I Wonder Why it Creaks! - Giant Defy Bottom Bracket Fix
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- čas přidán 24. 02. 2023
- The Giant Defy Advanced had a Bottom Bracket insert that wasn't bonded as well as the calcified Lithium grease it was held in with. It is like the lithium grease dries out and expands to make a really tight fit. So tight that the bond between the DuraAce Bottom bracket and the shel was tighter than the shell and the frame.
We pulled it out with a PF41 bearing extractor and fixed it back in place with VUDU Glue from @easycompositestv. Their website is fantastic, has loads of spec sheets and info. The service was super fast too.
this is the glue we used www.easycomposites.co.uk/vm10...
The frame is over 5 years old, the owner does not have the original proof of purchase so a warranty claim would not be possible. - Sport
A sign of things to come. Metal threaded inserts debonding because of the Al to Carbon joint....
You mean threaded bb?
Metal threaded bb is one piece design, chunky design, lof of surface contact to carbon and undercut design.
Huge different between threaded bb and just puny metal insert for the pf bb in the video.
There is a potential for debonding but like every job one can do it right or wrong. My XTC Advanced SL 2012 has a threaded sleeve which is still firmly bonded in place...
@@stefanduurkoop9697 If it can be done the wrong way it certainly will.
@@apair4002you guys are dreaming. The main factor is exposure to elements which breakdown the bond. Ten times the surface area simply means ten times the failure. Which means a bigger problem to fix instead of a single sided cup it's an entire sleeve.
Another reason why I will stay away from frames using metal insert ... My respect for you has gone another level up, when you decided to remove the BB and test the glue and bond is strong. Very thorough job given the circumstances.
Thanks.
Coffee and a Mapdec vide to wake up to, life doesn't get better. Then down to stripping down and rebuilding my winter ravaged commute bike, fitting new chainset, bb, headset, front wheel, brake levers etc.
Have a great day.
Absolutely terrific video showing what really happens with some supposedly straight forward jobs. Three years ago a good mate asked me to replace his BB in his Giant. Drive side bearing cup comes out no problem , non drive side , same as yours the aluminium insert comes out. Shock and horror 🙈 Anyway finally got rid of the plastic and the aluminium cup was all good (you did a much more professional job than I did at removing the bearing & cup) I used araldite to bond the aluminium cup back in. The bike is still going strong today 🤞🤞 Really appreciate your tips in regard to glues and greases used as well as tool selection. You’re doing a great job. Take care 👍👍
Thank You Paul. I’m sure araldite will be fine. The reason I checked in with Martin and used vudo was because I was concerned about expansion and the surface corrosion on that alu cup. The problem with Vudo glue is you have a very short amount of time to work with it.
I bet it was a great moment when you pulled the insert out!!
I said words.
Your expertise and thoroughness is second to none!
🙏
Fantastic video, really appreciated
You’re a true craftsman. Thank you for the tutorial.
Really good stuff! Enjoying your channel a lot.
Thank you.
Nice work, it's always interesting to see BB being sorted, just had mine replaced I can tell the difference.
Another fantastic, and informative video. Thank you Paul. keep them coming, I love learning new tricks.
More to come!
Beautiful work.
Thank you! Cheers!
Watching a professional at work. 👍
Thanks 👍
Amazing job!
Good job
This video has just been a life saver…….
Thought I’d just wasted money rather than getting a bargain when I couldn’t get a BB out of a Defy Advanced!! Brute force and a dremel on the plastic cups…. bingo!! 😅😅😂😂
I silicone grease when i am greasing anything that contacts Carbon.
For metal to metal contact, i use a general purpose grease (not sure if it is a lithium grease) but i do clean and replace it at least once a year.
absolute legend!
Just like Hambini but without all the ****** words or the PowerPoint. Good thoughtful video!
… and a reasonable price 🙈. Thank you
Awesome you are a legend 👍
Thanks 😁 see you soon
Things get really tricky when grease holds better onto metal than epoxy. Reminds me of delamination problems with Boeing Dreamliner in 2021
WTF 😳
@@Mapdec well, not metal exactly, but carbon on carbon: resin did not adhere properly because of contamination with release film residue.
The lithium grease is pretty corrosive, combined with the natural water around the BB it's only a matter of time before it breaks down the glue joint
Great work... Can see you take pride in your work.. Can I ask what bottom bracket bearing extraction tools you used?
Vid on its way.
Note to self.... Get some surface prep if I need to change out my BB......
Excellent video! Would you be able to do a video about what greases to use? Seems like your really know your stuff! I just tend to use Park Tool ones. HPG for moving parts, and the green one for fixed parts. I have used lithium grease on BBs before 😅
There is a CZcams short about it. And more info in the Gigantic Bike vid.
@@Mapdec Are you applying the same grease for BB and headset assembly?
For IS I would just use waterproof bearing grease. For ZS or EC I would use an appropriate assembly grease at the frame / headset interface, and a the bearing grease at the headset/ bearing interface.
Merci!
🙏
5:20 bin the first dribble as it will not be mixed. If you have time just bin the mixing nozzle.
Bin all your white "lithium" grease. It only belongs inside gear shifters on top of pins that pivot to stop water ingress and stay tacky.
That BB cup is meant to be hard anodised. They didn't even clear/yellow anodised it because they were Penny pinching/Planned obsolescence.
Anodising will prevent the electrical charge between the 2 dissimilar materials. Ideally you needed to 2pac epoxy spray paint the cup &/or frame.
Use nickel anti seize, not copper, not clay grease, not lithium grease. NICKEL. The nickel will be attacked instead of the aluminium carbon iron etc. Copper is for high temp exhausts not bicycles.
Something like BelRay waterproof grease or marine grease is the best. I use it on the suspension and swingarm bearings of dirt bikes that are often submerged and pressure washed
To align the BB the bearing press is better than nothing, but assembling the cranks and preloadind both bearings is the only way to align it.
Just preload and spin the cranks to radials align it.
It was binned.
Not convinced with this. Can you evidence?
How did the estimate for BB recovery when you took the bike in compare with the cost when handing the bike back to its owner? Did they get a call to warn on the likely doubling or more in charge? This isn't a critisisim just a question on how you cope with unknowns that add a lot of time because you are so thorough.
Simple. We removed the BB. Called the customer, explained what happened, give them some options. 1. Warranty (not possible) 2. Fix it (additional hour) or 3. Do nothing. We take photos of everything or record it so the customer has a good understanding and can make a decision.
I’ve heard that the loosening of aluminum inserts is caused by aluminum thermal expansion that carbon fiber does not affect. Repetitive cycles of expansion and contraction lead to failure.
Yes. Remember we are talking bicycles and not fighter jet wings or racing cars here.
Any chance you can offer the brand of tool that you used to remove the bottom bracket bearing? That is much better than the blind hole puller I'm using. Thank you.
Yes. I’ll put it in a new vid. This one is just off eBay. I have a collection.
Can you provide details for the make model of the extraction and press fit kit would like to try and do press fit BB
Should all be in vid and description
I had exactly the same problem about 18 months ago... 2014 Giant Defy and the aluminium sleeve debonded from the carbon and stayed attached to the BB. I suspect the fix that was done for me was not to the same level of care & diligence as yours!
Oh! What happened?
@@Mapdec So... I was riding LEJOG in Sept ’21, and somewhere partway through I started getting nasty noises from the BB, which got worse as the trip progressed and finished.
On getting home, and giving the bike a thorough clean & service, when I removed the chainset, on the drive side the BB came out with the crank and chainrings. Aha! I thought, that’ll explain the noise. Took it to my local bike shop for a new BB. When I came to collect the bike, they told me that in fact it wasn’t just the BB that came out with the chainset, but the aluminium insert as well. (tbh I had no idea there was an insert prior to this!) And that they’d epoxied (their word) the insert back into the frame with the old BB still in it, and then had removed & replaced the BB having done so.
That first new BB lasted all of 3-400 miles before seizing up. They replaced that f.o.c., and the replacement has done maybe 1000 now, but I’m reluctant to ride that bike (hence the low mileage) because I’m kind of expecting the BB to crap out at some point - there’s obvious wear marks on the crank axle where the BB is rubbing against it, hence my feeling that the insert has not been put back in correctly. Any ideas? I’d love to get it back working properly…
The reason I double checked with Martin and used vudu glue was because of the fear of expansion or softening with heat. These could be your issue. Hard to tell without seeing and having to wrestle it out again which would be a bad idea.
is this an issue with threaded BBs? i have lithium grease and planned to use it to install my BBR60 BSA68
White Lithium grease is a pretty poor assembly grease for any application. It’s super cheap though which is why you see it smeared all over new builds.
I found a giant defy adv. in the trash at the appt where i used to live... Needs everything. Where is the best place to get parts
Your local bike shop of course
I forgot to ask, does this giant have a drain hole under the BB? Or only the 2 in the chainstays?
Yeah massive hole for cables. Clean as a whistle in there.
Better keep a good supply of that epoxy on hand for all the T47 bikes over the next few years 🤣
After seeing mine I am quite confident. It is built into the frame very differently.
I don't get why Giant used to add an inner metal lip to these inserts. It seems that the later models no longer have them. I had to dremel this extra material to install a Hambini one piece BB. Also impressive work as always.
I suspect they had some frames come out of mold that were not quite right and this was a method to revive frames that might otherwise go to landfill
Can you provide a name for the BB removal tool you used? I know it’s probably Chinese, but looks decent!
I’m not sure. It was just off eBay. Better than all the expensive methods I have including the wheels manufacturing one.
The downside of bonding metal inserts into carbon frames. I think we're going to see a lot more of these as threaded bbs are coming back into fashion.
Possibly. The treaded inserts are a lot bigger and go the width of the frame.
Yes it can be. However I'd like to see someone produce bsa inserts that can be bonded into pf30 bb shells to allow a shimano hollowtech bb to be used on older carbon frames .
@@Andy-co6pn You could just bond one of the one piece pressfit bbs into your frame like Hambini's or BBInfinite, you'd get better results.
@@rattila13 Yes thats the ideal solution but very pricey.. I thinking more of others like me that have say mtb frames getting on for 10 years old. Due to poor sram pf sealing, the bb bearings have been changed an awful lot of times now and the fit is starting to get a bit baggy. It's not even my main bike now and only needs a low cost solution. A Hambini bb would be like polishing the proverbial...
The threaded insert is still bonded in the frame. If you seize a BB cup in there and brute force remove it you will we bond it
What bearing extracting tool would you recommend for a home mechanic?
Hey. This is actually the cheap ones you see on eBay. I got sent one. Actually preferring it to the wheels Manufacturing one I paid a fortune for.
@@Mapdec Thanks Paul!
I thought you were going to sing "Sweet sweet fanta diallo"
I don’t know that one 😳
That will probably hold but I'd doubt it being aligned and uniformly bonded with that method. Many tricks used in building such bonded joints are available like small glass balls into the glue to make sure equal glue thickness.
Isn’t this also the inherent fault in “normal” press fit into carbon
Well. I would say it is bonded and better aligned than it came from the factory. Fixed fit H7/n6 for shell. There was no inherent misalignment like the other vids. This is a straight forward job.
why couldn't the warranty be used?
No POP.
Cordless heat gun? I'd have laid money on you using a MAP torch !
😂
What bb does that giant take?
Bb86
@@Mapdec oh boy, I think that's what my 2012 giant defy has, I can't wait for that headache
I asked ChatGPT if lithium grease expands when it drys out and it said No. So I suspect the opening for the bottom bracket is stretching because of the stresses. If your glue holds, the insert may act as a reinforcement to maintain the repair. But if the glue simply acts as a filler, I think the opening will continue to open up/stretch. Never saw these kinds of frame problems back in the day.
The question there is when corrosion has occurred. What you can see there is lumps that you can scrape with your fingernail.
@@Mapdec Sounds like corrosion, but is there any pitting?
It’s more like clumps of calcification.
@@Mapdec were there dissimilar metals then? Aluminum frame and a steel insert?
Would that have been a warranty claim if the paperwork was available? Giant frames have a lifetime warranty I believe. Did Giant use that lithium grease in the assembly or did someone else do that. Asking for a friend who has a very low mileage Giant Defy Pro 2 with possibly a creaky bottom bracket….
Hard to say on the grease. Yes, if it was original owner it would be warranty.
Not an uncommon on the Giant road bikes plus an anonymous 'Italian' bike that might be made in the same factory :) Good job though!
Carbon Fiber actively participates in the galvanic corrosion process of aluminum by an oxygen reduction or water splitting reaction.
Not of your making for sure but what a mess in the old days balls cups light grease and no problems forever these designs are purely to make money nothing more .i applaud your skills .
Balls cups and no sealing and rust and never quite the right pre-load and always unwinding themself and getting loose. What the hell are you talking about?! Modern BBs are far better then those supposedly good old days.
So you couldn’t find a 10 minute song from “The Cure” to play?
Copyright and all that jazz
Sadly not that uncommon as I've had to do this twice on Giant bottom brackets and once on a lower headset bearing seat.
All those bikes still in use yoday with no issues.
Giant* hole. What a pun 😂
Personally, I wouldn't use grease on the plastic shells. Dirt and dust gets in there and gets stuck in it and act's like a grinding paste. I'd use a retaining compound 🤷🏻♂️
We covered retaining compound in other vid. The issue with that is that it expands. So you need to measure the BB shell to know you have room for it to expand.
@Mapdec Cycle Works interesting didn't know it expands. I mean, you're pushing in a pressfit shell. so it will get forced out where it's tight and fill the very minor gaps else where. we are probably talking microns, but at least it seals it from dirt getting in between. Well, that's what I used on carbon shelled pressfit Tcr adv sl, not the alloy insert ones, not had prob with mine. I didn't know Giant used inserts like that . Must be fairly old defy. I had an old tcr adv sl 2013 model that had pressfit go slack on one side. It was down to not replacing the bb or taking out and cleaning. dirt and water got in and wore the carbon shell. They replaced the frame
hint from auto restoration ....try freezer rather that heat.
Carbon?
The Park Tool press does absloutely nothing in regards to parallel alignement of these cups, especially with the nylon BB between it and the Aluminium cup that needs to be glued in. You could have used a crank spindle at least. I also wonder why you did not spread the Voodoo Glue evenly, to provide better adhesion. You could also have filed in some slots with a needle file to get a bigger surface, without changing the concentricity.
Hope this fix will last a bit...
Oh. Hello troll. I followed the instructions. There is about a 4min working time. Removing the press and installing the crank would have disturbed everything. Do you honestly think we record and show everything on a CZcams vid? It would be really long and boring if we did 😂
@@Mapdec no need to call me a troll, just bc. i make suggestions for improvement. I still doubt that a the combination of your press, the plastic inlays in the bearings, bearings themselves, and an outer plastic bearing housing can provide stiff and true alignment for the Aluminium shell. Make what you want of that.
I can only comment on what you show, and this leaves room for improvement imo.
It is debatable, if an epoxy with only 4min time until settlement has been the right choice for this application. I use JB Weld, which allows for finer adjustments in the first hour for applications like that.
ps: wasn't meant to hurt your ego, buddy ;-)
@@jbkltc4469 JB weld?
For me a pressfit BB frame is still a no thanks.
Press fit bb is ghetto
For racing its perfect. You can roadside BB change with a rock and a screw driver. For quick pitstops and 1 less step during frame manufacturing it's the ticket
There are no bikes in the ghetto, they've all been stolen. Silly boy.
It creaks because its pressfit. Just avoid frame manufacturers who still use this system over the reliable threaded bbs.
Everything has problems, just different problems.
All bearings are pressfit
by that logic you need a Alu frame, as threaded insert will have same issue. So best solution is Alu everything, made to spec, with great tolerances, or carbon frame with press fit, made to spec, with great tolerances.
As temps lower rapidly the insert shrinks, while carbon shrinks less, so shrinking and expanding, over and over, eventually it will get loose. Just as Hambini has been telling.
@@georgeserhard4326 anyone who says they hate pressfit, never had to deal with cup and cone BBs!
Trip hazard 😂