AliExpress DIN rail industrial power indicator teardown - with schematic
Vložit
- čas přidán 10. 09. 2024
- Some cheap LED indicator modules for use inside industrial panels. The circuitry is simple, and as usual it pushes some components to their limits. If I used these in a panel at 220V upwards I'd probably add another sleeved 100K resistor externally to make them last longer. Especially if they were being used continuously.
They should work fine on 120V, albeit at a lower intensity.
If you enjoy these videos you can help support the channel with a dollar for coffee, cookies and random gadgets for disassembly at:- www.bigclive.c...
This also keeps the channel independent of CZcams's algorithm quirks, allowing it to be a bit more dangerous and naughty.
#ElectronicsCreators
Former lab technician here from a company that made such indicators back in the 1970's. All them clip cases are designed to be assembled once and disposed if they fail. Back in 1979 we experimented with all colours of LED available. We were the world's first to sell LED traffic lights. We also made panel light buzzer combinations. Customers wanted reliability as our products were used globally in cable cars, trains and busses so we had filament indicators with a 20 year lifespan and LED ones suggesting 30 years at the time. Buzzer frequency was precisely chosen not to reduce indicators lifespan avoiding any resonance. All our LED products had diodes especially chosen to have triple redundancy in reverse leakage to protect the LED's used. A 220V certified product for industry was tested at 660V for 24h. A medical product was each tested with 1000V for 24h to ensure failure was not an option. Manufacturers of the famous 1N4007 would return our money when diliveries were out of spec. So each technician could take home a box of 1000 such out of spec diodes. As per today I never managed to kill such a diode.
The days when things well made to last.... Well never have that again.
Super interesting. Thanks.
Appreciate the story! So cool to hear. Thanks :)
@@Slikx666 nah...
Dialite?
Clive, my man, you could have just pushed the clip in with the screwdriver from the front rather than trying to slide the spudger in the side and pry the clip out.
i was screaming that
I made this DIY. A simple hack I did was to put every 2 LEDs in anty-paralel. So every one is leakage protected. I also put a 100k resistor on each side, so if one fails short, the other can take over.
3:44 Me: "The clips are on the end!!!"
I learn and enjoy watching you take stuff apart. Thanks Clive!!❤
A triple LED indicator if they're all of the same color is very useful. You can use it to indicate which phases are working on a 3-phase system. In normal operation, all three lights should be on. If only one or two are on, you lost a phase or two and that's why things are going haywire. Losing a phase leads to so many oddball issues having a simple indicator showing that all 3 phases are energized is a remarkably useful utility. If you have 3 phase in your home (some places do), then installing such an indicator can help solve many issues.
In Chile these kind of indicators are required for each phase of a panel to be illuminated permanently when that panel is receiving power from the meter.
We are required to place a fuse or low value circuit breaker (up to 10a, but a 1a or 2a breaker seems appropriate) protecting those indicators. If using a breaker I usually place a lock that prevents it from being disconnected by accident.
The fuses or CB is NOT there to protect the indicator. They are there to protect the switchboard/distribution panel in case of a short circuit fault in the indicator or wiring.
The secondary function is to isolate the indicator if any service work is needed after the fuses. You wouldn't want to pull main fuses and disconnect the whole board to work on the indicator module, would you.
As you describe the application, without fuse (2A) the indicators are connected prior to any current limiting device to the full current supply potentials. The only fault limiter will be the main high current service fuses. Could be 63A... could be >800A.
The instantaneous fault current level will be far higher than the main fuse rating. Could be around 6kA to 10kA. One flash... then ash.
If a wiring fault from meter to the indicator occurs ( low current capacity wire) OR those small wires inside OR the LED board suffers short circuit the wire or indicator module will vaporise, spraying arc flame (and molten copper metal) all around the enclosure.
Replace or rebuild the whole panel including a new revenue meter. Everyone will be upset and ask WTF questions.
I see little point in CB lockoff. It will be obvious it has been manually switched off or tripped by handle position.
@@BTW... you are right, the little fuse/circuit breaker is mainly protecting the small gauge (~ 1,5 mm2) wire that’s feeding the indicators and the PCB inside.
We don’t use main fuses for residential applications around here. Instead inside the enclosure of the meter the energy providers places a 6kA or 10kA circuit breaker rated for the service.
I still think a lock around the circuit breaker that services the led indicator is useful. Mainly as a way of signaling the home owner that they should mess with that “toggle” as it does not directly control any receptacle/ useful load.
@@BTW... Maybe they use breakers that don't go in a different position depending on what turned them off. A lot of brands don't have that feature. And that feature won't prevent anyone from accidentally turning them off, removing the lock has to happen intentionally.
As stated by @BTW... do not protect the indicator. I remember once seeing a newish breaker in Ukraine that would not trip if held-up. Being born in post-comunist coutry learning on Czechoslovakian breakers from 80s 70s which would crack (become un-switchable by design) if locked ON when tripping. Modern European breakers do obviously switch off regardless, but I have seen some LVE and LAP or chinese fakes which noticeably slowed down with finger switching them on.
So I would make sure that the breakers in Chile still trip-off if locked in ON position.
Second: if human wants to switch something ON or Off then he will.
Official process UK when inspecting or repairing circuits is to lock it. That doesn't work. Your average monkey with the trovel, quick-skim, roller or a spanner just take the locks off. The only safe way is to disconnect the wires from breakers output.
locking set is like alkaline batteries instead of enelops, for NIC/Napit (your local electrical trading body) inspection whether you have right tools.
@@Zlodej5 at least reputable brands of din breakers will trip with no damage at all when held in the up position. They were designed to do so. Mitsubishi brand breakers are available in low values (2a) here.
I understand that there is no foolproof way to protect against a monkey, but at least we should make it a bit more difficult to screw up.
Thanks for the explanation about reverse current and green LEDs... I was wondering why the green indicator light I put on my printer cabinet died a slow death, and I think this may be the reason.
I actually ordered 6 sets of RED-GREEN and RED-GREEN-YELLOW in 24V variants yesterday, gonna make a panel out of them to display the position/stand of the boatlock-trafficlights in the basement, so i can see with one glance how stuff is set outside when troubleshooting.
Eventually they realized Big Clive was gradually collecting all of the parts required to construct an interocitor.
"Clear your screen, please." *wipes electrocuted hot dog steam off lens*
Ah 'This Island Earth'...
I like the really narrow one, three lights and not much room taken up. Could also reuse the housing for a more useful indicator. Thinking the larger one could have a small OLED screen with the ESP chip buried in the back housing..
However, for an ESP microcontroller it would generally not be provided for industrial control settings
@@UKsystems Nor would aliexpress indicator...
@@Zlodej5 actually a lot of the time they have the appropriate approval and the certificates are available. If you ask the seller and they do check out as being valid it would not last as long which may be a problem or may not be but the main reason my ESP microcontroller can’t be used is the lack of standard industrial control communication protocols, which for driving a screen may be a problem
@@UKsystems You would be surprised how many integrated systems have one or more Espressif microprocessors in them.
@@UKsystems What protocols do you think an ESP32 is missing? Keen to hear your thoughts...?
Perfect for modifying with some blinkies, have a whole rail filled with them all with the flashing LEDs fitted running at different frequencies (E.G. some 0.5Hz, some 1Hz, some 1.5Hz) and have yourself a high tech energy solution prop... :P
And then sell it to gullible rich people as an eco energy management system.
It's nice to see even the professionals can struggle getting things open 😂 makes me feel better.
Brute force and a pin punch can often work wonders (as well as reducing destructive potential).
The one with the large green indicator were great for power on will power present indication
They could connect two LEDs in series and two other in anti-parallel without the diode. They would light alternately and clamp the reverse voltage to a safe level to prevent the reverse current what You mentioned.
Sounds good but I don't now if you're right. Excuse my lack of knowledge.
That would work, but it would double the power dissipation in the resistor. Also, if you used it on DC, then only 1/2 the LEDs would light up.
I love indicators and meters.
These are pretty durable owing to their simplicity I've used them for many purposes, and the basic guts is very much identical to the "fuse failure" indicators on DIN Rail fuse holders ("lit when failed")The ones I've got (decade ago?) from Tomzyn have a small cap. across the LEDs to reduce flicker.
So your 'fuse fail' indicator, wired across the fuse or CB, allows voltage to the circuit that blew or tripped a CB? (being light on fuse blown)
Used in a mains voltage system, ask yourself, what could possibly go wrong.
@@BTW... These LED based indicators all have a significant series resistance (comparable to the old neon "Mains Tester" screwdrivers. They are also IEC approved. That might answer your question.
Thank you Clive.
Are they actually red, green and yellow LEDs, or are they all white ones behind the coloured lenses? It would be simpler to make them if they all used the same LEDs on the boards.
Separate colours. The red and yellow are more reliable than white LEDs.
4:38 "It's very easy to open when you know how." 5:28 after a long and unsuccessful struggle to open it gives up and tries another one.
"The cheap speaker connector" - Clive, I see you too like to live dangerously....
Those pesky stickers on the side are sometimes the only decent thing holding the halves together. As I have realised after struggling WAAAY to long to get the halves separated!
I’ve been eying these up as easy “single phase present and correctly wired” indicators, etc. for PDUs along with the V, A & f meters
I suspect our oriental friends designed the lid on the jar of my favourite piccalilli.
I haven’t managed to open it since I bought it in July, 2019.
In effect, I’m piccalilliless.
Clive, even the comments on your videos are commendable effort and simply delightful
Try a blowlamp ( and use welder's gauntlet to grab the HOT ! lid ) tip # 67 ... DAVE™🛑
@@davidfalconer8913 So you would suggest that my jar of piccalilli becomes piccallilinflamatoryness!?
@@user-ms7gt2km5f That’s very kind of you, but did you intend this comment for somebody else? I don’t deserve a sensible comment - never have! 🥳
@@davidfalconer8913 Also(🥸), I notice you have trademarked ‘DAVE’. My brother’s name is David and he quite likes ‘Dave’ (I don’t). What are the details of your offshore account so I may send you dosh for copyright infringement by my brother David, (Dave)? 👀😎🥸
I would love to see a phase control relay or timer relay (but the old fashioned one not microcontroller)
Never stabbed myself in the hand trying to get stuff like this open! :D
That means you haven't opened enough stuff.
@@tin2001 Weird how some people don't get being facetious online.
Hi clive, I am about using them in my panel for showing whether the solar inverters or the grid has power.
Do I need to fuse them seperately?
Thank you for the Video 😊
I would recommend a fuses, and on 200V upwards adding an external sleeved resistor will make them safer.
I generally find that plugging something in is a good indicator that you have power but those lights ! I'm going to hang some of those jobbies on my Xmas tree..with a multimeter for a fairy on top. Firmly mounted of course.
7:19 and I had to stop laughing waiting for the "one moment please "
It was like looking at something that you couldn't bear to see but you were compelled to watch. 😅
The diode is to protect the LEDs against reverse breakdown. The diode will drop almost all the voltage in the reverse direction so the LEDs don't see a voltage above their reverse breakdown voltage.
Light me up island man
What do the different color lights mean
You can choose their purpose.
Could be used in Three Fase + Neutral systems.. So they show Fase 1:Red, Fase 2:Green and Fase 3:Yellow. At least that's what i think the intended purpose is.
Would having some leds in reverse, protect the whole set against reverse current?
And would a capacitive dropper be more power efficient for the this application?
Inverse parallel LEDs and two resistors would have been a good option. A capacitive dropper would make the unit only suited to AC.
Resistors and a diode... So how did the RED indicator on the top right module appear to blink ON for about a second at time: 2:23 thru 2:25 ? Was it a reflection on the studio lights? Before I saw the schematics, I thought it is could be discharge of a capacitor, but there isn't any. It was just odd.
Yes, that's just a reflection. If you advance frame by frame you'll see it hits the other lights and the grey surface as well.
Probably the camera and a rolling shutter effect.
@@RFC3514 Yes thanks, I see it now. I knew that it couldn't be some odd static discharge . Thanks.
@@BigClive ... Yep I think that's the explanation of it. Reflection of the lights and camera.
Those small resistors are not rated for mains voltage.
I wouldn't be surprised if they use carbon-film resistors in these products.
You can get high voltage 1/4 watt resistors which are good for 1600v, but I suspect these will be the floor sweepings from the local resistor manufacturer that might be rated at 200v or so.
Hmm, what is the required usage of these?????
Whatever you wish an indicator for.
The most obvious application is safety indicator in any wiring closet: you don't want to waste troubleshooting time on missing input phases. It is also helpful as an initial indicator that power has been turned off before working on wiring and as a back-off light if you see them unexpectedly turn back on while working in there.
Another small signal diode, like a SMD 1n4148, connected anti parallel across the LED series string would have taken care of any reverse leakage through the 1n4007...
Will there be a European version with black, grey and brown LEDs…..
😄
The Chinese pioneered black LEDs. Or DEDs are they are more often called.
Yee, Dark emitting diodes.
@@simontay4851 Light Absorbing Diode
No, not a photodetector, or a solar panel, just a simple garden variety black hole
So all three colors always light up simultaneously? I expected them to have some sort of low-medium-high function.
Or, wait a sec. I misunderstood. So every color has its own input terminal. That means you could hook it up to a plc or similar, to use them as a low-medium-high indicator.
@@jhsevs On / Off / Fault
The question is what the colour means.
The best way things can go wrong on your channel is when something goes "bang" and you get either smoke or fire but getting all 3 is the best. Considering all the burn marks on your bench you've had that happen at least once or twice.
A bit phased to see Red Green Amber instead of the typical Red Amber Green!
More likely it's Yellow, Green, Red.
These being the Chinese insulation colours for a three phase supply.
Or maybe they go amber, amber and amber. The colour of overloaded LEDs.
Time for an after work beverage. How is the heat/humidity?
It's been pretty hot.
via the SodaStream? ;o)
Thank you, keep working.
@2:24 a brief flash of LED after you disconnected the power.
I didn't notice it at the time. It was possible the lens reflecting the work lights.
Schematic at 9:00 That diode should be connected reversed parallel to the 4 LED's, so they get no reversed voltage. Even better, two times two LED's in series, and these back to front parallel, no need for a diode, and they shine as 100 Hz if you keep the four LED's close together.
They likely weren't meant to be disassembled anyway, but I suspect that instead of prying under the retainer it might work better to push the clip in from the visible part above the retainer.
Always good.👍 👍 👍 👍
With the opening of the units, I was worried about your left hand, again :) :)
What was that flash of light at 10:14 especially on the right one?
What temperature do the resistors in series run at?
They are rather expensive for just an indicator, In Australia the 3p indicator cost way more then a 3 phase MCB
When this goes mainstream wait for the deluge from 'electricians' "You can't put different manufacturers units in a consumer unit" comments 😂
Caught one all ready 😅
ABB or Hager is the only way 😂
Juh I'm bad,
My consumer units are full of different brand gear.
It has grown like that over the years.
I don't really care as it looks almost the same.
For the ensurance safety audit it didn't matter either.
2:26 the red light on the right one flickered when disconnected from power?
Clive, I must have missed a notice about "Live" streams if posted. Industrial and cheap in the same sentence doesn't sound right... Just saying.
No streams at the moment due to high working hours. You can find the new stream channel on Twitch (bigclivedotcom).
@@BigClive Thanks Clive, been missing the live streams. Will sub the Twitch.
Would you have a look at phase protection relays? I have no idea how they work but are near for protecting motor rotation
Would they last longer if there was another diode shorting the resistor to the other rail instead of reverse biasing the LED's with the leakage current?
Thanks :)
Maaaaan, DIN rail is sooooo much cooler that what became standard in the US....
Pretty nice...decently bright too
I've installed a "aliexpress" smart energy meter. I would be very, very interested in their inner workings. And how safe they are. Would make a even better video i think. I could sent you an link to which one i mean.
Love your video's by the way, although i am an electrical engineer (ships and now machinery in food and beverage) i'm not really at home at small electronics. all be it that i do use small electronics for my model train lay-out.
I'm here for the struggle with the clips
Are these (and other devices in the same form factor) used in the equivalent of a US circuit breaker panel?
More or less, I don't know if the US breaker panel allows other things than breakers, but for DIN panels there are breakers, fuses, switches, outlets, indicator lights, buzzers, timers, relays, contactors, phase monitors, meters, sensors, surge protectors, power supplies... you can even get empty housings to build your own device.
And for the DIN rail itself, when used inside an industrial cabinet, there are even more things you can quickly attach to it instead of having to screw everything to a backplate
the LEDs look like they have been hand soldered, but that would be impossible. They just dont look very good joints and the LEDs are all over the shop. I wont be buying any to put into my mains in the house. 🤣 Interesting bit of tat 2X👍
chinese hand soldering labour is still cheaper than an automated production line, especially in the smallish big cities with an over 20% _joblessness_ rate. 😏👆
@@kittytrail In China they even assembled LEDs at home, I mean the "classic" 3 and 5 mm round LEDs, they got the (factory rejected?) tiny chips, soldered them to the legs and then placed everything in a mold into which they poured resin to make the lens-encapsulation. There was at least a video but now I can't find it because now there are many videos about how poor people assemble LED bulbs and LED strings at home or in tiny shops...
@@ruben_balea yep, reminds me of the hk sweatshops of the late '80s, with people sleeping, eating and living in cages... 😋👍
China Great Country™ 🇨🇳🐷👆
You mention ( blue LEDs ) and silicon diode ( 1N4007 ? ) leakage .... a LOT of modern UK electric kettles have a blue LED in their base " paddle " switch .... this is in series with a HV Silicon diode .. and ... a BIG PHAT ( ? ) ceramic block resistor ( 5 K Ω to 22 K Ω ! ) ... this seems to work OK ... the reverse leakage is one or two ( μA ! ) , maybe even less ? .. the LEDs seem to be OK with this TINY reverse current , but a good point to mention nevertheless ! Heh -Heh .... DAVE™🛑
1N4007 are rated for 1000V. 600V rated will do just as well.
@@BTW... Yes you are correct ! ! ... my last company used 1N4007 for EVERYTHING ! ... the tiny extra cost was to avoid stocking several voltage ratings , but more importantly to avoid putting an 1N4001 in a high voltage PCB , by accident ( disaster ? ) .... DAVE™🛑
Leakage in kettles adds another level of complication.
@@robt2151 YES ! ! ... usually a wet kitchen worktop ( GRRR ! ) ........ DAVE™🛑
Where can I get some of those Mohr Clips you mentioned? 8^) Cheers!
Interesting they didn't Muntz that as hard as they could have with no diode and the LEDs anti parallel to protect each other.
The 3 colors don't mean anything, they're just for show. They do not indicate the amount of voltage. Correct?
They're three independent indicators that are different colours for easier status identification.
Clive, I need your help!
I've had this passive ph probe from aliexpress for a long time but more recently, I bought a proper ph pen with a proper sensor after I just couldn't learn to trust that aliexpress one. Today I decided to open the Aliexpress one to see what makes it tick (hope you're proud!). What I found seems like an outright scam hah. The PH meter has two probes but one of them is connected to literally nothing while the other probe goes into a tiny coil that serves as a meter. Only the first third of the switch seems to do anything. The middle setting has only a probe leg connected to it so I guess it works via brain wifi or something. Nothing connected to the last third of the switch that reads moisture content, supposedly.
It's a green thingy with a 3 way switch and two probes that supposedly tells you the ph, light intensity and moisture content. Seems like only the light intensity part does anything but I would love for you to break one down for us so you can tell me exactly how badly I've been scammed, if at all!
Much love :)
There could have been 2 LEDs in one direction and 2 in the other. It wouldn't flash as much. Then the series diode would not have been needed.
If the voltage drops below a range 230v-210 etc do the LED's drop from Green to Orange or Red to Orange? Don't really get what you'd use them for..
It isn't a meter, each LED is to monitor the power that goes to something you want to monitor.
Ok thanks!!
I don't understand why make it with different colors if they have nothing in che pcb that control them.
Hey Clive! How's it going with the tattoo job? Hope you have some fun in between, would be great to hear some stories in some live stream after it's over.
It's going OK so far. But has been more physically demanding this year.
Why so many LEDs for each indicator?
Intensity, since one resistor can run lots of LEDs in series at the same current.
Is it fail safe ? Diode bridging, etc... What can go wrong and to what extend ... 🤔
I'd prefer at least two resistors.
If the diodes or LEDs fail short , then the resistor will still limit the current to reasonablly safe levels, but if the resistor fails short then there would be a massive over-current. A second resistor would make me feel much safer about the design.
5:20 KNIF! (Fink backwards)
Why not
Red
Amber
Green
.?
they use microscope or magnifier for .............. sir let me guess
But what the heck are they meant for? If all three colors light up, what information are we to glean from them?
The triple LED modules allow each LED to light individually.Clive just wired them all together to test them.
@@oldarchillies163 :: Yes, but seeing red, yellow, and green, I'm expecting their usual (bad, fair, good) meanings. Are these just three phases, or something else? I don't have DIN rails in the US, and can't imagine what three conditions such a module would show me.
@@jeepien No, not phases. Just individual LEDs which can be used to indicate anything you like. They do not even have to be AC power, BigClive just tested them with line power because that was convenient for him. When I was building systems, I used red for power, yellow for data OK, and green for PLC watchdog OK at the maintenance remote office so the users did not have to go all the way to the closet to see if the system was running. Could have been for anything though.
@@oldarchillies163 Hmm. Sounds like a solution in search of a problem.
@@jeepien Actually useful for indicating status of multiple systems at a glance. But YMMV of course. All good.
How about AvE Mr Bigclive hope he gets well soon
I think he's just been very busy.
8:10
redundancy in what way?
Modern gallium nitride LEDs often fail short circuit.
Not a capacitive dropper??
I thought you were going to break out the vise of knowledge, give how it lets you easily transition from careful disassembly to unreasonable force.
The SMD resistors don't look big enough for the voltage across them. For an application like this, (240 VACrms) they should be at least 1206 size.
I didn't see any SMD resistors. I saw SMD LEDs on the PCB and through-hole resistors & diodes hanging free.
I think the RMS voltage of a half rectified sineave is 1/2 of the 240V .... So I think the resistor only sees about 110V RMS, and the power dissipation will therefore be 110^2/100k ~ 0.12 W
No, the RMS is the quare root of the mean of the square. So half wave rectification only reduces the RMS voltage by sqrt(2).
@@petermichaelgreen Yes, you're right.
... " they're sooo tight, and when you leave it up slightly, it jams the next one..." Sounds like a breeding party.
AliExpress Fidget Clippies.
Not very imaginative, are they
I'm not sure you'd want them to get _imaginative._ 🤪
@@RFC3514 perhaps not
Can't see the point of these. If you really need to see if power is present, couldn't you just use neons?
These are an alternative to neon indicators.
Horrible solder job.
Chiness proverb say, half the wave make half the cost🔅
Japanese (Japaness?) proverb say: half the wave no pay Hokusai's bills.
100k seems a little low, specially as it has a diode, 300v through it, no wonder it's bright!
If diode, why you still call it alternating current, it's just really badly modukated dc 😅
It used to be called "pulsating DC". 😊
It doesn't have 300V through it.
@@BTW... Rectified mains voltage...
@@phonotical "Rectified mains voltage..."
Have a think about that, if you can, and explain how it could be 300V DC from a single phase AC supply at half wave rect.
@@BTW... Are you fucking slow or what
Looks like a 3d printer away from a house fire..
More DIN rail crap.. It is less money that legit NEMA and UL listed designs and performs and lasts like the cheap crap it is.. I will admit, the wiring blocks are pretty useful...