs within the room inhibit its performance, or the electronics did not mate well with its voicing or load. In short, I do not see the speaker as being nearly as important as the synergy of the entire system and room interaction. To me they are not the silver bullet that a lot of people make them out to be. They get the spotlight, because they are the most noticeable area of change, for hopefully the good but far too many times for the ill. One that if the existing electronics and room is not equally prioritized will lead for a lot of money spent just to go backwards. I feel strongly that great speakers need great (Not necessarily expensive.) electronics to get the most out of them.
@@ridirefain6606 I mean of course great speakers are at their best with great electronics driving them but the main point is that a shit speaker sounds like shit regardless of what’s driving it whereas there’s plenty of extremely decent sounding affordable components that will provide you with a good sounding system as long as you have great speakers to begin with. What I personally have never encountered is the opposite. Great electronics cannot, will not and never once have made a shit speaker sound good. I think that’s the main reason why it’s generally considered best practice to start with the speakers first. It provides the strongest platform for building a system that has nowhere to go but up as other components are upgraded. Other way around leaves you not really having a clue as to whether your supposedly good sounding gear sounds good or not. Regardless of whether you’re a separates or an integrated kind of cat. I agree with the importance of room treatment and room synergy with a given speaker but that kind of falls under my main point of prior education. End of the day it’s just not very sensible to buy supposedly good sounding gear and just hoping that it actually does sound good when you finally get some good speakers because the fact of the matter is until you get good speakers you simply won’t really know. Start with great speakers and they’ll sound great and get progressively better as the components do.
@@shannonmiller5648 Just to clarify, I am not advocating that crappy speakers will sound great with better electronics. Only that one should mate your chosen speaker with electronics that augment their and your listening room's strength and weaknesses. We both know there is a ton of stuff out there that overachieves at nearly every price point. In both electronics and transducers. I am sure you agree that something that is more costly does not always correlate to being that much better. Happy listening and be well in your journey.
I bought Polk Rti-A7s brand new in 2007 and Rti-A3s a few years ago and they were driven by Yamaha RXV863 and the sound was good but hurt my eardrums when I turning up the volume. Now after a few years of buying and building I'm using All separates with preamplifier and separate amps for each pair of speakers including high end speakers wire, interconnects, separate DAC Etc. I'm hearing so much that I Never heard before from these speakers that is unbelievable compared to before. Someday I'll upgrade to Aspen speakers and Really hear the difference.👍
There is no other item in the audio chain that makes the same magnitude of difference than the loudspeaker - the difference from one to another is night and day. It’s also the most compromised part of the system. Nowadays, spending huge amounts of money on an amplifier or DAC can sometimes only lead to a very small difference compared to ones more modestly priced - it’s the law of diminishing returns. With speakers you have to be seriously wealthy to afford a pair that will sound realistic and in turn make some of those nuances in the rest of the system seem like chasms. I would always say start off with a budget system that you can afford to ditch later on and listen and learn before making decisions that might break the bank.
That’s basically the point I’ve always tried to make. Educating yourself and gaining as much hands on experience as possible is always the most important component in building a quality system. However as far as having to be extremely wealthy to afford speakers capable of producing realistic and extremely detailed sound couldn’t be further from the truth unless you’re someone who is dead set on buying new. I own speakers that cost over $16k to own buy a pair new. Even after component updates to put them on par with the new models electronically, such as HF drivers and new high end capacitors in the crossover networks, I’m only at a smidge over $4k all in on a 16,000 dollar pair of speakers. As far as buying new, which I personally think is foolish when it comes to at least the speakers, you’re absolutely correct 👍🏻
In order of importance I would go speakers, amp and then sources based on personal interest (turntable, cd transport, tape player, etc...) and then sound modifiers like DACs and equalizers. And if you want to make the second step interactive get a tube amp. Tube rolling will "interactive" the living daylights out of you!
Do you think the answer to this question might depend on the kind of source the person plans to use? If someone is planning to use digital, then I would tell them to get the amplifier first, since the differences between amplifiers will be bigger than the differences between dacs/CD players /streamers etc. However, if they want to play vinyl, I would tell them to get the turntable and cartridge first, because these make a bigger difference, and they won't get much more enjoyment from playing and collecting records unless they have a good analog rig
Probably right, because if you change your speakers, which have greater variability than anything else in the chain, then you may well hear an improvement which might just end there.
@davewin1792 Thats inaccurately represented, but factually true.The speakers are the translators of Electricity to Sound. If a translator only knows half the words of another, then they can only translate half the information. Similar to a speaker being able to only reproduce half of the human hearing range, versus the entire 20-20,000 hz range. True if i hook my crystal radio to my LaScalas they will sound terrible, but for decades now even low quality budget throw away electronics are at a higher sound quality level to reproduce most of the hearing range.
Transducers, to be pedantic. Speakers yes, but if vinyl’s your bag, then the phono cartridge is similarly the biggest difference in your system. Also I’m sure it’s been said already, but if not, your gear should be at roughly equal price points too. Otherwise, your one or two expensive pieces of equipment are going to be stifled by your less expensive gear. That said, at least you’ll KNOW what the bottleneck is, that way!
Speakers should be the last. Here’s why. Most everyone starts with speakers. They keep changing out speakers not realizing their issue is mainly in the amplification. Speakers are big and take up a lot of room. Many are willing to unload for free or very cheap. Hang out with somebody who changes speakers like a pair of socks. Get good amplification first along with preamp. Entry level source material is cheap. You now have a good running system. Can save up and eventually buy the dream speakers that match well with the amplification.
I think getting speakers first without any experience is probably not the best move. As a significant upgrade to an existing system, now that would make more sense, depending on the overall circumstances. This is one of those “chicken or egg” questions, whose final answer is merely “that depends.”
Most speakers I see tend to have similar sensitivity, so it is safe to buy the amp first according to how loud you want to be able to go at a certain distance away - and still have headroom for peaks. I think I would say spend most of your money on the loudspeakers though. The order can be tough as a lot of us are buying used, and always looking for the best deal. If you can afford it, you could just straight up buy an active speaker set based on the public spinorama data, though that is kinda boring. As for DACS, it is one of the dirty secrets of audio that many devices have audibly transparent DACs. Laptop / phones / dongles today are so good that you don't even need a separate DAC.
As a headphone audiophile, Paul’s philosophy applies to headphones and IEMs too as far as the most important elements in a setup. Like speakers, the sound signature of a headphone/IEM is ingrained by its design, driver configuration, etc., and any relatively-balanced external source is not going to drastically alter that signature. For example, if you have a single DD IEM and a 2BA IEM, no unaltered source will make a DD sound like a BA setup and vice versa. But a good source (amp, dac, etc) should bring out the best of whatever sound signature is designed into the speaker/HP/IEM with as little alteration as possible.
Well first off, I am not recommending speakers over defective or really bad amplifiers. This assumes you have at least reasonable electronics. That said, unless you're actually clipping the power amplifier, I know of no distortion that can damage a pair of speakers. I think you're probably good.
Drawing on Paul: If your ideal speakers can't be driven by the amplifier you have, then just wait. If you have typical AV reciever and aim for 4 ohm or lower speakers, planars, etc, that's where you are.
first & foremost: 3-way speakers that are properly suited for your listening environment, either floor-standing or bookshelf speakers on stands, with about 8 to 10 feet of separation, and yourself sitting at about the same distance from each speaker (forming an equilateral triangle with your speakers). then connect a decent Class AB amplifier (none of that Class D garbage); plus good quality interconnects & speaker cables.
I agree. Buy the speakers first. Then you can pull up a chair and stare at them every night while you save enough money to buy an amp. Then you repeat the process until you have the complete set up. This can take months or years.
That's one thing to do. Another way would be to buy the turntable first, and it will actually do something, "silently spin a record" while you stare at it, and save up for the rest of your system. No need to lower the stylus onto the record and put hours on the stylus for nothing; but you can make a game of trying to see the Shibata stylus from across the room. It takes real good eyesight.
Or use some common sense, get some cheap powered speakers to see you through until you’ve setup the rest of the system including proper speakers. That’s what I did, had a basic digital streaming speaker for 5 years while I built up the proper system. You have to appreciate the audience Paul is speaking to, these are people who have a few million in the bank in savings and wouldn’t blink an eye at buying a complete system for £500,000, it doesn’t take them years to build it.
@@SpyderTracks Made in China cheap? I have a honest addiction for vintage hifi made in their country of origin. Full analogue and built like fortresses. I have a few of them. Made in Japan, UK, Marantz Made in Holland and of course stuff made in USA.
I agree with Paul, Linn not agreeing, with the speakers with one consideration. My basement listening room was very dead sounding even with treatment. When I bought a new pair of speakers my high quality 80W Amp could just not make those speakers come alive. I therefore had to go out and buy a good 200W Amp which made my new speakers sing. I know my circumstance was a bit unusual but something to look out for when buying new speakers.
Although I am not new to audio equipment world but if a person is starting fresh and buy speaker first what will he do with the speakers until and unless he has a proper amplifier to hook those speakers too. So in a way speakers will be just lying at one corner with no productive use.
Paul, in many of your videos you speak a lot about the importance of room acoustic treatments, yet you don't mention them here. If one is in the process of upgrading, shouldn't those be high, if not the highest on the list? I'm in the process of a system upgrade after some years of neglecting my sound system. After installing a comprehensive set of acoustic treatments, I'm kicking myself for not doing so years earlier. They make me (almost) satisfied with some inexpensive "placeholder" speakers I have now. Wouldn't you recommend acoustic treatments, particularly to those who have never experienced them?
I have an end game system and room and I can tell you hands down it's speskers and room treatment followed extremely close behind. Room is probably more important, but it's no fun to spend on a room, set it up, and have no / low quality speakers for the room. I will say tho, an even modest 1-2k set of speakers in a very good room that is well setup will absolutely blow you away. End game speskers in a poor room is quite the opposite.
Purchase golden ears first then the Audiophile spike and cable junk handbook. Then get some stands to hold your cables off the carpet. then get a super duper PS Audio mains conditioner, By now you have no money left to buy any real hifi.....let alone a CD.
I like very simple , minimalistic and at the same time best system as I can afford it . I hate cluttered stuff . What I have is best stereo integrated amp connected also to a big 85 inch screen TV behind my audio system on a very nice modern furniture TV stand which fits nicely all stereo equipment on it , best turntable , best 4K DVD player and of course best speakers . It looks beautiful . Sounds amazing . I know most of audiophiles have very cluttered systems in their places , lots of unnecessary things like preamps , amps , afteramps , predac , dac , afterdac , all other crazy useless electronics and of course lots and lots of cables . Pure EYESORE . How can you enjoy your listening when in front of you is all that scrambled garbage . No wonder audiophiles close their eyes or turn off the lights when they want to enjoy the sound of music .
Strap the tens and on the 20s and 30s use the same top unit I'm not sure why it's so big that top unit ? is the driver open in the back and filled with stuffing there's no reason to be that size otherwise, just make a separate base unit one with three drivers and one with four drivers of the same size in both units that means somebody can keep the top unit and just buy the bottom unit, for an change if needed if you have a bigger room is the only reason you would need four or five drivers. possibly a powered active unit as well what could be made to fit any of the other units as an upgrade. Sell the 30s, for $5000 and the 20s for $3200 and the top unit with tweeter and mid-range for 2000 $ is a fair honest price and you can make more money doing it that way, if as good as you say! So sell the top unit for 2000$ with the 30s bottom unit 3000$ and choice of powered active as wel in the future. There's not match cost in materials of the two base units and packaging would be roughly the same price don't get greedy Paul!!
Another option is to replace the weakest link. Can you replace the weakest link only to discover it's not the weakest link? Yes, but it's a learning experience.
I've done it like speakers older type quadral aurum 5 Pickt up 2 nice monoblocks advanced paris bx2 I have spared Them up to a DIY pre amp accuphase c3850 circuit 50va toroidal transformer En raspberry pi streamer end re klocker linear power filter en a toroidal transformer feeding that My dac is a diy TDA1541A toroidal transformer This os best sounding setup i can Imagine Myself
Yup speakers first!... After, the divorce, going from Altec 604e and Harmon Citation 19, I knew I wanted the VOTTs and I knew I wanted a tube amp _(something like McIntosh MC-1502)_ none of which could possibly fit my budget of course. So I built the VOTTs as a father-daughter project _(25 years ago)_ and kept the Citation 19 until 2018, when I bought and built the VTA ST-120 with KT-88s. Pretty much retired the Pioneer CD player in favor of a DIY Raspberry Pi/Allo Boss DAC/ 2TB Music Server, a cheap 10" Android tablet serves as the control device. Then, early this year _(the piece de resistance)_ I scored, from a buddy, a pristine TEAC A-3340S that I've had the pleasure of being the only one to work on, since it was purchased new...... did i mention, I just love this rig? I'm like a pig in mud! 😂❤ 4:44
VTA120 myself on Crites Cornscalas. Building the M120 monoblocks as we speak. Direct stream DAC. Levinson class A for SS on JBL 4343s. Keep up the good work
For the home gamer into vintage hifi and vinyl, I would put a good turntable at the top of the list. I have found nice receivers, amps and speakers used on FB marketplace and even garage sales. Now that being said, on my current setup, I have as much money into the speakers as everything else combined. Everything I have is from the 1970s.
I love Paul but strongly disagree. Always start with the source. If you have a bad source, your amp will magnify the problem, then pass the problem down to your speakers. Great speakers can never fix a bad source. In reality, building a system is usually an iterative process of swapping out components as you ladder up the quality scale, and fix weak links. For example, if you finally upgrade your amp, you may find you now want more dynamic speakers, this may lead you back to upgrading your source, power supply, cables, etc.
I must of heard this same question worded different once a year going back 5. I wonder if last year it was on Sept. 30 also. And 9/30/21. Its a conspiracy! The random question program failed in the matrix and they only had an old maintenance management program to takes its place. Now all the question are sceduled in even yearly intervals. We told the Smiths it sucks and they said it was inefficient and agreed, but the matrix supply chains are backed up and theres nothin nobody could do, but theyll get back to us. In the meantime orders tripled as an attempt to fill local stockrooms, artificially inflating backorder numbers by 340%, making the manufacturing part of the supply chain appear to be in much worse condition than it actually is. Software resources were shifted out of the random question department and into manufacturing, leaving a void of talent in its wake. Isnt it obvious to everybody?
thats why these new all in a box solutions are so popular.. those little light class D boxes with a bluetooth antenna dac and amp ..just add speakers. most are pretty decent... to starters at least. great for the office or little rooms... times changes. life changes. dont see many people moving 180 lb class A power amps. bunch of weakling princesses haa
Start with the best loudspeaker you can afford and amplfication. How can you judge what works and what doesn’t if you can’t appreciate it by hearing that evolution from elsewhere in the system. It’s all pure common sense and nothing more or less!!
well... its a chain right?? you wont get any sound till all links are put together . so. who cares the order? you need all of them. just go getting things the order they appear in your life. you get an X lnk at a great price but pass by it cos you are on speakers now... silly right? remember you need every link to get sound. no particular order is better. happy gear hunting.
Don't forget the room. Great speakers can sound bad in a bad room. It's not too expensive to add a bit a sound treatment to the room to make them new speakers sound a lot better.
That's STRANGE, because in 44 years of Hi-Fi, I've always been told, "garbage in, garbage out," and that it's the SOURCE that's most important. So, I'm afraid I must disagree with Paul! Start with the source, and work your way to the speakers! Not the other way around!
Source first Paul.. What good is a speaker if it doesn’t receive all the information from the source 🤷♂️ garbage in, garbage out… c’mon you’ve got it wrong this time.
Completely agree, with one exception. After listening to advice (like from Paul, and in my personal case, it would also be speakers first), I would upgrade based on what is most fun - as Paul stated. And that might not even be the speakers.
We are in this hobby to have the most fun. I would go for speakers first, then amp (but I'm a weirdo - I like looking at lumps that don't do anything but know they are doing something; that's fun for me). For some people who really like to tinker, I would go with a DAC like minidsp or the like, and use REW to their heart's content. Some audiophiles scoff at added noise in these signals, but, as Paul said, if it's fun, then that's where I would invest in.
Just like this photographer I knew before (during film days). He kept on buying different kinds of film, different glass (lenses), and you know what he took the most pictures of? Resolution and color charts. And he loved loved loved just comparing them. And, to him, that's fun.
It is a hard decision especially since source is a key deciding factor, digital or analog. Great video as always Paul. Speakers are very personal and my advice is to get what you like the sound of and then do not listen to others since it is so varied and easy to be persuaded. Just an opinion from someone who is finally honing in on my personal tastes myself. Enjoy the journey, we all should!
2. Speaker quality and suitability for the listening space.
3. Amplifier
4. Playback equipment
(1. of course is your Music Library which should make up at least 80% of your overall expenditure over say the first decade)
Actually, if I could start over again, I'd spend most on the stereo gear because I can utilize the public library. Nowadays, there are also streaming subscriptions. Aside from that, how many albums will I really have time to listen to? Certainly a few well-chosen recordings that check all of the boxes, and are likely to be enjoyed many times each, would be good to buy. (Maybe recordings that are discovered via the public library and streaming services.) But I wouldn't say that should even be half of the total amount spent.
@@FiddlingCPA So you are basing your budget on being able to source music for free?
Even more fun is getting a 'new' used piece that appeals to you
because it looks good, sounds good, and makes you feel good.
That, along with Very restricted financial resources,
is why most of the equipment I have is far from up-to-date.
yeah..the usual get what is published cheap. those opportunities.
....and, topping off the "fun list" is if you have the ability to DIY build and test stuff....... but CAUTION it's a lifelong "tweaking" obsession! 😂
The “speakers first” method is very valid. I’ve heard good speakers on “less than marvelous” amps and sources on many occasions. I was NOT disappointed.
Hi Paul
I don't always agree with you but this time l do. I don't know why that matters but it feels better when I agree with you. Trying to work out why makes my head ace, but as you now once you get over 70 if thing don't hurt they don't work.
Cheers from the UK Cliff.
Hi Paul, I met you yesterday at the HI-Fi show in Ascot. (30th of September 2023) It was a pleasure to meet you.
Hey, Harvey! Yes, I remember. Thanks!
Thanks Paul, it was great meeting you and have been checking out all your great videos, top man !
Sage advice. I would add that one should consider the speaker and amp as one component. I have heard many great pair of speakers sound like garbage because how they sounded with the amp driving them was not considered. Disappointment awaits those who overlook how the amp, and speaker are reacting to your room. The second caution I would advise is a bit cliche, because it costs more does not mean you get more. Budget for a good speaker yes but set cost aside and focus on how they sound. There are tons of makes and models that hit far beyond their price point, and many that are overinflated rip offs, that give you nothing but a prestigious name.
Gr research.... My DIY nx otica and stereo triple servo subs that I spent 14-15k on with material (I went absolutely end game on the crossover) sounded better than anything I heard at axpona 2023, including the 200-300k a pair speakers. The cost is not the bottom line, it's the quality of the actual drivers, caps, resistors, inductors, internal wire and the designer. The designer is absolutely make or break and Danny at GR research is literally a magician. He really is a natural talent.
By that logic I would argue that the amp, speakers and preamp should be considered as one component because the preamp makes a massive difference as to the overall sound characteristics of the amp. Granted a good amp is almost always going to sound good with any good preamp but there’s a lot of factors that determine whether a particular preamp pairs well with a particular amp. So while you might get a good sound from damn near any decent preamp it certainly doesn’t mean the amp is going to shine its brightest. So looking at speakers and amplification as one component gets quite a bit more complicated than that.
Ultimately I think that logic would only apply to a complete novice who has very limited knowledge/ experience. Otherwise best to keep it simple and focus on speakers first and focus on speakers as speakers. Generally anyone who buys say Klipschorns for example already knows better than to purchase a Denon AVR to power them/ if they already have a Denon AVR they’re not going to assume the speakers are the problem when they’re initially disappointed. If you’re knowledgeable enough to make a smart speaker purchase then you’re knowledgeable enough to make an informed decision regarding other components and you’re more than likely going to have at least a pretty darn good sounding system no matter what choice you make regarding front end components. Granted you probably won’t get it entirely right the first time for an abundance of reasons but you’re probably not going to have a bad sounding system and you’ll probably have better sense than to assume any weak points are the fault of the speaker if you have a speaker of that caliber.
I guess what I would ultimately consider more important over what order you invest in components is investing time in educating yourself before you buy anything. Waking up one day and deciding to blindly invest in a system because you like music and think audio would be a fun hobby is almost never going to yield good results unless you have enough disposable income to buy your way into great sound without any real world experience or knowledge. For real people who have to make these decisions more cautiously, education and gaining hands on experience by any and all available means should always be and will always be the first and most important component, speakers second and then pre/power. That’s my overly complicated rant regarding what I would consider the simplest approach to achieving a good-great system from basically scratch. However I can see where you’re coming from to a point.
@@shannonmiller5648 I do not disagree. For the sake of simplicity and sane costs. I am thinking in terms of a music only receiver or integrated. Not separates or AVR's. Not many average folks are crazy enough to invest in separates. For what is worth, I see the preamp as a separate but equal consideration to the amp and speaker. Regardless, that is splitting hairs, the point is. When one considers a speaker choice, they need to think about how it fits in within the room and system as a whole. I have listened to far too many rigs where there was a crap ton spent on the speaker only to sound not that good. Either because of humps and suck outs within the room inhibit its performance, or the electronics did not mate well with its voicing or load. In short, I do not see the speaker as being nearly as important as the synergy of the entire system and room interaction. To me they are not the silver bullet that a lot of people make them out to be. They get the spotlight, because they are the most noticeable area of change, for hopefully the good but far too many times for the ill. One that if the existing electronics and room is not equally prioritized will lead for a lot of money spent just to go backwards. I feel strongly that great speakers need great (Not necessarily expensive.) electronics to get the most out of them.
@@ridirefain6606
I mean of course great speakers are at their best with great electronics driving them but the main point is that a shit speaker sounds like shit regardless of what’s driving it whereas there’s plenty of extremely decent sounding affordable components that will provide you with a good sounding system as long as you have great speakers to begin with. What I personally have never encountered is the opposite. Great electronics cannot, will not and never once have made a shit speaker sound good. I think that’s the main reason why it’s generally considered best practice to start with the speakers first. It provides the strongest platform for building a system that has nowhere to go but up as other components are upgraded. Other way around leaves you not really having a clue as to whether your supposedly good sounding gear sounds good or not. Regardless of whether you’re a separates or an integrated kind of cat. I agree with the importance of room treatment and room synergy with a given speaker but that kind of falls under my main point of prior education. End of the day it’s just not very sensible to buy supposedly good sounding gear and just hoping that it actually does sound good when you finally get some good speakers because the fact of the matter is until you get good speakers you simply won’t really know. Start with great speakers and they’ll sound great and get progressively better as the components do.
@@shannonmiller5648 Just to clarify, I am not advocating that crappy speakers will sound great with better electronics. Only that one should mate your chosen speaker with electronics that augment their and your listening room's strength and weaknesses. We both know there is a ton of stuff out there that overachieves at nearly every price point. In both electronics and transducers. I am sure you agree that something that is more costly does not always correlate to being that much better. Happy listening and be well in your journey.
Had the pleasure of chatting to Paul at the UK Ascot show recently what a gent!!
I bought Polk Rti-A7s brand new in 2007 and Rti-A3s a few years ago and they were driven by Yamaha RXV863 and the sound was good but hurt my eardrums when I turning up the volume. Now after a few years of buying and building I'm using All separates with preamplifier and separate amps for each pair of speakers including high end speakers wire, interconnects, separate DAC Etc. I'm hearing so much that I Never heard before from these speakers that is unbelievable compared to before. Someday I'll upgrade to Aspen speakers and Really hear the difference.👍
I agree 100%. The speakers it’s the key component , in a stereo system.
"It's easier to sneak a amp in" LOL so true...
Yeah, its a journey. Looking back, it's nice to see the speakers blossom with the additions of better equipment.
There is no other item in the audio chain that makes the same magnitude of difference than the loudspeaker - the difference from one to another is night and day. It’s also the most compromised part of the system. Nowadays, spending huge amounts of money on an amplifier or DAC can sometimes only lead to a very small difference compared to ones more modestly priced - it’s the law of diminishing returns. With speakers you have to be seriously wealthy to afford a pair that will sound realistic and in turn make some of those nuances in the rest of the system seem like chasms. I would always say start off with a budget system that you can afford to ditch later on and listen and learn before making decisions that might break the bank.
That’s basically the point I’ve always tried to make. Educating yourself and gaining as much hands on experience as possible is always the most important component in building a quality system. However as far as having to be extremely wealthy to afford speakers capable of producing realistic and extremely detailed sound couldn’t be further from the truth unless you’re someone who is dead set on buying new. I own speakers that cost over $16k to own buy a pair new. Even after component updates to put them on par with the new models electronically, such as HF drivers and new high end capacitors in the crossover networks, I’m only at a smidge over $4k all in on a 16,000 dollar pair of speakers. As far as buying new, which I personally think is foolish when it comes to at least the speakers, you’re absolutely correct 👍🏻
a new power amp is a fun idea. They do lay there underneath a shelf in the dark, but oh what music they make !
Hi Paul great to meet and chat with you and Chris at the Hifi Show today. Looking forward to the release of the FR10s later this year
You know we love Paul, when we read the title and already know what he’s going to say, but watch the video anyway. 👍🏽
In order of importance I would go speakers, amp and then sources based on personal interest (turntable, cd transport, tape player, etc...) and then sound modifiers like DACs and equalizers. And if you want to make the second step interactive get a tube amp. Tube rolling will "interactive" the living daylights out of you!
This is the best opinion. There will never be a better opinion because I share this best opinion.😁
Do you think the answer to this question might depend on the kind of source the person plans to use? If someone is planning to use digital, then I would tell them to get the amplifier first, since the differences between amplifiers will be bigger than the differences between dacs/CD players /streamers etc. However, if they want to play vinyl, I would tell them to get the turntable and cartridge first, because these make a bigger difference, and they won't get much more enjoyment from playing and collecting records unless they have a good analog rig
Probably right, because if you change your speakers, which have greater variability than anything else in the chain, then you may well hear an improvement which might just end there.
Anyone who's watched Paul's videos over the past many years already knows that he advocates Speakers First.
And he’s correct!!!
@@MrAaron117x Your speakers are only as good as your frontend.
@davewin1792 Thats inaccurately represented, but factually true.The speakers are the translators of Electricity to Sound. If a translator only knows half the words of another, then they can only translate half the information. Similar to a speaker being able to only reproduce half of the human hearing range, versus the entire 20-20,000 hz range. True if i hook my crystal radio to my LaScalas they will sound terrible, but for decades now even low quality budget throw away electronics are at a higher sound quality level to reproduce most of the hearing range.
Transducers, to be pedantic. Speakers yes, but if vinyl’s your bag, then the phono cartridge is similarly the biggest difference in your system. Also I’m sure it’s been said already, but if not, your gear should be at roughly equal price points too. Otherwise, your one or two expensive pieces of equipment are going to be stifled by your less expensive gear. That said, at least you’ll KNOW what the bottleneck is, that way!
Speakers should be the last. Here’s why. Most everyone starts with speakers. They keep changing out speakers not realizing their issue is mainly in the amplification.
Speakers are big and take up a lot of room. Many are willing to unload for free or very cheap. Hang out with somebody who changes speakers like a pair of socks.
Get good amplification first along with preamp. Entry level source material is cheap. You now have a good running system. Can save up and eventually buy the dream speakers that match well with the amplification.
I think getting speakers first without any experience is probably not the best move.
As a significant upgrade to an existing system, now that would make more sense, depending on the overall circumstances. This is one of those “chicken or egg” questions, whose final answer is merely “that depends.”
Most speakers I see tend to have similar sensitivity, so it is safe to buy the amp first according to how loud you want to be able to go at a certain distance away - and still have headroom for peaks. I think I would say spend most of your money on the loudspeakers though.
The order can be tough as a lot of us are buying used, and always looking for the best deal. If you can afford it, you could just straight up buy an active speaker set based on the public spinorama data, though that is kinda boring.
As for DACS, it is one of the dirty secrets of audio that many devices have audibly transparent DACs. Laptop / phones / dongles today are so good that you don't even need a separate DAC.
Just haul your entire system out into your front yard and be sure to bring your sledgehammer then start all over again. It's the audiophile way.
As a headphone audiophile, Paul’s philosophy applies to headphones and IEMs too as far as the most important elements in a setup. Like speakers, the sound signature of a headphone/IEM is ingrained by its design, driver configuration, etc., and any relatively-balanced external source is not going to drastically alter that signature. For example, if you have a single DD IEM and a 2BA IEM, no unaltered source will make a DD sound like a BA setup and vice versa. But a good source (amp, dac, etc) should bring out the best of whatever sound signature is designed into the speaker/HP/IEM with as little alteration as possible.
Hi Paul, correct me if i'm wrong, but if you recommend to buy good speakers first, wouldn't distortion from a bad amplifier damage speakers?
Well first off, I am not recommending speakers over defective or really bad amplifiers. This assumes you have at least reasonable electronics. That said, unless you're actually clipping the power amplifier, I know of no distortion that can damage a pair of speakers. I think you're probably good.
Drawing on Paul: If your ideal speakers can't be driven by the amplifier you have, then just wait. If you have typical AV reciever and aim for 4 ohm or lower speakers, planars, etc, that's where you are.
Thank Paul now I know why I'm full of gas🤣
first & foremost: 3-way speakers that are properly suited for your listening environment, either floor-standing or bookshelf speakers on stands, with about 8 to 10 feet of separation, and yourself sitting at about the same distance from each speaker (forming an equilateral triangle with your speakers). then connect a decent Class AB amplifier (none of that Class D garbage); plus good quality interconnects & speaker cables.
I agree. Buy the speakers first. Then you can pull up a chair and stare at them every night while you save enough money to buy an amp. Then you repeat the process until you have the complete set up. This can take months or years.
That's one thing to do. Another way would be to buy the turntable first, and it will actually do something, "silently spin a record" while you stare at it, and save up for the rest of your system. No need to lower the stylus onto the record and put hours on the stylus for nothing; but you can make a game of trying to see the Shibata stylus from across the room. It takes real good eyesight.
Or use some common sense, get some cheap powered speakers to see you through until you’ve setup the rest of the system including proper speakers. That’s what I did, had a basic digital streaming speaker for 5 years while I built up the proper system. You have to appreciate the audience Paul is speaking to, these are people who have a few million in the bank in savings and wouldn’t blink an eye at buying a complete system for £500,000, it doesn’t take them years to build it.
@@SpyderTracks Is there a channel for destitute audiophiles?
@@artyfhartie2269 yes, several. Cheap audio man to name the obvious.
@@SpyderTracks Made in China cheap? I have a honest addiction for vintage hifi made in their country of origin. Full analogue and built like fortresses. I have a few of them. Made in Japan, UK, Marantz Made in Holland and of course stuff made in USA.
I agree with Paul, Linn not agreeing, with the speakers with one consideration. My basement listening room was very dead sounding even with treatment. When I bought a new pair of speakers my high quality 80W Amp could just not make those speakers come alive. I therefore had to go out and buy a good 200W Amp which made my new speakers sing. I know my circumstance was a bit unusual but something to look out for when buying new speakers.
Although I am not new to audio equipment world but if a person is starting fresh and buy speaker first what will he do with the speakers until and unless he has a proper amplifier to hook those speakers too. So in a way speakers will be just lying at one corner with no productive use.
Phone, both wired and Bluetooth headphones, music subscription service.
One power, headphone jack dongle.
I’m done..😀👍😎🤗
Paul, in many of your videos you speak a lot about the importance of room acoustic treatments, yet you don't mention them here. If one is in the process of upgrading, shouldn't those be high, if not the highest on the list? I'm in the process of a system upgrade after some years of neglecting my sound system. After installing a comprehensive set of acoustic treatments, I'm kicking myself for not doing so years earlier. They make me (almost) satisfied with some inexpensive "placeholder" speakers I have now. Wouldn't you recommend acoustic treatments, particularly to those who have never experienced them?
I have an end game system and room and I can tell you hands down it's speskers and room treatment followed extremely close behind. Room is probably more important, but it's no fun to spend on a room, set it up, and have no / low quality speakers for the room. I will say tho, an even modest 1-2k set of speakers in a very good room that is well setup will absolutely blow you away. End game speskers in a poor room is quite the opposite.
Hey Paul, Ivor Tiefenbrun would like to have a word with you.
"It's a lot easier to sneak an amp in" LOL
Purchase golden ears first then the Audiophile spike and cable junk handbook. Then get some stands to hold your cables off the carpet. then get a super duper PS Audio mains conditioner, By now you have no money left to buy any real hifi.....let alone a CD.
I like very simple , minimalistic and at the same time best system as I can afford it . I hate cluttered stuff .
What I have is best stereo integrated amp connected also to a big 85 inch screen TV behind my audio system on a very nice modern furniture TV stand which fits nicely all stereo equipment on it , best turntable , best 4K DVD player and of course best speakers . It looks beautiful . Sounds amazing .
I know most of audiophiles have very cluttered systems in their places , lots of unnecessary things like preamps , amps , afteramps , predac , dac , afterdac , all other crazy useless electronics and of course lots and lots of cables . Pure EYESORE . How can you enjoy your listening when in front of you is all that scrambled garbage . No wonder audiophiles close their eyes or turn off the lights when they want to enjoy the sound of music .
Haha, totally agreed. I can't stand cable spaghetti!
1) Speakers
2) Amplifier and integrated Pre or better
2 )Preamplifier
3) Amplifier
4) DAC
5) Transporter
6) Cables
Yamaha integrated 2200.
Strap the tens and on the 20s and 30s use the same top unit I'm not sure why it's so big that top unit ? is the driver open in the back and filled with stuffing there's no reason to be that size otherwise, just make a separate base unit one with three drivers and one with four drivers of the same size in both units that means somebody can keep the top unit and just buy the bottom unit, for an change if needed if you have a bigger room is the only reason you would need four or five drivers. possibly a powered active unit as well what could be made to fit any of the other units as an upgrade. Sell the 30s, for $5000 and the 20s for $3200 and the top unit with tweeter and mid-range for 2000 $ is a fair honest price and you can make more money doing it that way, if as good as you say! So sell the top unit for 2000$ with the 30s bottom unit 3000$ and choice of powered active as wel in the future. There's not match cost in materials of the two base units and packaging would be roughly the same price don't get greedy Paul!!
Start with loudspeakers, then a powerplant. After that you choose a power-amp, then a pre-amp and then you're ready to choose a MP3-player.
LOL🙂
Yeah man. Coming from the 70s I went on strike to sony and Panasonic and didn't buy my first CD until 1995ish.
Another option is to replace the weakest link. Can you replace the weakest link only to discover it's not the weakest link? Yes, but it's a learning experience.
Audiophool debt trap, for the masses.
I've done it like speakers older type quadral aurum 5
Pickt up 2 nice monoblocks advanced paris bx2
I have spared Them up to a DIY pre amp accuphase c3850 circuit 50va toroidal transformer
En raspberry pi streamer end re klocker
linear power filter en a toroidal transformer feeding that
My dac is a diy TDA1541A toroidal transformer
This os best sounding setup i can Imagine Myself
In your opinion.
What is the most accurate speakers in the World today.
aww man, I cannot afford Aspen FR30.
Rabbit Hole 💰💰💰💰💰💰
Yup speakers first!... After, the divorce, going from Altec 604e and Harmon Citation 19, I knew I wanted the VOTTs and I knew I wanted a tube amp _(something like McIntosh MC-1502)_ none of which could possibly fit my budget of course. So I built the VOTTs as a father-daughter project _(25 years ago)_ and kept the Citation 19 until 2018, when I bought and built the VTA ST-120 with KT-88s. Pretty much retired the Pioneer CD player in favor of a DIY Raspberry Pi/Allo Boss DAC/ 2TB Music Server, a cheap 10" Android tablet serves as the control device. Then, early this year _(the piece de resistance)_ I scored, from a buddy, a pristine TEAC A-3340S that I've had the pleasure of being the only one to work on, since it was purchased new...... did i mention, I just love this rig? I'm like a pig in mud! 😂❤ 4:44
VTA120 myself on Crites Cornscalas. Building the M120 monoblocks as we speak. Direct stream DAC. Levinson class A for SS on JBL 4343s. Keep up the good work
@@flipfloptanlines926 ooooh sweet!
For the home gamer into vintage hifi and vinyl, I would put a good turntable at the top of the list. I have found nice receivers, amps and speakers used on FB marketplace and even garage sales. Now that being said, on my current setup, I have as much money into the speakers as everything else combined. Everything I have is from the 1970s.
I love Paul but strongly disagree. Always start with the source. If you have a bad source, your amp will magnify the problem, then pass the problem down to your speakers. Great speakers can never fix a bad source.
In reality, building a system is usually an iterative process of swapping out components as you ladder up the quality scale, and fix weak links. For example, if you finally upgrade your amp, you may find you now want more dynamic speakers, this may lead you back to upgrading your source, power supply, cables, etc.
Tell me about any bad Source or sources you've encountered? Please be specific
I must of heard this same question worded different once a year going back 5. I wonder if last year it was on Sept. 30 also. And 9/30/21. Its a conspiracy! The random question program failed in the matrix and they only had an old maintenance management program to takes its place. Now all the question are sceduled in even yearly intervals. We told the Smiths it sucks and they said it was inefficient and agreed, but the matrix supply chains are backed up and theres nothin nobody could do, but theyll get back to us. In the meantime orders tripled as an attempt to fill local stockrooms, artificially inflating backorder numbers by 340%, making the manufacturing part of the supply chain appear to be in much worse condition than it actually is. Software resources were shifted out of the random question department and into manufacturing, leaving a void of talent in its wake. Isnt it obvious to everybody?
thats why these new all in a box solutions are so popular.. those little light class D boxes with a bluetooth antenna dac and amp ..just add speakers. most are pretty decent... to starters at least. great for the office or little rooms... times changes. life changes. dont see many people moving 180 lb class A power amps.
bunch of weakling princesses haa
PS Audio has everything you need..to start from scratch.
Or any other time..👍😎🤗
you have the itch to spend money. All major credit cards accepted..👍😎🤗
Start with the best loudspeaker you can afford and amplfication. How can you judge what works and what doesn’t if you can’t appreciate it by hearing that evolution from elsewhere in the system. It’s all pure common sense and nothing more or less!!
Literally just learn how to read specs. So much for common sense.
well... its a chain right?? you wont get any sound till all links are put together . so. who cares the order? you need all of them.
just go getting things the order they appear in your life. you get an X lnk at a great price but pass by it cos you are on speakers now... silly right?
remember you need every link to get sound. no particular order is better.
happy gear hunting.
Always source first (CD player/Turntable) then amplifier, then speakers and finally cables, supports etc. You know it makes sense!😃
Ack...Ron?????????????????????
For sure audiophile will insist first consideration ought to be speaker wire & plugs, then next AC power conditioner.
you don't need an AC power conditioner, lol
@@techcafe0
Power conditioner improves sound stage & clarity, I swear ..
Just don’t start with horns😊
On my case I've spent 75% on speakers and I'm not talking about a pair or bookshelf or towers. I've spent that on subwoofers
Don't forget the room. Great speakers can sound bad in a bad room. It's not too expensive to add a bit a sound treatment to the room to make them new speakers sound a lot better.
If you are starting off from scratch, the first things you should purchase are power cords and interconnects.
🙃
That's STRANGE, because in 44 years of Hi-Fi, I've always been told, "garbage in, garbage out," and that it's the SOURCE that's most important. So, I'm afraid I must disagree with Paul!
Start with the source, and work your way to the speakers! Not the other way around!
PS Audio might not sell an "analog" source; which most advanced big spending audiophiles prefer.
Source first Paul..
What good is a speaker if it doesn’t receive all the information from the source 🤷♂️ garbage in, garbage out… c’mon you’ve got it wrong this time.