I'm Replacing my Production Intercom System!!!
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- čas přidán 24. 01. 2024
- The intercom in my trailer just isn't enough for some events. It's time to replace it with something more suitable for my needs. Here's what I'm doing.
Symetrix Radius - djp.li/radius
Symetrix Prism - djp.li/prism
biamp TesiraFORTE - djp.li/tesira
Dante Intercom components - djp.li/danteintercom
Previous Dante Intercom Video - djp.li/intercomvid
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Fenix connectors all around! I luv how you've adapted this to Comms! No wonder everyone is blown away when hear this for the first time. Kudos!! 👍And hearing the traditional belt pack vs. Symetrix, it's amazingly good.
Really interesting! Thanks for sharing Doug!
That is sweet, Doug. Love when you showcase this stuff. Good deal!
Epic! We have been looking for something like this as well. Thanks for sharing your amazing information, Doug. I hope you have an amazing year of productions!
This is amazing Dough! Built something like your old setup my own but the Matrix capabilities of the Symetrix takes it to the next level. Thanks for sharing this!
Symetrix Radius is a hidden gem. I own 3 of these and use them for all kinds of projects. Very flexible. Feels a bit dated, but works amazingly well. Cheap on the used market too. UI options are also limited so I had to write custom software, but not a big deal.
The Radius I have was built in 2013, so, yeah... 10 years old. But the newer ones don't do much that this model won't. The biggest difference is the number of channels available in the matrices.
The underlying DSP engines haven't really changed in that decade. Nor do I think they need to; they've pretty much done everything that they need to do for a long time now.
Oh wow! I've been using a Symetrix DSP for years to handle splitting audio between mains and subs. I never thought of using it for intercom. Nice job!
This is so cool! We have a few of these in a theatre I manage.
Cool build, and great explanation of the sort of things that DSPs can do as a virtualized audio chain.
One critically important detail of the DIY route (for any system, not just intercom) is that while you generally get far more functionality at a lower price than out-of-the-box systems, you are also responsible for executing and supporting it yourself. There's no customer support to call for the system, and if the person that set it up moves on, then it's up to the next person to figure it out. And the more complex the system is, the harder that task gets.
So one of the key hidden values of a "standard" professional system is that standard part that ensures it's usable to more people. And that is a value best not ignored when someone researches their options & needs.
That said, I have never seen a production system that didn't have some level of DIY. Sometimes it's just a clever config setting somewhere or a creative GPI wire. Other times it's complete home made hardware systems.
Really even the basics of how parts of an overall production system are connected are already "custom" work. No 2 trucks or flypacks are identical, or static over time.
And the ability to choose the most suitable solution for any given project scope & budget is what makes a great engineer.
Supporting something like this doesn't scare me. I designed it so I know how it works. But once it's setup and working, beyond making sure that Dante is working, not much troubleshooting should be necessary.
@@djp_video I totally understand, and agree with that school of thought much of the time. I certainly deploy a lot of DIYv in the systems I use also.
BUT, it is important to keep in mind for systems that may be in place long after the designers/builders are gone. There is a huge huge difference in systems we build exclusively for ourselves, and systems we build for others to use (even if not right away). It's really more of a business than an engineering question at that point, but still worth keeping in mind for the engineers too.
This is really really cool. I wasn't aware of devices like those exist! Thanks! :)
Very cool! I didn't know hardware like that existed.
The automatic audio ducking is REALLY cool. That would be super useful in a bigger production.
Looks like a project right there. I’ve been watching your vlan content. I’m doing that and directly connecting two computers with 2.5gb network adapters using ndi on that connection. Thank you for your help.
Very informative 👏
Thanks for your great video
I really like what you've done here and I'll probably do the same thing using a spare qsys core 510i I have laying around.
You're lucky to have such a nice piece of gear just 'laying around.' :)
Well that's some new ebay alerts created! Thanks for sharing the capabilities of these devices.
This is exactly the setup we have been using since 2021! We have a Prism 12x12 as the dsp for our sanctuary audio system that doubles as our intercom engine. We have 2 party lines and I made a control panel in composer that lets us adjust individual beltpack audio, call individual beltpacks, EQ, Ducking, etc from a PC in our control room on the fly. Only have 6 beltpacks but we have been super happy with the audio quality, compatibility with consumer headsets, little quality of life features like program ducking and automixing the beltpacks.
It's great, isn't it! I've just dipped my toe into the control panel portion of it so far. And haven't even started to touch the Intelligent Module functionality. That's going to be amazing once I get into it.
Love this. Been trying to nerd snipe someone into writing the code (I've got a structure/process figured out) to use arbitrary control panels and an arbitrary DSP for matrix intercom 😅
Great setup Doug! You can get 16 mix bus outs from the X32, an additional 6 on the auxes if you can utilize LR, Mono, matrices or direct outs for those. Another kinda cool trick is you can use a DN4816-O to get an additional 16 outputs from ultranet that are independently routable. You are pretty limited by the 16 mix busses though so the extra outs are only useful if you're routing channel direct outs. Pretty capable for the price but not as convenient as the AVIO adapters.
The number of busses is a problem, but the bigger problem is the awkward way that it routes signals internally. You can't just arbitrarily assign any source to any input, or any output signal to any output connector, even with the user assigned busses. To get the my setup to work at all I had to do some really strange things to get signals from one bus to another to get it to where it needed to go. And then I ran out of ways to route signals before I ran out of inputs. Adding one of their external stage or other I/O boxes wouldn't have helped because the internal routing was already maxxed out.
First of all, thanks a lot for all the info! Your channel is amazing!
I have a big question and I think you're the person to guide me... My computer doesn't have Thunderbolt 3 and I'm looking to clean my colour feed coming out from my laptop, that actually allows 4K output, to send my color grading signal (DaVinci Resolve) to a 4K monitor :
- Does the "Micro Converter BiDirectional SDI/HDMI 12G" help me to clean my colour feed from my GPU HDMI computer output to my monitor? Like the UltraStudio... As I said, my laptop doesn't have Thunderbolt and I'm just looking for an option, not that expensive, to send a better signal to my monitor.
Thanks a lot in advance.
You should take a peek at Q-SYS as another option for this style of DSP. Very powerful and very compact.
I'm roughly familiar with it. It's well outside my budget, though.
Beside DIY intercoms: What are those devices generally used for? Fixed install audio systems like in city halls, huge conference rooms?
The most common uses are for conference rooms and things like that... both big rooms in convention centers as well as in offices. But they're also used in theaters, churches, civic centers, etc. for permanently installed audio systems.
Great DSP & super clean Diagram layout for routing!!! Well done!! ! We like to use BiAmp Dante Vt ( & similar) for our installations ... mainly conferencing & presentation spaces) . Did you consider BiAmp while shopping for upgrade on Dante enabled DSP?
I have a TesiraForte as well. I started with that. But I needed more than the 32x32 available channels.
DSPs... damn it Doug. This is too cool. Me wants!
How does Mix Minus work in this setup or do you not use that?
I have matrix mixers there that actually do create mix minus feeds. Technically they're just alternate mixes with certain sources turned off.
Because I personally don't mix minus for intercom almost ever, those mixes run through an output routing matrix to reduce the total number of required output channels before going out to the Dante bus. But the capability of mix minus was included in the design from the beginning.
Hi Doug, love your videos. This solution is exactly what I had been dreaming of, but didnt know was possible. Among other things, I’m a TD for a high school theatre program. Re-designed an A/V system centered around Dante, utilizing many ebay finds, as cash is not so readily available. Would you be willing to share/ sell the config file you created for this? I’m comfortable tweaking and modifying, but I feel creating ground up may be a bit daunting. Appreciate all your tips and tricks!
I'll consider it after I've had a chance to use it for a few events to really make sure it's working well. Right now I'm absolutely sure it's going to require quite a bit of tweaking.
intercom using a dsp like this has been a dream of mine. this is good, but there are areas of focus ive been wanting to implement to make intercom even better. Ive been toying with xiph’s RNNoise and its AMAZING on intercom, it really helps reduce all the non-voice noise and hiss. the 2nd thing ive been wanting to implement is a form of Automatic EQ for the headsets since its common to mix and match different brand headsets they can all sound so different
Cedar's DNS is the ultimate when it comes to background noise reduction. And they support Dante. But it is expensive.
Super cool. Does that other brand you tried before also do AEC?
Depends on the model. But yes, some of them do.
@doug how do the mobile beltpacks work when you have a long ethernet cord trailing to them? Does that inherently limit the operator's mobility?
Certainly no more than any other wired intercom system. But better than some like Clear-Com or RTS where you often daisy chain from one pack to the next, leaving you with two cables rather than one.
For anyone that needs to be mobile, I use my Hollyland Solidcom M-1 or another solution and integrate it into the rest of my comms using Dante.
Very informative. Similar to QSC Q-Sys DSP.
...but more affordable :)
Nifty
What interface device do you use to integrating with clearcom style comms?
I can get away with this one from AV LifeSavers, as I can get away without nulling capability: avlifesavers.com/ccint.htm
For most people I'd recommend this one: studio-tech.com/products/m545dc/
I see that your stance on Companion has softened considerably, is it working better for you now?
A little. Since they added some better error handling in the core product it isn't as easy for a module to crash it. But I still don't connect it to my ATEM when I'm working for a paying client. It still does crash. I can't leave it running overnight in my trailer, for example, or I can guarantee that it won't still be running the next day. Some of the modules (*cough hyperdeck*) still aren't very reliable.
Did you consider building this on Q-SYS?
I don’t have the budget for that
Let Dante do your routing. Greatly simplifies your site config and gives you more flexibility
Dante can't do what I need to do. Dante can't mix sources. Most Dante beltpacks only support 2 output flows. I need more outputs in my internal matrix than there are Dante inputs to handle so it has to be routed internally. Plus there are 12 analog inputs and other various sources I need to be able to route. Dante also takes too long to reroute to be able to get away with changing Dante routing to temporarily switch a beltpack from PL 1 to PL 2, for example. And changing routing isn't possible from most software, including Companion (unless you use Dante Domain Manager, which is kind of a dumpster fire.)
Dante is amazing, and I love it, but it is not suited to what I'm doing by a long shot.
The output flows limit is mostly irrelevant here because you are going through the DSP. Fast switching needs can be done with ARC Web. My original point is to avoid backing into a corner that is a single matrix module, limited by what you program into the site config file. In contrast, Dante is a matrix router expanded just by plugging in another device. I think you’ll find you’ll have to open Composer to make adjustments for every show. With input/output names like PL1-Ch1, PL1-Ch2, etc you would have the flexibility to manage and understand most show-specific config within Dante Controller. I very much like what you’ve done here and will adopt some ideas from here into my Composer site configs.
Personally I wouldn’t trust requiring Companion for something as vital as comms. Better to have a hardware Dante box with a key to talk to each talent PL than hope Companion doesn’t crash when re-routing a station to talent.
As I'm sure you're well aware, converting an audio distribution system to Dante means handing over control of your system to an IT network administrator, or alternately, becoming one yourself. While that's not a proposition I'd find palatable, I can definitely see its appeal over a Behringer X32. Personally, I prefer MADI for digital audio distribution, as it's a reliable, uncompressed point-to-point system not subject to network traffic jams.
Every part of broadcast & audio world is heading towards IP solutions. It will be a difficult journey but it'll be worth it. I know, IP networks can be fragie but I'm pretty sure that the market will react. For example I'm a software developer who broadcast as a hobby for several years. I'm an IP solutions enthusiast because it's bringing so much of simplicity. And I'm trying to focus on networking and broadcast world because I believe that this position will be very necessary on the market.
@@BuriTechVids - I know, pretty soon I expect IP solutions providers to move to AI-mediated client management systems. Good luck in that world.
I was using Dante with my X32 too. I'm quite comfortable in the networking world too. I've never had any issues with dropouts or poor quality with Dante... and configuring my switches to work with it reliably hasn't been hard-- enable IGMP snooping, and boost the QOS priority for my Dante VLAN (or keep it on its own network, which is the preferred solution), and I'm done. Dante really shouldn't be mixed with other LAN traffic. But I haven't had any issues when I've had to.
MADI is point-to-point, making it unsuitable for this type of application. It's fine for moving a bunch of channels from A to B, but it isn't very helpful outside of that one application.
@@djp_video - I've seen and heard Dante in action, and yes, it's very reliable when it has the network to itself. It's just that when the scale and complexity of an audio distribution system justifies the use of Dante over point-to-point solutions, you're also at the point where it requires experience in network administration.
Nice work. 👍🏾
Let's not mention the latency!..
Is there any? We have this dsp that receives audio from our soundboard, does some room tuning and subs crossover, then distributes to the sanctuary amplifiers... all with no noticeable latency.
It's quite low. Did you notice any sync issues with this video? Most of it was sent through the device, and I didn't do anything to compensate.