Measuring the 80mm Chinese shell mill inserts height
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- čas přidán 21. 08. 2024
- Last video I tested this 80mm Chinese face mill on the old lathe. It was good fun, and it worked a whole lot better then using my fly-cutter. But I neglected to check if all 6 inserts were helping out with the cut. So lets take some measurements, and have a close look at the cheap inserts that came with the mill. And satisfy all those comments and questions.
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Thanks for taking the time to do all this testing. Saves me a whole lot of experimentation to prove what I already suspected about the one I bought. I guess you get what you pay for. I'm beginning to think that these milling heads were specifically designed just to get us to buy more replacement inserts. I personally get a better finish by using a big 4 flute TiAlN carbide end mill. When I finally get my mill up and running, I'm going to try to perfect a fly cutter, so all of these multi-insert heads can go where they belong.
Nice editing on the sound. Lol
Oh boy you should get a surface grinder too, next year's goal hopefully. You will never tire of taking apart your banggood stuff and re-grinding it.
I think a tool and cutter grinder might be more useful. But I probably will have t settle for a drill bit grinder :)
I think you are doing a great job, and making great videos! Most of us love your humor, and the fact you show the mistakes you make! Any home hobbyist that isn't a machinist in their job, is lying if they claim they don't do the same thing! I think that face mill is good to go, just need some better inserts, beats a fly cutter all to hell.
I started the channel to learn a bit about operating the lathe I bought. And showing my mistakes is probably the best way to get good feedback. I'm still a beginner but I'm slowly getting better. I should be good enough to get back to the projects for witch I bough the lathe :)
Before I got my little Grizzly milling machine I did some really simply milling with my South Bend lathe. I had similar results to what you have shown in this video.
I like that grizzly machine you have. Looks a lot like the machine I'm saving up for :)
It’s good enough for the price imo. You could buy an old working Bridgeport for the cost of some new high end shell mills.
I agree.
These M grade inserts have a Tolerance range of .002" - .005" so it seems like they are within tolerance.
Very interesting. As both the pockets or mount points and the inserts have manufacturing tolerance, maybe one could swap them around until the deviations cancel out more or less. After all, that's what they do in many industrial processes as well: manufacture something, accepting certain tolerance, then sort into statistical bins afterwards (LEDs, MOSFETs etc.)
PS. I bought a similiar cutter today, just a 4 face 50mm one with MT3 shaft. It cost 26 EUR incl. shipping. I wonder how they do that. (I used the links reserverd for members of the cult, hope that helps toward the mill..)
interesting idea. The tolerance on those inserts is about 0.1mm but I never bothered to check the size difference between the inserts.
@@Rolingmetal well, that's probably a couple orders of magnitude above the inserts tolerance, then. Still, there are the screws to consider, which were possibly sourced from the cheapest supplier they could find..
You might want to get a new VFD, A Delta 2hp (1.5kw 230v single phase to 3 phase) VFD015M21A can be purchased for
Thanks for sharing. Did you notice how good the finish looked when you had changed the pulley configuration. Maybe it is a rigidity issue and a slower speed and feed limits some of the end play. Maybe one more go at it slow and steady? Although not ideal for carbide, it looked good for that brief moment you did cut.
You are not really taking a big enough cut with that tool (typically one would bury the nose radius, but you lathe may complain) the inserts have chipped because of vibration (they have been bouncing onto the front edge).
I tried 0.8mm in the previous video but that was about the max the lathe could handle
Hi again, still love your vids and humor. You an me are using eqitment vit not the best posebilletyes, play in bearings and cheep bangood stuff. But when something is fleksing, f.eks bearingplay or a long stickout, the tool cant get underneeth steel and will just rub the chjps of, rather than cutting it. then the best way is to overdoe the feedrate and cut, and it will be better surface, but ven you ar closing in on the right size end take light cuts the surface vil get wors again, just have to live with it. I have a good strong mill at home, and do some lathe work also in it. I just turn the millinghead 90 deg and put a 3 jav chuck in the mill head.
The axial play shouldn't matter much as the cutter will be pushed back against the bearing.
You should also check the inserts on the other plane with your dial. That is on the outside diameter of the cutter.
I think this is a good test though.
It looks like you did indeed get chips stuck back on to the surface.
I wonder what you get if you put a mic on the actual inserts. Are they all the same size?
Carbide tends to give a better finish with heavier cuts but I understand your lathe isn't really suitable for that.
Good test but :)
Happy turd year just so you know I watched it to the end.
Why 80mm? that size face mill with 6 inserts would normally be used on at least a Bridgeport sized machine, I think the general consensus is a fly cutter being the preferred option for smaller machines, although, I did find a 3 insert TPUN 40mm face mill gave good results, TPUN inserts are also available as commercial grade by many different companies.
I know it's a cheap cutter and majority of Chinese hobby equipment is really just a kit to be finished off. Have you taken everything apart and at least cleaned out the residue? Are the inserts wearing down that quick or are they moving in the holder head?
It gets rough when you're cutting it again. Check tram on the mill. Havent tried this on a horizontal, but on my VMC I run these shell mills and same inserts and they leave a perfect finish. BT40 though.
I ordered one myself after your last video, I think it will do the job good enough even if I only use just the one insert, mine is on back order is when it arrives is any ones guess, thank you for sharing this mate, Matty🇦🇺
I think it is decent and for me it certainly worked a lot better than my fly-cutter. But those inserts are a bit questionable
It would be interesting to see what "name brand" inserts would do in the chinese holder?
Thanks for showing us this, i know now not to buy such a cutter. 0.08 deviation is way to much for getting a good finish. Also the inserts seem to be made of cheese.
Now if you were cutting hastelloy or inconel or something like that ... but mild steel should be nothing for decent inserts.
There is a lot of tolerance on this type of insert. about 0.1mm that might also play a role. I think the facemill is pretty decent and word a lot faster than the fly-cutter.
Happy turdyear ;p I see 2 obvious problems . ... the spindle 'floating' , and the cross slide not being square to the spindle . The cutter shouldn't cut on the end of it's travel, if the cross slide & milling cutters were square to each other - much the same as a milling machine that is out of tram ! Could you try this setup on the Chinese lathe ?
Another thing you could check is the face of each cutting position with the inserts removed , which might be another clue to look into . Good luck , & enjoy your turdday !
"V"
why should the cutter not cut if the head is out of tram?
it will cut but not produce a flat plane but a concave surface.
Hello Jan , look at 6:32 . . . the back side of the cut is 're cutting ' - that means the play in the spindle is allowing the cutter to float into the material , or that the cross slide is not square to the spindle. If there were enough cross travel to complete the cutting , only then would it show to be convex or concave ! Every cut that he made had a similar cut, with the END of the cutting biting deeper - the same happens when a milling cutter or fly cutter is used on a milling machine that is out of tram. . . the back side / trailing side of the cutter will 'dig in', but will leave only the slightest mark , or a cross hatching pattern if it is in tram ! With the play in the spindle , the cutter is cutting a 'moving target' - I would venture to say that the milling cutter is pushing the material toward the spindle at each of the cutter's edges , but NOT equally , so the end result is what we see as a strange finish. . . it shows accelerated wear of the cutters , as well as what looks like 'galling' of the chips into the finished surface ! ? I will say that it is better than no cutting at all ! ;) "V"
@@georgewocosky the cross slide is not supposed to be square to the spindle., all lathes are create that way to make sure facing does not create a convex surface
it is impossible to create a convex surface with a circular cutter no matter how far the spindle is out of tram
I think you may be expecting too much. Milling cutters like that are commonly mounted in substantial adapters in roller bearing nilling spindles. You have mounted it on an adapter with a smallish straight shank. Your machine is apparently a low power import lathe with (I'm guessing) an un-geared variable speed spindle.
Youre testing the face run-out over worn, utinity grade inserts that may vary somewhat due to manufacturing tolerances. The facts your face run-out is within small tenths is quite impressive.
Insert milling cutter bodies like yours are commonly validated by scanning face and radial run-out using a single insert movec from pocket to pocket in reference to the gaging diameter and face ground on the body itself.
That said, there's no reason you can't use that cutter and adaptor for taking light facing cuts as you demonstrate. Your finish appears excellent. If you were expecting shiny, don't. I don't think your present machine and tooling will support the peripheral speed necessary (maybe double what you're running now.) I suggest you just use it but don't try for significant stock removal per cut.
I had similar results milling steel with one of those on my little ChiCom milling machine , it works fine with aluminum . I think it may be a result of not enough rigidity in the machine .
I have an import facemill and it creates waves on the surface. Im not talking about the grooves but actual low spots with the groves superpositioned on the waves. I tried a vr weston whisper cut and it was flat with grooves.
rM,
I think you have a decent surface mill cutter there. I suppose the purists are skeptical but hey, you’r not building a space shuttle here. It will have its lathe uses but I imagine the tool will be best applied when you get your mill.
I enjoyed your video, as always.
I agree but those inserts are definitely a bit questionable
i have the same face mill ,you should run this on a mill at around 1600 rpm and above.also if you are worried about the difference in height of the inserts,why not shimm them.?
that's 4 times the speed the online calculator came up with.
@@Rolingmetal check out cnc using carbide.with coolant .
coolant would just ruin my wooden work bench :)
@@Rolingmetal i think you said ,you are going to buy a mill.warning?don't buy a chinese mini mill.you will be sorry.just my opinion of course.
Yep. I switched on advertising on my channel back in December and I am saving up those earnings to buy a little milling machine. The original plan was the cheapest mini mill but I've already switched to a more substantial machine. Still Chinese, but I'm keeping my eyes peeled for something nice, small and vintage.
But there is no rush and I haven been spoiled with high end tools, so I'm sure I'll have some fun with whatever I end up buying.
Somewhere jn the VFD parameters is a modulation frequency setting usually 4000, 8000 or 16000 (4kHz, 8kHz ,16kHz) the default will be 4kHz , if you have a modern motor with good insulation try setting the modulation to the max (16kHz) it will make it run a whole lot quieter!
Not this one. It's old tech (1987), it won't run any faster
Are the inserts inconsistent or their pockets? If the inserts, could they be installed smallest to largest and would that produce a better cut?
looks to me as if those inserts are dragging! thats what that smeer tells me. poppy
you have WAY too much play in the spindle... the leading edge of the insert is causing the spindle to defect and it chewing up the edge of the insert. do you know anybody with the ability to spray weld like ABOM does.. perhaps have them spray weld build your spindle OD up to fit the bearings.. or even.. have them spray weld up the bronze bearing IDs to tighten the spindle clearance.. i used to have a Sioux brand molten Lead spray gun for applying lead as car autobody filler to large surfaces. a friend borrowed it and then left it in a bucket that got rained in when his roof leaked. that could have perhaps been used to spray in a layer of babbit while your bearing was spinning in a fixture..
you may want to get some automotive engine belt idler and tensioner wheels to create a belt polisher.. so you can polish your spindle to a mirror finish.. holding it between centers.. then doing something about the bronze spindle bearings. if you have to SLIT one side.. and file the bearing cap face or use some of the hard to get tapered shim stock to squeeze it down on the spindle.
If I set them any tighter there is not enough play for a little heat expansion.
by the way the hournals on these bearings are tapered and so are the bronze bearings.
wow that is a very good this milling head but you have it mounth in the milling machine or in the lathe? the good tools make good pieces bye
15:35 No. You dont!!!. I know this video is not new, but... The stone is for little inperfections and a precise set. You have to use a file first for that kind of high spots. Hey, is not my intention to be rude, I just trying to help here. Is just my way. I wish this help you. Greetings.
I know it would be a hassle. But could the inserts be shimmed with shim stock?
materiaal doet veel, bij sommige soorten staal is het haast onmogelijk om een goede finish te krijgen
wat harder spul zal waarschijnlijk een beter beeld geven
de inserts zijn bepaaldelijk geen topkwaliteit
er wordt meer gewreven dan gesneden
de maatafwijkingen zijn ook aan de erg grote kant
je zou de inserts even aan de bovenkant kunnen polijsten met je diamantje zodat ze scherper worden
Are the seats cut correctly? Really asking if it would work properly with decent inserts ?
They looked ok but soon I will be trying out some better inserts.
flycutters do keep the KISS RULE. poppy
Those inserts have a 1/32" radius. Are you taking cuts that deep?
I took 0.3mm cuts in this video. Not enough I guess
Hello from Norway. Very good . Interesting. I have bought three different type/size of those. I will go out to my shop and check mine. Keep up doing videos . Carl
Did you also get one of those that uses round inserts? I wonder if that one can produce a better surface finish.
from what i know i think you are actually cutting too little at a time, but then again the setup isnt rigid enough to take big cuts either. But those inserts have a nose radius. And if you only take 0.3mm cuts like i think you said somewhere, youmight still be cutting with only the radius, wich results in poor surface finish. I tried this on lathe tooling with inserts as wel, less depth actually gave a bad finish, going with 1mm of cut for the pretty smal inserts gave much better finish. For the big inserts on the 20mm and up tools you can actually go with 3mm or something, but then you do need a serious lathe to not stall the thing.
Limited views on this channel but some interesting insights into endmill insert geometry
czcams.com/video/3zQpCgBD8fg/video.html
Includes suggestion of running with less inserts
I went looking after watching this and found videos for CNc machines where they discuss running an insert purposely high/low with wiper flat to give burnished finish. Not sure if Banggood facemill inserts are wiper or not?
Came across this video on face mills - I don't know if you've seen it. czcams.com/video/jwORPpWJ73Y/video.html
that part about wiper insets was interesting.
Use fly cutter,only use 1 insert
a toolmaker i worked with, used to "touch-up" all the inserts on the cutter grinder when he changed , any talk about anal. but glen did good work. poppy
If the spindle didn't have so much play , a diamond hone in a toolpost grinder would do the trick ! * But , even if all the inserts were coplanar , the amount of lost motion in the 'floating spindle' would still eat the inserts like candy - rigidity goes out the window :( At least he's able to make some chips ;p !
Yeah but that will remove the coating
You need a real mill for the test
不錯，很好！very good
That sound is so bad that it sent me instantly deaf and I think went on to also cause eye damage. Noise so bad you can SEE it!
Tough it out :) I think I edited it down to 40% I get the full load :)
Your willingness to try is impressive, but so many of your videos trying to push the limits of accuracy .. come down to the precision and rigidity of your old lathe, which sadly is always going to be poor due to its plain bushings and lightweight castings. As I recall you have always had problems even with if the taper is right, plus the spindle has some flour in its oil film... so I don't understand how you can trust anything in terms of precision. If you want high accuracy you really need to have quality roller bearings with a preload as well as much heavier castings and ways. It's time you bite the bullet and invested in a much better (mire rigid) machine (ideally 2, a lathe and also a proper mill, both with proper bearings (ideally taper roller, at the very least angular contact)
The other point is that as others have also commented, inserts come in a wide range of shapes and tip radii, large radii tips are for heavy removal and need a much stiffer and more powerful machine than you have. Those cheap Chinese cutters are great value for general machining but aren't meant for robin/Stefan grade precision and at the price asked its unreasonable to expect them to be.
If you really want to use a large diameter cutter on your light weight lathe, consider using sharper inserts, and maybe just load 2 or 3, not all 6. And take very very light cuts at higher speed. Good luck
you get what you pay for----------------------------- only its shinny lolol
ITS A JUNK CUTTER you cant make a silk purse out of a pigs ear FACE IT ITS JUNK
Considering the price I though it was decent but the inserts are certainly not great.
For me it worked a lot better than my fly-cutter and in then end that's the important bit.
i just do not like the looks of those inserts! at all!! geomitry looks BAD!!! P
that was 16 minutes of wasted time figuring out the chinese cutters are JUNK