DRO Part 1 - Installing the Linear Scale on my Well Index Milling Machine
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- čas přidán 8. 06. 2023
- Installing Linear Scales on my Wells Index Milling Machine
ToAuto DRO: amzn.to/42xGXjH
Pilot Point Cobalt Drill Bits: amzn.to/3P0uVfU
Be sure and check out the leveling casters used on this milling machine. They easily handled the weight of this mill and are available at a bargain price!
Heavy Duty Leveling Caster: s.vevor.com/bfQhIF
What a coincidence. I began fitting the same make scales on my own milling machine today. It’s great when a long overdue project comes together. 👏👏👍😀
Very cool!
I like the way you demonstrate construction problems, during installation, and "on the fly" solutions!!
Thanks Brad
Just installed the toauto 3 axis on my jet 13x40. Y is on the tailstock. The scales are huge. It has taken 3 weeks of varroas bracket making and guards and cable management. I ended up with the whole carriage, cross, apron and tail torn down. each mounted in the mill for flats and tapped holes. all cleaned and deburred and generally made better. The lathe is new to me. also installed one shot oiler on bed ways. I will add the cross when I figure out the clearance. Its only after/before work and every other weekend.
Love the channel. thanks for keeping me company out in the shop.
The simple magnetic scales I put on my RF30 mill were a bit smaller but not a lot. I don't think there are any made that are much smaller. With that being said, with today's technologies I suspect they could make them MUCM smaller. The magnetic scales are MUCH smaller but the reader head is still fairly large. The rails are about 1/8" x 5/8". Imagine a reader 1/4" x 1". I could have stuck the scale under my x axis table. I can't imagine installing any DRO on a lathe. That would be a huge challenge.
@@WinkysWorkshop I have a ditron on my mill with magnetic scales. they are about a 1/4" thick. The glass from toauto are about 1.33". Cross will likely get a magnetic scale at some point. I seen someone put the scale inside the cross.
As far as install. they need to come apart sometimes for cleaning anyway. Just do it. I have saved so much time in setups and scrap already.
Good progress. Well done. Mounting DRO's to old machines is a challenge due to the machine not having been designed with technology which did not exist at the time.
Very true. Thanks
Hello Winky, good job, looking forward to part 2, cheers from me 😷👍👍👍
Thanks 👍 I suspect I'll have a lot to learn on the DRO.
Good one Mark, combining the cover and mount worked out nicely
ATB....
Thanks, I think it also made the installation much easier.
I like how you did the mounting, very subdued and stock looking. A very interesting video; I look forward to your Friday postings!
Thanks 👍 Mounting to the aluminum channel adds a lot of flexibility when mounting to the mill.
Way to handle the install. The brackets they send with the DRO always fit some other machine. I installed a toauto at one time and it works great. When you check it make sure your indicator is square to the travel or the reading will be off a thousandth or so. Thanks for the video keep on keeping on.
>>The brackets they send with the DRO always fit some other machine - Thats a perfect way to say it
Mr Winky, I have installed DROs on both the mill and two lathes, once you start to trust them they are great, if you have not had DROs before it takes a while to realise how accurate they are 👴🏻👍
I've had several very cheap ones and they were dead on accurate. This one will take some time to learn. It's good to get away from batteries :o)
Great video Mark. If that was me I would have plugged in the display as soon as I had fitted the first scale. No only to check it works but also to have seen what the display looks like and to encourage me to battle on with the other two. Just hope it all works fine. Fingers crossed. Yee Hah. I like it. 😁 Regards from Australia.
Haha... That's what several other have said. Test before you install. It worked out. I plugged in the display and it works perfect.... or at least so far. I have not tested the full travel or accuracy yet. It's a very nice display!
I bought a toauto dro last year and it's still in the box,lol gotta get it installed your video has give me the motivation, lol 😂. Your welcome to come over see the install. Great video winky, thanks.
Thats great, you'll love it. Where you located?
@@WinkysWorkshop Whitesburg ky..
@@kentuckytrapper780 I'll be right over! I'm kidding. You are over 3 hrs away but thanks for the invite!
@@WinkysWorkshop welcome anytime my friend..
That would take me about a year to do, good work.
Thanks! It took me a lot longer to do than I anticipated, about 2 day total. The video makes is look quick.
Good job well explained. I like the way you do it one step at the time figuring it out as you go. Prints are useless and a waste of time until the third
prototype is finished. 👍👍👍
Prints are good for some things but this is sort of a "invent as you go" installation. There are tons of different ways to install DRO scales. I think using thick aluminum channel provides a lot of options. Mounting the scale to the channel instead of the mill makes mounting to the mill easier. The mounting holes are not dictated by the scale.
Encoder head, would be what I would call the scale reader.
The difference with expensive DRO's and these affordable imports, the expensive ones give you lots of mounting material. Typically they give you a solid 3/8" by 1-3/4 bar of aluminum with all the holes for mounting the scale body to it, as well the mounting holes for drilling into the machine's castings. They sometimes have leveling jack screws on either side of the machine mounting holes so you can level them along the length. But I still found I had to FAB the plate between the Encoder holes and machine reference.
So now I would guess you will put power feed on the knee, cross and lateral axis. I've done that on my Model 645, and all three are very handy.
As for the quill, a DRO is handy for when drilling, or counter sinking. But yes, using the knee is a stiffer way to do machining.
Also, I purchased a separate DRO for just the knee axis, but never installed it as the machine base has a taper from the floor up, and I just never took the time to design the install.
I'll add add a power feed to the X axis for sure but probably nothing else. I may eventually get tired of cranking on the knee to change end mills and add some power. A quill DRO might be nice but I'll probably never do it. The mill has a power down feed with an automatic stop to disengage although its a pain to set up. For most things I could get close enough but getting s depth within .050" would be hard to do. It's probably repeatable just hard to set up. Most drilling will be done on my drill press anyway. As for the more expensive DROs, its hard to say if it's worth the extra money. I suspect the cheaper ones are just as accurate and I think setting the parallelism to within a few thousands is obsessive. Unless there is something internal to the scales that goes wonky with slight side movement the amount of error this creates is very minimal. If I did the math right 1/10" out of parallel over 20" equates to an error of .0005".
Another excellent and enjoyable video
Thanks again!
So far so good well done look forward to the next one.👍👍👍
Glad you enjoyed it, thanks
Thanks for sharing, I always get great ideas from watching your videos!
Thanks, and thanks for watching!
Congratulations on 40k + subscribers Mark! Another fun video, thanks.
Thanks! Yep 40k is a bunch!
Nice install! As I was talking at you during this installation on my monitor on differences in what you were doing, and what I went thru to set up my Lagun, making sure it was absolutely dialed in up and down, and in and out within I think it was 0.005 throughout the full travel (after driving the table out past the end of the scale, and crashing the reader head, and having to replace the X axis...... it was a "learning experience" ..... possibly character building), I realized, your scale is stationary and your reader head moves with the table. My setup is the reader head is stationary, and the scale moves. That way the cable isn't flexing and stressing during table movement. All the best Winky!
My reader head is stationary on X and Z but the scale is stationary on Y. This was a matter of convenience while mounting the scales but yes, it is nice if the wires don't move. At this point I haven't installed the display but I will minimize the wire flex at that point and possibly shorten the wires. Currently they are about 6 feet. the scale is about 2 inches short on my Z axis (the knee). At the end of the scale travel my collet is about 1" from the table. This is an area I will never need to be. When I install a mill and use a vice. I suppose clamping to the table I will get close but probably not an issue. After making this determination I realized I might tilt the head at some point and run into a problem. I'll need to extend the quill a little. Maybe I'll buy a new scale but probably not.
Very well done 👏
Thank you! Cheers!
Nicely done, Mark. Looks like you had fun doing the install.
It was an interesting challenge. Thanks!
going to make the mill way better .. you will learn it pretty fast , enjoyed Mark !
I agree, thanks
Hi Mark, this is an elegant solution. I'm about to fit a magnetic scale DRO to something much more mundane than your piece of machinery art form. I'm having yet another 'design' think as your approach might give me a more compact installation. I would like to retain the X axis power feed end stops, the ability to set hard stops for manual use and of course not to cover up oil points, all of which present various interesting challenges. The oil port challenge I'm dealing with by adding a one shot oil system at the same time. The table hard stops may have to be sacrificed but I do want to retain the power feed limit switches. The idea I have had with those is to split them from being centre mounted to having one at each end of the table. Like others below I'm aiming for having fixed read heads. It's all proving quite a tricky packaging problem! The Z axis hand crank on my machine is also exhausting and I intend putting a PF on it as well. In the meantime maybe an adapter and a cordless drill.
I covered up an oil point on the front. I can deal with it but it's not ideal. In hindsight I could have found a way to make it work... I might address this in the future. As for the table stop.... I will find a way to get it back. I used the one on my other mill a lot. My Y axis has the reader head moving but it wont be an issue.
studio.czcams.com/users/playlistPLSstDnpSit0DiTyqEYz8kh0j0yXNDjZxI/edit not sure this will help, but i shot several short clips how I modified my scales that came on a mill purchase a couple years back. hope this helps?czcams.com/video/iB8jKO3TbaE/video.html
@@bearsrodshop7067 The link didn't work.
Mark, should be in a Players List on DROs.
Mark, try this link. Not flimed well, but how I came up with a means to oil the X travel czcams.com/video/iB8jKO3TbaE/video.html
Nice upgrade to a now new mill. You wouldnt be interested in a 20" delta drill press with power feed.?? Or a Federal planer with about 12" x 36 table. It has to cutter heads side and top clapper boxes. Im to badly disabled to restore them now. Plane shattered when pain took my kobility. Bed bounds not fun.
Sorry to hear about the disability, I'm sure that is not fun, but not really interest
I am in the same situation as you are. Sometimes I can still do somethings but most of the time I am bed bound also. I finally realized my machining days are over and I just sold most of my equipment. I saved my basic measuring tools and cutters as I have access to friends machinery. I wish you luck and keep going.
Another point too, wonder how long it will be before you fit some power feed to the knee ❓that’s a lot of handle winding for full movement 😁. If the hand wheel comes off easily, make an adaptor that fits your drill for rapid movement. Then pop the handle back on for fine adjustment. Regards
Hell yeah... I had to stop half way through and take a break when testing the travel. Fortunately I usually move it an inch or two! The first power feed will be X
Mark,
Ive installed 3 axis dro's and scales on 3 or my own machines, just a suggestion due to your space limitation on your x axis....instead of mounting the scale with the reader in the vertical position (ie: down) mount it horizontally so the reader is nearest the operator....the scale mechanism is rectangular and allows for this type of mounting.....still use your cover piece to shield it from contamination.....the extra room you should get should be sufficient to mount your travel limit blocks that you were worried about and were going to modify....just saying...
Don
I actually thought about doing that and in hindsight it might have been the best option. The reason I did not is that it would extend out about 1/3rd further. Even with the current setup I have some concern about accidentally bending the channel with a heavy block of steel on the table. Adding additional depth would make it flex or bend easier. I need to think about this more. I also covered up an oil port for the X axis ways. I can still put oil on the ways with a brush but it would be nice if I had access to it. I might move the scale out from the table and put an offset in the reader head bracket. I suspect this would give me enough clearance for the table stop. I got the oil port issue figured out now but I still need to remove the cover to fix it.
Thanks for the input!
@@WinkysWorkshop Mark,
I have one of each on my 2 mills, one vertical one horiz....a horiz mount would protect your scale channel by your 1/4 channel and should be plenty strong enuf to protect the scale and the reader, Ive never had any concerns or issues with mine that way and its substantially bigger than yours,( a 10x52 3hp Alliant knee mill)....heck my 12 in Bridgeport rotary table alone weighs 100 + lbs alone and I hang it on the 10 in bed all the time...like I said NO issues.......mounting that horiz on yours should be just fine....just sayin...😃
Don
@@donteeple6124 You're probably right. Especially since I'm the only person using this machine.
So I was looking at how to put a scale on my W-I 645 mill knee, which does not have the same flange to mount the scale on. And it has one shot oiler tubes on both sides, near the sliding way. The sides of its knee are close to the side parallel wise to the main stand of the mill.
And I thought if I were to nod or tilt my head, similar to yours, that you could raise the table much higher. But if that happens, you could just buy the longer scale. In all the years I've owned my mill, I've never moved the head from vertical, and fight keeping it trammed.
I agree. I need to get the head perfectly trimmed. I'll likely use it at some point but not often.
@@WinkysWorkshop While I was buying stuff for my surface plate metrology, I got a 5" cylinder square that I use to tram the spindle body on my mill. I saw the idea on Home made tool forum, and it works super duty well. Otherwise my previous method was to put a collet into the spindle with the largest diameter straight piece of silver steel, and use a magnetic indicator holder that I could spin around.
I don't think I've seen you with a surface plate in any of your videos. So a cylinder square may not be in your future. I think you can make them, but need a surface plate and a starting square reference to zero the surface gauge and test dial indicator with to check and make the cylinder square 'perfect' which may not be needed to that level to set the milling machine spindle.
How did you check the tram on your Wong Fu type machine, and I don't think it's adjustable outside of shimming the base mount that holds the vertical round column to the base.
I know I've lost tram when running a facing mill across a surface and seeing it cut in one direction only or on the backside cutting more material off, leaving a concave 'flat' surface. But you know that's generally not an issue for what we do, as if true flat is required, a surface grinder is used.
I did get a cheap surface grinder from Harbor Freight years ago, which I've been improving for the past 30 years. Most usage is with a 5C spin index to grind hardened round stuff diameters smaller. I did repair a valve plate on an air compressor where the reed valve was leaking.
@@f.hababorbitz I was talking about the tramming the head rotational zero point. the best method I've found is to install a large end mill of fly cutter and make light cuts to the surface of metal. I'm not sure how to change the outcome if its out of tram the other direction. I never trammed the RF30 but yes, shims on the column mount it the only way.
ESCELENTE TRABAJO AMIGO .CON ESE CONTROL NUMERICO
Thanks!
Looks good . I use there glass scales they work good so how far dose your vise sick out pass the table mine stuck out as far as the scale dose so i mounted it in the rear and i also did that so i could keep the stop for my power feed . JM Also the machine turned out sweet 👍
What i did on the knee is drilled 1/2 hole and center drilled some 1/2 bolts m5 or what came with the hardware that way i could use the 1/2 bolt to set the two surfaces parallel and screw the bracket to the bolts and screw the scale to a flat bare stock . I mounted the scale to the side of the Colum. well hope you get it . JM
The back of the vise is at the back of the table although the with the table all the way forward the end mill is just passed the back edge. If I move the vise toward the column so the inner back jaw is even with the end mill I lose travel due to the vise hitting the column. So nothing is gained. It's confusing to describe but I do gain a little usable travel with the scaled mounted to the front but only a small amount. Also I like the fact that the work is more centered on the table. this is a big plus for coolant.
gives me some ideas on how to mount a dro on my Burke Millrite. I'm going to hate drilling into my machine!
I think using the aluminum channel helps minimize the needed holes.
awesome video as usual...question....what brand of band saw blade do you use for steel......i have the hardest time cutting steel on my wilton bandsaw...it is a metal/wood band saw and i know you have cut way slower for steel...it blazes right through aluminum no problem.....confused in pittsburgh
For my bandsaw I usually use Imachinist ordered on Amazon. I usually buy 14 tooth but the last blade was variable pitch 14-16 if I remember correctly. It's not very good. I just ordered a 10-14 pitch which I suspect will work much better. 14 TPI was good but a little slow.
@@WinkysWorkshop thank you sir...love your channel and projects...great stuff
@@WinkysWorkshop let us know...mine cuts aluminum like a wizard...but on steel when i change speeds on the band saw...it so slow cutting 1/8 steel
@@minskmade I always run my saw on the highest speed. At least on my saw it's within the correct speed range for steel. My saw is fairly slow cutting but in my opinion about right its size. Also, with the blade guides set-up right you can use full down pressure on wide stock. Fewer teeth per inch helps a lot with speed but it's easy to break teeth on narrow stock. I use 14 tpi but will soon try a variable pitch 10-14. I suspect it will work well
Nice Job Winky, did you allow the extra 3'' when you purchased them ?
More like 1.5" to 2". The scales are sold in actual travel so it worked well. The Knee came up about 1 inch short but that was my error. Right now the table goes to within about 1 inch of the collet which is more than good enough but I forgot the head rotates. It's conservable that I may need more travel if I tilt the head.
@@WinkysWorkshop Oh right, i was told add 3'' overall to the travel distances when i purchased mine, good they all work fine though.
@@65cj55 It's good to add a little but 3 seems a little too much. The 3 inch might apply to some systems. ToAuto is actual travel.
Nice Setup!! why you didn't place on back side of table even loosing 2 inches of movement, will be a clean install...
The table moves in relation to the column. It would have needed slides. Plus the guard is always center where the mill is cutting.
Keep posting!!!
@@rodolfocastillo8025 I'll do my best.
you may have an issue with accuracy if the rail is not parallel with the reader with in .005
Yeah, I need to check this.... It's always good to eliminate possible error. With that being said, if you do the math for a 10" long scale an alignment error of 1/10" (.100")would result in a .0005" error over 10" of travel. I'd say my scales are closer to being within .050" which would result in an error of .00025" over 10" or .0005" over 20". I'm guessing the weight of the table at one extreme and gib clearances have more create more than .002" error over 20". I'm not so good at math so feel free to correct me.
@@WinkysWorkshop no as long as you are with in .005 parallel you will be accurate
I see that most guys use slotted holes for the final adjustments with a dial indicator. Not sure how you would do that with your aluminum channel covering the scale? Are you relying on the extrusion to be nuts on and run the dial on its surface?? I do like the protection it gives and will likely do mine that way. I am thinking that a scale on the quill would be useful for drilling and depth of cut when grooving? Haven't visited with you for a while. Although I am subscribed your postings are never in my "suggested views" which never lack for plenty of garbage I never watch. Kind of lose track of my channels that way as I am not a fan of bells and whistles when I turn on the machine. You can be sure I will look up and view the rest of this series. I bought a new Grizzly G07856 (?) Horizontal and Vertical Mill a couple of years ago that had to await the finishing of my shop expansion which is now complete. So I will be installing a DRO and hopefully I can find a power knee feed but its knee is quite different from the Bridgeport clones readily available.
Cool that you got a new mill. About the DRO scale alignment. Yes it is a good idea to get them as close as possible. However, most scales can handle a fair amount of lateral misalignment (like maybe .020 or a bit more) without issue. Technically it does create an error but VERY small. If you are out .020 at one end the error is less than .0002" in 20-inches. The thickness of my channel was within .002" of being the same every where I checked it. I drilled the screw holes as close as close as possible but ended up with at least .010" movement on the ends. I simply used a hex key as a gauge between the rail and the aluminum and then tightened the rails. Even an error of .001" over 20-inches is fine with me.
@@WinkysWorkshop Thanks for the info. Enjoy!
@@douglasthompson2740 Your welcome!
Why can't we say Digital Read-out! It's not that hard. You see, the mistake is the assumption that everyone in your audience knows the jargon and the acronyms of the millions of professions and technologies we uneducated stumble across when browsing CZcams. So not knowing what a DRO is, I have to stop your otherwise nice presentation and go look it up. That in itself is not a big deal except so many people misuse acronyms it is ridiculous. All you have to do is spell it out or say it the beginning of the piece and you have covered your grammatical butt. Now that my rant is over, I confess I have just recently acquired this milling and drilling machine which also is obvious I know nothing about and trying to learn.
Good point! I never thought about it simply because I heard the term a lot. Also, I used to work for a printing company that used new acronyms daily (mostly in emails) and I got to a point where I quit investigating what they meant. At first I worried that they might be important but apparently they were not. I had a good job. I was a trouble shooter and and designed machine modifications. Sometimes it was overwhelming but I worked on my own and at my own pace.